Guest guest Posted January 7, 2007 Report Share Posted January 7, 2007 Hi all, I will tell a little from Norway, how the situation is here. Only 10% of all who take an education in acupuncture, are able to even make it work properly. Of the 10% who cam get good results, at least 50% quit in a few years, because they don't earn enough money. Of the rest, which I am one, the few who are left earn quite good money. Are Are Simeon Thoresen arethore http://home.online.no/~arethore/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2007 Report Share Posted January 7, 2007 Z'ev, While i FEEL the same to some extent i think a " believers mind " is not a reliable witness. It is not the way to separate reality from projected and hopeful vision. I have seen many thousands of pt happy with what they get and also seen many thousands of pt both in US and China happy for the attention they get but with little or no objective benefits. Because we are a young profession it is even more important to not succumb to a defensive MindSet which does not allow one to truly evaluate what one witnesses. I suggest, for example, any time one has a thought such as " but WM is " to step back and realize this is a defensive stance. We are a young profession and we do not yet know what the true benefits and failures of CM as applied to our pt population. Unfortunately schools do not support and have NO mechanisms to develop critical thinking in students. There is no followup built in to our school clinics. No attempt to separate objective changes and subjective feelings of patients, no systemic laboratory or other objective followup required. Until we do such things we will never know what is the real influence of our medicine on our pt. The development of a critical medical mind is very complex. It requires a broad knowledge of disease processes, the ability and WILLINGNESS to document subjective changes, and most importantly a lack of attachment to the medicine. A very difficult state for anyone depending on the medicine for a living and identity. We have a long way to go. Oakland, CA 94609 - Saturday, January 06, 2007 6:21 PM Re: Re: why acupuncturist don't make it Karen, I agree that students and new graduates should not expect an instant practice or job placement upon graduation, and that the schools should be both more honest about work prospects and more selective in choosing their students. I know that there are major problems in our field, major problems with the schools, and that they won't just go away. I also agree with Sharon that we are a young profession, and that we need to be patient and work hard but positively to help it grow. My major disagreement with Todd is in the value of the traditional Chinese medicine itself. I have treated many thousands of patients, and seen great benefits to most of them, even as I've suffered through setbacks and failures over the years. I think the theoretical foundations of Chinese medicine are sound and time- tested. I don't think we need to wait for 'evidence' to confirm that Chinese medicine works. That doesn't mean I am against innovation, studies or carefully considered integrative medical efforts. I just don't want to see Chinese medicine biomedicalized or completely submerged to the point where it disappears from the world stage. On Jan 6, 2007, at 9:51 AM, Karen Vaughan wrote: > Z'ev, > > As a relatively new practitioner, who is working in a saturated > market, > I have to say I appreciate Todd's honesty. Frankly I wish I had seen > more discussion of this when I first started school. Between the > time I > first applied and graduated, wages for non-entrepreneurial > acupuncturists fell by half and the number of schools pouring out > graduates increased. And the tuition money I set aside before starting > never matched the significant climb in tuition so I ended up with more > debt than I anticipated. Despite compiling an inventory of equipment > and some useful sidelines while I was in school and taking Honora's > course, I found that I was unprepared to compete. > > I do think it important to make clear at the very beginning that > students should be prepared to be entrepreneurial, to have > sidelines to > support the business during downtimes, to budget and to effectively > generate new business. If it discourages some students, all the better > since they will know before they are deep in debt, having lost four > years of potential wages based on inaccurate assumptions. It would > not have prevented me from enrolling because I was called to the > profession, but I also attended with students who were enrolled in > anticipation of a more lucrative profession than it turns out to be. > > -- > Karen Vaughan, MSTOM > Licensed Acupuncturist, and Herbalist > 253 Garfield Place > Brooklyn, NY 11215 > > (718) 622-6755 > > Co-Conspirator to Make the World A Better Place: Visithttp:// > www.heroicstories.com/ and join the conspiracy > See my Acupuncture and Herbs website at: http:// > ksvaughan2.byregion.net/ > And my website at Avon Walk for Breast Cancer 2005 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2007 Report Share Posted January 8, 2007 Way to go Joy - It must be the Ramona location - Let's get together offline and compare those metrics. I think there is great validity in what you purport. I firmly believe that opening my own practice was the best move I could have made - I spent 15 years working in the business world in San Diego achieving nothing but intense migraines that thanks to acupuncture and chinese herbs (Thank you Todd) are now part of my history. In 3 years I have built a busy practice in a beautiful area of the country - as Zev said, embracing all the tenets of . I took a salary after 18 mos and gave myself a pay raise this year. I moved to SD - a state that has no laws regulating acupuncture, no insurance that covers treatment, no pent up demand, and yet I am desparate to hire 1 or 2 full time practioners - who just want to practice the medicine and earn a substantial income ($50-80k within 2 years). And guess what - I can't seem to attract interested, qualified, quality candidates. I don't believe that I am a superior practitioner - quite frankly - I would love to go back to school for the rest of my life and study this medicine forever - there is so much it has to offer. But I am committed to my business, to serving the community, helping patients with their imbalances or simply helping them move on to the next realm of existence. Passion for the medicine drives me, commitment to the business supports that passion. You need both! Kayte Halstead, Dipl OM Acupuncture 4 Health, Inc www.acupuncture4health.us , " Joy Keller " <JKellerLAc wrote: > > On 1/4/07, < wrote: > > > > Mark > > > > I hope people will toot their own horns here is they have anything to > > toot. However, I have to admit that it is my intent to dissuade people from > > making what I consider to be the worst mistake of my entire life....