Guest guest Posted December 25, 2006 Report Share Posted December 25, 2006 Some of Volker's arguments re the introduction of menopausal syndrome as a disease category into CM in the 1960s hold water. However, his dismissal of the historical record in terms of equating the tian gui with kidney water is so simplistic and cursory as to make me wonder if there isn't a larger agenda here. Really authoritative CM practitioners back as far as the Ming have equated the tian gui with kidney water and this is the accepted standard interpretation in China today. So possiting that yin vacuity is the precipitating disease mechanism of menopause is not simply a modern, erroneous idea. Bob Flaws I understood was Mr. Scheid was saying differently than you did Bob. I read that he was making the point that whether Tian Gui is associated with Kidney Yin or not, 7 x 7 years should not be seen as a deficiency of Tian Gui or Kidneys unless such signs and symptoms are present. I have seen and been influenced by the idea that one should always treat the Kidneys when the symptoms are related to menopause in many books and articles and, like Volker, have had to learn to think for myself. For me, the main culprit for confusion in diagnosis is a culprit that was also born of the modern period Volker writes about. It is the organization of the modern texts. Most modern books are organized in a most unhelpful way that is misnamed " pattern differentiation " . A symptom or disease is named and then 4-7 possible " patterns " are listed. This is the modern phenomena that has most obstructed the ability of practitioners to diagnose properly. It is very rare that one is able to " find " one's patient in these repetitive lists. They rarely accurately reflect the clinical reality. They encourage the practitioner to try to find their patient's pattern in the list and thereby discourage the practitioner to develop their own diagnosis. Most of my students find themselves frustrated by these texts and rarely helped. Diagnosis is not taught in the schools, including the Chinese schools. What is taught in the schools here, with the exception of SIOM, is the party line, a packaged deal that we all bought. The fact that we don't know how to diagnose and the fact that the schools don't teach it has nothing to do with our mediocrity or inferiority - we just do the best with what we have and we are working constantly to improve and deepen. Since the Nei Jing, there has always been the recognition that there are different levels of insight and expertise among doctors. (Inferior, medium, and superior are the traditional ways of describing these levels). And I think we can say that, in reality, most practitioners fall into the inferior and medium (i.e., mediocre) categories in the same way that the majority of practitioners of any art will fall into those two categories. That's just the way bell curves operate. However, that is due to these practitioners' own innate intelligence and natures and acquired habits and proclivities rather than anything that has to do fundamentally with the medicine itself. I very much disagree with these comments and find them judgmental and potentially arrogant (unless you put yourself with the rest of us mediocre or inferior practitioners). Having taught students for years, I have found the majority of them to be intelligent, dedicated, wise, enthusiastic and frustrated with what they have been given. Perhaps it is the teacher or the curriculum, not the student, who is inferior when the students are unable to learn. Then again, perhaps what the Nei Jing is referring to is that all three levels are within each of us. I found Volker's article to be a breath of fresh air as he articulated what I have been thinking for years - what has been given to us is incomplete at best and is organized to confuse, not to teach. I have been watching Heiner's videos (http:// associates.classicalchinesemedicine.org) and am again relieved to find that indeed there is a medicine there behind the facade of what has been given to us. This is also why I appreciate books like Fluid Physiology and Pathology and Pathomechanisms of the Heart. They are designed to teach a give a broad sense of an area of our medicine. In his article Volker said that he had to learn to think for himself. My question is what does that mean? How do we learn to diagnose and treat if what has been given leads us in the wrong direction? This is our work in my opinion - to excavate, clarify, consider, study, listen and learn. Something starts to develop and we get better. Sharon Sharon Weizenbaum 86 Henry Street Amherst, MA 01002 413-549-4021 sweiz www.whitepinehealingarts.