Guest guest Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 Once again, because of the presence of bacteria these articles are saying the bacteria are the cause of phlegm... sorry, obesity. Anyone want to make a guess as to the TCM mechanisms here? doug Gut Microbes Give Us Clues To Obesity Cause And Treatment US scientists have discovered that " gut microbes " - bacteria that live in our digestive tract - could be powerful clues to the cause and treatment of obesity. This remarkable news was published in Nature this week and conducted at Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis. The clue lies in the relative abundance of two major families of intestinal bacteria: Firmicutes and Bacteroidetes. These make up 90 per cent of the bacteria in the gut of humans, and, coincidentally, white mice. Researchers in the first of two parallel studies found that as obese people lose weight, the balance between the Firmicutes and the Bacteroidetes changes - the latter increasing in abundance as an overweight person gets slimmer. (It would seem that the microbes ending in " cute " are perhaps not as lovable as their name implies!). The second study was conducted in a neighbouring lab using white mice. Here, researchers discovered that the bacteria in the guts of obese white mice were more efficient at extracting calories from complex carbohydrates than the bacteria in the guts of slimmer mice. Also, in an earlier study, they had shown that the guts of obese mice had the same depletion of Bacteroidetes as found in the guts of the obese humans. This means that you could have two guys eating the same amount of food (i.e. consuming the same calories) each day, and doing the same amount of exercise (i.e. burning equal number of calories) but over the course of several years, one gradually gets fatter and the other stays the same. Why? Because the one who stays the same has more Bacteroidetes in his gut, extracting fewer calories from the same amount of food. The poor guy who gets fatter has a more efficient calorie grabber in his gut, and the excess gets stored as fat - putting him at higher risk of eventually becoming obese. Trillions of " friendly " gut bacteria digest the food we eat by breaking down complex molecules like polysaccharides (complex carbs found in fruit, vegetables and grains) into simple sugars for energy. The excess is converted to fat for longer term storage. However, these studies suggest that the simple equation (calorie value of food intake) - (energy we use) equals (the fat we store), is different for different people. These studies form part of a growing body of research revealing fascinating new insights into what we are made of and what makes us tick. We used to think that the human body was a collection of cells with the same DNA imprint - like a unique bar code for each person. However, within us, in our guts, lie communities of microbes that outnumber our cells by 10 to 1, and, according to the researchers behind these two studies, " they may contain 100 times more genes than our own human genome " . The researchers suggest that intestinal bacteria could become " biomarkers, mediators and potential therapeutic targets " in the fight against obesity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 The Chinese medical mechanisms are the same as they are in any case. Apples and oranges here. Bacteria change nothing about the Chinese disease causes and mechanisms. The mechanisms are those which the patient's presenting pattern(s) indicate. Bob , " " wrote: > > Once again, because of the presence of bacteria these articles are saying the bacteria are > the cause of phlegm... sorry, obesity. Anyone want to make a guess as to the TCM > mechanisms here? > doug > > Gut Microbes Give Us Clues To Obesity Cause And Treatment > > > > US scientists have discovered that " gut microbes " - bacteria that live in our digestive tract > - could be powerful clues to the cause and treatment of obesity. > > This remarkable news was published in Nature this week and conducted at Washington > University School of Medicine in St. Louis. > > The clue lies in the relative abundance of two major families of intestinal bacteria: > Firmicutes and Bacteroidetes. These make up 90 per cent of the bacteria in the gut of > humans, and, coincidentally, white mice. > > Researchers in the first of two parallel studies found that as obese people lose weight, the > balance between the Firmicutes and the Bacteroidetes changes - the latter increasing in > abundance as an overweight person gets slimmer. (It would seem that the microbes > ending in " cute " are perhaps not as lovable as their name implies!). > > The second study was conducted in a neighbouring lab using white mice. Here, > researchers discovered that the bacteria in the guts of obese white mice were more > efficient at extracting calories from complex carbohydrates than the bacteria in the guts of > slimmer mice. > > Also, in an earlier study, they had shown that the guts of obese mice had the same > depletion of Bacteroidetes as found in the guts of the obese humans. > > This means that you could have two guys eating the same amount of food (i.e. consuming > the same calories) each day, and doing the same amount of exercise (i.e. burning equal > number of calories) but over the course of several years, one gradually gets fatter and the > other stays the same. Why? Because the one who stays the same has more Bacteroidetes in > his gut, extracting fewer calories from the same amount of food. > > The poor guy who gets fatter has a more efficient calorie grabber in his gut, and the > excess gets stored as fat - putting him at higher risk of eventually becoming obese. > > Trillions of " friendly " gut bacteria digest the food we eat by breaking down complex > molecules like polysaccharides (complex carbs found in fruit, vegetables and grains) into > simple sugars for energy. The excess is converted to fat for longer term storage. However, > these studies suggest that the simple equation (calorie value of food intake) - (energy we > use) equals (the fat we store), is different for different people. > > These studies form part of a growing body of research revealing fascinating new insights > into what we are made of and what makes us tick. > > We used to think that the human body was a collection of cells with the same DNA imprint > - like a unique bar code for each person. However, within us, in our guts, lie communities > of microbes that outnumber our cells by 10 to 1, and, according to the researchers behind > these two studies, " they may contain 100 times more genes than our own human > genome " . > > The researchers suggest that intestinal bacteria could become " biomarkers, mediators and > potential therapeutic targets " in the fight against obesity. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 It may be apples and oranges but does anyone want to speculate on the soil they are being grown in? doug , " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001 wrote: > > The Chinese medical mechanisms are the same as they are in any case. > Apples and oranges here. Bacteria change nothing about the Chinese > disease causes and mechanisms. The mechanisms are those which the > patient's presenting pattern(s) indicate. > > Bob > > , " " > <taiqi@> wrote: > > > > Once again, because of the presence of bacteria these articles are > saying the bacteria are > > the cause of phlegm... sorry, obesity. Anyone want to make a guess > as to the TCM > > mechanisms here? > > doug > > > > Gut Microbes Give Us Clues To Obesity Cause And Treatment > > > > > > > > US scientists have discovered that " gut microbes " - bacteria that > live in our digestive tract > > - could be powerful clues to the cause and treatment of obesity. > > > > This remarkable news was published in Nature this week and conducted > at Washington > > University School of Medicine in St. Louis. > > > > The clue lies in the relative abundance of two major families of > intestinal bacteria: > > Firmicutes and Bacteroidetes. These make up 90 per cent of the > bacteria in the gut of > > humans, and, coincidentally, white mice. > > > > Researchers in the first of two parallel studies found that as obese > people lose weight, the > > balance between the Firmicutes and the Bacteroidetes changes - the > latter increasing in > > abundance as an overweight person gets slimmer. (It would seem that > the microbes > > ending in " cute " are perhaps not as lovable as their name implies!). > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 On 12/21/06, wrote: > > Once again, because of the presence of bacteria [Firmicutes] these > articles are saying the bacteria are the cause of phlegm... sorry, obesity. > Anyone want to make a guess as to the TCM mechanisms here? > Adipose tissue is commonly considered " phlegm damp accumulation " but there are so many other kinds of dampness that may have nothing to do with Firmicutes. There's the excess fluid in the stomach or the heavy sensation of some headaches or a runny nose or loose stools or ankle edema. These Firmicutes that are more efficient at extracting calories from complex carbohydrates would represent Spleen qi in the emaciated patient, but a mechanism for phlegm damp accumulation in the obese patient. Perhaps Firmicutes are just one of many biomedical mechanisms that turn food into fat, but I don't believe that they represent a one-to-one correspondence with " dampness " . -al. -- Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 Bacteria are part of the terrain. The terrain is influenced by the 7 Factors (wind, cold, damp, heat, fire, summerheat, dryness)and 8 Principles. Pattern Discrimination arises from those factors. There are over 500 different bacteria that exist in our bodies. Mmost cells in our body are not " human " . They are bacterial. By influening the 7 factors/ 8 principles the bacteria are influenced. Ed Kasper LAc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 Dear Al, Doug, and everyone else listening in, Rereading your exchange about bacteria, damp and phlegm got me thinking about the following patient: Female, thin, age 30 with bags (not black) under her eyes. The bags appear to be adipose and not water. Pulse, primarily slippery but a little tready, not particularly weak, nor wiry. Tongue moist, light red body, thin white coat, otherwise not particularly remarkable. Unfortunately, the patient is now out of town in a cold climate, and is involved in a doctoral program where she gets little sun nor exercise. She is not interested in taking herbs, nor acupuncture, and at least for now, is only interested in dietary suggestions and modifications. So far I have suggested the following: eliminate dairy, refined sugar and wheat (which are common allergens and were mainstays of her diet) add Essential Fatty Acids in the form of refrigerated Cod liver oil (because no sunlight, no vitamin D) and have at least one avocado daily, and please a teabag over each eye for 15 minutes nightly. Two thoughts I had: she is under a lot of stress and is up well past 1:00 am nightly. The eyes are related to the liver and liver time is between 1 and 3 am. Could that be contributing? Second, as I mentioned the bags are not fluid, they're fat. What is the mechanism that would cause fat to accumulate around the eyes of all places? Al Stone <al wrote: On 12/21/06, wrote: > > Once again, because of the presence of bacteria [Firmicutes] these > articles are saying the bacteria are the cause of phlegm... sorry, obesity. > Anyone want to make a guess as to the TCM mechanisms here? > Adipose tissue is commonly considered " phlegm damp accumulation " but there are so many other kinds of dampness that may have nothing to do with Firmicutes. There's the excess fluid in the stomach or the heavy sensation of some headaches or a runny nose or loose stools or ankle edema. These Firmicutes that are more efficient at extracting calories from complex carbohydrates would represent Spleen qi in the emaciated patient, but a mechanism for phlegm damp accumulation in the obese patient. Perhaps Firmicutes are just one of many biomedical mechanisms that turn food into fat, but I don't believe that they represent a one-to-one correspondence with " dampness " . -al. -- Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 On 1/11/07, wrote: > > she is under a lot of stress and is up well past 1:00 am > nightly. The eyes are related to the liver and liver time is between 1 and > 3 am. Could that be contributing? > Could be. If she is stressed then the Liver may be attacking the Spleen causing its deficiency. > Second, as I mentioned the bags are not fluid, they're fat. What is the > mechanism that would cause fat to accumulate around the eyes of all places? > This may be more about overwork/overthinking causing a Spleen qi deficiency. This leads to the creation of dampness internally. Dampness + time + stagnation = phlegm. Phlegm can look like fat deposits. According to the theory of the five wheels, the tissue surrounding the eye is associated with the Spleen. http://www.acupuncture.com/images/eyes.gif -- Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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