is it financially feasible to study and practice Chinese

[Guest guest]

I teach TCM theory to beginning students in their very first semester. One

thing I always ask them is how many of them plan to stay in Santa Cruz. In

the past, half the class would raise their hands. This past semester, only 2

out of 31 students raised their hands. It seems that the word is getting

out that practicing in a saturated area is a very poor choice for students

who have large amounts of debt. While Todd's words may sound bitter, I think

we need to remember them when we are counseling students about where and how

to start a practice. I also mention to the students that many of them may

need another source of income while practicing. I have always done that, and

I still enjoy practicing 15 years after graduating. It is best to prepare

students up front for the financial realities so they can do a better job of

planning where and how they will practice. I completely agree that the

schools have not done enough in this regard.

 

- Bill

 

 

.............................................

Bill Schoenbart, L.Ac.

P.O. Box 8099

Santa Cruz, CA 95061

 

office phone: 831-335-3165

email: plantmed

.............................................

 

 

>>>Have you tried private practice in an area where there is not hundreds of

acupuncturists? It seems to me that as our profession matures, we are

getting

expanded coverage by carriers, enough to expand to cover our expanding

number of

practitioners. This of course may not be happening in areas where it is

popular to live, aka where the colleges are.>>>>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hello,

 

I lurk on this board and have felt that since I am only a second year TCM

student I was not qualified at this point to offer my opinion. However, reading

this thread has really upset me because it seems that the deck is completely

stacked against the students.

 

This is my second career, my first was that of a very capitalist money making

corporate burnout . So I feel qualified to offer my opinion on how bad this

situation really is and how unfair the school makes if for the student to get a

return on investment. I offer this opinion especially after reading Bob's dirty

little secret.

 

After so far spending 40K on my education (half way through the process) I am

still not allowed to offer my acupuncture services free to family and friends or

even potential future patients. I believe this also may include prescribing

herbal formulas.....I have spent $40,000 and I am still not qualified to offer a

free treatment or suggest an herbal formula, how wrong is that, in my opinion

very wrong.

 

Prior to getting out of school with a gigantic debt of $100,000 students

should be able to begin cultivating a beginning base of patients by offering

promotions of free treatments and selling basic herbal formulas, I mean why the

hell not? This way they can get an idea of what it is going to take to get

themselves going....

 

Bob spent 100 hours of acupuncture training...... and I have spent ummmm lets

see 5 classes of 40 hours of acupuncture classes for a total of 200 hours, 6

classes of OM classes for a total of 240 hours and 6 classes of Herbs for a

total of 240 hours......just to name a few...and I can't begin to develop a

possible patient base? Not to mention accumulate the much needed experience to

become successful.

 

These poor kids, the minute they get out of school, with no patient base and

no experience, they have to start repaying debt.....This is just not right.

 

Regards

Holly

 

 

 

Bill Schoenbart <plantmed2 wrote:

I teach TCM theory to beginning students in their very first semester.

One

thing I always ask them is how many of them plan to stay in Santa Cruz. In

the past, half the class would raise their hands. This past semester, only 2

out of 31 students raised their hands. It seems that the word is getting

out that practicing in a saturated area is a very poor choice for students

who have large amounts of debt. While Todd's words may sound bitter, I think

we need to remember them when we are counseling students about where and how

to start a practice. I also mention to the students that many of them may

need another source of income while practicing. I have always done that, and

I still enjoy practicing 15 years after graduating. It is best to prepare

students up front for the financial realities so they can do a better job of

planning where and how they will practice. I completely agree that the

schools have not done enough in this regard.

 

- Bill

 

.............................................

Bill Schoenbart, L.Ac.

P.O. Box 8099

Santa Cruz, CA 95061

 

office phone: 831-335-3165

email: plantmed

.............................................

