Guest guest Posted December 24, 2006 Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 Salary Information for an Acupuncturist: According to Payscale's Real-Time Salary Survey, www.payscale.com, the median yearly salary for acupuncturists in years 1-4 is $45,000. In the 5-19 year range, the mean of the medians is 55,000. The one group making a decent living is those with 20 or more years in practice. Since this group also spent next to nothing on their training, I am sure the profession looks good to them. These would include many of those who are most well-known in the field. While the data does come from a small, self-selected group, this pay range is pretty similar to what I have heard anecdotally. For those unfamiliar with statistics terminology, median means there are an equal number of licensees making more and less than this figure. That means half make less, possibly much less. Mean averages tend to be much less meaningful when it comes to determining typical rates of earnings as mean averages can be highly skewed by idiosyncratic low and high rates. According to payscale.com, acupuncturists fall into the following (Bureau of Labor Management) BLS category: Health Diagnosing and Treating Practitioners, All Other The following job description describes the common responsibilities for this occupation. Job Description: All health diagnosing and treating practitioners not listed separately. Similar Job Titles: Corrective Therapist - Dermatologist - Eye Specialist - Gastroenterologist - Heart Specialist - Hematologist - Immunologist - Neonatologist - Ophthalmologist - Orthopedist - Otolaryngologist - Otorhinolaryngologist - Acupuncturist - Radiologist - Herbalist According to the BLS, here are the median and mean salaries in this group. Keep in mind that the median salary includes those above and below the figure. Since most of the other professions listed all make very high salaries, one can assume that most acupuncturists as a group fall below the median listed here (as the payscale.com data indicates). In addition, you can factor out those listed as working in hospitals and physician offices (the two largest groups). If you look closely at the statistics and add up the number and consider how many licensed acupuncturists there are in the US, it also appears that a significant number of licensees are not working as a practitioner at all. I would say up to 2/3, based upon these stats, assuming this category is most reflective of what most L.Ac. do—those who work in Offices of other health practitioners: 3,050. (I take this to mean that one works in a private practice other than as an MD, not that one works in someone else's practice—there about 6,000 workers not accounted for in these stats, but they are all distributed through fields with less than 1000 workers each and they are not all L.Ac.; this may include product reps, insurance adjustors, researchers, etc.) A lot of people may just keep up their licenses to legally treat friends and family. For example, I have a license, but earn no money as an L.Ac. nor will I declare that to be my profession on my tax return as of this tax year. The upshot of all this: Despite the hype you hear from various vested interests, acupuncture is probably not a viable independent profession for the longterm. After 30 years, it is still only used by a very small % of the population, is generally disparaged in popular media as new-age voodoo, and the vast majority of those who use it are only seeking help for neuromuscular complaints. These is very little chance that TCM herbology will ever be widely accepted as a modality for internal medicine (since there will never be a large enough body of acceptable research in this area, polypharmacy is roundly rejected as unsafe and even unethical in most mainstream medical circles, etc.). Acupuncture's use as a physical therapy will likely be co-opted by mainstream MDs, DCs, and PTs. My point is not that chinese medicine has no place in modern healthcare. It does have usefulness and I still continue to use it personally for some ailments. My point is solely that if one has entered this field of study expecting to make a decent living as an independent practitioner, many, if not most, of you won't. You will hear a lot of shrill rebuttal to this contention, but ask yourself, " who is denying these facts and what vested interest do they represent " ? As they say, follow the money. If I was starting over, I would just become an unlicensed herbalist like Roger Wicke. If I was into neuromuscular medicine, I would become a PT or chiropractor. Chinese Herbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2006 Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 Todd: Your facts put the situation in clear perspective. While some achieve financial success as acupuncturists, those cases are probably few and far between. You wrote: " If I was starting over, I would just become an unlicensed herbalist like Roger Wicke. If I was into neuromuscular medicine, I would become a PT or chiropractor. " Perhaps the present educational and professional model needs a complete reversal. Acupuncture and herbs can essentially achieve the same results, so why should new students choose the most expensive path, which cannot guarantee professional success? At one point in this thread, someone mentioned the viable option of massage therapists who go on to study herbs or other techniques. Similarly, Tui Na and Shiatsu could be integrated into programs for herbalists, along with other less prominent but equally