Felix Mann's ³Scientific Aspects of Acupuncture²

January 27, 2007

Thanks Phil.

do you know when this was written? It really beings me back to my school

days. His were the only books that were published at the time, and they were

hard to get.

And also- I really appreciate your forwards of research links. Thanks for

your effort

Cara

Cara O. Frank, R.Ac, Dipl Ac & Ch.H.

President China Herb Company of the Chinese Herb Program

Tai Sophia Institute of the Healing Arts

215-438-2977

Fax 215-849-3338

<

Sat, 27 Jan 2007 17:16:20 +0000

<Pa-l >, <PVA-L >,

Cc: <Traditional Chinese Herbal Medicine >

Felix Mann's ³Scientific Aspects of Acupuncture²

Hi All,

Felix Mann's book, " Scientific Aspects of Acupuncture " (72pp) is free on

WWW as a pdf file at http://www.felixmann.co.uk/Scientific_Acupunture.pdf

but there are a few typos in the file.

Best regards,

January 27, 2007

Yes Phil

I wanted to seconds Cara's thanks,

I always look forward to your herbal abstracts, saves me a lot of time

thanks,

Warren Cargal

acuatlanta.net

>

> Cara Frank <herbbabe

> 2007/01/27 Sat PM 04:40:30 EST

>

> Re: Felix Mann's ³Scientific Aspects of

> Acupuncture²

>

> Thanks Phil.

> do you know when this was written? It really beings me back to my school

> days. His were the only books that were published at the time, and they were

> hard to get.

>

> And also- I really appreciate your forwards of research links. Thanks for

> your effort

>

> Cara

>

> Cara O. Frank, R.Ac, Dipl Ac & Ch.H.

> President China Herb Company

> Director of the Chinese Herb Program

> Tai Sophia Institute of the Healing Arts

> 215-438-2977

> Fax 215-849-3338

>

> <

>

> Sat, 27 Jan 2007 17:16:20 +0000

> <Pa-l >, <PVA-L >,

> <Chinese Medicine >

> Cc: <Traditional Chinese Herbal Medicine >

> Felix Mann's ³Scientific Aspects of Acupuncture²

>

> Hi All,

>

> Felix Mann's book, " Scientific Aspects of Acupuncture " (72pp) is free on

> WWW as a pdf file at http://www.felixmann.co.uk/Scientific_Acupunture.pdf

> but there are a few typos in the file.

>

> Best regards,

>

January 27, 2007

I think this book was written in the 70's. These days, Dr. Mann is

an adamant opponent of acupuncture practiced by use of channel

theory, yin yang, or five phase.

On Jan 27, 2007, at 1:40 PM, Cara Frank wrote:

> Thanks Phil.

> do you know when this was written? It really beings me back to my

> school

> days. His were the only books that were published at the time, and

> they were

> hard to get.

>

> And also- I really appreciate your forwards of research links.

> Thanks for

> your effort

>

> Cara

>

> Cara O. Frank, R.Ac, Dipl Ac & Ch.H.

> President China Herb Company

> Director of the Chinese Herb Program

> Tai Sophia Institute of the Healing Arts

> 215-438-2977

> Fax 215-849-3338

>

> <

>

> Sat, 27 Jan 2007 17:16:20 +0000

> <Pa-l >, <PVA-L >,

> <Chinese Medicine >

> Cc: <Traditional Chinese Herbal Medicine >

> Felix Mann's ³Scientific Aspects of Acupuncture²

>

> Hi All,

>

> Felix Mann's book, " Scientific Aspects of Acupuncture " (72pp) is

> free on

> WWW as a pdf file at http://www.felixmann.co.uk/

> Scientific_Acupunture.pdf

> but there are a few typos in the file.

>

> Best regards,

>

January 27, 2007

Zev

do you know what he is doing these days?

Oakland, CA 94609

-

Saturday, January 27, 2007 6:28 PM

Re: Felix Mann's ³Scientific Aspects of Acupuncture²

I think this book was written in the 70's. These days, Dr. Mann is

an adamant opponent of acupuncture practiced by use of channel

theory, yin yang, or five phase.

On Jan 27, 2007, at 1:40 PM, Cara Frank wrote:

> Thanks Phil.

> do you know when this was written? It really beings me back to my

> school

> days. His were the only books that were published at the time, and

> they were

> hard to get.

>

> And also- I really appreciate your forwards of research links.

> Thanks for

> your effort

>

> Cara

>

> Cara O. Frank, R.Ac, Dipl Ac & Ch.H.