 

>>>Have you tried private practice in an area where there is not hundreds of

acupuncturists? It seems to me that as our profession matures, we are

getting

expanded coverage by carriers, enough to expand to cover our expanding

number of

practitioners. This of course may not be happening in areas where it is

popular to live, aka where the colleges are.>>>>

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi All-

 

As a new practitioner (graduated in 2004 from NESA) I have read this

thread and related threads with great interest. While I agree with

many who have posted here that we as practitioners face significant

challenges (most importantly in my opinion, our own internal

challenges)in our quests to become financially successful while

practicing OM, I have a slightly different outlook on the prospects

for success. My feeling is that the world is wide open for those who

are now entering this field (or for those already in it for that

matter). The same reasons that make practicing OM a challenge in this

country (it's not mainstream, its relatively " young " , lack of

infrastructure, insurance/cash issues, etc etc) also offer us

practically unlimited opportunity. My feeling, which has been borne

out by my experience thus far as well as the experiences of many of my

classmates, is that, because the practice of OM is not as established

as say Biomedicine, we can create our own reality when it comes to our

practices. We are only limited by our own creativity and motivation

(or lack thereof).

 

I have classmates who: practice in gyms, in yoga studios, with MDs,

in hospitals, in integrative medicine clinics, on cruise ships, in

corporate settings, with other OM practitioners, with chiropractors,

in community acupuncture clinics and the list goes on. To me, this is

all very exciting, hopeful and inspirational.

 

Does it mean that it is going to be easy? Of course not - and it

shouldn't be easy. Are there going to be lean years, maybe, but this

is not specific to practicing OM - it is the case when one begins in

many new fields (especially when working for oneself). Do we have a

lot of debt - yep, but who doesn't these days? Interest rates are

relatively low, you can always defer, and maybe eventually we'll have

loan forgiveness programs in place.

 

Anyway, just wanted to add some positive perspective to this conversation.

 

Happy Holidays -

 

Adam Schreiber

 

 

, holly mead <flwfree wrote:

>

> Hello,

>

> I lurk on this board and have felt that since I am only a second

year TCM student I was not qualified at this point to offer my

opinion. However, reading this thread has really upset me because it

seems that the deck is completely stacked against the students.

>

> This is my second career, my first was that of a very capitalist

money making corporate burnout . So I feel qualified to offer my

opinion on how bad this situation really is and how unfair the school

makes if for the student to get a return on investment. I offer this

opinion especially after reading Bob's dirty little secret.

>

> After so far spending 40K on my education (half way through the

process) I am still not allowed to offer my acupuncture services free

to family and friends or even potential future patients. I believe

this also may include prescribing herbal formulas.....I have spent

$40,000 and I am still not qualified to offer a free treatment or

suggest an herbal formula, how wrong is that, in my opinion very wrong.

>

> Prior to getting out of school with a gigantic debt of $100,000

students should be able to begin cultivating a beginning base of

patients by offering promotions of free treatments and selling basic

herbal formulas, I mean why the hell not? This way they can get an

idea of what it is going to take to get themselves going....

>

> Bob spent 100 hours of acupuncture training...... and I have spent

ummmm lets see 5 classes of 40 hours of acupuncture classes for a

total of 200 hours, 6 classes of OM classes for a total of 240 hours

and 6 classes of Herbs for a total of 240 hours......just to name a

few...and I can't begin to develop a possible patient base? Not to

mention accumulate the much needed experience to become successful.

>

> These poor kids, the minute they get out of school, with no

patient base and no experience, they have to start repaying

debt.....This is just not right.

>

> Regards

> Holly

>

[Guest guest]

I totally agree with Adam: where there's a will, there's a way.

 

Bob

 

 

, " Adam Schreiber "

<chinesemed wrote:

>

> Hi All-

>

> As a new practitioner (graduated in 2004 from NESA) I have read this

> thread and related threads with great interest. While I agree with

> many who have posted here that we as practitioners face significant

> challenges (most importantly in my opinion, our own internal

> challenges)in our quests to become financially successful while

> practicing OM, I have a slightly different outlook on the prospects

> for success. My feeling is that the world is wide open for those who

> are now entering this field (or for those already in it for that

> matter). The same reasons that make practicing OM a challenge in this

> country (it's not mainstream, its relatively " young " , lack of

> infrastructure, insurance/cash issues, etc etc) also offer us

> practically unlimited opportunity. My feeling, which has been borne

> out by my experience thus far as well as the experiences of many of my

> classmates, is that, because the practice of OM is not as established

> as say Biomedicine, we can create our own reality when it comes to our

> practices. We are only limited by our own creativity and motivation

> (or lack thereof).