[sNIPPED > > POST] > > . > > > > > > > > > Dear Todd (et al), > > > > As a relatively new practitioner, I have of course been following this > thread fairly closely. As one of your former students, you know that I hold > you in high regard and consider you one of my most influential teachers. One > of the things I admire about you is your insistence on encouraging critical > thinking and debate by ensuring both sides of an issue are thoroughly > analyzed and included in the discussion and that information is not simply > discarded because it is unpleasant. So, thank you for continuing to bring > your passion to this discussion. Although you have admitted your bias and > may feel residual anger and perhaps bitterness, I like to think you are > still just trying to look out for us in your own unique way - as any good > teacher would! > > > > In general, I do think success or failure has more to do with the individual > as opposed to a particular profession on the whole. On the other hand, it > seems you have much more input from a larger body of students giving you > feedback (not to mention others on this list) on their experiences and that > information provides valuable data as well. However, I don't believe that an > objective analysis of the data has been completed such that one can make any > conclusions as to the " why " and I certainly don't think it has been proven > to be something inherent to this profession. I'm not saying that the data > won't show that, only that it hasn't been done yet. > > > > Its situations such as these that I fall back to my very early days when I > was first starting out in the tech industry and was working as a quality > engineer. At the time, it was my job to apply metrics to processes to > determine objectively whether the process was improving or interfering with > productivity. To me, this is a more meaningful way of looking at data that > contains a large subjective component. When I was able to " prove " to > management that the software developer's complaints regarding a particular > development process actually had an impact on their productivity based on a > metrical analysis of the problem and could show where the problem actually > was, then the process could be improved. Productivity increased, developers > were happy and management was able to make effective change. Otherwise it > was just noise without any meaningful interpretation or identified action. > > > > I am suggesting that perhaps the 100+ reports from former students > expressing their frustration at not being successful in this profession > could benefit from applying some metrics to the data to see what we can > learn from it. After all, that's what this discussion should ultimately lead > to, in my opinion. > > > > This is a diametric discussion. Success. Failure. Each with individual > interpretations. You say it is your goal to dissuade others from making the > same mistake you made. Perhaps what made it a mistake for you (and that > makes me so sad to type), doesn't apply to all situations. Or, perhaps it, > as you wrote, is not a good profession choice for someone who doesn't enjoy > the day-to-day people-angle of private practice. > > > > Perhaps it has to do with age of the student relative to their life > experience, business savvy, ability to survive in an entrepreneurial > environment, willingness to seek out opportunities to lecture to their > community, volunteer with community events, etc. There are also some very > important demographic metrics that could be applied such as age of student > upon admission, age of student upon graduation, previous occupation, years > spent in previous occupation, completion of undergrad vs. assoc, debt to > income ratio upon graduation, city/state/location, sole practitioner vs. > group practice, independent contractor vs. clinic owner, married/partner vs. > single (goes to additional sources of income while establishing one's self), > children/no children, etc. > > > > There are many, many contributing factors (i.e., metrics) that can be > applied to this situation so that we can begin to truly understand what > makes one successful vs. non-successful. > > > > As for where am I with regards to establishing a new practice? Happy. I've > been out of school for just about 2 years, but I didn't start my own clinic > till a year ago January 1, 2006. I was able to leave PCOM-SD without > incurring any student-related debt, a result of forward planning on my part > before leaving my previous established career. I am basically on target with > where I expected to be by this time – although in all honesty, I've missed a > few projections. But I think that's normal. I've also made some mistakes > (biggest one is I should have started marketing about 5 months before I > actually did, but I was overwhelmed with starting a new business and just > didn't get to it). I am working full-time at my clinic and am not > moonlighting in any other industry. I've made it through the first year > where most new businesses fail, so I think that speaks to the overall health > of the business in general. > > > > I enjoy my patients. I have some very interesting cases that keep me on my > toes and my nose in the books (which I love). I work with herbs every day. I > enjoy my business model and the way I've chosen to run it. I spend 2 hours > w/ most new patients and an hour+ with return patients (primarily because I > have a love of external herb application and usually am doing something > along those lines in addition to acupx). I don't rush an herbal formula - if > I need more time to review the case and mull over someone's Rx, then I do it > and have them come back to pick it up or I mail it out. Hopefully over time > I can speed this up, but for now I take my time. None of my patient's have > complained and instead are appreciative that I am willing to spend time on > their case. > > > > I love my clinic space (1252 sq ft w/ 4 tx rooms, exercise/injury rehab > space, office, kitchen & bathroom) and have plans to incorporate community > related projects. I don't like having to charge money but do it anyway (and > I've been known to write off a patient's balance from time to time). I would > like a front office person to deal with that, but that probably won't happen > for another year. I do not yet have anyone else sharing space with me, but > hope to find a massage therapist and either a pilates/yoga/tai chi > instructor this year as independent contractors. But I'm not financially > dependent on finding that in order to keep the clinic doors open, so I feel > good about that. > > > > I haven't technically paid myself this past year, but I think that's normal > for a first year as well (and probably why some people fail – you have to be > able to sustain yourself during the establishment period). My debt burden is > relatively low as I am mostly self-funded – I've only got about $9k in debt > right now (doesn't mean personal money isn't tight, just that my debt is > low). I haven't made it to the 5-year mark where some stats suggest most of > us bail out, but I don't expect to be bailing anytime soon. Am I successful? > Maybe by some standards yes and others no. Like I said, I'm happy. > Toot-toot;-) > > > > Ever grateful to have been your student, > > Joy Keller > > ________ > Joy Keller, LAc, Dipl.OM > Board Certified in Acupuncture & Oriental Medicine > Ramona Acupuncture & Oriental Medicine Clinic > Phone: (760) 654-1040 Fax: (760) 654-4019 > www.RamonaAcupuncture.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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