> President China Herb Company

> Director of the Chinese Herb Program

> Tai Sophia Institute of the Healing Arts

> 215-438-2977

> Fax 215-849-3338

>

> <

>

> Sat, 27 Jan 2007 17:16:20 +0000

> <Pa-l >, <PVA-L >,

> <Chinese Medicine >

> Cc: <Traditional Chinese Herbal Medicine >

> Felix Mann's ³Scientific Aspects of Acupuncture²

>

> Hi All,

>

> Felix Mann's book, " Scientific Aspects of Acupuncture " (72pp) is

> free on

> WWW as a pdf file at http://www.felixmann.co.uk/

> Scientific_Acupunture.pdf

> but there are a few typos in the file.

>

> Best regards,

>

January 27, 2007

nope. .

Z'ev

On Jan 27, 2007, at 6:42 PM, wrote:

> Zev

> do you know what he is doing these days?

>

> Oakland, CA 94609

>

> -

>

> Saturday, January 27, 2007 6:28 PM

> Re: Felix Mann's ³Scientific Aspects of Acupuncture²

>

> I think this book was written in the 70's. These days, Dr. Mann is

> an adamant opponent of acupuncture practiced by use of channel

> theory, yin yang, or five phase.

>

> On Jan 27, 2007, at 1:40 PM, Cara Frank wrote:

>

> > Thanks Phil.

> > do you know when this was written? It really beings me back to my

> > school

> > days. His were the only books that were published at the time, and

> > they were

> > hard to get.

> >

> > And also- I really appreciate your forwards of research links.

> > Thanks for

> > your effort

> >

> > Cara

> >

> > Cara O. Frank, R.Ac, Dipl Ac & Ch.H.

> > President China Herb Company

> > Director of the Chinese Herb Program

> > Tai Sophia Institute of the Healing Arts

> > 215-438-2977

> > Fax 215-849-3338

> >

> > <

> >

> > Sat, 27 Jan 2007 17:16:20 +0000

> > <Pa-l >, <PVA-L >,

> > <Chinese Medicine >

> > Cc: <Traditional Chinese Herbal Medicine >

> > Felix Mann's ³Scientific Aspects of Acupuncture²

> >

> > Hi All,

> >

> > Felix Mann's book, " Scientific Aspects of Acupuncture " (72pp) is

> > free on

> > WWW as a pdf file at http://www.felixmann.co.uk/

> > Scientific_Acupunture.pdf

> > but there are a few typos in the file.

> >

> > Best regards,

> >

January 28, 2007

His website is http://www.felixmann.co.uk/

doug

, " " <zrosenbe

wrote:

>

> nope. .

>

> Z'ev

> On Jan 27, 2007, at 6:42 PM, wrote:

>

> > Zev

> > do you know what he is doing these days?

> >

January 28, 2007

If channels, y/y, and 5 phase are out, what on earth is left?

Cara O. Frank, R.Ac, Dipl Ac & Ch.H.

President China Herb Company of the Chinese Herb Program

Tai Sophia Institute of the Healing Arts

215-438-2977

Fax 215-849-3338

<zrosenbe

Sat, 27 Jan 2007 18:28:14 -0800

Re: Felix Mann's ³Scientific Aspects of Acupuncture²

I think this book was written in the 70's. These days, Dr. Mann is

an adamant opponent of acupuncture practiced by use of channel

theory, yin yang, or five phase.

On Jan 27, 2007, at 1:40 PM, Cara Frank wrote:

> Thanks Phil.

> do you know when this was written? It really beings me back to my

> school

> days. His were the only books that were published at the time, and

> they were

> hard to get.

>

> And also- I really appreciate your forwards of research links.

> Thanks for

> your effort

>

> Cara

>

> Cara O. Frank, R.Ac, Dipl Ac & Ch.H.

> President China Herb Company

> Director of the Chinese Herb Program

> Tai Sophia Institute of the Healing Arts

> 215-438-2977

> Fax 215-849-3338

>

> < <%40eircom.net> >

> <

<%40> >

> Sat, 27 Jan 2007 17:16:20 +0000

> <Pa-l <Pa-l%40> >,

<PVA-L <PVA-L%40> >,

> <Chinese Medicine

> Cc: <Traditional Chinese Herbal Medicine

> Felix Mann's ³Scientific Aspects of Acupuncture²

>

> Hi All,

>

> Felix Mann's book, " Scientific Aspects of Acupuncture " (72pp) is

> free on

> WWW as a pdf file at http://www.felixmann.co.uk/

> Scientific_Acupunture.pdf

> but there are a few typos in the file.

>

> Best regards,

>

January 28, 2007

Oh boy- it¹s really inflammatory. Check it out.

Cara

Sun, 28 Jan 2007 08:01:50 +0000

Re: Felix Mann's ³Scientific Aspects of Acupuncture²

His website is http://www.felixmann.co.uk/

doug

<%40> , " "

<zrosenbe wrote:

>

> nope. .