>

> I have classmates who: practice in gyms, in yoga studios, with MDs,

> in hospitals, in integrative medicine clinics, on cruise ships, in

> corporate settings, with other OM practitioners, with chiropractors,

> in community acupuncture clinics and the list goes on. To me, this is

> all very exciting, hopeful and inspirational.

>

> Does it mean that it is going to be easy? Of course not - and it

> shouldn't be easy. Are there going to be lean years, maybe, but this

> is not specific to practicing OM - it is the case when one begins in

> many new fields (especially when working for oneself). Do we have a

> lot of debt - yep, but who doesn't these days? Interest rates are

> relatively low, you can always defer, and maybe eventually we'll have

> loan forgiveness programs in place.

>

> Anyway, just wanted to add some positive perspective to this

conversation.

>

> Happy Holidays -

>

> Adam Schreiber

>

>

> , holly mead <flwfree@> wrote:

> >

> > Hello,

> >

> > I lurk on this board and have felt that since I am only a second

> year TCM student I was not qualified at this point to offer my

> opinion. However, reading this thread has really upset me because it

> seems that the deck is completely stacked against the students.

> >

> > This is my second career, my first was that of a very capitalist

> money making corporate burnout . So I feel qualified to offer my

> opinion on how bad this situation really is and how unfair the school

> makes if for the student to get a return on investment. I offer this

> opinion especially after reading Bob's dirty little secret.

> >

> > After so far spending 40K on my education (half way through the

> process) I am still not allowed to offer my acupuncture services free

> to family and friends or even potential future patients. I believe

> this also may include prescribing herbal formulas.....I have spent

> $40,000 and I am still not qualified to offer a free treatment or

> suggest an herbal formula, how wrong is that, in my opinion very wrong.

> >

> > Prior to getting out of school with a gigantic debt of $100,000

> students should be able to begin cultivating a beginning base of

> patients by offering promotions of free treatments and selling basic

> herbal formulas, I mean why the hell not? This way they can get an

> idea of what it is going to take to get themselves going....

> >

> > Bob spent 100 hours of acupuncture training...... and I have spent

> ummmm lets see 5 classes of 40 hours of acupuncture classes for a

> total of 200 hours, 6 classes of OM classes for a total of 240 hours

> and 6 classes of Herbs for a total of 240 hours......just to name a

> few...and I can't begin to develop a possible patient base? Not to

> mention accumulate the much needed experience to become successful.

> >

> > These poor kids, the minute they get out of school, with no

> patient base and no experience, they have to start repaying

> debt.....This is just not right.

> >

> > Regards

> > Holly

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Holly,

 

To be frank, I don't think a student is ready to treat patients after only

two years. We're barely ready after four years! Besides, it's against the

law and might prevent you from getting a license if somebody complains. On

the other hand, I have never heard of students who don't practice needling

each other outside of class. Regarding herbs, recommending Yin Qiao to a

friend with a cold is no big deal, but starting an herbal practice will also

get you in trouble with the licensing authorities if somebody turns you in.

 

The people who seem to successfully match your model are the massage

therapists who have a good practice and then go to acupuncture school. They

continue to practice under their massage license while in school, introduce

TCM principles to their clients, and recommend a few simple herb formulas.

When they get their licenses, they often are successful in converting many

of their clients to acupuncture.

 

- Bill

 

.............................................

Bill Schoenbart, L.Ac.

P.O. Box 8099

Santa Cruz, CA 95061

 

office phone: 831-335-3165

email: plantmed

.............................................

 

 

>>>>>Bob spent 100 hours of acupuncture training...... and I have spent

ummmm lets see 5 classes of 40 hours of acupuncture classes for a total of

200 hours, 6 classes of OM classes for a total of 240 hours and 6 classes of

Herbs for a total of 240 hours......just to name a few...and I can't begin

to develop a possible patient base? Not to mention accumulate the much

needed experience to become successful.

