Can Chinese medicine cure cancer (or better, reverse the cancer process)?

February 7, 2007

Dear Warren,

With all due respect, I don't believe that you are correct. I strongly

believe that CM, when used as an integrative combination of herbs, acupuncture,

diet therapy, body work, exercise therapy, and some form of meditation

integrating body and spirit, is able to completely reverse some forms of cancer.

However, a lot has to do with the patient, and their state of health,

physically, mentally and emotionally. Unfortunately, we have two serious

problems: A powerful cancer industry that doesn't want us to butt in and as

this discussing has implied: a lack of experienced, competent, and brave

practitioners, willing to give the cancer patient not just their wisdom, but

their time as well. Remember, that our medicine is in its infancy here in the

west. I suspect the dynamics and politics will be dramatically different in

5-10 years.

Yehuda

wcargal9 wrote:

I wanted to share my experience about using CM for cancer. Recently my

wife was dx w/ breast cancer and the tx recommendation was mastectomy. I

immediately did an index medicus and found much good research about herbs w/

cancer cytotoxic effects and anti proliferations effects.

I also contacted numerous people doing clinical research w/ herbs along w/

several people on the cancer list. Everyone I sp w/ was very clear in stating

that CM is not a primary method of tx for cancer. The primary modes remain

surgery, chemo and radiation. All of the people I sp w/ who are working w/

oncologist are using herbs to strengthen the qi, blood or immune system prior or

post surgery. Primarly b/c they had no postive result using herbs to reduce or

elimate tumors.

This may be the limitations of our medicine. I think it is good to build a list

of professional contacts who are working in this field, however it is also

important to recognize what we can and cannot treat. CM remains an adjunct

therapy in this context.

Warren Cargal

>

> Stephen Bonzak <stephenbonzak

> 2007/02/07 Wed PM 05:39:15 EST

>

> Re: Re: Cancer Referral List (Was Cancer Herbs)

>

> Bob-

>

> There is a Dr. Zhengang Guo here in Chicago who is a medical oncologist

> and a TCM herbalist. His contact info is below.

>

> In Chicago:

>

> 2131 S. Archer Ave. Suite B

> Chicago IL 60616

>

> In Westmont:

>

> 665 Pasquinelli, Unit 203

> Westmont, IL 60559

>

> -Steve

>

> On Feb 7, 2007, at 10:12 AM, Bob Flaws wrote:

>

> > Doug,

> >

> > Can you send me the contact information for the Chinese doctors you

> > mentioned? I'd like this list to be a s user-friendly as possible.

> >

> > Bob

> >

> > , " "

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > Bob, thanks again for the posts and getting us moving again.

> > >

> > > I would suggest any one interested in or who has cancer patients get

> > the book, Restored

> > > Harmony: An Evidence Based Approach for Integrating Traditional

> > into

> > > Complementary Cancer Care by Stephen Hagar as a consumer level book

> > for cancer

> > > patients.

> > >

> > > I think those of us that have stayed near the schools where we

> > trained would recommend

> > > our teachers. Certainly Huabing Wen in my case and as Yehuda would

> > agree, Ji Zhang in

> > > Los Angeles are just two more than capable practitioners.

> > >

> > > As you alluded to, patients often find us rather than us seeking

> > them. Of course, if one is

> > > advertising some kind of speciality that has one has little training

> > in then you are being

> > > un-ethical if not just dangerous. Most of my cancer patients have

> > come to me because I

> > > am me, they were friends or friends of friends or somehow trusted me

> > and wouldn't have

> > > gone to someone else. Of course, I always sought out advice from

> > " old doctors " on difficult

> > > cases of all stripes. Actually I've had a fair amount of post

> > graduate training including

> > > some time in a oncology department in Beijing so I feel I can raise

> > the devils advocate

> > > arguement. I would never claim to be a cancer specialist but I am

> > not going to turn away

> > > from the challenge. Now hear me out.

> > >

> > > Do I feel comfortable or capable taking a patient through all the

> > processes? Yes and no. I

> > > say that because most of the struggle of the cancer patients that I

> > have seen are being

> > > pulled in various directions. I've lost patients in the vital months

> > who have gone for

> > > purging - detoxifying in Mexico. Just as the one I saw recently who

> > was being pulled into

> > > macrobiotics - (and has resisted it, I've now heard).

