Bleeding gums side effect of Herbs?

[Guest guest]

Today, a patient came in to the clinic reporting an increase in

bleeding gums. She asked her dentist about it. Her dentist told her

that herbs can cause the sums to become " dried-out " and more

susceptible to bleeding. This patient is peri-menopausal, with hot

flashes and irregular period (delayed). Her diagnosis is blood stasis

in the uterus with an underlying kidney yin deficiency. Since she

began the herbal regimen I prescribed beginning on December 1st, 2006,

her hot flash symptoms resolved entirely, and her period became more

regular (from every 3-4 months to every 1-2 months). However, at the

dentists suggestion she stopped taking the herbs 10 days ago, and she

is now having 2-6 hot flashes per day again, and has not menstruated

in 7 weeks.

 

This is what she had been taking:

 

Blue Light Granules Custom Formulation (3g TID):

17% Pu Huang , 17% Wu Ling Zhi , 21% Shu Di Huang , 17% Dang Gui, 11%

Chuan Xiong , 17% Bai Shao Yao

 

Yunnan Baiyao (1 cap TID), only during period.

 

Dr. Foster's Femopause (a western herbal tincture)(2 droppers, about

..5mL, TID):

Black cohosh, blue cohosh, wild yam, chaste tree berry, dang gui,

licorice root, sageleaf, and a proprietary blend of essential oils.

 

My question to you is, what herbs are causing the bleeding, if any.

what modifications do you recommend? Has anyone else seen this

response of increased gum bleeding? Am I going to heavy on the blood

movers?

[Guest guest]

Hi Joseph,

 

I have a patient whose gums started to bleed after beginning Wellbutrin, which

is hot and drying in nature, so I suppose herbs can also increase or induce

bleeding of the gums. Some of the herbs you mention are, indeed drying (I

imagine the sage leaf is, for example), so you might want to look at that. My

other thought is that the essential oils might also be drying or at least

irritating, since they can burn the skin in too strong a concentration. My last

thought is that you are combining Chinese and Western herbs - I am not

knowledgeable about the side effects of such combinations, and perhaps these

particular herbs are not working well together.

 

She is hot, and you are using blood tonifying and blood-moving herbs, but are

you focusing also on clearing heat? Blood-moving herbs can also cause bleeding,

but I would expect her menstrual periods to become more heavy also, in addition

to the bleeding gums.

 

 

 

josephcurcio <joseph wrote:

Today, a patient came in to the clinic reporting an increase in

bleeding gums. She asked her dentist about it. Her dentist told her

that herbs can cause the sums to become " dried-out " and more

susceptible to bleeding. This patient is peri-menopausal, with hot

flashes and irregular period (delayed). Her diagnosis is blood stasis

in the uterus with an underlying kidney yin deficiency. Since she

began the herbal regimen I prescribed beginning on December 1st, 2006,

her hot flash symptoms resolved entirely, and her period became more

regular (from every 3-4 months to every 1-2 months). However, at the

dentists suggestion she stopped taking the herbs 10 days ago, and she

is now having 2-6 hot flashes per day again, and has not menstruated

in 7 weeks.

 

This is what she had been taking:

 

Blue Light Granules Custom Formulation (3g TID):

17% Pu Huang , 17% Wu Ling Zhi , 21% Shu Di Huang , 17% Dang Gui, 11%

Chuan Xiong , 17% Bai Shao Yao

 

Yunnan Baiyao (1 cap TID), only during period.

 

Dr. Foster's Femopause (a western herbal tincture)(2 droppers, about

.5mL, TID):

Black cohosh, blue cohosh, wild yam, chaste tree berry, dang gui,

licorice root, sageleaf, and a proprietary blend of essential oils.

 

My question to you is, what herbs are causing the bleeding, if any.

what modifications do you recommend? Has anyone else seen this

response of increased gum bleeding? Am I going to heavy on the blood

movers?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Get your own web address.

Have a HUGE year through Small Business.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi,

 

 

 

What about Stomach Yin Xu/Stomach fire?...