 

These poor kids, the minute they get out of school, with no patient base and

no experience, they have to start repaying debt.....This is just not right.

 

Regards

Holly

>>>>>>>>>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Holly and everyone,

 

I am about eight years into practice and remember being eager to start

treating people while still in school. I think we have all been there. In

this discussion you hear themes of our growing as a profession, which

includes wanting to be taken seriously by other professions. Most programs

become increasingly more demanding as they mature, and have stricter entry

requirements (at least the good ones do). We don't even uniformly require a

bachelor's and we give out master's and now doctorates. The issue of

success after graduation is shared by all professions, as is the underlying

cost of the education. My undergrad was $100,000 (family paid), where I

majored in biology. How many six figure jobs do you think were waiting for

me after graduation? So then I went on and did a master's in oceanography,

(luckily I had the sense to go to Canada where I only paid $200/month in

tuition and left that degree without debt), and still didn't meet up with

that $100K job. So now I am doing acupuncture straddling student loan debt

(about $50K), but grossing about $120-150K. So, this degree is producing

way better than the other two degrees have. Will it last? I hope so. We

all do. Am I a " success " ? By what measure? I am making it, but certainly

don't take it for granted. I still have periods where I have to cut way

back with expenditures and rethink things, but guess what? So does everyone

else in business.

 

 

 

I know you understand all of this coming from your background, but don't get

too freaked out by the dissenters on the list, even though they make some

valid points. Some are too optimistic, and some have had their heart broken

and become bitter and biased. Even if you were able to do acupuncture on

whomever while in school it would maybe only benefit those that don't move

away, and the general consensus is that most should practice away from a

school.

 

 

 

You will have to work your ass off being self-employed when you start out,

and at every point thereafter (especially if this is your only source of

income). If you are entering into the profession thinking you will be

getting a stress-free money tree, think again. When you are able to help

people it gives back beyond words, when you can't it sucks, and then there

are all the money issues of business. It has been worth it for me thus far,

but it hasn't been effortless, so we can't equate " success " with easy,

fairness or guaranteed. A book that I like other than Points for Profits is

Book Yourself Solid by Michael Port.

 

 

 

Best,

 

Sean

 

 

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of holly mead

Wednesday, December 20, 2006 1:29 PM

 

Re: Re: is it financially feasible to study and practice

Chinese

 

 

 

Hello,

 

I lurk on this board and have felt that since I am only a second year TCM

student I was not qualified at this point to offer my opinion. However,

reading this thread has really upset me because it seems that the deck is

completely stacked against the students.

 

This is my second career, my first was that of a very capitalist money

making corporate burnout . So I feel qualified to offer my opinion on how

bad this situation really is and how unfair the school makes if for the

student to get a return on investment. I offer this opinion especially after

reading Bob's dirty little secret.

 

After so far spending 40K on my education (half way through the process) I

am still not allowed to offer my acupuncture services free to family and

friends or even potential future patients. I believe this also may include

prescribing herbal formulas.....I have spent $40,000 and I am still not

qualified to offer a free treatment or suggest an herbal formula, how wrong

is that, in my opinion very wrong.

 

Prior to getting out of school with a gigantic debt of $100,000 students

should be able to begin cultivating a beginning base of patients by offering

promotions of free treatments and selling basic herbal formulas, I mean why

the hell not? This way they can get an idea of what it is going to take to

get themselves going....

 

Bob spent 100 hours of acupuncture training...... and I have spent ummmm

lets see 5 classes of 40 hours of acupuncture classes for a total of 200

hours, 6 classes of OM classes for a total of 240 hours and 6 classes of

Herbs for a total of 240 hours......just to name a few...and I can't begin

to develop a possible patient base? Not to mention accumulate the much

needed experience to become successful.

 

These poor kids, the minute they get out of school, with no patient base and

no experience, they have to start repaying debt.....This is just not right.

