Jump to content
IndiaDivine.org

Menopausal syndrome: Volker's article

Rate this topic


Guest guest

Recommended Posts

Some of Volker's arguments re the introduction of menopausal syndrome

as a disease category into CM in the 1960s hold water. However, his

dismissal of the historical record in terms of equating the tian gui

with kidney water is so simplistic and cursory as to make me wonder if

there isn't a larger agenda here. Really authoritative CM

practitioners back as far as the Ming have equated the tian gui with

kidney water and this is the accepted standard interpretation in China

today. So possiting that yin vacuity is the precipitating disease

mechanism of menopause is not simply a modern, erroneous idea.

 

Bob Flaws

 

I understood was Mr. Scheid was saying differently than you did Bob.

I read that he was making the point that whether Tian Gui is

associated with Kidney Yin or not, 7 x 7 years should not be seen as

a deficiency of Tian Gui or Kidneys unless such signs and symptoms

are present. I have seen and been influenced by the idea that one

should always treat the Kidneys when the symptoms are related to

menopause in many books and articles and, like Volker, have had to

learn to think for myself.

 

For me, the main culprit for confusion in diagnosis is a culprit that

was also born of the modern period Volker writes about. It is the

organization of the modern texts. Most modern books are organized in

a most unhelpful way that is misnamed " pattern differentiation " . A

symptom or disease is named and then 4-7 possible " patterns " are

listed. This is the modern phenomena that has most obstructed the

ability of practitioners to diagnose properly. It is very rare that

one is able to " find " one's patient in these repetitive lists. They

rarely accurately reflect the clinical reality. They encourage the

practitioner to try to find their patient's pattern in the list and

thereby discourage the practitioner to develop their own diagnosis.

Most of my students find themselves frustrated by these texts and

rarely helped. Diagnosis is not taught in the schools, including the

Chinese schools. What is taught in the schools here, with the

exception of SIOM, is the party line, a packaged deal that we all

bought. The fact that we don't know how to diagnose and the fact

that the schools don't teach it has nothing to do with our mediocrity

or inferiority - we just do the best with what we have and we are

working constantly to improve and deepen.

 

Since the Nei Jing, there has always been the recognition that there

are different levels of insight and expertise among doctors.

(Inferior, medium, and superior are the traditional ways of describing

these levels). And I think we can say that, in reality, most

practitioners fall into the inferior and medium (i.e., mediocre)

categories in the same way that the majority of practitioners of any

art will fall into those two categories. That's just the way bell

curves operate. However, that is due to these practitioners' own

innate intelligence and natures and acquired habits and proclivities

rather than anything that has to do fundamentally with the medicine

itself.

 

I very much disagree with these comments and find them judgmental and

potentially arrogant (unless you put yourself with the rest of us

mediocre or inferior practitioners). Having taught students for

years, I have found the majority of them to be intelligent,

dedicated, wise, enthusiastic and frustrated with what they have been

given. Perhaps it is the teacher or the curriculum, not the student,

who is inferior when the students are unable to learn. Then again,

perhaps what the Nei Jing is referring to is that all three levels

are within each of us.

 

I found Volker's article to be a breath of fresh air as he

articulated what I have been thinking for years - what has been given

to us is incomplete at best and is organized to confuse, not to

teach. I have been watching Heiner's videos (http://

associates.classicalchinesemedicine.org) and am again relieved to

find that indeed there is a medicine there behind the facade of what

has been given to us. This is also why I appreciate books like Fluid

Physiology and Pathology and Pathomechanisms of the Heart. They are

designed to teach a give a broad sense of an area of our medicine.

 

In his article Volker said that he had to learn to think for

himself. My question is what does that mean? How do we learn to

diagnose and treat if what has been given leads us in the wrong

direction? This is our work in my opinion - to excavate, clarify,

consider, study, listen and learn. Something starts to develop and

we get better.

 

 

Sharon

 

 

 

Sharon Weizenbaum

86 Henry Street

Amherst, MA 01002

413-549-4021

sweiz

www.whitepinehealingarts.com

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bob writes

 

" Since the Nei Jing, there has always been the recognition that there

are different levels of insight and expertise among doctors.