 

 

 

Kip

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of

Friday, March 09, 2007 6:25 PM

 

Re: Bleeding gums side effect of Herbs?

 

 

 

Hi Joseph,

 

I have a patient whose gums started to bleed after beginning Wellbutrin,

which is hot and drying in nature, so I suppose herbs can also increase or

induce bleeding of the gums. Some of the herbs you mention are, indeed

drying (I imagine the sage leaf is, for example), so you might want to look

at that. My other thought is that the essential oils might also be drying or

at least irritating, since they can burn the skin in too strong a

concentration. My last thought is that you are combining Chinese and Western

herbs - I am not knowledgeable about the side effects of such combinations,

and perhaps these particular herbs are not working well together.

 

She is hot, and you are using blood tonifying and blood-moving herbs, but

are you focusing also on clearing heat? Blood-moving herbs can also cause

bleeding, but I would expect her menstrual periods to become more heavy

also, in addition to the bleeding gums.

 

 

 

josephcurcio <joseph (AT) acupoint (DOT) <joseph%40acupoint.net> net> wrote:

Today, a patient came in to the clinic reporting an increase in

bleeding gums. She asked her dentist about it. Her dentist told her

that herbs can cause the sums to become " dried-out " and more

susceptible to bleeding. This patient is peri-menopausal, with hot

flashes and irregular period (delayed). Her diagnosis is blood stasis

in the uterus with an underlying kidney yin deficiency. Since she

began the herbal regimen I prescribed beginning on December 1st, 2006,

her hot flash symptoms resolved entirely, and her period became more

regular (from every 3-4 months to every 1-2 months). However, at the

dentists suggestion she stopped taking the herbs 10 days ago, and she

is now having 2-6 hot flashes per day again, and has not menstruated

in 7 weeks.

 

This is what she had been taking:

 

Blue Light Granules Custom Formulation (3g TID):

17% Pu Huang , 17% Wu Ling Zhi , 21% Shu Di Huang , 17% Dang Gui, 11%

Chuan Xiong , 17% Bai Shao Yao

 

Yunnan Baiyao (1 cap TID), only during period.

 

Dr. Foster's Femopause (a western herbal tincture)(2 droppers, about

..5mL, TID):

Black cohosh, blue cohosh, wild yam, chaste tree berry, dang gui,

licorice root, sageleaf, and a proprietary blend of essential oils.

 

My question to you is, what herbs are causing the bleeding, if any.

what modifications do you recommend? Has anyone else seen this

response of increased gum bleeding? Am I going to heavy on the blood

movers?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Get your own web address.

Have a HUGE year through Small Business.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi,

 

It is possible that the herbs might not be the contributing factor. Not

exactly TCM but the following are some of the other conditions that can produce

symptoms of bleeding gums (including acute leukemia):

1. Gingivitis

Inflammation of the gingiva, producing bleeding with swelling, redness,

exudate, a change of normal contours, and, occasionally, discomfort. Diagnosis

is based on inspection.

http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec08/ch095/ch095c.html?qt=bleeding%20gums & alt=sh

 

2. Vitamin C deficiency

Gums may become swollen, purple, spongy, and friable; they bleed easily in

severe deficiency. Eventually, teeth become loose and avulsed.

http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec01/ch004/ch004k.html?qt=bleeding%20gums & alt=sh

 

3. Vitamin K deficiency

Coumarin anticoagulants interfere with the synthesis of vitamin–K dependent

coagulation proteins (factors II, VII, IX, and X) in the liver.

Certain antibiotics (particularly some cephalosporins and other broad-spectrum

antibiotics), salicylates (aspirin, etc.), megadoses of vitamin E, and hepatic

insufficiency increase risk of bleeding in patients with vitamin K deficiency.

http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec01/ch004/ch004n.html?qt=bleeding%20gums & alt=sh

 

4. Acute leukemia

Common presenting symptoms (anemia, infection, easy bruising and bleeding).