>

> Z'ev

> On Jan 27, 2007, at 6:42 PM, wrote:

>

> > Zev

> > do you know what he is doing these days?

> >

January 28, 2007

A 'scientific' acupuncture with no relationship to the logical,

inductive tools of mainstream Chinese medicine.

On Jan 28, 2007, at 5:57 AM, Cara Frank wrote:

> If channels, y/y, and 5 phase are out, what on earth is left?

January 29, 2007

All,

Please note, Felix Mann is not saying that acupuncture does not work.

All he is saying is that most, if not all, Chinese medical theory is

not necessary to make it work. This idea is a growing trend, even in

China. I highly recommend seeing Dr. Ma's Biomedical Acupuncture in

Pain Management for a Chinese take on this same issue. I would also

point out to any who immediately jump to dis Dr. Mann that he was one

of the first Westerners to embrace acupuncture (this time around) and

has 4-5 decades of clinical experience. His books (on Chinese medical

theory and acupuncture) were seminal for me 30 years ago. As I have

intimated previously, I also have come to the same conclusions about

acupuncture (although not about Chinese herbal medicine, at least not

yet).

Bob

, Cara Frank <herbbabe

wrote:

>

> If channels, y/y, and 5 phase are out, what on earth is left?

>

> Cara O. Frank, R.Ac, Dipl Ac & Ch.H.

> President China Herb Company

> Director of the Chinese Herb Program

> Tai Sophia Institute of the Healing Arts

> 215-438-2977

> Fax 215-849-3338

>

> <zrosenbe

>

> Sat, 27 Jan 2007 18:28:14 -0800

>

> Re: Felix Mann's ³Scientific Aspects of Acupuncture²

>

> I think this book was written in the 70's. These days, Dr. Mann is

> an adamant opponent of acupuncture practiced by use of channel

> theory, yin yang, or five phase.

>

> On Jan 27, 2007, at 1:40 PM, Cara Frank wrote:

>

> > Thanks Phil.

> > do you know when this was written? It really beings me back to my

> > school

> > days. His were the only books that were published at the time, and

> > they were

> > hard to get.

> >

> > And also- I really appreciate your forwards of research links.

> > Thanks for

> > your effort

> >

> > Cara

> >

> > Cara O. Frank, R.Ac, Dipl Ac & Ch.H.

> > President China Herb Company

> > Director of the Chinese Herb Program

> > Tai Sophia Institute of the Healing Arts

> > 215-438-2977

> > Fax 215-849-3338

> >

> > < <%40eircom.net> >

> > <

> <%40> >

> > Sat, 27 Jan 2007 17:16:20 +0000

> > <Pa-l <Pa-l%40> >,

> <PVA-L <PVA-L%40> >,

> > <Chinese Medicine

> <Chinese Medicine%40> >

> > Cc: <Traditional Chinese Herbal Medicine

> <Traditional Chinese Herbal Medicine%40> >

> > Felix Mann's ³Scientific Aspects of Acupuncture²

> >

> > Hi All,

> >

> > Felix Mann's book, " Scientific Aspects of Acupuncture " (72pp) is

> > free on

> > WWW as a pdf file at http://www.felixmann.co.uk/

> > Scientific_Acupunture.pdf

> > but there are a few typos in the file.

> >

> > Best regards,

> >

January 29, 2007

Bob,

I also relied on Dr. Mann's books for my studies around the same

time, and have great respect for his work. After all, he studied

medical Chinese in order to translate his writings. However, any

discussion we have on CHA, in my mind, may not be able to cover all

the epistemological as well as clinical arguments that are raised by

Dr. Mann's conclusions.

It is a given that one can practice acupuncture/moxabustion from

a biomedical framework. After all, scalp acupuncture, for example,

is entirely based on neuro-anatomical concepts. I personally don't

oppose this. My position is simply that our profession continues to

have the freedom of choice to use systematic correspondence theories

to practice acupuncture/moxa, herbal medicine, and diagnosis now and

in the future. For myself, the theories are more important than the

technologies used, and that is my own bias. I see medicine as much

an art as a science, and present trends in medicine seem to be moving

away from the art aspect, despite recent articles in the media to the

contrary.

Dr. Mann, however, in stating that Chinese medical theory is,

quote, unquote, " flat-earth theory " , seems to imply that channel

theory, yin and yang and five phase theories are 'mostly

irrelevant'. Therefore, he is abandoning the basis of traditional

acupuncture theories for a neurophysiological model. Since channel

theory and zang xiang/visceral manifestation are core principles of

both acupuncture and herbal medicine, their refutation eliminates the

core of what the practice of Chinese medicine stands on. (For those

unfamiliar with visceral manifestation, it is the concept that

internal pathology can be viewed on the surface of the body in

symptoms and signs, and is one of the keys to the development of

channel theory.)