(Inferior, medium, and superior are the traditional ways of describing

these levels). And I think we can say that, in reality, most

practitioners fall into the inferior and medium (i.e., mediocre)

categories in the same way that the majority of practitioners of any

art will fall into those two categories. That's just the way bell

curves operate. However, that is due to these practitioners' own

innate intelligence and natures and acquired habits and proclivities

rather than anything that has to do fundamentally with the medicine

itself. "

 

I very much disagree with these comments and find them judgmental and

potentially arrogant (unless you put yourself with the rest of us

mediocre or inferior practitioners). Having taught students for

years, I have found the majority of them to be intelligent,

dedicated, wise, enthusiastic and frustrated with what they have been

given. Perhaps it is the teacher or the curriculum, not the student,

who is inferior when the students are unable to learn. Then again,

perhaps what the Nei Jing is referring to is that all three levels

are within each of us.

 

I found Volker's article to be a breath of fresh air as he

articulated what I have been thinking for years - what has been given

to us is incomplete at best and is organized to confuse, not to

teach. I have been watching Heiner's videos (http://

associates.classicalchinesemedicine.org) and am again relieved to

find that indeed there is a medicine there behind the facade of what

has been given to us. This is also why I appreciate books like Fluid

Physiology and Pathology and Pathomechanisms of the Heart. They are

designed to teach a give a broad sense of an area of our medicine.

 

In his article Volker said that he had to learn to think for

himself. My question is what does that mean? How do we learn to

diagnose and treat if what has been given leads us in the wrong

direction? This is our work in my opinion - to excavate, clarify,

consider, study, listen and learn. Something starts to develop and

we get better.

 

Sharon

 

Sharon Weizenbaum

86 Henry Street

Amherst, MA 01002

413-549-4021

sweiz

www.whitepinehealingarts.com

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/25/06, sharon weizenbaum <sweiz wrote:

 

> In his article Volker said that he had to learn to think for

> himself. My question is what does that mean? How do we learn to

> diagnose and treat if what has been given leads us in the wrong

> direction?

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

I got the impression from the article that Volker was suggesting that we

should do what so many of us forget to do, treat what we see. While treating

menopausal syndrome via the Kidneys is certainly a default assumption, it is

commonly usurped by other signs and symptoms.

 

Tiande Yang at Emperors always says that " the patient is the teacher "

suggesting that we can begin with a textbook strategy but ultimately, the

patient's response is what matters the most.

 

At one point, I asked him why none of the existing herb books include

specific dosages, only ranges. Why don't any of the books describe dosages

for instance like Chai Hu: use X grams for wind-heat, 2X grams for moving

qi, and 3X grams for lifting clear yang. His response was that Chinese

culture demands that practitioners figure this out on their own. Then the

practitioner owns this information and can of course modify it to his or her

unique patient population and treatment style. I then made some faces and

unintelligible noises to express my frustration with Chinese medicine's lack

of clarity on the subject of dosage.

 

The only thing about this article that I couldn't quite understand was the

socio-political usage of the word " colonization " . Although the author cites

the original usage of this term in the present context, I still felt that it

is unnecessarily charged emotionally. I do however get the impression that

the larger trend in China is to devaluate traditional medicine when compared

to biomedicine. Specifically when we get into the doctorine of signatures

and other such traditional methods of approaching herbal medicines.

 

-al.

--

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I too was bothered by the word colonilization. It's a bold choice of word and

perhaps is

more charged for us than need be. Another issue in the paper was the presump?ion

that

(based on Scheid's early practice) perimenopausal treatments don't work. Bob

perceptively

picked up on this and asked us to describe our own failures and successes.

 

Still, it's a great article and should get us all thinking. I understand the

idea of bian zheng

or our pattern diagnosis has been under discussion in China for several years as

well. By

analyzing the difference between Li (principles) and Lilun (theory) as well as

the use of the

word colonilization perhaps Scheid is offering an escape route out of the

dilemnia

standardized TCM has found itself.

 

 

doug

>

> The only thing about this article that I couldn't quite understand was the

> socio-political usage of the word " colonization " . Although the author cites

> the original usage of this term in the present context, I still felt that it

> is unnecessarily charged emotionally. I do however get the impression that

> the larger trend in China is to devaluate traditional medicine when compared

> to biomedicine. Specifically when we get into the doctorine of signatures

> and other such traditional methods of approaching herbal medicines.

>

> -al.

> --

>

> Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

>

>

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...