effective techniques of Chinese medicine. These could be integrated with programs for chiropractors and physical therapists. Acupuncturists would take the position at the top of the pyramid, reserved ideally for those with the greatest mastery of all of the medicine, but would probably work out in practice as the place reserved for those with enough personal capital to afford high tuition, pay insurance premiums and survive lean years. The medicine is wonderful, but inefficient and unworkable educational and professional models will not survive over the long term. Co-optation is not a solution, as the medicine needs to stand on its own merits and proceed from its own principles. Playing down the prominence of acupuncture might improve public perceptions of the medicine as a whole. The lesser the association with painful needles in the public's mind, perhaps the more the public will accept the medicine as a whole. Co-optation of acupuncture has already taken place. A few years ago, my brother, an MD in Los Angeles, scoffed at the idea of anything having to do with Asian medicine. Yet last year he told me that his employer, Kaiser, now includes acupuncture within the range of services they provide. So it appears that Kaiser has begun to co-opt from the top of that pyramid. Kind regards, Jack --- < wrote: > Salary Information for an Acupuncturist: > > According to Payscale's Real-Time Salary Survey, > www.payscale.com, > the median yearly salary for acupuncturists in years > 1-4 is $45,000. > In the 5-19 year range, the mean of the medians is > 55,000. The one > group making a decent living is those with 20 or > more years in > practice. Since this group also spent next to > nothing on their > training, I am sure the profession looks good to > them. These would > include many of those who are most well-known in the > field. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2006 Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 Jack, I have many problems with your proposed model. 1) Acupuncture largely has a positive image in much of the public eye. Only those who are completely uniformed, i.e. see acupuncture as multiple injections with syringes which are then left in the body for a half hour, perceive it as painful on the whole. 2) While this is a difficult profession to be successful in quickly, many practitioners I know here in San Diego and Los Angeles have achieved financial success. How, of course, should we define financial success? 3) Breaking up modalities among different professions, or remodulating Chinese medicine as a part of a massage therapists program would only chop it up into pieces. Chinese medicine requires full-time dedication to master it, it is not a grab-bag of techniques to be exploited by other professions. 4) Acupuncture/moxa and herbal medicine are different modalities with different therapeutic goals and actions. How do you see them having the same results? 5) Kaiser, like other health care corporations, may use acupuncture in a limited way, but how is that co-option? The public still wants Chinese medicine practiced according to its core principles, which Kaiser cannot provide. There is a great demand for health professionals who spend more than 6.5 minutes with a patient, who the patient can choose for themselves, without the corporation as intermediary. We agree that the present educational system is overpriced and needs some refocusing. But I don't think we need to reinvent the wheel. On Dec 24, 2006, at 9:31 PM, Jack Sweeney wrote: : > > Your facts put the situation in clear perspective. > While some achieve financial success as > acupuncturists, those cases are probably few and far > between. > > You wrote: > > " If I was starting over, I would just become an > unlicensed herbalist like Roger Wicke. If I was into > neuromuscular medicine, I would become a PT or > chiropractor. " > > Perhaps the present educational and professional model > needs a complete reversal. Acupuncture and herbs can > essentially achieve the same results, so why should > new students choose the most expensive path, which > cannot guarantee professional success? > > At one point in this thread, someone mentioned the > viable option of massage therapists who go on to study > herbs or other techniques. Similarly, Tui Na and > Shiatsu could be integrated into programs for > herbalists, along with other less prominent but > equally effective techniques of Chinese medicine. > These could be integrated with programs for > chiropractors and physical therapists. > > Acupuncturists would take the position at the top of > the pyramid, reserved ideally for those with the > greatest mastery of all of the medicine, but would > probably work out in practice as the place reserved > for those with enough personal capital to afford high > tuition, pay insurance premiums and survive lean > years. > > The medicine is wonderful, but inefficient and > unworkable educational and professional models will > not survive over the long term. Co-optation is not a > solution, as the medicine needs to stand on its own > merits and proceed from its own principles. > > Playing down the prominence of acupuncture might > improve public perceptions of the medicine as a whole. > The lesser the association with painful needles in the > public's mind, perhaps the more the public will accept > the medicine as a whole. > > Co-optation of acupuncture has already taken place. A > few years ago, my brother, an MD in Los Angeles, > scoffed at the idea of anything having to do with > Asian medicine. Yet last year he told me that his > employer, Kaiser, now includes acupuncture within the > range of services they provide. > > So it appears that Kaiser has begun to co-opt from the > top of that pyramid. > > Kind regards, Jack > > --- < wrote: > > > Salary Information for an Acupuncturist: > > > > According to Payscale's Real-Time Salary Survey, > > www.payscale.com, > > the median yearly salary for acupuncturists in years > > 1-4 is $45,000. > > In the 5-19 year range, the mean of the medians is > > 55,000. The one > > group making a decent living is those with 20 or > > more years in > > practice. Since this group also spent next to > > nothing on their > > training, I am sure the profession looks good to > > them. These would > > include many of those who are most well-known in the > > field. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 25, 2006 Report Share Posted December 25, 2006 I certainly understand your frustrations, paying to sponsor CHA conferences out of pocket, trying to make a living teaching and practicing. You contributed a lot to the CM field, without the compensation you deserved. However, your opinion below is colored by your anger and bitterness directed to the field. Data is data, but data is interpreted through minds that are already predisposed by experience and emotions, and I feel this is the case here. .. In my mind, we are in the early stages of the transmission of Chinese medicine to the West, and there are many positive developments in our field as well. We can see the glass as half- full, or half-empty. It is all a matter of perspective. Because we are a new, nascent profession, there are many problems and frustrations. But I would never do anything but encourage students and practitioners to engage in this noble field, Chinese medicine. As proprietor of CHA, I feel it is your responsibility to promote the profession in a more positive manner, rather than telling students and practitioners that their investment of time and money are worthless. Is CHA trying to promote Chinese herbal medicine, or simply tell people that our profession has no future? On Dec 24, 2006, at 8:03 AM, wrote: > he upshot of all this: Despite the hype you hear from various vested > interests, acupuncture is probably not a viable independent > profession for the longterm. After 30 years, it is still only used by > a very small % of the population, is generally disparaged in popular > media as new-age voodoo, and the vast majority of those who use it > are only seeking help for neuromuscular complaints. These is very > little chance that TCM herbology will ever be widely accepted as a > modality for internal medicine (since there will never be a large > enough body of acceptable research in this area, polypharmacy is > roundly rejected as unsafe and even unethical in most mainstream > medical circles, etc.). Acupuncture's use as a physical therapy will > likely be co-opted by mainstream MDs, DCs, and PTs. My point is not > that chinese medicine has no place in modern healthcare. It does have > usefulness and I still continue to use it personally for some > ailments. My point is solely that if one has entered this field of > study expecting to make a decent living as an independent > practitioner, many, if not most, of you won't. You will hear a lot of > shrill rebuttal to this contention, but ask yourself, " who is denying > these facts and what vested interest do they represent " ? As they say, > follow the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 25, 2006 Report Share Posted December 25, 2006 As proprietor of CHA, I feel it is your responsibility to promote the profession in a more positive manner, rather than telling students and practitioners that their investment of time and money are worthless. Is CHA trying to promote Chinese herbal medicine, or simply tell people that our profession has no future? >>>>>>>> Seeing the majority of students in my area not making a decent living i have to support Todd in distributing such data. We need reality injected into this profession on all levels. Oakland, CA 94609 - Monday, December 25, 2006 12:07 AM Re: earnings I certainly understand your frustrations, paying to sponsor CHA conferences out of pocket, trying to make a living teaching and practicing. You contributed a lot to the CM field, without the compensation you deserved. However, your opinion below is colored by your anger and bitterness directed to the field. Data is data, but data is interpreted through minds that are already predisposed by experience and emotions, and I feel this is the case here. . In my mind, we are in the early stages of the transmission of Chinese medicine to the West, and there are many positive developments in our field as well. We can see the glass as half- full, or half-empty. It is all a matter of perspective. Because we are a new, nascent profession, there are many problems and frustrations. But I would never do anything but encourage students and practitioners to engage in this noble field, Chinese medicine. As proprietor of CHA, I feel it is your responsibility to promote the profession in a more positive manner, rather than telling students and practitioners that their investment of time and money are worthless. Is CHA trying to promote Chinese herbal medicine, or simply tell people that our profession has no future? On Dec 24, 2006, at 8:03 AM, wrote: > he upshot of all this: Despite the hype you hear from various vested > interests, acupuncture is probably not a viable independent > profession for the