 

Regards

Holly

 

 

 

Bill Schoenbart <plantmed2 (AT) gmail (DOT) <plantmed2%40gmail.com> com> wrote:

I teach TCM theory to beginning students in their very first semester. One

thing I always ask them is how many of them plan to stay in Santa Cruz. In

the past, half the class would raise their hands. This past semester, only 2

out of 31 students raised their hands. It seems that the word is getting

out that practicing in a saturated area is a very poor choice for students

who have large amounts of debt. While Todd's words may sound bitter, I think

we need to remember them when we are counseling students about where and how

to start a practice. I also mention to the students that many of them may

need another source of income while practicing. I have always done that, and

I still enjoy practicing 15 years after graduating. It is best to prepare

students up front for the financial realities so they can do a better job of

planning where and how they will practice. I completely agree that the

schools have not done enough in this regard.

 

- Bill

 

.............................................

Bill Schoenbart, L.Ac.

P.O. Box 8099

Santa Cruz, CA 95061

 

office phone: 831-335-3165

email: plantmed (AT) earthlink (DOT) <plantmed%40earthlink.net> net

.............................................

 

>>>Have you tried private practice in an area where there is not hundreds of

acupuncturists? It seems to me that as our profession matures, we are

getting

expanded coverage by carriers, enough to expand to cover our expanding

number of

practitioners. This of course may not be happening in areas where it is

popular to live, aka where the colleges are.>>>>

 

 

[Guest guest]

The following is meant to be encouragement - (I reread the content

and felt I needed to say that)!@!

 

Like any professional venture - if you are going into business on

your own you need to have a plan. A concise, well-prepared,

financially sound business plan, that takes into account, your

strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats. (SWOT) You need to

consider location, competition, social demographics etc etc etc.

 

IMO 2 years before graduating you should already be well on the way

to having a completed draft for this plan. Acupuncturists are no

more prone to failure in the business world than any other

profession - look at how many start-up companies fail to make it to

the NASDAQ or even get second round funding.

 

You also need to recognize if you have the entrepeneurial spirit - or

not? Can you work 80hrs per week for 2-3 years - doing marketing and

business development and treating only a handful of patients a week.

Are you prepared to do presentation after presentation to groups of

people who are entrenched in the western medical paradigm?

 

Finally you need to have a source of finance - to support you while

you grow the business. That includes living costs and business

costs - not just for 3 months but likely 12 months - by which time

you should hope to be covering the major costs. Some people work in

another profession while they are building the business - just

realize this likely means it will take longer to develop and also it

will be harder to give up the " supporting income " .

 

You may not be in a position to build your client base before you

graduate school - but you can utilize the energy and time you have

now to hit the ground running when you get that credential.

 

Happy holidays

 

Kayte Halstead, L.Ac

Acupuncture 4 Health, Inc

 

 

 

, " Sean Doherty " <sean

wrote:

>

> Hi Holly and everyone,

>

> I am about eight years into practice and remember being eager to

start

> treating people while still in school. I think we have all been

there. In

> this discussion you hear themes of our growing as a profession,

which

> includes wanting to be taken seriously by other professions. Most

programs

> become increasingly more demanding as they mature, and have

stricter entry

> requirements (at least the good ones do). We don't even uniformly

require a

> bachelor's and we give out master's and now doctorates. The issue

of

> success after graduation is shared by all professions, as is the

underlying

> cost of the education. My undergrad was $100,000 (family paid),

where I

> majored in biology. How many six figure jobs do you think were

waiting for

> me after graduation? So then I went on and did a master's in

oceanography,

> (luckily I had the sense to go to Canada where I only paid

$200/month in

> tuition and left that degree without debt), and still didn't meet

up with

> that $100K job. So now I am doing acupuncture straddling student

loan debt

> (about $50K), but grossing about $120-150K. So, this degree is

producing

> way better than the other two degrees have. Will it last? I hope

so. We

> all do. Am I a " success " ? By what measure? I am making it, but

certainly

> don't take it for granted. I still have periods where I have to

cut way

> back with expenditures and rethink things, but guess what? So does

everyone

> else in business.

>

>

>

> I know you understand all of this coming from your background, but

don't get

> too freaked out by the dissenters on the list, even though they

make some

> valid points. Some are too optimistic, and some have had their

heart broken

> and become bitter and biased. Even if you were able to do

acupuncture on

> whomever while in school it would maybe only benefit those that

don't move

> away, and the general consensus is that most should practice away

from a

> school.

>

>

>

> You will have to work your ass off being self-employed when you

start out,

> and at every point thereafter (especially if this is your only

source of

> income). If you are entering into the profession thinking you will

be

> getting a stress-free money tree, think again. When you are able to

help

> people it gives back beyond words, when you can't it sucks, and

then there

> are all the money issues of business. It has been worth it for me

thus far,

> but it hasn't been effortless, so we can't equate " success " with

easy,

> fairness or guaranteed. A book that I like other than Points for

Profits is

> Book Yourself Solid by Michael Port.

>

>

>

> Best,

>

> Sean

>

>

>

>

>

> _____

>

>

> On Behalf Of holly mead

> Wednesday, December 20, 2006 1:29 PM

>

> Re: Re: is it financially feasible to study and

practice

> Chinese

>

>

>

> Hello,

>

> I lurk on this board and have felt that since I am only a second

year TCM

> student I was not qualified at this point to offer my opinion.

However,

> reading this thread has really upset me because it seems that the

deck is

> completely stacked against the students.

>

> This is my second career, my first was that of a very capitalist

money

> making corporate burnout . So I feel qualified to offer my opinion

on how

> bad this situation really is and how unfair the school makes if for

the

> student to get a return on investment. I offer this opinion

especially after

> reading Bob's dirty little secret.

>

> After so far spending 40K on my education (half way through the

process) I

> am still not allowed to offer my acupuncture services free to

family and

> friends or even potential future patients. I believe this also may

include

> prescribing herbal formulas.....I have spent $40,000 and I am still

not

> qualified to offer a free treatment or suggest an herbal formula,

how wrong

> is that, in my opinion very wrong.

>

> Prior to getting out of school with a gigantic debt of $100,000

students

> should be able to begin cultivating a beginning base of patients by

offering

> promotions of free treatments and selling basic herbal formulas, I

mean why

> the hell not? This way they can get an idea of what it is going to

take to

> get themselves going....

>

> Bob spent 100 hours of acupuncture training...... and I have spent

ummmm

> lets see 5 classes of 40 hours of acupuncture classes for a total

of 200

> hours, 6 classes of OM classes for a total of 240 hours and 6

classes of

> Herbs for a total of 240 hours......just to name a few...and I

can't begin

> to develop a possible patient base? Not to mention accumulate the

much

> needed experience to become successful.

>

> These poor kids, the minute they get out of school, with no patient

base and

> no experience, they have to start repaying debt.....This is just

not right.

>

> Regards

> Holly

>

>

>

> Bill Schoenbart <plantmed2 (AT) gmail (DOT) <plantmed2%40gmail.com>

com> wrote:

> I teach TCM theory to beginning students in their very first

semester. One

> thing I always ask them is how many of them plan to stay in Santa

Cruz. In

> the past, half the class would raise their hands. This past

semester, only 2

> out of 31 students raised their hands. It seems that the word is

getting

> out that practicing in a saturated area is a very poor choice for

students

> who have large amounts of debt. While Todd's words may sound

bitter, I think

> we need to remember them when we are counseling students about

where and how

> to start a practice. I also mention to the students that many of

them may

> need another source of income while practicing. I have always done

that, and

> I still enjoy practicing 15 years after graduating. It is best to

prepare

> students up front for the financial realities so they can do a

better job of

> planning where and how they will practice. I completely agree that

the

> schools have not done enough in this regard.

>

> - Bill

>

> ............................................

> Bill Schoenbart, L.Ac.

> P.O. Box 8099

> Santa Cruz, CA 95061

>

> office phone: 831-335-3165

> email: plantmed (AT) earthlink (DOT) <plantmed%40earthlink.net> net

> ............................................

>

> >>>Have you tried private practice in an area where there is not

hundreds of

> acupuncturists? It seems to me that as our profession matures, we

are

> getting

> expanded coverage by carriers, enough to expand to cover our

expanding

> number of

> practitioners. This of course may not be happening in areas where

it is

> popular to live, aka where the colleges are.>>>>

>

>