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 25, 2006 Report Share Posted December 25, 2006 Bob writes " Since the Nei Jing, there has always been the recognition that there are different levels of insight and expertise among doctors. (Inferior, medium, and superior are the traditional ways of describing these levels). And I think we can say that, in reality, most practitioners fall into the inferior and medium (i.e., mediocre) categories in the same way that the majority of practitioners of any art will fall into those two categories. That's just the way bell curves operate. However, that is due to these practitioners' own innate intelligence and natures and acquired habits and proclivities rather than anything that has to do fundamentally with the medicine itself. " I very much disagree with these comments and find them judgmental and potentially arrogant (unless you put yourself with the rest of us mediocre or inferior practitioners). Having taught students for years, I have found the majority of them to be intelligent, dedicated, wise, enthusiastic and frustrated with what they have been given. Perhaps it is the teacher or the curriculum, not the student, who is inferior when the students are unable to learn. Then again, perhaps what the Nei Jing is referring to is that all three levels are within each of us. I found Volker's article to be a breath of fresh air as he articulated what I have been thinking for years - what has been given to us is incomplete at best and is organized to confuse, not to teach. I have been watching Heiner's videos (http:// associates.classicalchinesemedicine.org) and am again relieved to find that indeed there is a medicine there behind the facade of what has been given to us. This is also why I appreciate books like Fluid Physiology and Pathology and Pathomechanisms of the Heart. They are designed to teach a give a broad sense of an area of our medicine. In his article Volker said that he had to learn to think for himself. My question is what does that mean? How do we learn to diagnose and treat if what has been given leads us in the wrong direction? This is our work in my opinion - to excavate, clarify, consider, study, listen and learn. Something starts to develop and we get better. Sharon Sharon Weizenbaum 86 Henry Street Amherst, MA 01002 413-549-4021 sweiz www.whitepinehealingarts.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 25, 2006 Report Share Posted December 25, 2006 On 12/25/06, sharon weizenbaum <sweiz wrote: > In his article Volker said that he had to learn to think for > himself. My question is what does that mean? How do we learn to > diagnose and treat if what has been given leads us in the wrong > direction? > I got the impression from the article that Volker was suggesting that we should do what so many of us forget to do, treat what we see. While treating menopausal syndrome via the Kidneys is certainly a default assumption, it is commonly usurped by other signs and symptoms. Tiande Yang at Emperors always says that " the patient is the teacher " suggesting that we can begin with a textbook strategy but ultimately, the patient's response is what matters the most. At one point, I asked him why none of the existing herb books include specific dosages, only ranges. Why don't any of the books describe dosages for instance like Chai Hu: use X grams for wind-heat, 2X grams for moving qi, and 3X grams for lifting clear yang. His response was that Chinese culture demands that practitioners figure this out on their own. Then the practitioner owns this information and can of course modify it to his or her unique patient population and treatment style. I then made some faces and unintelligible noises to express my frustration with Chinese medicine's lack of clarity on the subject of dosage. The only thing about this article that I couldn't quite understand was the socio-political usage of the word " colonization " . Although the author cites the original usage of this term in the present context, I still felt that it is unnecessarily charged emotionally. I do however get the impression that the larger trend in China is to devaluate traditional medicine when compared to biomedicine. Specifically when we get into the doctorine of signatures and other such traditional methods of approaching herbal medicines. -al. -- Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 25, 2006 Report Share Posted December 25, 2006 I too was bothered by the word colonilization. It's a bold choice of word and perhaps is more charged for us than need be. Another issue in the paper was the presump?ion that (based on Scheid's early practice) perimenopausal treatments don't work. Bob perceptively picked up on this and asked us to describe our own failures and successes. Still, it's a great article and should get us all thinking. I understand the idea of bian zheng or our pattern diagnosis has been under discussion in China for several years as well. By analyzing the difference between Li (principles) and Lilun (theory) as well as the use of the word colonilization perhaps Scheid is offering an escape route out of the dilemnia standardized TCM has found itself. doug > > The only thing about this article that I couldn't quite understand was the > socio-political usage of the word " colonization " . Although the author cites > the original usage of this term in the present context, I still felt that it > is unnecessarily charged emotionally. I do however get the impression that > the larger trend in China is to devaluate traditional medicine when compared > to biomedicine. Specifically when we get into the doctorine of signatures > and other such traditional methods of approaching herbal medicines. > > -al. > -- > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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