Guest guest Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 Dear Doug and all, I will just add a couple of personal antecdotes, that I think I've related before: My sister-in-law came down with non-Hodgekin's lymphoma 8 years ago. She was a fighter, a single mom who against all odds, raised 4 children from three different fathers, and little or no support from any of the fathers. She chose to go the Western route, not in the least bit interested in what Chinese or any other non-Western allopathic route had to offer her, after all, how could she possibly think of experimenting and taking a chance with alternative, flakey, unproven methods, right? Her life was in danger, right? Well, to make a long story short, she had chemo and radiation and " beat " the cancer! Hurray! Right? Wrong. 5 years after she was in complete remission, she came down with leukemia (her oncologist remarked in passing that that was one of the risks of chemo, which poisons the blood. Oh well!) and had a rapid and painful death. It is my firm conviction, and I'll affirm again, what I stated before, that cancer is rarely just a disease of the body. Rather, it is the result of a pathological imbalance of the emotions, spirit and thought processes as well. As a patient of mine told me a year before she died: " If I can connect my heart to my occiput I will live. " She wasn't able to. Sincerely, Yehuda wrote: Warren, sorry to hear about your wife's diagnosis. In response to your post and others I would say that we would be (immoral) fools to suggest to patients that they only do CM. I think everyone is clear about that. We may be an adjunct therapy but I believe we are a vital one. Better than most if not all out there. WM's therapies are not always a cure as we know. We can help them achieve better success. In response to Alon, last time in Beijing I saw patients who had come from all corners of the country to see the proverbial big doctor in the Capital City. These people were not taking CM lightly. They had probably spent everything they had to get there for a few minutes of these doctors time and prescriptions. So I wouldn't be dismissive of what means to the Chinese. What I was told there was that many times, and it is the best to be hoped for, was that when surgery was done the tumor sites were found to be necrotic. I have found that in my limited experience when the patients had aggresively taken herbs and operations were made, the tumors have been smaller than expected. Perhaps that is what meant by knowing what you can treat. We can't promise anything but I still think we achieve results that no other therapy can. And certainly patients with cancer need all the help they can get. doug , <wcargal9 wrote: > > I wanted to share my experience about using CM for cancer. Recently my wife was dx w/ breast cancer and the tx recommendation was mastectomy. I immediately did an index medicus and found much good research about herbs w/ cancer cytotoxic effects and anti proliferations effects. > > I also contacted numerous people doing clinical research w/ herbs along w/ several people on the cancer list. Everyone I sp w/ was very clear in stating that CM is not a primary method of tx for cancer. The primary modes remain surgery, chemo and radiation. All of the people I sp w/ who are working w/ oncologist are using herbs to strengthen the qi, blood or immune system prior or post surgery. Primarly b/c they had no postive result using herbs to reduce or elimate tumors. > > This may be the limitations of our medicine. I think it is good to build a list of professional contacts who are working in this field, however it is also important to recognize what we can and cannot treat. CM remains an adjunct therapy in this context. > > Warren Cargal > > http://traditionaljewishmedicine.com/ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Mail Beta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 Dearest Yehuda, Cancer brings us face to face w/ the great unknown, just how little we are in control of our life. Your statement " It is my firm conviction, and I'll affirm again, what I stated before, that cancer is rarely just a disease of the body. Rather, it is the result of a pathological imbalance of the emotions, spirit and thought processes as well. As a patient of mine told me a year before she died: " If I can connect my heart to my occiput I will live. " She wasn't able to " , represents our attempt to maintain some sense of control in these overwhelming circumstances. If I was to take your statement and apply it to my wife, it brings in a certain spiritual arrogance, i.e. if she would only correct her spiritual, emotional thoughts processes she would be well. That implies a deep judgment of her life, her beauty and moreso implies that I know what is best for her path. I don't know and I surrender to what is here in my life. There is no other place to be, no heart to connect to the occiput, just fully here in the present. I am sorry to hear about your sister, I know she must have been a bright light in your life. Warren _____ On Behalf Of yehuda frischman Thursday, February 08, 2007 5:23 AM Cancer pathogenesis Dear Doug and all, I will just add a couple of personal antecdotes, that I think I've related before: My sister-in-law came down with non-Hodgekin's lymphoma 8 years ago. She was a fighter, a single mom who against all odds, raised 4 children from three different fathers, and little or no support from any of the fathers. She chose to go the Western route, not in the least bit interested in what Chinese or any other non-Western allopathic route had to offer her, after all, how could she possibly think of experimenting and taking a chance with alternative, flakey, unproven methods, right? Her life was in danger, right? Well, to make a long story short, she had chemo and radiation and " beat " the cancer! Hurray! Right? Wrong. 5 years after she was in complete remission, she came down with leukemia (her oncologist remarked in passing that that was one of the risks of chemo, which poisons the blood. Oh well!) and had a rapid and painful death. It is my firm conviction, and I'll affirm again, what I stated before, that cancer is rarely just a disease of the body. Rather, it is the result of a pathological imbalance of the emotions, spirit and thought processes as well. As a patient of mine told me a year before she died: " If I can connect my heart to my occiput I will live. " She wasn't able to. Sincerely, Yehuda <taiqi (AT) taiqi (DOT) <taiqi%40taiqi.com> com> wrote: Warren, sorry to hear about your wife's diagnosis. In response to your post and others I would say that we would be (immoral) fools to suggest to patients that they only do CM. I think everyone is clear about that. We may be an adjunct therapy but I believe we are a vital one. Better than most if not all out there. WM's therapies are not always a cure as we know. We can help them achieve better success. In response to Alon, last time in Beijing I saw patients who had come from all corners of the country to see the proverbial big doctor in the Capital City. These people were not taking CM lightly. They had probably spent everything they had to get there for a few minutes of these doctors time and prescriptions. So I wouldn't be dismissive of what means to the Chinese. What I was told there was that many times, and it is the best to be hoped for, was that when surgery was done the tumor sites were found to be necrotic. I have found that in my limited experience when the patients had aggresively taken herbs and operations were made, the tumors have been smaller than expected. Perhaps that is what meant by knowing what you can treat. We can't promise anything but I still think we achieve results that no other therapy can. And certainly patients with cancer need all the help they can get. doug @ <%40> , <wcargal9 wrote: > > I wanted to share my experience about using CM for cancer. Recently my wife was dx w/ breast cancer and the tx recommendation was mastectomy. I immediately did an index medicus and found much good research about herbs w/ cancer cytotoxic effects and anti proliferations effects. > > I also contacted numerous people doing clinical research w/ herbs along w/ several people on the cancer list. Everyone I sp w/ was very clear in stating that CM is not a primary method of tx for cancer. The primary modes remain surgery, chemo and radiation. All of the people I sp w/ who are working w/ oncologist are using herbs to strengthen the qi, blood or immune system prior or post surgery. Primarly b/c they had no postive result using herbs to reduce or elimate tumors. > > This may be the limitations of our medicine. I think it is good to build a list of professional contacts who are working in this field, however it is also important to recognize what we can and cannot treat. CM remains an adjunct therapy in this context. > > Warren Cargal > > http://traditionalj <http://traditionaljewishmedicine.com/> ewishmedicine.com/ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Mail Beta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 It is my firm conviction, and I'll affirm again, what I stated before, that cancer is rarely just a disease of the body. Rather, it is the result of a pathological imbalance of the emotions, spirit and thought processes as well. As a patient of mine told me a year before she died: " If I can connect my heart to my occiput I will live. " She wasn't able to. Sincerely, Yehuda Does that mean that if you die from cancer you have failed to be spiritually and emotionally whole? Sharon Weizenbaum 86 Henry Street Amherst, MA 01002 413-549-4021 sweiz www.whitepinehealingarts.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 Your statement " It is my firm conviction, and I'll affirm again, what I stated before, that cancer is rarely just a disease of the body. Rather, it is the result of a pathological imbalance of the emotions, spirit and thought processes as well. As a patient of mine told me a year before she died: " If I can connect my heart to my occiput I will live. " She wasn't able to " , represents our attempt to maintain some sense of control in these overwhelming circumstances. If I was to take your statement and apply it to my wife, it brings in a certain spiritual arrogance, i.e. if she would only correct her spiritual, emotional thoughts processes she would be well. That implies a deep judgment of her life, her beauty and moreso implies that I know what is best for her path. I don't know and I surrender to what is here in my life. There is no other place to be, no heart to connect to the occiput, just fully here in the present. I am sorry to hear about your sister, I know she must have been a bright light in your life. Warren I am in whole hearted agreement with you Warren. Illness comes with having a body - why, how and to whom it comes has a mysterious component that we don't have to solve. People who do Chinese medicine as part of their care die and people who rely solely on Western models can live long healthy lives. How can we have an attitude that if we our patients do it right then they won't be sick. We have to help our patients find the treatment protocols they feel best with, allow them to make their own decisions, offer our services if they are wanted and then leave the rest up to the mystery. What a bummer for a patient to feel from anyone a judgement that they are sick because they are not connected enough or have not made the right choices. Illness and death are not the great failures but rather, they are the great unavoidables. Sometimes I get the sense that as practitioners we tend to blame our patients for their bad habits, their attitudes, their choices as a way to 1. cope with the lack of control we have and 2. to avoid responsibility for our own treatments not helping. What if we let our patients not heed our advice, support them for organizing their own timeline for adjusting their life habits and treat them as best we can anyway? Sharon Sharon Weizenbaum 86 Henry Street Amherst, MA 01002 413-549-4021 sweiz www.whitepinehealingarts.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 Sharon I cant agree more with you. Also, much of the assumption we often make are purely dogmatic belief systems. The cause of any illness in any particular pt is almost always a mystery. Lets not forget that many people who abuse there bodies in the most egregious ways never get sick and many with clean and spiritual lives get sick all the time - sharon weizenbaum Thursday, February 08, 2007 9:16 AM Re: Cancer pathogenesis Your statement " It is my firm conviction, and I'll affirm again, what I stated before, that cancer is rarely just a disease of the body. Rather, it is the result of a pathological imbalance of the emotions, spirit and thought processes as well. As a patient of mine told me a year before she died: " If I can connect my heart to my occiput I will live. " She wasn't able to " , represents our attempt to maintain some sense of control in these overwhelming circumstances. If I was to take your statement and apply it to my wife, it brings in a certain spiritual arrogance, i.e. if she would only correct her spiritual, emotional thoughts processes she would be well. That implies a deep judgment of her life, her beauty and moreso implies that I know what is best for her path. I don't know and I surrender to what is here in my life. There is no other place to be, no heart to connect to the occiput, just fully here in the present. I am sorry to hear about your sister, I know she must have been a bright light in your life. Warren I am in whole hearted agreement with you Warren. Illness comes with having a body - why, how and to whom it comes has a mysterious component that we don't have to solve. People who do Chinese medicine as part of their care die and people who rely solely on Western models can live long healthy lives. How can we have an attitude that if we our patients do it right then they won't be sick. We have to help our patients find the treatment protocols they feel best with, allow them to make their own decisions, offer our services if they are wanted and then leave the rest up to the mystery. What a bummer for a patient to feel from anyone a judgement that they are sick because they are not connected enough or have not made the right choices. Illness and death are not the great failures but rather, they are the great unavoidables. Sometimes I get the sense that as practitioners we tend to blame our patients for their bad habits, their attitudes, their choices as a way to 1. cope with the lack of control we have and 2. to avoid responsibility for our own treatments not helping. What if we let our patients not heed our advice, support them for organizing their own timeline for adjusting their life habits and treat them as best we can anyway? Sharon Sharon Weizenbaum 86 Henry Street Amherst, MA 01002 413-549-4021 sweiz www.whitepinehealingarts.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 Yeguda At the same time, 14 yr ago my motherinlaw also came down with purely diff lymphoma which was discovered in stage IV. She did a very high dose CHOP chemo and is still alive and well - yehuda frischman Thursday, February 08, 2007 2:22 AM Cancer pathogenesis Dear Doug and all, I will just add a couple of personal antecdotes, that I think I've related before: My sister-in-law came down with non-Hodgekin's lymphoma 8 years ago. She was a fighter, a single mom who against all odds, raised 4 children from three different fathers, and little or no support from any of the fathers. She chose to go the Western route, not in the least bit interested in what Chinese or any other non-Western allopathic route had to offer her, after all, how could she possibly think of experimenting and taking a chance with alternative, flakey, unproven methods, right? Her life was in danger, right? Well, to make a long story short, she had chemo and radiation and " beat " the cancer! Hurray! Right? Wrong. 5 years after she was in complete remission, she came down with leukemia (her oncologist remarked in passing that that was one of the risks of chemo, which poisons the blood. Oh well!) and had a rapid and painful death. It is my firm conviction, and I'll affirm again, what I stated before, that cancer is rarely just a disease of the body. Rather, it is the result of a pathological imbalance of the emotions, spirit and thought processes as well. As a patient of mine told me a year before she died: " If I can connect my heart to my occiput I will live. " She wasn't able to. Sincerely, Yehuda wrote: Warren, sorry to hear about your wife's diagnosis. In response to your post and others I would say that we would be (immoral) fools to suggest to patients that they only do CM. I think everyone is clear about that. We may be an adjunct therapy but I believe we are a vital one. Better than most if not all out there. WM's therapies are not always a cure as we know. We can help them achieve better success. In response to Alon, last time in Beijing I saw patients who had come from all corners of the country to see the proverbial big doctor in the Capital City. These people were not taking CM lightly. They had probably spent everything they had to get there for a few minutes of these doctors time and prescriptions. So I wouldn't be dismissive of what means to the Chinese. What I was told there was that many times, and it is the best to be hoped for, was that when surgery was done the tumor sites were found to be necrotic. I have found that in my limited experience when the patients had aggresively taken herbs and operations were made, the tumors have been smaller than expected. Perhaps that is what meant by knowing what you can treat. We can't promise anything but I still think we achieve results that no other therapy can. And certainly patients with cancer need all the help they can get. doug , <wcargal9 wrote: > > I wanted to share my experience about using CM for cancer. Recently my wife was dx w/ breast cancer and the tx recommendation was mastectomy. I immediately did an index medicus and found much good research about herbs w/ cancer cytotoxic effects and anti proliferations effects. > > I also contacted numerous people doing clinical research w/ herbs along w/ several people on the cancer list. Everyone I sp w/ was very clear in stating that CM is not a primary method of tx for cancer. The primary modes remain surgery, chemo and radiation. All of the people I sp w/ who are working w/ oncologist are using herbs to strengthen the qi, blood or immune system prior or post surgery. Primarly b/c they had no postive result using herbs to reduce or elimate tumors. > > This may be the limitations of our medicine. I think it is good to build a list of professional contacts who are working in this field, however it is also important to recognize what we can and cannot treat. CM remains an adjunct therapy in this context. > > Warren Cargal > > http://traditionaljewishmedicine.com/ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Mail Beta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 Does that mean that if you die from cancer you have failed to be spiritually and emotionally whole? I have no idea, and it's certainly not for me to say, but what I would contend is that the presentation of cancer is a wake up call for the patient to examine his or her relationship with their body, mind, emotions and spirit. I think that it is informative that cancer cells have defective mitchondria and do not function according to the citric acid cycle necessary for healthy cellular respiration as normal cells do. A cancer cell is forced to produce lactic acid and this process, like a runaway train, spreads to surrounding cells. The formerly healthy cells change their method of energy production and these cells degenerate and become cancerous. But by changing the body bioenergetically, biomechanically and biochemically, by retraining the patient's mind as well as their body, addressing their emotional repression, their spirit and generally the way they think, the patient can affect a change in their millieu or terrain, the body chemistry can become completely different, and the cancer process can be reversed. Sharon, it is inappropriate for me to answer, I just don't know enough, probably never will, but I would say that cancer doesn't occur suddenly in a vacuum. The process developing this malfunctioning of cellular respiration usually takes years to develop and it is its pathogenesis which needs to be closely examined on a case by case basis, exploring the whole person and not just the mechanical body. Sincerely, Yehuda Frischman sharon weizenbaum <sweiz wrote: It is my firm conviction, and I'll affirm again, what I stated before, that cancer is rarely just a disease of the body. Rather, it is the result of a pathological imbalance of the emotions, spirit and thought processes as well. As a patient of mine told me a year before she died: " If I can connect my heart to my occiput I will live. " She wasn't able to. Sincerely, Yehuda Frischman Does that mean that if you die from cancer you have failed to be spiritually and emotionally whole? Sharon Weizenbaum 86 Henry Street Amherst, MA 01002 413-549-4021 sweiz www.whitepinehealingarts.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 Dear Warren, Please forgive any hurt that may have been felt by my letter, but I wanted to emphasize the tremendous importance of deeply exploring within, when faced with cancer, either as patients, friends, lovers or practitioners, and to not view it as an isolated mechanical dysfunction in the body's plumbing or electrical system. You are right that it is the great unknown, and like the ocean all we can see superficially is what is on the surface. But we must attempt to explore the dark, deep unknown in order to have a chance to change what has been given to us. It's very, very hard, painful work, and takes tremendous,support to explore deep inside, but there's no other acceptable alternative, in my opinion. May your wife have a complete and speedy recovery, Sincerely, Yehuda Warren Cargal <wcargal9 wrote: Dearest Yehuda, Cancer brings us face to face w/ the great unknown, just how little we are in control of our life. Your statement " It is my firm conviction, and I'll affirm again, what I stated before, that cancer is rarely just a disease of the body. Rather, it is the result of a pathological imbalance of the emotions, spirit and thought processes as well. As a patient of mine told me a year before she died: " If I can connect my heart to my occiput I will live. " She wasn't able to " , represents our attempt to maintain some sense of control in these overwhelming circumstances. If I was to take your statement and apply it to my wife, it brings in a certain spiritual arrogance, i.e. if she would only correct her spiritual, emotional thoughts processes she would be well. That implies a deep judgment of her life, her beauty and moreso implies that I know what is best for her path. I don't know and I surrender to what is here in my life. There is no other place to be, no heart to connect to the occiput, just fully here in the present. I am sorry to hear about your sister, I know she must have been a bright light in your life. Warren _____ On Behalf Of yehuda frischman Thursday, February 08, 2007 5:23 AM Cancer pathogenesis Dear Doug and all, I will just add a couple of personal antecdotes, that I think I've related before: My sister-in-law came down with non-Hodgekin's lymphoma 8 years ago. She was a fighter, a single mom who against all odds, raised 4 children from three different fathers, and little or no support from any of the fathers. She chose to go the Western route, not in the least bit interested in what Chinese or any other non-Western allopathic route had to offer her, after all, how could she possibly think of experimenting and taking a chance with alternative, flakey, unproven methods, right? Her life was in danger, right? Well, to make a long story short, she had chemo and radiation and " beat " the cancer! Hurray! Right? Wrong. 5 years after she was in complete remission, she came down with leukemia (her oncologist remarked in passing that that was one of the risks of chemo, which poisons the blood. Oh well!) and had a rapid and painful death. It is my firm conviction, and I'll affirm again, what I stated before, that cancer is rarely just a disease of the body. Rather, it is the result of a pathological imbalance of the emotions, spirit and thought processes as well. As a patient of mine told me a year before she died: " If I can connect my heart to my occiput I will live. " She wasn't able to. Sincerely, Yehuda <taiqi (AT) taiqi (DOT) <taiqi%40taiqi.com> com> wrote: Warren, sorry to hear about your wife's diagnosis. In response to your post and others I would say that we would be (immoral) fools to suggest to patients that they only do CM. I think everyone is clear about that. We may be an adjunct therapy but I believe we are a vital one. Better than most if not all out there. WM's therapies are not always a cure as we know. We can help them achieve better success. In response to Alon, last time in Beijing I saw patients who had come from all corners of the country to see the proverbial big doctor in the Capital City. These people were not taking CM lightly. They had probably spent everything they had to get there for a few minutes of these doctors time and prescriptions. So I wouldn't be dismissive of what means to the Chinese. What I was told there was that many times, and it is the best to be hoped for, was that when surgery was done the tumor sites were found to be necrotic. I have found that in my limited experience when the patients had aggresively taken herbs and operations were made, the tumors have been smaller than expected. Perhaps that is what meant by knowing what you can treat. We can't promise anything but I still think we achieve results that no other therapy can. And certainly patients with cancer need all the help they can get. doug @ <%40> , <wcargal9 wrote: > > I wanted to share my experience about using CM for cancer. Recently my wife was dx w/ breast cancer and the tx recommendation was mastectomy. I immediately did an index medicus and found much good research about herbs w/ cancer cytotoxic effects and anti proliferations effects. > > I also contacted numerous people doing clinical research w/ herbs along w/ several people on the cancer list. Everyone I sp w/ was very clear in stating that CM is not a primary method of tx for cancer. The primary modes remain surgery, chemo and radiation. All of the people I sp w/ who are working w/ oncologist are using herbs to strengthen the qi, blood or immune system prior or post surgery. Primarly b/c they had no postive result using herbs to reduce or elimate tumors. > > This may be the limitations of our medicine. I think it is good to build a list of professional contacts who are working in this field, however it is also important to recognize what we can and cannot treat. CM remains an adjunct therapy in this context. > > Warren Cargal > > http://traditionalj <http://traditionaljewishmedicine.com/> ewishmedicine.com/ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Mail Beta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 Sharon, Yehuda, Alon, Warren, I have a longer post in preparation, but for right now, I just want to say that cancer is perhaps the most complex, emotionally- charged, controversial, and political topic/disease out there, with the possible exception of AIDS. It is easy to engender misunderstandings when discussing it on a public forum, which is why I usually refrain from it. Cancer is more than one disease, has many stages, is very complex and difficult to treat, every patient is a new story. It is also very unpredictable and surprises everyone with its pathological twists and turns. Nothing humbles me more in clinical practice than work with cancer patients. I also want to point out that I think Chinese (and Tibetan) medicine has a tremendous amount to offer to cancer patients. The