> > > Perhaps he has been lost to another practitioner who has more

> > enthusiasm for a cure, but

> > > in my mind, a lot less knowledge. (Here in LA I can mention one or

> > two supposed cancer

> > > specialists who everybody else basically see as frauds.) Those first

> > visits from the patients

> > > can set the stage for how the patient can see the possibilities and

> > limitations of the

> > > medicine.

> > >

> > > I've also co-treated with supposed expert Chinese doctors who give

> > up out of fear or lack

> > > of knowledge or sensitivity when the decision of surgery has been

> > set. I'm sure it is not the

> > > case with our own " expert list " but actually the " integrated "

> > backgrounds are often a

> > > detriment for many of our colleagues. Outside of the hospital

> > setting they can get lost.

> > > Although we have to be educated and realistic we also have to

> > comprehend what our

> > > patients are asking from us. And that often is to work our magic.

> > And part of that magic is

> > > to point them in the right direction to the best practitioner but

> > also to guide them through

> > > the processes that they might not get from a less trusted

> > practitioner.

> > >

> > > I think I am saying all of this because although I am glad to see

> > the number of cancer

> > > specialists around the country, I don't think we should be saying to

> > less experienced

> > > practitioners that they shouldn't see patients who have cancer.

> > Certainly even an

> > > experienced veteran like Z'ev sends the patients out to a trusted

> > expert. The less

> > > experienced practitioner must know always their own limitations. But

> > none of us should

> > > turn away patients and be fearful at confronting the unknown. We

> > should fulfill our basic

> > > responsibility to help other people and sometimes that means keeping

> > a patient close and

> > > sometimes it means sending them to others. Most often it is a

> > mixture of the two.

> > >

> > > anyway....

> > > doug

> > >

> >

> Stephen Bonzak, L.Ac., Dipl. C.H.

> sbonzak

> 773-470-6994

>

February 7, 2007

Yehuda

Remember that in china japan and Korea CM is secondary in the treatment of CA

-

yehuda frischman

Wednesday, February 07, 2007 6:46 PM

Can Chinese medicine cure cancer (or better, reverse the cancer

process)?

Dear Warren,

With all due respect, I don't believe that you are correct. I strongly believe

that CM, when used as an integrative combination of herbs, acupuncture, diet

therapy, body work, exercise therapy, and some form of meditation integrating

body and spirit, is able to completely reverse some forms of cancer. However, a

lot has to do with the patient, and their state of health, physically, mentally

and emotionally. Unfortunately, we have two serious problems: A powerful cancer

industry that doesn't want us to butt in and as this discussing has implied: a

lack of experienced, competent, and brave practitioners, willing to give the

cancer patient not just their wisdom, but their time as well. Remember, that our

medicine is in its infancy here in the west. I suspect the dynamics and politics

will be dramatically different in 5-10 years.

Yehuda

wcargal9 wrote:

I wanted to share my experience about using CM for cancer. Recently my wife

was dx w/ breast cancer and the tx recommendation was mastectomy. I immediately

did an index medicus and found much good research about herbs w/ cancer

cytotoxic effects and anti proliferations effects.

I also contacted numerous people doing clinical research w/ herbs along w/

several people on the cancer list. Everyone I sp w/ was very clear in stating

that CM is not a primary method of tx for cancer. The primary modes remain

surgery, chemo and radiation. All of the people I sp w/ who are working w/

oncologist are using herbs to strengthen the qi, blood or immune system prior or

post surgery. Primarly b/c they had no postive result using herbs to reduce or

elimate tumors.

This may be the limitations of our medicine. I think it is good to build a

list of professional contacts who are working in this field, however it is also

important to recognize what we can and cannot treat. CM remains an adjunct

therapy in this context.

Warren Cargal

>

> Stephen Bonzak <stephenbonzak

> 2007/02/07 Wed PM 05:39:15 EST

>

> Re: Re: Cancer Referral List (Was Cancer Herbs)

>

> Bob-

>

> There is a Dr. Zhengang Guo here in Chicago who is a medical oncologist

> and a TCM herbalist. His contact info is below.

>

> In Chicago:

>

> 2131 S. Archer Ave. Suite B

> Chicago IL 60616

>

> In Westmont:

>

> 665 Pasquinelli, Unit 203

> Westmont, IL 60559

>

> -Steve

>

> On Feb 7, 2007, at 10:12 AM, Bob Flaws wrote:

>

> > Doug,

> >

> > Can you send me the contact information for the Chinese doctors you

> > mentioned? I'd like this list to be a s user-friendly as possible.