Bleeding is usually manifested by petechiae, easy bruising, epistaxis, bleeding

gums, or menstrual irregularity. Other presenting symptoms and signs are

usually nonspecific (eg, pallor, fatigue, fever, malaise, weight loss,

tachycardia, chest pain) and are attributable to anemia and a hypermetabolic

state.

http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec11/ch142/ch142b.html?qt=bleeding%20gums & alt=sh

 

5. Dengue (Breakbone fever; Dandy Fever) (not very likely)

A mosquito-borne disease caused by a flavivirus. Endemic to the tropical

regions of the world in latitudes from about 35° north to 35° south. Outbreaks

are most prevalent in Southeast Asia but also occur in the Caribbean, including

Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands, Oceania, and the Indian subcontinent;

more recently, dengue incidence has increased in Central and South America. Each

year about 100 to 200 cases are imported to the US by returning tourists.

Clinical criteria for the diagnosis: sudden fever that stays high for 2 to 7

days; hemorrhagic manifestations, including at least a positive tourniquet test

and petechiae, purpura, ecchymoses, bleeding gums, hematemesis, or melena; and

hepatomegaly.

http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec14/ch191/ch191b.html?qt=bleeding%20gums & alt=sh

 

6. Lassa fever (not very likely)

An often fatal arenavirus infection that occurs mostly in Africa. Mastomys

natalensis, a rat that commonly inhabits houses in Africa. Most human cases

probably result from contamination of food with rodent urine, but human-to-human

transmission can occur via urine, feces, saliva, vomitus, or blood.

Occasionally, patients have tinnitus, epistaxis, bleeding from the gums and

venipuncture sites, maculopapular rash, cough, and dizziness.

http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec14/ch191/ch191d.html?qt=bleeding%20gums & alt=sh

 

Sincerly,

Steve

 

 

kip wrote:

Hi,

 

What about Stomach Yin Xu/Stomach fire?...

 

Kip

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of

Friday, March 09, 2007 6:25 PM

 

Re: Bleeding gums side effect of Herbs?

 

Hi Joseph,

 

I have a patient whose gums started to bleed after beginning Wellbutrin,

which is hot and drying in nature, so I suppose herbs can also increase or

induce bleeding of the gums. Some of the herbs you mention are, indeed

drying (I imagine the sage leaf is, for example), so you might want to look

at that. My other thought is that the essential oils might also be drying or

at least irritating, since they can burn the skin in too strong a

concentration. My last thought is that you are combining Chinese and Western

herbs - I am not knowledgeable about the side effects of such combinations,

and perhaps these particular herbs are not working well together.

 

She is hot, and you are using blood tonifying and blood-moving herbs, but

are you focusing also on clearing heat? Blood-moving herbs can also cause

bleeding, but I would expect her menstrual periods to become more heavy

also, in addition to the bleeding gums.

 

 

 

josephcurcio <joseph (AT) acupoint (DOT) <joseph%40acupoint.net> net> wrote:

Today, a patient came in to the clinic reporting an increase in

bleeding gums. She asked her dentist about it. Her dentist told her

that herbs can cause the sums to become " dried-out " and more

susceptible to bleeding. This patient is peri-menopausal, with hot

flashes and irregular period (delayed). Her diagnosis is blood stasis

in the uterus with an underlying kidney yin deficiency. Since she

began the herbal regimen I prescribed beginning on December 1st, 2006,

her hot flash symptoms resolved entirely, and her period became more

regular (from every 3-4 months to every 1-2 months). However, at the

dentists suggestion she stopped taking the herbs 10 days ago, and she

is now having 2-6 hot flashes per day again, and has not menstruated

in 7 weeks.

 

This is what she had been taking:

 

Blue Light Granules Custom Formulation (3g TID):

17% Pu Huang , 17% Wu Ling Zhi , 21% Shu Di Huang , 17% Dang Gui, 11%

Chuan Xiong , 17% Bai Shao Yao

 

Yunnan Baiyao (1 cap TID), only during period.

 

Dr. Foster's Femopause (a western herbal tincture)(2 droppers, about

..5mL, TID):

Black cohosh, blue cohosh, wild yam, chaste tree berry, dang gui,

licorice root, sageleaf, and a proprietary blend of essential oils.

 

My question to you is, what herbs are causing the bleeding, if any.

what modifications do you recommend? Has anyone else seen this

response of increased gum bleeding? Am I going to heavy on the blood

movers?

 

 

Get your own web address.

Have a HUGE year through Small Business.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Joseph,

 

Like Andrea, I am wondering why you are mixing methods between

Western and Chinese Herbs. Do you know the Chinese Medical

indications of the Western herbs or are you using them

symptomatically? Is the Femopause given just because it's good for

menopause or is it related to your diagnosis of blood stasis and

Kidney Yin Xu? I don't know the indications of those some of those

herbs or essential oils and personally feel uncomfortable prescribing

anything I don't understand from a Chinese medical point of view. I

would guess these are not good for her and could be causing the

bleeding. I would suggest sticking with the herbs that correspond

to your diagnostic methods otherwise you really don't know what you

are doing.

 

I am also wondering why you have not addressed the Kidney Yin Xu or

heat with your Chinese formula.

 

Also, if her menses are regulated, why are you still giving her blood

moving herbs with her menses? This does not seem right to me. If

you have successfully treated the blood stasis then you should stop

those herbs and reconsider your diagnosis.

 

As for what Andrea said, I have a thought.

 

I would not say she is hot. She has hot flashes which are a result

of either empty heat or full heat. Empty heat can flare if the Qi or

Yang is weak just as easily as when the Yin is weak - so I don't see

how we could say for sure that in general she is hot.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Sharon

 

 

 

Today, a patient came in to the clinic reporting an increase in

bleeding gums. She asked her dentist about it. Her dentist told her

that herbs can cause the sums to become " dried-out " and more

susceptible to bleeding. This patient is peri-menopausal, with hot

flashes and irregular period (delayed). Her diagnosis is blood stasis

in the uterus with an underlying kidney yin deficiency. Since she

began the herbal regimen I prescribed beginning on December 1st, 2006,

her hot flash symptoms resolved entirely, and her period became more

regular (from every 3-4 months to every 1-2 months). However, at the

dentists suggestion she stopped taking the herbs 10 days ago, and she

is now having 2-6 hot flashes per day again, and has not menstruated

in 7 weeks.

 

This is what she had been taking:

 

Blue Light Granules Custom Formulation (3g TID):

17% Pu Huang , 17% Wu Ling Zhi , 21% Shu Di Huang , 17% Dang Gui, 11%

Chuan Xiong , 17% Bai Shao Yao

 

Yunnan Baiyao (1 cap TID), only during period.

 

Dr. Foster's Femopause (a western herbal tincture)(2 droppers, about

..5mL, TID):

Black cohosh, blue cohosh, wild yam, chaste tree berry, dang gui,

licorice root, sageleaf, and a proprietary blend of essential oils.

 

My question to you is, what herbs are causing the bleeding, if any.

what modifications do you recommend? Has anyone else seen this

response of increased gum bleeding? Am I going to heavy on the blood

movers?

 

Sharon Weizenbaum

86 Henry Street

Amherst, MA 01002

413-549-4021

sweiz

www.whitepinehealingarts.com

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

The herbs are not causing her gums to dry out, they were dried out before

(underlying yin deficiency) and were not bleeding due to blood

deficiency/stasis. You now have her blood properly flowing and the gums are

getting the blood as needed but still too weak (dry) to properly contain

them. Flossing and mouthwash 3-5 times a day will help remove any infections

that probably infested her gums when she was yin deficient. Floss for 1-2

days should tell. Use acupuncture to control stomach fire if any.

 

Peace

 

Ed Kasper LAc. & family

www.HappyHerbalist.com

[Guest guest]

Thank you all for your responses. I have had her discontinue all but

the Chinese herbal formula, to which I have added Zhi Mu, Huang Bai

and Huang Lian. Point taken about combining Chinese herbs with

Western herbs for which I don't know the TCM properties.