cancer industry, however, is very powerful, and in California, one can treat cancer patients, but not cancer as a disease (by ruling of the acupuncture board). I think hospital settings are important, and hope someday adequate CM oncology programs will be developed, and in- patient CM facilities to provide more comprehensive care, with both integrative and 'pure' CM tracks. On Feb 8, 2007, at 9:16 AM, sharon weizenbaum wrote: > Sometimes I get the sense that as practitioners we tend to blame our > patients for their bad habits, their attitudes, their choices as a > way to 1. cope with the lack of control we have and 2. to avoid > responsibility for our own treatments not helping. What if we let > our patients not heed our advice, support them for organizing their > own timeline for adjusting their life habits and treat them as best > we can anyway? > > Sharon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 Hi! I just had the University of Arizona Integrative Medicine fellowship training with Dr. Andrew Weil about 2 weeks ago. We had a lot of discussion about integrating Chinese medicine, homeopath, or herbal medicine with Onocology patients. He is going to publish a book with the Chief of Oncologist at SF in California about Integrative medicine for cancer pateints' treatments. Dr. Weil will cover herbal integration with cancer treatments. His main training is botanical and WM. We can look at his book and see how much it covers for Chinese herbs. He speaks highly of China's integration of WM and TCM treatment protocals for cancer patients. In fact, I was a research RN in Hopkins outpatient oncology in early 90's while studying to become an adult nurse practitioner in Hopkins. My oncology pateints strongly encouraged me to study Chinese medicine, because they had done well by utilizing acupuncture and herbs. However, they don't tell their doctors about what they do with CAM treatments. Now we received more acceptance of acupuncture treatments. I believed herbs are the next. I understand that we can only treat cancer patients, but not to claim that we are treating cancers. I knew that many acupuncturists in Maryland have been rejected by malpractice insurance companies, because they treat cancer patients. I believe the future for us would be to prove cost effective of utilizing Acupuncture and herbs compare to WM. It's all about money. Once we can prove that, we will be able to have more collaboration with WM. We knew what we practice is working. There is no need to prove which herbs to treat what disease. I discussed with Dr. Weil about this issue. He totally agreed about cost effective research, because we cannot use WM research methodology to measure what we do. Sincerely, Ta-Ya Lee Ta-Ya Lee, MSN, CRNP, MAc, LAc, MBA Johns Hopkins Community Physicians Wyman Park Internal Medicine Phone 410-338-3421 Fax 410-338-3413 WARNING: E-mail sent over the Internet is not secure. Information sent by e-mail may not remain confidential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 Ta-Ya, I will look forward to seeing Dr. Weil's book. I've shared patients with his center in the past, and my experience was a positive one. By the way, Dr. Weil predicts that chemotherapy will fall out of favor as a major therapy for cancer in the next ten years. I myself hope better alternatives are developed. On Feb 8, 2007, at 1:44 PM, Ta-Ya Lee wrote: > Hi! > I just had the University of Arizona Integrative Medicine fellowship > training with Dr. Andrew Weil about 2 weeks ago. We had a lot of > discussion about integrating Chinese medicine, homeopath, or herbal > medicine with Onocology patients. He is going to publish a book with > the Chief of Oncologist at SF in California about Integrative medicine > for cancer pateints' treatments. Dr. Weil will cover herbal > integration > with cancer treatments. His main training is botanical and WM. We can > look at his book and see how much it covers for Chinese herbs. He > speaks highly of China's integration of WM and TCM treatment protocals > for cancer patients. > > In fact, I was a research RN in Hopkins outpatient oncology in early > 90's while studying to become an adult nurse practitioner in Hopkins. > My oncology pateints strongly encouraged me to study Chinese medicine, > because they had done well by utilizing acupuncture and herbs. > However, > they don't tell their doctors about what they do with CAM treatments. > Now we received more acceptance of acupuncture treatments. I believed > herbs are the next. I understand that we can only treat cancer > patients, but not to claim that we are treating cancers. I knew that > many acupuncturists in Maryland have been rejected by malpractice > insurance companies, because they treat cancer patients. > > I believe the future for us would be to prove cost effective of > utilizing Acupuncture and herbs compare to WM. It's all about money. > Once we can prove that, we will be able to have more collaboration > with > WM. We knew what we practice is working. There is no need to prove > which herbs to treat what disease. I discussed with Dr. Weil about > this > issue. He totally agreed about cost effective research, because we > cannot use WM research methodology to measure what we do. > > Sincerely, > Ta-Ya Lee > > Ta-Ya Lee, MSN, CRNP, MAc, LAc, MBA > Johns Hopkins Community Physicians > Wyman Park Internal Medicine > Phone 410-338-3421 Fax 410-338-3413 > > WARNING: E-mail sent over the Internet is not secure. Information sent > by e-mail may not remain confidential. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 Yehuda, I know that your comments arise from your passion…your passion for CM and your passion to help your patients. We both share that passion and it is that reason I spent time w/ you on this issue. Warren > > > 2007/02/08 Thu PM 02:33:04 EST > > RE: Cancer pathogenesis > > Dear Warren, > > Please forgive any hurt that may have been felt by my letter, but I wanted to emphasize the tremendous importance of deeply exploring within, when faced with cancer, either as patients, friends, lovers or practitioners, and to not view it as an isolated mechanical dysfunction in the body's plumbing or electrical system. You are right that it is the great unknown, and like the ocean all we can see superficially is what is on the surface. But we must attempt to explore the dark, deep unknown in order to have a chance to change what has been given to us. It's very, very hard, painful work, and takes tremendous,support to explore deep inside, but there's no other acceptable alternative, in my opinion. > > May your wife have a complete and speedy recovery, > > Sincerely, > > Yehuda > Warren Cargal <wcargal9 wrote: > Dearest Yehuda, > > Cancer brings us face to face w/ the great unknown, just how little we are > in control of our life. > > Your statement " It is my firm conviction, and I'll affirm again, what I > stated before, that cancer is rarely just a disease of the body. Rather, it > is the result of a pathological imbalance of the emotions, spirit and > thought processes as well. As a patient of mine told me a year before she > died: " If I can connect my heart to my occiput I will live. " She wasn't able > to " , represents our attempt to maintain some sense of control in these > overwhelming circumstances. > > If I was to take your statement and apply it to my wife, it brings in a > certain spiritual arrogance, i.e. if she would only correct her spiritual, > emotional thoughts processes she would be well. That implies a deep judgment > of her life, her beauty and moreso implies that I know what is best for her > path. I don't know and I surrender to what is here in my life. There is no > other place to be, no heart to connect to the occiput, just fully here in > the present. > > I am sorry to hear about your sister, I know she must have been a bright > light in your life. > > Warren > > _____ > > > On Behalf Of yehuda frischman > Thursday, February 08, 2007 5:23 AM > > Cancer pathogenesis > > Dear Doug and all, > > I will just add a couple of personal antecdotes, that I think I've related > before: My sister-in-law came down with non-Hodgekin's lymphoma 8 years ago. > She was a fighter, a single mom who against all odds, raised 4 children from > three different fathers, and little or no support from any of the fathers. > She chose to go the Western route, not in the least bit interested in what > Chinese or any other non-Western allopathic route had to offer her, after > all, how could she possibly think of experimenting and taking a chance with > alternative, flakey, unproven methods, right? Her life was in danger, right? > Well, to make a long story short, she had chemo and radiation and " beat " the > cancer! Hurray! Right? Wrong. 5 years after she was in complete remission, > she came down with leukemia (her oncologist remarked in passing that that > was one of the risks of chemo, which poisons the blood. Oh well!) and had a > rapid and painful death. > > It is my firm conviction, and I'll affirm again, what I stated before, that > cancer is rarely just a disease of the body. Rather, it is the result of a > pathological imbalance of the emotions, spirit and thought processes as > well. As a patient of mine told me a year before she died: " If I can connect > my heart to my occiput I will live. " She wasn't able to. > > Sincerely, > > Yehuda > > <taiqi (AT) taiqi (DOT) <taiqi%40taiqi.com> com> wrote: > Warren, sorry to hear about your wife's diagnosis. > In response to your post and others I would say that we would be (immoral) > fools to > suggest to patients that they only do CM. I think everyone is clear about > that. > We may be an adjunct therapy but I believe we are a vital one. Better than > most if not all > out there. WM's therapies are not always a cure as we know. We can help them > achieve > better success. > In response to Alon, last time in Beijing I saw patients who had come from > all corners of > the country to see the proverbial big doctor in the Capital City. These > people were not > taking CM lightly. They had probably spent everything they had to get there > for a few > minutes of these doctors time and prescriptions. So I wouldn't be dismissive > of what > means to the Chinese. > > What I was told there was that many times, and it is the best to be hoped > for, was that > when surgery was done the tumor sites were found to be necrotic. I have > found that in my > limited experience when the patients had aggresively taken herbs and > operations were > made, the tumors have been smaller than expected. > Perhaps that is what meant by knowing what you can treat. We can't promise > anything but > I still think we achieve results that no other therapy can. And certainly > patients with cancer > need all the help they can get. > > doug > > @ <%40> > , <wcargal9 wrote: > > > > I wanted to share my experience about using CM for cancer. Recently my > wife was dx w/ > breast cancer and the tx recommendation was mastectomy. I immediately did an > index > medicus and found much good research about herbs w/ cancer cytotoxic effects > and anti > proliferations effects. > > > > I also contacted numerous people doing clinical research w/ herbs along w/ > several > people on the cancer list. Everyone I sp w/ was very clear in stating that > CM is not a > primary method of tx for cancer. The primary modes remain surgery, chemo and > radiation. > All of the people I sp w/ who are working w/ oncologist are using herbs to > strengthen the > qi, blood or immune system prior or post surgery. Primarly b/c they had no > postive result > using herbs to reduce or elimate tumors. > > > > This may be the limitations of our medicine. I think it is good to build a > list of > professional contacts who are working in this field, however it is also > important to > recognize what we can and cannot treat. CM remains an adjunct therapy in > this context. > > > > Warren Cargal > > > > > > http://traditionalj <http://traditionaljewishmedicine.com/> > ewishmedicine.com/ > > > Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. > Try the free Mail Beta. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 Z'ev Most oncologist believe that within 10 yr or so CA will become a chronic manageable disease by using disease modifying therapy. There has been huge advances in understanding cancer - Thursday, February 08, 2007 3:17 PM Re: Re: Cancer pathogenesis Ta-Ya, I will look forward to seeing Dr. Weil's book. I've shared patients with his center in the past, and my experience was a positive one. By the way, Dr. Weil predicts that chemotherapy will fall out of favor as a major therapy for cancer in the next ten years. I myself hope better alternatives are developed. On Feb 8, 2007, at 1:44 PM, Ta-Ya Lee wrote: > Hi! > I just had the University of Arizona Integrative Medicine fellowship > training with Dr. Andrew Weil about 2 weeks ago. We had a lot of > discussion about integrating Chinese medicine, homeopath, or herbal > medicine with Onocology patients. He is going to publish a book with > the Chief of Oncologist at SF in California about Integrative medicine > for cancer pateints' treatments. Dr. Weil will cover herbal > integration > with cancer treatments. His main training is botanical and WM. We can > look at his book and see how much it covers for Chinese herbs. He > speaks highly of China's integration of WM and TCM treatment protocals > for cancer patients. > > In fact, I was a research RN in Hopkins outpatient oncology in early > 90's while studying to become an adult nurse practitioner in Hopkins. > My oncology pateints strongly encouraged me to study Chinese medicine, > because they had done well by utilizing acupuncture and herbs. > However, > they don't tell their doctors about what they do with CAM treatments. > Now we received more acceptance of acupuncture treatments. I believed > herbs are the next. I understand that we can only treat cancer > patients, but not to claim that we are treating cancers. I knew that > many acupuncturists in Maryland have been rejected by malpractice > insurance companies, because they treat cancer patients. > > I believe the future for us would be to prove cost effective of > utilizing Acupuncture and herbs compare to WM. It's all about money. > Once we can prove that, we will be able to have more collaboration > with > WM. We knew what we practice is working. There is no need to prove > which herbs to treat what disease. I discussed with Dr. Weil about > this > issue. He totally agreed about cost effective research, because we > cannot use WM research methodology to measure what we do. > > Sincerely, > Ta-Ya Lee > > Ta-Ya Lee, MSN, CRNP, MAc, LAc, MBA > Johns Hopkins Community Physicians > Wyman Park Internal Medicine > Phone 410-338-3421 Fax 410-338-3413 > > WARNING: E-mail sent over the Internet is not secure. Information sent > by e-mail may not remain confidential. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 I agree that the future of cancer therapy, at least from a biomedical perspective, is vaccines and immuno-modulation, i.e. the management of the disease. I also think Chinese medicine has a potential role here as well. I hope that Dr. Weil is right, while sometimes necessary at the present time, I've seen tremendous damage caused by chemotherapy. On Feb 8, 2007, at 6:31 PM, Alon Marcus wrote: > Z'ev > Most oncologist believe that within 10 yr or so CA will become a > chronic manageable disease by using disease modifying therapy. > There has been huge advances in understanding cancer > > > > > > > > - > > > Thursday, February 08, 2007 3:17 PM > Re: Re: Cancer pathogenesis > > Ta-Ya, > I will look forward to seeing Dr. Weil's book. I've shared > patients with his center in the past, and my experience was a > positive one. By the way, Dr. Weil predicts that chemotherapy will > fall out of favor as a major therapy for cancer in the next ten > years. I myself hope better alternatives are developed. > > > > On Feb 8, 2007, at 1:44 PM, Ta-Ya Lee wrote: > > > Hi! > > I just had the University of Arizona Integrative Medicine fellowship > > training with Dr. Andrew Weil about 2 weeks ago. We had a lot of > > discussion about integrating Chinese medicine, homeopath, or herbal > > medicine with Onocology patients. He is going to publish a book with > > the Chief of Oncologist at SF in California about Integrative > medicine > > for cancer pateints' treatments. Dr. Weil will cover herbal > > integration > > with cancer treatments. His main training is botanical and WM. We > can > > look at his book and see how much it covers for Chinese herbs. He > > speaks highly of China's integration of WM and TCM treatment > protocals > > for cancer patients. > > > > In fact, I was a research RN in Hopkins outpatient oncology in early > > 90's while studying to become an adult nurse practitioner in > Hopkins. > > My oncology pateints strongly encouraged me to study Chinese > medicine, > > because they had done well by utilizing acupuncture and herbs. > > However, > > they don't tell their doctors about what they do with CAM > treatments. > > Now we received more acceptance of acupuncture treatments. I > believed > > herbs are the next. I understand that we can only treat cancer > > patients, but not to claim that we are treating cancers. I knew that > > many acupuncturists in Maryland have been rejected by malpractice > > insurance companies, because they treat cancer patients. > > > > I believe the future for us would be to prove cost effective of > > utilizing Acupuncture and herbs compare to WM. It's all about money. > > Once we can prove that, we will be able to have more collaboration > > with > > WM. We knew what we practice is working. There is no need to prove > > which herbs to treat what disease. I discussed with Dr. Weil about > > this > > issue. He totally agreed about cost effective research, because we > > cannot use WM research methodology to measure what we do. > > > > Sincerely, > > Ta-Ya Lee > > > > Ta-Ya Lee, MSN, CRNP, MAc, LAc, MBA > > Johns Hopkins Community Physicians > > Wyman Park Internal Medicine > > Phone 410-338-3421 Fax 410-338-3413 > > > > WARNING: E-mail sent over the Internet is not secure. Information > sent > > by e-mail may not remain confidential. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 I hear more about disrupting various replication processes than immuno therapy - Thursday, February 08, 2007 7:05 PM Re: Re: Cancer pathogenesis I agree that the future of cancer therapy, at least from a biomedical perspective, is vaccines and immuno-modulation, i.e. the management of the disease. I also think Chinese medicine has a potential role here as well. I hope that Dr. Weil is right, while sometimes necessary at the present time, I've seen tremendous damage caused by chemotherapy. On Feb 8, 2007, at 6:31 PM, Alon Marcus wrote: > Z'ev > Most oncologist believe that within 10 yr or so CA will become a > chronic manageable disease by using disease modifying therapy. > There has been huge advances in understanding cancer > > > > > > > > - > > > Thursday, February 08, 2007 3:17 PM > Re: Re: Cancer pathogenesis > > Ta-Ya, > I will look forward to seeing Dr. Weil's book. I've shared > patients with his center in the past, and my experience was a > positive one. By the way, Dr. Weil predicts that chemotherapy will > fall out of favor as a major therapy for cancer in the next ten > years. I myself hope better alternatives are developed. > > > > On Feb 8, 2007, at 1:44 PM, Ta-Ya Lee wrote: > > > Hi! > > I just had the University of Arizona Integrative Medicine fellowship > > training with Dr. Andrew Weil about 2 weeks ago. We had a lot of > > discussion about integrating Chinese medicine, homeopath, or herbal > > medicine with Onocology patients. He is going to publish a book with > > the Chief of Oncologist at SF in California about Integrative > medicine > > for cancer pateints' treatments. Dr. Weil will cover herbal > > integration > > with cancer treatments. His main training is botanical and WM. We > can > > look at his book and see how much it covers for Chinese herbs. He > > speaks highly of China's integration of WM and TCM treatment > protocals > > for cancer patients. > > > > In fact, I was a research RN in Hopkins outpatient oncology in early > > 90's while studying to become an adult nurse practitioner in > Hopkins. > > My oncology pateints strongly encouraged me to study Chinese > medicine, > > because they had done well by utilizing acupuncture and herbs. > > However, > > they don't tell their doctors about what they do with CAM > treatments. > > Now we received more acceptance of acupuncture treatments. I > believed > > herbs are the next. I understand that we can only treat cancer > > patients, but not to claim that we are treating cancers. I knew that > > many acupuncturists in Maryland have been rejected by malpractice > > insurance companies, because they treat cancer patients. > > > > I believe the future for us would be to prove cost effective of > > utilizing Acupuncture and herbs compare to WM. It's all about money. > > Once we can prove that, we will be able to have more collaboration > > with > > WM. We knew what we practice is working. There is no need to prove > > which herbs to treat what disease. I discussed with Dr. Weil about > > this > > issue. He totally agreed about cost effective research, because we > > cannot use WM research methodology to measure what we do. > > > > Sincerely, > > Ta-Ya Lee > > > > Ta-Ya Lee, MSN, CRNP, MAc, LAc, MBA > > Johns Hopkins Community Physicians > > Wyman Park Internal Medicine > > Phone 410-338-3421 Fax 410-338-3413 > > > > WARNING: E-mail sent over the Internet is not secure. Information > sent > > by e-mail may not remain confidential. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 Until I met Professor Yung-Chi Cheng (of Yale, Henry Bronson Professor of Phamocology and Professor of Medicine) last year, I almost thought of Chinese medicine's role in the future as if it's a mirage. He has lead a team to look for “Developing traditional Chinese medicine into FDA-approved prescription drugs for the treatment of cancer.” Since he has been one of the key players in cancer chemotherapy drugs I think this may be a good sign. If you are interested, here's the link to his info in Yale: http://info.med.yale.edu/pharm/faculty/index.php?bioID=6 And this is the company which Yale initially funded: http://www.phytoceutica.com/ Mike L. <zrosenbe wrote: I agree that the future of cancer therapy, at least from a biomedical perspective, is vaccines and immuno-modulation, i.e. the management of the disease. I also think Chinese medicine has a potential role here as well. I hope that Dr. Weil is right, while sometimes necessary at the present time, I've seen tremendous damage caused by chemotherapy. On Feb 8, 2007, at 6:31 PM, Alon Marcus wrote: > Z'ev > Most oncologist believe that within 10 yr or so CA will become a > chronic manageable disease by using disease modifying therapy. > There has been huge advances in understanding cancer > > > > > > > > - > > > Thursday, February 08, 2007 3:17 PM > Re: Re: Cancer pathogenesis > > Ta-Ya, > I will look forward to seeing Dr. Weil's book. I've shared > patients with his center in the past, and my experience was a > positive one. By the way, Dr. Weil predicts that chemotherapy will > fall out of favor as a major therapy for cancer in the next ten > years. I myself hope better alternatives are developed. > > > > On Feb 8, 2007, at 1:44 PM, Ta-Ya Lee wrote: > > > Hi! > > I just had the University of Arizona Integrative Medicine fellowship > > training with Dr. Andrew Weil about 2 weeks ago. We had a lot of > > discussion about integrating Chinese medicine, homeopath, or herbal > > medicine with Onocology patients. He is going to publish a book with > > the Chief of Oncologist at SF in California about Integrative > medicine > > for cancer pateints' treatments. Dr. Weil will cover herbal > > integration > > with cancer treatments. His main training is botanical and WM. We > can > > look at his book and see how much it covers for Chinese herbs. He > > speaks highly of China's integration of WM and TCM treatment > protocals > > for cancer patients. > > > > In fact, I was a research RN in Hopkins outpatient oncology in early > > 90's while studying to become an adult nurse practitioner in > Hopkins. > > My oncology pateints strongly encouraged me to study Chinese > medicine, > > because they had done well by utilizing acupuncture and herbs. > > However, > > they don't tell their doctors about what they do with CAM > treatments. > > Now we received more acceptance of acupuncture treatments. I > believed > > herbs are the next. I understand that we can only treat cancer > > patients, but not to claim that we are treating cancers. I knew that > > many acupuncturists in Maryland have been rejected by malpractice > > insurance companies, because they treat cancer patients. > > > > I believe the future for us would be to prove cost effective of > > utilizing Acupuncture and herbs compare to WM. It's all about money. > > Once we can prove that, we will be able to have more collaboration > > with > > WM. We knew what we practice is working. There is no need to prove > > which herbs to treat what disease. I discussed with Dr. Weil about > > this > > issue. He totally agreed about cost effective research, because we > > cannot use WM research methodology to measure what we do. > > > > Sincerely, > > Ta-Ya Lee > > > > Ta-Ya Lee, MSN, CRNP, MAc, LAc, MBA > > Johns Hopkins Community Physicians > > Wyman Park Internal Medicine > > Phone 410-338-3421 Fax 410-338-3413 > > > > WARNING: E-mail sent over the Internet is not secure. Information > sent > > by e-mail may not remain confidential. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2007 Report Share Posted February 12, 2007 Sharon - That is an interesting point. Why is blame so important to modern American culture? Not to over-simplify your point, if you are fat, you eat too much. Many cultures around the world (especially Chinese) will call a duck a duck and ask you 'why you have gotten so fat'? I know this from personal experience.. :-) Of course cancer is a complicated disease process, but still, you can make some suggestions to guide them, not just support their choices. I'm a firm believer that political correctness is probably up there in the top 5 killers in America - and relates directly to obesity, diabetes, heart disease etc. Dogma etc etc etc aside, anybody on the planet only has an opinion to offer, and that's what your patients are paying you for. Then again, my favorite person on American Idol is Simon - some people just need a dose of reality once in a while. You don't have to beat the patient up about it, just try to offer a little good advice for them. Best rgds, Geoff , sharon weizenbaum <sweiz wrote: > > Sometimes I get the sense that as practitioners we tend to blame our > patients for their bad habits, their attitudes, their choices as a > way to 1. cope with the lack of control we have and 2. to avoid > responsibility for our own treatments not helping. What if we let > our patients not heed our advice, support them for organizing their > own timeline for adjusting their life habits and treat them as best > we can anyway? > > Sharon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2007 Report Share Posted February 12, 2007 I find it odd that practitioners (especially my students) will say, " the patient doesn't want to change " . My response is, why not? what can you find in them that will allow change? doug > > > > Sometimes I get the sense that as practitioners we tend to blame our > > patients for their bad habits, their attitudes, their choices as a > > way to 1. cope with the lack of control we have and 2. to avoid > > responsibility for our own treatments not helping. What if we let > > our patients not heed our advice, support them for organizing their > > own timeline for adjusting their life habits and treat them as best > > we can anyway? > > > > Sharon > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.