Neurophysiology, as any neurologist or neuroscientist will tell

you, is still fraught with many mysteries. The nervous system is not

easy to understand, and in practical therapeutics, the treatment of

pain is still quite challenging. Our understanding of the brain,

according to neuroscience, is still in its infancy. So some of the

confidence of biomedical practitioners who are using these approaches

in therapy may be premature.

We are already in our field at a tremendous disadvantage. It is

difficult to teach people how to think in terms of systematic

correspondence and apply it to clinical practice. Whereas biomedical

models and ideas are easily accessible to anyone who chooses to study

them, both in the West and Asia. This is why I feel it is so

important to have individuals who are dedicated to the study of the

classical medicine of China in order for it to survive.

Bob, I apologize if I've expanded the scope of your e-mail and

this discussion beyond what you or others intended. But this is what

runs through my mind every time this issue is raised. I feel the

imperative to share it with others.

On Jan 29, 2007, at 8:05 AM, Bob Flaws wrote:

> All,

>

> Please note, Felix Mann is not saying that acupuncture does not work.

> All he is saying is that most, if not all, Chinese medical theory is

> not necessary to make it work. This idea is a growing trend, even in

> China. I highly recommend seeing Dr. Ma's Biomedical Acupuncture in

> Pain Management for a Chinese take on this same issue. I would also

> point out to any who immediately jump to dis Dr. Mann that he was one

> of the first Westerners to embrace acupuncture (this time around) and

> has 4-5 decades of clinical experience. His books (on Chinese medical

> theory and acupuncture) were seminal for me 30 years ago. As I have

> intimated previously, I also have come to the same conclusions about

> acupuncture (although not about Chinese herbal medicine, at least not

> yet).

>

> Bob

>

> , Cara Frank <herbbabe

> wrote:

> >

> > If channels, y/y, and 5 phase are out, what on earth is left?

> >

> > Cara O. Frank, R.Ac, Dipl Ac & Ch.H.

> > President China Herb Company

> > Director of the Chinese Herb Program

> > Tai Sophia Institute of the Healing Arts

> > 215-438-2977

> > Fax 215-849-3338

> >

> > <zrosenbe

> >

> > Sat, 27 Jan 2007 18:28:14 -0800

> >

> > Re: Felix Mann's ³Scientific Aspects of Acupuncture²

> >

> > I think this book was written in the 70's. These days, Dr. Mann is

> > an adamant opponent of acupuncture practiced by use of channel

> > theory, yin yang, or five phase.

> >

> > On Jan 27, 2007, at 1:40 PM, Cara Frank wrote:

> >

> > > Thanks Phil.

> > > do you know when this was written? It really beings me back to my

> > > school

> > > days. His were the only books that were published at the time, and

> > > they were

> > > hard to get.

> > >

> > > And also- I really appreciate your forwards of research links.

> > > Thanks for

> > > your effort

> > >

> > > Cara

> > >

> > > Cara O. Frank, R.Ac, Dipl Ac & Ch.H.

> > > President China Herb Company

> > > Director of the Chinese Herb Program

> > > Tai Sophia Institute of the Healing Arts

> > > 215-438-2977

> > > Fax 215-849-3338

> > >

> > > < <%

> 40eircom.net> >

> > > <

> > <%40> >

> > > Sat, 27 Jan 2007 17:16:20 +0000

> > > <Pa-l <Pa-l%40> >,

> > <PVA-L <PVA-L%40> >,

> > > <Chinese Medicine

> > <Chinese Medicine%40> >

> > > Cc: <Traditional Chinese Herbal Medicine

> > <Traditional Chinese Herbal Medicine%40> >

> > > Felix Mann's ³Scientific Aspects of Acupuncture²

> > >

> > > Hi All,

> > >

> > > Felix Mann's book, " Scientific Aspects of Acupuncture " (72pp) is

> > > free on

> > > WWW as a pdf file at http://www.felixmann.co.uk/

> > > Scientific_Acupunture.pdf

> > > but there are a few typos in the file.

> > >

> > > Best regards,

> > >

January 29, 2007

Therefore, he is abandoning the basis of traditional

acupuncture theories for a neurophysiological model.

>>>>

I think Dr Mann is taking a clinical approach to his arguments. He clearly

states that he just could not verify and actually found evidence to the contrary

about the channels etc. This is a very uncomfortable question for us as a

profession but one that we must face with critical thinking. The truth is that

almost all of the studies that used " real " vs random puncture can only find no

or little difference. The other observation he has is that da qi and " channel "

sensations can be better explained by referred pain something i personally agree

with.

Oakland, CA 94609

-

Monday, January 29, 2007 12:07 PM