longterm. After 30 years, it is still only used by > a very small % of the population, is generally disparaged in popular > media as new-age voodoo, and the vast majority of those who use it > are only seeking help for neuromuscular complaints. These is very > little chance that TCM herbology will ever be widely accepted as a > modality for internal medicine (since there will never be a large > enough body of acceptable research in this area, polypharmacy is > roundly rejected as unsafe and even unethical in most mainstream > medical circles, etc.). Acupuncture's use as a physical therapy will > likely be co-opted by mainstream MDs, DCs, and PTs. My point is not > that chinese medicine has no place in modern healthcare. It does have > usefulness and I still continue to use it personally for some > ailments. My point is solely that if one has entered this field of > study expecting to make a decent living as an independent > practitioner, many, if not most, of you won't. You will hear a lot of > shrill rebuttal to this contention, but ask yourself, " who is denying > these facts and what vested interest do they represent " ? As they say, > follow the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 2006 Report Share Posted December 26, 2006 For several decades in China there was a Medical System that channels graduates into teaching, the clinic, research and administration. It seems like here in the West we only see success in terms of an independent clinic. And our yardstick, at the high end, are those immensly successful super-star clinics. And these are rare. I've seen some of my graduates leave the profession and more than a few go on to very quickly making good careers out of the TCM field. In general, these are those who are practicing in the communities that they grew up in, taking advantage of a life-time of connections. Looking back it seems easier to spot those potentially successful graduates. And it doesn't have much to do with grades but an enthusiasm to work with patients and to work the medicine. It also takes an optimistic outlook and a willingness to outreach into their own communities. I tell my students that if you had a problem with money before you started in school, you are going to have money problems after acupuncture school, UNLESS you change something in the way you operate. Having the degree itself isn't going to change anything. For the rest of us who are " good with theory " there are plenty of opportunities. I don't feel like I'm hyping anybody by teaching them . I've got a good friend who, at a major University, teaches restoration of Greek antiquities. I don't think he worries if there aren't jobs at the end for his students. I mean he worries, maybe individually, but the work still has to be done and he is the best one to teach it. As Z'ev points out, this is a beginning field in the West. After all of 30 years, we're not all rolling in money and respect? What is 30 years in the scheme of things? It's only the last 10 years we've had a half way decent selection of books. I'm proud to be part of this movement... and my patients and students make it all worthwhile. But sometimes I don't hear that from them until years after. Maybe you wouldn't consider my salary a decent one. It's OK, I wish it were a whole lot more but after 10 years I'm doing OK and more importantly I'm doing what I want to do. It's obvious that it's not what you want to do anymore. doug > On Dec 24, 2006, at 8:03 AM, wrote: > > > he upshot of all this: Despite the hype you hear from various vested > > interests, acupuncture is probably not a viable independent > > profession for the longterm. After 30 years, it is still only used by > > a very small % of the population, is generally disparaged in popular > > media as new-age voodoo, and the vast majority of those who use it > > are only seeking help for neuromuscular complaints. These is very > > little chance that TCM herbology will ever be widely accepted as a > > modality for internal medicine (since there will never be a large > > enough body of acceptable research in this area, polypharmacy is > > roundly rejected as unsafe and even unethical in most mainstream > > medical circles, etc.). Acupuncture's use as a physical therapy will > > likely be co-opted by mainstream MDs, DCs, and PTs. My point is not > > that chinese medicine has no place in modern healthcare. It does have > > usefulness and I still continue to use it personally for some > > ailments. My point is solely that if one has entered this field of > > study expecting to make a decent living as an independent > > practitioner, many, if not most, of you won't. You will hear a lot of > > shrill rebuttal to this contention, but ask yourself, " who is denying > > these facts and what vested interest do they represent " ? As they say, > > follow the money. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 2006 Report Share Posted December 26, 2006 Admittedly there are both sides to this argument. It isn't easy to build any business, especially one that goes against conventional " wisdom?! " but there are opportunities out there for those wanting to pursue a career in . I personally have been trying to hire 1 or 2 qualified, motivated practitioners for over 6 mos. I think Todd is right in that new graduates need to see the reality of the situation. You cannot expect to build a thriving practice just because you have graduated from a school and have a piece of paper that says so. You have to define what you want - and be clear about what you are prepared to commit to achieve it. Not everyone is an entrepeneur, there are researchers, there are politicians, there are teachers, there are business builders, there are employees, acupuncturists, herbalists. They all graduate from the same schools and have the same piece of paper, but their callings are different. If they select the wrong arena for their calling, chances are they are going to be frustrated and disappointed. My biggest concern is that the schools are not helping students and graduates determine what that calling is. Where are the career counselors - where are the mentors? I think Zev is also right, we need to promote this field of medicine and plant the seeds of positivity for a profession that has an awful lot to offer. Best Wishes Kayte Halstead Acupuncture 4 Health , " " <alonmarcus wrote: > > As proprietor of CHA, I feel it is your responsibility to promote > the profession in a more positive manner, rather than telling > students and practitioners that their investment of time and money > are worthless. Is CHA trying to promote Chinese herbal medicine, or > simply tell people that our profession has no future? > >>>>>>>> > Seeing the majority of students in my area not making a decent living i have to support Todd in distributing such data. We need reality injected into this profession on all levels. > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > > > Monday, December 25, 2006 12:07 AM > Re: earnings > > > > > I certainly understand your frustrations, paying to sponsor CHA > conferences out of pocket, trying to make a living teaching and > practicing. You contributed a lot to the CM field, without the > compensation you deserved. > > However, your opinion below is colored by your anger and > bitterness directed to the field. Data is data, but data is > interpreted through minds that are already predisposed by experience > and emotions, and I feel this is the case here. > . > In my mind, we are in the early stages of the transmission of > Chinese medicine to the West, and there are many positive > developments in our field as well. We can see the glass as half- > full, or half-empty. It is all a matter of perspective. > > Because we are a new, nascent profession, there are many problems > and frustrations. But I would never do anything but encourage > students and practitioners to engage in this noble field, Chinese > medicine. > > As proprietor of CHA, I feel it is your responsibility to promote > the profession in a more positive manner, rather than telling > students and practitioners that their investment of time and money > are worthless. Is CHA trying to promote Chinese herbal medicine, or > simply tell people that our profession has no future? > > > > On Dec 24, 2006, at 8:03 AM, wrote: > > > he upshot of all this: Despite the hype you hear from various vested > > interests, acupuncture is probably not a viable independent > > profession for the longterm. After 30 years, it is still only used by > > a very small % of the population, is generally disparaged in popular > > media as new-age voodoo, and the vast majority of those who use it > > are only seeking help for neuromuscular complaints. These is very > > little chance that TCM herbology will ever be widely accepted as a > > modality for internal medicine (since there will never be a large > > enough body of acceptable research in this area, polypharmacy is > > roundly rejected as unsafe and even unethical in most mainstream > > medical circles, etc.). Acupuncture's use as a physical therapy will > > likely be co-opted by mainstream MDs, DCs, and PTs. My point is not > > that chinese medicine has no place in modern healthcare. It does have > > usefulness and I still continue to use it personally for some > > ailments. My point is solely that if one has entered this field of > > study expecting to make a decent living as an independent > > practitioner, many, if not most, of you won't. You will hear a lot of > > shrill rebuttal to this contention, but ask yourself, " who is denying > > these facts and what vested interest do they represent " ? As they say, > > follow the money. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 2006 Report Share Posted December 26, 2006 Alon, It's not the data, It's the attitude. -- In , " " <alonmarcus wrote: > > >>>>>>>> > Seeing the majority of students in my area not making a decent living i have to support Todd in distributing such data. We need reality injected into this profession on all levels. > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > > > Monday, December 25, 2006 12:07 AM > Re: earnings > > > > > I certainly understand your frustrations, paying to sponsor CHA > conferences out of pocket, trying to make a living teaching and > practicing. You contributed a lot to the CM field, without the > compensation you deserved. > > However, your opinion below is colored by your anger and > bitterness directed to the field. Data is data, but data is > interpreted through minds that are already predisposed by experience > and emotions, and I feel this is the case here. > . > In my mind, we are in the early stages of the transmission of > Chinese medicine to the West, and there are many positive > developments in our field as well. We can see the glass as half- > full, or half-empty. It is all a matter of perspective. > > Because we are a new, nascent profession, there are many problems > and frustrations. But I would never do anything but encourage > students and practitioners to engage in this noble field, Chinese > medicine. > > As proprietor of CHA, I feel it is your responsibility to promote > the profession in a more positive manner, rather than telling > students and practitioners that their investment of time and money > are worthless. Is CHA trying to promote Chinese herbal medicine, or > simply tell people that our profession has no future? > > > > On Dec 24, 2006, at 8:03 AM, wrote: > > > he upshot of all this: Despite the hype you hear from various vested > > interests, acupuncture is probably not a viable independent > > profession for the longterm. After 30 years, it is still only used by > > a very small % of the population, is generally disparaged in popular > > media as new-age voodoo, and the vast majority of those who use it > > are only seeking help for neuromuscular complaints. These is very > > little chance that TCM herbology will ever be widely accepted as a > > modality for internal medicine (since there will never be a large > > enough body of acceptable research in this area, polypharmacy is > > roundly rejected as unsafe and even unethical in most mainstream > > medical circles, etc.). Acupuncture's use as a physical therapy will > > likely be co-opted by mainstream MDs, DCs, and PTs. My point is not > > that chinese medicine has no place in modern healthcare. It does have > > usefulness and I still continue to use it personally for some > > ailments. My point is solely that if one has entered this field of > > study expecting to make a decent living as an independent > > practitioner, many, if not most, of you won't. You will hear a lot of > > shrill rebuttal to this contention, but ask yourself, " who is denying > > these facts and what vested interest do they represent " ? As they say, > > follow the money. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 2006 Report Share Posted December 26, 2006 Z'ev, Alon, et al, I see you all are very passionate about helping make sure CM evolve and develop to a " right " direction in the west. Although I am relatively new (< 4 years licensed and in part-time solo practice for about the same time) I'd like to share some view to support the passion. I think both data and attitude are important. At least these are among the factors I have always considered for career movements for myself and for many people who I mentored for CM or high-tech field which I have been in for ~25 yers. Data available allows for objective assessment to a large degree, with a qualification of the validity of the data. Attitude can make a tremendous difference, given the same set of data and even similar interpretations of the data. Some intelligence added on top of the attitude will enable one to establish metrics which he/she *buys into* and follow through. The sad truth is, a lot of new practitioners either have not thought about establishing metrics (or ways to assess one's apptitude or chance of succeeding for CM related jobs) let alone believing in one or following through. Of course, all these are on top of learning/working passionately. Agreed, the CM schools I know of don't teach this sort of things and the teachers in active practice but have not been successful couldn't be helpful either. All I can do is to do my part to help. Mike L. zrosenberg2001 <zrosenbe wrote: Alon, It's not the data, It's the attitude. -- In , " " <alonmarcus wrote: > > >>>>>>>> > Seeing the majority of students in my area not making a decent living i have to support Todd in distributing such data. We need reality injected into this profession on all levels. > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > > > Monday, December 25, 2006 12:07 AM > Re: earnings > > > > > I certainly understand your frustrations, paying to sponsor CHA > conferences out of pocket, trying to make a living teaching and > practicing. You contributed a lot to the CM field, without the > compensation you deserved. > > However, your opinion below is colored by your anger and > bitterness directed to the field. Data is data, but data is > interpreted through minds that are already predisposed by experience > and emotions, and I feel this is the case here. > . > In my mind, we are in the early stages of the transmission of > Chinese medicine to the West, and there are many positive > developments in our field as well. We can see the glass as half- > full, or half-empty. It is all a matter of perspective. > > Because we are a new, nascent profession, there are many problems > and frustrations. But I would never do anything but encourage > students and practitioners to engage in this noble field, Chinese > medicine. > > As proprietor of CHA, I feel it is your responsibility to promote > the profession in a more positive manner, rather than telling > students and practitioners that their investment of time and money > are worthless. Is CHA trying to promote Chinese herbal medicine, or > simply tell people that our profession has no future? > > > > On Dec 24, 2006, at 8:03 AM, wrote: > > > he upshot of all this: Despite the hype you hear from various vested > > interests, acupuncture is probably not a viable independent > > profession for the longterm. After 30 years, it is still only used by > > a very small % of the population, is generally disparaged in popular > > media as new-age voodoo, and the vast majority of those who use it > > are only seeking help for neuromuscular complaints. These is very > > little chance that TCM herbology will ever be widely accepted as a > > modality for internal medicine (since there will never be a large > > enough body of acceptable research in this area, polypharmacy is > > roundly rejected as unsafe and even unethical in most mainstream > > medical circles, etc.). Acupuncture's use as a physical therapy will > > likely be co-opted by mainstream MDs, DCs, and PTs. My point is not > > that chinese medicine has no place in modern healthcare. It does have > > usefulness and I still continue to use it personally for some > > ailments. My point is solely that if one has entered this field of > > study expecting to make a decent living as an independent > > practitioner, many, if not most, of you won't. You will hear a lot of > > shrill rebuttal to this contention, but ask yourself, " who is denying > > these facts and what vested interest do they represent " ? As they say, > > follow the money. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 2006 Report Share Posted December 26, 2006 If success in the market place after CM education takes entrepreneurship then this should be made clear to perspective students. I think they need to understand what they are getting into before spending the money. As far as a good living, are you making enough to support yourself and your family throughout retirement? can you pay for your children education, have you saved for retirement, etc.? i would think anyone going into a medical field would like to have such goals met. Oakland, CA 94609 - Mike Liaw Tuesday, December 26, 2006 11:55 AM Re: earnings Z'ev, Alon, et al, I see you all are very passionate about helping make sure CM evolve and develop to a " right " direction in the west. Although I am relatively new (< 4 years licensed and in part-time solo practice for about the same time) I'd like to share some view to support the passion. I think both data and attitude are important. At least these are among the factors I have always considered for career movements for myself and for many people who I mentored for CM or high-tech field which I have been in for ~25 yers. Data available allows for objective assessment to a large degree, with a qualification of the validity of the data. Attitude can make a tremendous difference, given the same set of data and even similar interpretations of the data. Some intelligence added on top of the attitude will enable one to establish metrics which he/she *buys into* and follow through. The sad truth is, a lot of new practitioners either have not thought about establishing metrics (or ways to assess one's apptitude or chance of succeeding for CM related jobs) let alone believing in one or following through. Of course, all these are on top of learning/working passionately. Agreed, the CM schools I know of don't teach this sort of things and the teachers in active practice but have not been successful couldn't be helpful either. All I can do is to do my part to help. Mike L. zrosenberg2001 <zrosenbe wrote: Alon, It's not the data, It's the attitude. -- In , " " <alonmarcus wrote: > > >>>>>>>> > Seeing the majority of students in my area not making a decent living i have to support Todd in distributing such data. We need reality injected into this profession on all levels. > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > > > Monday, December 25, 2006 12:07 AM > Re: earnings > > > > > I certainly understand your frustrations, paying to sponsor CHA > conferences out of pocket, trying to make a living teaching and > practicing. You contributed a lot to the CM field, without the > compensation you deserved. > > However, your opinion below is colored by your anger and > bitterness directed to the field. Data is data, but data is > interpreted through minds that are already predisposed by experience > and emotions, and I feel this is the case here. > . > In my mind, we are in the early stages of the transmission of > Chinese medicine to the West, and there are many positive > developments in our field as well. We can see the glass as half- > full, or half-empty. It is all a matter of perspective. > > Because we are a new, nascent profession, there are many problems > and frustrations. But I would never do anything but encourage > students and practitioners to engage in this noble field, Chinese > medicine. > > As proprietor of CHA, I feel it is your responsibility to promote > the profession in a more positive manner, rather than telling > students and practitioners that their investment of time and money > are worthless. Is CHA trying to promote Chinese herbal medicine, or > simply tell people that our profession has no future? > > > > On Dec 24, 2006, at 8:03 AM, wrote: > > > he upshot of all this: Despite the hype you hear from various vested > > interests, acupuncture is probably not a viable independent > > profession for the longterm. After 30 years, it is still only used by > > a very small % of the population, is generally disparaged in popular > > media as new-age voodoo, and the vast majority of those who use it > > are only seeking help for neuromuscular complaints. These is very > > little chance that TCM herbology will ever be widely accepted as a > > modality for internal medicine (since there will never be a large > > enough body of acceptable research in this area, polypharmacy is > > roundly rejected as unsafe and even unethical in most mainstream > > medical circles, etc.). Acupuncture's use as a physical therapy will > > likely be co-opted by mainstream MDs, DCs, and PTs. My point is not > > that chinese medicine has no place in modern healthcare. It does have > > usefulness and I still continue to use it personally for some > > ailments. My point is solely that if one has entered this field of > > study expecting to make a decent living as an independent > > practitioner, many, if not most, of you won't. You will hear a lot of > > shrill rebuttal to this contention, but ask yourself, " who is denying > > these facts and what vested interest do they represent " ? As they say, > > follow the money. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2006 Report Share Posted December 27, 2006 Absolutely, agreed. Mike L. <alonmarcus wrote: If success in the market place after CM education takes entrepreneurship then this should be made clear to perspective students. I think they need to understand what they are getting into before spending the money. As far as a good living, are you making enough to support yourself and your family throughout retirement? can you pay for your children education, have you saved for retirement, etc.? i would think anyone going into a medical field would like to have such goals met. Oakland, CA 94609 - Mike Liaw Tuesday, December 26, 2006 11:55 AM Re: earnings Z'ev, Alon, et al, I see you all are very passionate about helping make sure CM evolve and develop to a " right " direction in the west. Although I am relatively new (< 4 years licensed and in part-time solo practice for about the same time) I'd like to share some view to support the passion. I think both data and attitude are important. At least these are among the factors I have always considered for career movements for myself and for many people who I mentored for CM or high-tech field which I have been in for ~25 yers. Data available allows for objective assessment to a large degree, with a qualification of the validity of the data. Attitude can make a tremendous difference, given the same set of data and even similar interpretations of the data. Some intelligence added on top of the attitude will enable one to establish metrics which he/she *buys into* and follow through. The sad truth is, a lot of new practitioners either have not thought about establishing metrics (or ways to assess one's apptitude or chance of succeeding for CM related jobs) let alone believing in one or following through. Of course, all these are on top of learning/working passionately. Agreed, the CM schools I know of don't teach this sort of things and the teachers in active practice but have not been successful couldn't be helpful either. All I can do is to do my part to help. Mike L. zrosenberg2001 <zrosenbe wrote: Alon, It's not the data, It's the attitude. -- In , " " <alonmarcus wrote: > > >>>>>>>> > Seeing the majority of students in my area not making a decent living i have to support Todd in distributing such data. We need reality injected into this profession on all levels. > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > > > Monday, December 25, 2006 12:07 AM > Re: earnings > > > > > I certainly understand your frustrations, paying to sponsor CHA > conferences out of pocket, trying to make a living teaching and > practicing. You contributed a lot to the CM field, without the > compensation you deserved. > > However, your opinion below is colored by your anger and > bitterness directed to the field. Data is data, but data is > interpreted through minds that are already predisposed by experience > and emotions, and I feel this is the case here. > . > In my mind, we are in the early stages of the transmission of > Chinese medicine to the West, and there are many positive > developments in our field as well. We can see the glass as half- > full, or half-empty. It is all a matter of perspective. > > Because we are a new, nascent profession, there are many problems > and frustrations. But I would never do anything but encourage > students and practitioners to engage in this noble field, Chinese > medicine. > > As proprietor of CHA, I feel it is your responsibility to promote > the profession in a more positive manner, rather than telling > students and practitioners that their investment of time and money > are worthless. Is CHA trying to promote Chinese herbal medicine, or > simply tell people that our profession has no future? > > > > On Dec 24, 2006, at 8:03 AM, wrote: > > > he upshot of all this: Despite the hype you hear from various vested > > interests, acupuncture is probably not a viable independent > > profession for the longterm. After 30 years, it is still only used by > > a very small % of the population, is generally disparaged in popular > > media as new-age voodoo, and the vast majority of those who use it > > are only seeking help for neuromuscular complaints. These is very > > little chance that TCM herbology will ever be widely accepted as a > > modality for internal medicine (since there will never be a large > > enough body of acceptable research in this area, polypharmacy is > > roundly rejected as unsafe and even unethical in most mainstream > > medical circles, etc.). Acupuncture's use as a physical therapy will > > likely be co-opted by mainstream MDs, DCs, and PTs. My point is not > > that chinese medicine has no place in modern healthcare. It does have > > usefulness and I still continue to use it personally for some > > ailments. My point is solely that if one has entered this field of > > study expecting to make a decent living as an independent > > practitioner, many, if not most, of you won't. You will hear a lot of > > shrill rebuttal to this contention, but ask yourself, " who is denying > > these facts and what vested interest do they represent " ? As they say, > > follow the money. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.