> >

> > Bob

> >

> > , " "

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > Bob, thanks again for the posts and getting us moving again.

> > >

> > > I would suggest any one interested in or who has cancer patients get

> > the book, Restored

> > > Harmony: An Evidence Based Approach for Integrating Traditional

> > into

> > > Complementary Cancer Care by Stephen Hagar as a consumer level book

> > for cancer

> > > patients.

> > >

> > > I think those of us that have stayed near the schools where we

> > trained would recommend

> > > our teachers. Certainly Huabing Wen in my case and as Yehuda would

> > agree, Ji Zhang in

> > > Los Angeles are just two more than capable practitioners.

> > >

> > > As you alluded to, patients often find us rather than us seeking

> > them. Of course, if one is

> > > advertising some kind of speciality that has one has little training

> > in then you are being

> > > un-ethical if not just dangerous. Most of my cancer patients have

> > come to me because I

> > > am me, they were friends or friends of friends or somehow trusted me

> > and wouldn't have

> > > gone to someone else. Of course, I always sought out advice from

> > " old doctors " on difficult

> > > cases of all stripes. Actually I've had a fair amount of post

> > graduate training including

> > > some time in a oncology department in Beijing so I feel I can raise

> > the devils advocate

> > > arguement. I would never claim to be a cancer specialist but I am

> > not going to turn away

> > > from the challenge. Now hear me out.

> > >

> > > Do I feel comfortable or capable taking a patient through all the

> > processes? Yes and no. I

> > > say that because most of the struggle of the cancer patients that I

> > have seen are being

> > > pulled in various directions. I've lost patients in the vital months

> > who have gone for

> > > purging - detoxifying in Mexico. Just as the one I saw recently who

> > was being pulled into

> > > macrobiotics - (and has resisted it, I've now heard).

> > > Perhaps he has been lost to another practitioner who has more

> > enthusiasm for a cure, but

> > > in my mind, a lot less knowledge. (Here in LA I can mention one or

> > two supposed cancer

> > > specialists who everybody else basically see as frauds.) Those first

> > visits from the patients

> > > can set the stage for how the patient can see the possibilities and

> > limitations of the

> > > medicine.

> > >

> > > I've also co-treated with supposed expert Chinese doctors who give

> > up out of fear or lack

> > > of knowledge or sensitivity when the decision of surgery has been

> > set. I'm sure it is not the

> > > case with our own " expert list " but actually the " integrated "

> > backgrounds are often a

> > > detriment for many of our colleagues. Outside of the hospital

> > setting they can get lost.

> > > Although we have to be educated and realistic we also have to

> > comprehend what our

> > > patients are asking from us. And that often is to work our magic.

> > And part of that magic is

> > > to point them in the right direction to the best practitioner but

> > also to guide them through

> > > the processes that they might not get from a less trusted

> > practitioner.

> > >

> > > I think I am saying all of this because although I am glad to see

> > the number of cancer

> > > specialists around the country, I don't think we should be saying to

> > less experienced

> > > practitioners that they shouldn't see patients who have cancer.

> > Certainly even an

> > > experienced veteran like Z'ev sends the patients out to a trusted

> > expert. The less

> > > experienced practitioner must know always their own limitations. But

> > none of us should

> > > turn away patients and be fearful at confronting the unknown. We

> > should fulfill our basic

> > > responsibility to help other people and sometimes that means keeping

> > a patient close and

> > > sometimes it means sending them to others. Most often it is a

> > mixture of the two.

> > >

> > > anyway....

> > > doug

> > >

> >

> Stephen Bonzak, L.Ac., Dipl. C.H.

> sbonzak

> 773-470-6994

>

February 8, 2007

Yes, of course, Alon. But remember, in the Orient, that which is from the West,

especially America, is exotic and desirable. That is why the majority of young

people, particularly in China are much more interested in Western allopathic

medicine. It's also where the big money is, and in burgeoning capitalistic

China, money comes before tradition (at least from what I hear speaking to those

from China and following the media). Why do you think that so many masters

" retire " to America--$$! That is why, I would suggest,Traditional Chinese

cancer treatments are secondary or adjunct to Western treatments, such as

Chemo, radiation and surgery, because they are just not as sexy nor Yuan

generating. Level the playing field, both in terms of research funds and

scientific method application and I would wager that things would be different

there.

Y

Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: