earnings/potential of TCM herbology

[Guest guest]

Jack,

 

I've argued as much for years. Acupuncture needs to be separated from

TCM herbology in the public's mind. I generally agree with Todd

regarding his assessment of acupuncture, but am more optimistic

regarding TCM herbology - the fact that the TCM materia medica is

remarkably consistent in its details worldwide, and the fact that

tons of China research (even though the quality of much of this

research is doubtful) corroborate the traditional functions of many

Chinese herbs means that TCM herbology has a lot of potential to gain

credibility in the mind of the public, in spite of medical resistance

to polypharmacy - medical opinion does not drive the huge health food

and supplements market, rather, it is irrelevant. Acupuncture, on the

other hand, is fraught by hundreds of traditional variations, many of

the conflicting with each other in dogma. This is more characteristic

of religious belief than science. To continue insisting that

acupuncture and herbology should be joined at the hip will only

cripple both.

 

See for more info:

http://www.rmhiherbal.org/review/2004-2.html

Herbalist Review, Issue 2004 #2-A: Why TCM Herbology needs to become

an independent profession, separate from acupuncture

 

My biggest battle has been in educating potential students of their

options. Many have been convinced that the only " legal " way to

practice is to have a license of some sort, whereas among the western

herbalist community, the right to practice without a license is

commonly recognized. The acupuncture schools and their faculty have

been guilty of spreading the disinformation that one needs an

education from them plus an acupuncture license in order to be legal.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. It it obvious why they find it profitable to

spread this disinformation, however.

 

Another myopic tendency of Americans is to think that the U.S. sets

the trend. Herbal medicine has long been more accepted in Latin

America, and TCM herbology has the potential to make huge inroads

there. In Cuba, for example, it is rapidly becoming the standard, and

Chinese practitioners have worked closely with Cuban doctors and

herbalists to integrate it into their health care system, taking

advantage of local plants where possible. One of my former students

visited with several curanderos in the Mexican province of

Guadalajara, and after talking with them at length, discovered that

the indigenous herbal tradition of that region is based on

differentiation of symptom-sign patterns remarkably similar to that

of TCM. American naivete and media-induced derangements should not be

assumed to be the norm worldwide. I feel that TCM has the potential

to become the worldwide standard of herbal practice. Many countries

that have a strongly established indigenous herbal tradition are

beginning to recognize this. As China takes over Africa economically

and militarily, you can expect to see similar developments there.

 

---Roger Wicke PhD

Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute

website: http://www.rmhiherbal.org/

email: http://www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/

 

 

 

On 2006.Dec.25, at 08:27, wrote:

 

> 1b. Re: earnings

> Posted by: " Jack Sweeney " mojavecowboy mojavecowboy

> Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:06 pm ((PST))

>

:

>

> Your facts put the situation in clear perspective.

> While some achieve financial success as

> acupuncturists, those cases are probably few and far

> between.

>

> You wrote:

>

> " If I was starting over, I would just become an

> unlicensed herbalist like Roger Wicke. If I was into

> neuromuscular medicine, I would become a PT or

> chiropractor. "

>

> Perhaps the present educational and professional model

> needs a complete reversal. Acupuncture and herbs can

> essentially achieve the same results, so why should

> new students choose the most expensive path, which

> cannot guarantee professional success?

>

> At one point in this thread, someone mentioned the

> viable option of massage therapists who go on to study

> herbs or other techniques. Similarly, Tui Na and

> Shiatsu could be integrated into programs for

> herbalists, along with other less prominent but

> equally effective techniques of Chinese medicine.

> These could be integrated with programs for

> chiropractors and physical therapists.

>

> Acupuncturists would take the position at the top of

> the pyramid, reserved ideally for those with the

> greatest mastery of all of the medicine, but would

> probably work out in practice as the place reserved

> for those with enough personal capital to afford high

> tuition, pay insurance premiums and survive lean

> years.

>

> The medicine is wonderful, but inefficient and

> unworkable educational and professional models will

> not survive over the long term. Co-optation is not a

> solution, as the medicine needs to stand on its own

> merits and proceed from its own principles.

>

> Playing down the prominence of acupuncture might

> improve public perceptions of the medicine as a whole.

> The lesser the association with painful needles in the

> public's mind, perhaps the more the public will accept

> the medicine as a whole.

[Guest guest]

Roger,

While Chinese herbal medicine and acupuncture/moxabustion are

separate modalities, they are both part of Chinese medicine. It is

important to differentiate between them, in terms of theory,

principle, and source texts, but we still need the umbrella of

Chinese medicine to cover the body of knowledge that includes both,

along with dietetics, calasthenics, and lifestyle enhancement. As

Zhang Xi-chun expresses it, herbal medicine and acupuncture are tools

to teach our patients to safeguard their health and regulate their

body's qi transformation.

 

While I agree about the importance of herbal medicine, I see no

reason to denigrate acupuncture/moxabustion in promoting it.

Acupuncture/moxabustion has become popular in the West because it

clearly meets a need in health care, and for no other reason. While

there are a plethora of theories to explain it, one can still use the

classics such as the Nan Jing and Ling Shu as a basis for practice,

as well as many more modern Chinese and Japanese texts. A lot of the

problem around herbal medicine in the West is the incredible power

and influence of the pharmaceutical industry to bias the public.

 

 

On Dec 25, 2006, at 9:53 AM, Roger Wicke wrote:

 

> Jack,

>

> I've argued as much for years. Acupuncture needs to be separated from

> TCM herbology in the public's mind. I generally agree with Todd

> regarding his assessment of acupuncture, but am more optimistic

> regarding TCM herbology - the fact that the TCM materia medica is

> remarkably consistent in its details worldwide, and the fact that

> tons of China research (even though the quality of much of this

> research is doubtful) corroborate the traditional functions of many

> Chinese herbs means that TCM herbology has a lot of potential to gain

> credibility in the mind of the public, in spite of medical resistance

> to polypharmacy - medical opinion does not drive the huge health food

> and supplements market, rather, it is irrelevant. Acupuncture, on the

> other hand, is fraught by hundreds of traditional variations, many of

> the conflicting with each other in dogma. This is more characteristic

> of religious belief than science. To continue insisting that

> acupuncture and herbology should be joined at the hip will only

> cripple both.

>

> My biggest battle has been in educating potential students of their

> options. Many have been convinced that the only " legal " way to

> practice is to have a license of some sort, whereas among the western

> herbalist community, the right to practice without a license is

> commonly recognized. The acupuncture schools and their faculty have

> been guilty of spreading the disinformation that one needs an

> education from them plus an acupuncture license in order to be legal.

> Wrong, wrong, wrong. It it obvious why they find it profitable to

> spread this disinformation, however.

>

> Another myopic tendency of Americans is to think that the U.S. sets

> the trend. Herbal medicine has long been more accepted in Latin

> America, and TCM herbology has the potential to make huge inroads

> there. In Cuba, for example, it is rapidly becoming the standard, and

> Chinese practitioners have worked closely with Cuban doctors and

> herbalists to integrate it into their health care system, taking

> advantage of local plants where possible. One of my former students

> visited with several curanderos in the Mexican province of

> Guadalajara, and after talking with them at length, discovered that

> the indigenous herbal tradition of that region is based on

> differentiation of symptom-sign patterns remarkably similar to that

> of TCM. American naivete and media-induced derangements should not be

> assumed to be the norm worldwide. I feel that TCM has the potential

> to become the worldwide standard of herbal practice. Many countries

> that have a strongly established indigenous herbal tradition are

> beginning to recognize this. As China takes over Africa economically

> and militarily, you can expect to see similar developments there.

>

> ---Roger Wicke PhD

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

What's the legal requirement to practice herbal medicine in the US at

the moment?

 

Attilio

 

, Roger Wicke <rw2

wrote:

>

> Jack,

>

> I've argued as much for years. Acupuncture needs to be separated

from

> TCM herbology in the public's mind. I generally agree with Todd

> regarding his assessment of acupuncture, but am more optimistic

> regarding TCM herbology - the fact that the TCM materia medica is

> remarkably consistent in its details worldwide, and the fact that

> tons of China research (even though the quality of much of this

> research is doubtful) corroborate the traditional functions of

many

> Chinese herbs means that TCM herbology has a lot of potential to

gain

> credibility in the mind of the public, in spite of medical

resistance

> to polypharmacy - medical opinion does not drive the huge health

food

> and supplements market, rather, it is irrelevant. Acupuncture, on

the

> other hand, is fraught by hundreds of traditional variations, many

of

> the conflicting with each other in dogma. This is more

characteristic

> of religious belief than science. To continue insisting that

> acupuncture and herbology should be joined at the hip will only

> cripple both.

>

> See for more info:

> http://www.rmhiherbal.org/review/2004-2.html

> Herbalist Review, Issue 2004 #2-A: Why TCM Herbology needs to

become

> an independent profession, separate from acupuncture

>

> My biggest battle has been in educating potential students of

their

> options. Many have been convinced that the only " legal " way to

> practice is to have a license of some sort, whereas among the

western

> herbalist community, the right to practice without a license is

> commonly recognized. The acupuncture schools and their faculty

have

> been guilty of spreading the disinformation that one needs an

> education from them plus an acupuncture license in order to be

legal.

> Wrong, wrong, wrong. It it obvious why they find it profitable to

> spread this disinformation, however.

>

> Another myopic tendency of Americans is to think that the U.S.

sets

> the trend. Herbal medicine has long been more accepted in Latin

> America, and TCM herbology has the potential to make huge inroads

> there. In Cuba, for example, it is rapidly becoming the standard,

and

> Chinese practitioners have worked closely with Cuban doctors and

> herbalists to integrate it into their health care system, taking

> advantage of local plants where possible. One of my former

students

> visited with several curanderos in the Mexican province of

> Guadalajara, and after talking with them at length, discovered

that

> the indigenous herbal tradition of that region is based on

> differentiation of symptom-sign patterns remarkably similar to

that

> of TCM. American naivete and media-induced derangements should not

be

> assumed to be the norm worldwide. I feel that TCM has the

potential

> to become the worldwide standard of herbal practice. Many

countries

> that have a strongly established indigenous herbal tradition are

> beginning to recognize this. As China takes over Africa

economically

> and militarily, you can expect to see similar developments there.

>

> ---Roger Wicke PhD

> Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute

> website: http://www.rmhiherbal.org/

> email: http://www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/

>

>

>

> On 2006.Dec.25, at 08:27, wrote:

>

> > 1b. Re: earnings

> > Posted by: " Jack Sweeney " mojavecowboy mojavecowboy

> > Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:06 pm ((PST))

> >

> :

> >

> > Your facts put the situation in clear perspective.

> > While some achieve financial success as

> > acupuncturists, those cases are probably few and far

> > between.

> >

> > You wrote:

> >

> > " If I was starting over, I would just become an

> > unlicensed herbalist like Roger Wicke. If I was into

> > neuromuscular medicine, I would become a PT or

> > chiropractor. "

> >

> > Perhaps the present educational and professional model

> > needs a complete reversal. Acupuncture and herbs can

> > essentially achieve the same results, so why should

> > new students choose the most expensive path, which

> > cannot guarantee professional success?

> >

> > At one point in this thread, someone mentioned the

> > viable option of massage therapists who go on to study

> > herbs or other techniques. Similarly, Tui Na and

> > Shiatsu could be integrated into programs for

> > herbalists, along with other less prominent but

> > equally effective techniques of Chinese medicine.

> > These could be integrated with programs for

> > chiropractors and physical therapists.

> >

> > Acupuncturists would take the position at the top of

> > the pyramid, reserved ideally for those with the

> > greatest mastery of all of the medicine, but would

> > probably work out in practice as the place reserved

> > for those with enough personal capital to afford high

> > tuition, pay insurance premiums and survive lean

> > years.

> >

> > The medicine is wonderful, but inefficient and

> > unworkable educational and professional models will

> > not survive over the long term. Co-optation is not a

> > solution, as the medicine needs to stand on its own

> > merits and proceed from its own principles.

> >

> > Playing down the prominence of acupuncture might

> > improve public perceptions of the medicine as a whole.

> > The lesser the association with painful needles in the

> > public's mind, perhaps the more the public will accept

> > the medicine as a whole.

>

[Guest guest]

As long as somebody doesn't claim to diagnose or treat disease, they can

practice herbal medicine in the U.S. without a license. There are quite a

few herbalists in this country who do this, usually on a part-time basis. It

is actually more risky, in my opinion, for a TCM student to practice herbal

medicine without a license than it is for a lay herbalist. There are

acupunturists and chiropractors who will turn in a TCM student who practices

prematurely, while this rarely happens with lay herbalists, probably because

they aren't considered to be competition.

 

 

.............................................

Bill Schoenbart, L.Ac.

P.O. Box 8099

Santa Cruz, CA 95061

 

office phone: 831-335-3165

email: plantmed

.............................................

 

 

>>>>>What's the legal requirement to practice herbal medicine in the US at

the moment?

 

Attilio

>>>>>>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

On 12/25/06, Roger Wicke <rw2 wrote:

 

> My biggest battle has been in educating potential students of their

> options. Many have been convinced that the only " legal " way to

> practice is to have a license of some sort, whereas among the western

> herbalist community, the right to practice without a license is

> commonly recognized. The acupuncture schools and their faculty have

> been guilty of spreading the disinformation that one needs an

> education from them plus an acupuncture license in order to be legal.

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There may be disinformation out there, but I don't think anybody is guilty

of knowingly spreading it. In California, if you can't answer questions on

the herbal portion of the licensing exam, you can't get an acupuncture

license. This doesn't mean that you have to have a license to practice TCM

herbalism, but that you have to know herbs to get an acupuncture license.

Its a silly but significant difference.

 

I run into a lot of students who think that they *have* to take the NCCAOM

exam, when they really don't if they want to practice in California.

 

 

--

Al Stone L.Ac.

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Attilio,

 

The primary legal requirement, as is true for a lot of alternative

health practices, is to avoid " practicing medicine without a

license " . That turns out to be a simple thing to achieve, but a lot

of people are not aware of the details, which are summarized here:

 

http://www.rmhiherbal.org/a/f.ahr3.rights.html

The right to practice herbology, legal history and basis

 

http://www.rmhiherbal.org/a/f.ahr5.summ.html

Herbalists' guidelines for avoiding the practice of medicine

 

As long as one follows the preceding guidelines, there are no

licensure requirements. This is the situation in many countries

worldwide, especially those nations that are or were part of the

British Commonwealth and that have an English-style common law

tradition.

 

An increasing number of U.S. states have passed Health Freedom Acts,

which explicitly recognize the rights of alternative health

practioners like herbalists to practice free of licensure restrictions.

 

---Roger Wicke PhD

Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute

website: http://www.rmhiherbal.org/

email: http://www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/

 

 

 

On 2006.Dec.26, at 08:26, wrote:

 

> 2c. Re: earnings/potential of TCM herbology

> Posted by: " " attiliodalberto

> attiliodalberto

> Tue Dec 26, 2006 5:18 am ((PST))

>

> What's the legal requirement to practice herbal medicine in the US at

> the moment?

>

> Attilio

>

[Guest guest]

Roger, Bill and All,

 

I see, so the US law is largely based on Anglo-Saxon common law. I

read somewhere that herbalists in the UK where protected by a law

introduced by Henry VIII, although i can't say that's for sure.

 

What i do know, is that this English common law is no longer. A new

European directive has been introduced which rides over it. This new

European directive will be fully implemented by 2011 and will require

all herbalists to be licensed and regulated. For a full briefing on

this, see http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section.php?xSec=132

 

I believe this is a good thing for a number of reasons. It stops

anyone from saying they are a herbalist and danger patients, which

gives us all a bad name. It will improve standards as all herbalists

will have to undergo formal training. At the moment if any herb is

remotely dangerous, govt. agencies like the FDA or MHRA try to ban

it. This is not surprising as anyone can give it out. Once regulated,

we'll be in a stronger position to use those herbs under license.

We'll also get better access to primary care facilities and insurance

as well as research money. As part of regulation in the UK, language

requirement are being introduced, which will help protect patients

from those herbalists that cannot communicate to their patients. As

mentioned in previous threads, herbal pills are being sold over the

internet. Under new regulation, that will not be possible in Europe

and the UK.

 

I believe that in a few years, similar regulation proposals may be

introduced in the US. So this is a good `heads up'.

 

Attilio

www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

 

, Roger Wicke <rw2

wrote:

>

> Attilio,

>

> The primary legal requirement, as is true for a lot of alternative

> health practices, is to avoid " practicing medicine without a

> license " . That turns out to be a simple thing to achieve, but a

lot

> of people are not aware of the details, which are summarized here:

>

> http://www.rmhiherbal.org/a/f.ahr3.rights.html

> The right to practice herbology, legal history and basis

>

> http://www.rmhiherbal.org/a/f.ahr5.summ.html

> Herbalists' guidelines for avoiding the practice of medicine

>

> As long as one follows the preceding guidelines, there are no

> licensure requirements. This is the situation in many countries

> worldwide, especially those nations that are or were part of the

> British Commonwealth and that have an English-style common law

> tradition.

>

> An increasing number of U.S. states have passed Health Freedom

Acts,

> which explicitly recognize the rights of alternative health

> practioners like herbalists to practice free of licensure

restrictions.

>

> ---Roger Wicke PhD

> Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute

> website: http://www.rmhiherbal.org/

> email: http://www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/

>

>

>

> On 2006.Dec.26, at 08:26, wrote:

>

> > 2c. Re: earnings/potential of TCM herbology

> > Posted by: " " attiliodalberto

> > attiliodalberto

> > Tue Dec 26, 2006 5:18 am ((PST))

> >

> > What's the legal requirement to practice herbal medicine in the

US at

> > the moment?

> >

> > Attilio

> >

>