Guest guest Posted March 13, 2007 Report Share Posted March 13, 2007 Can folks weigh in on the pathophys of Yang Xu causing heat flare? Thanks. -p Here are some thoughts on empty heat from Qi or Yang Xu. First, I have found that many of my students come out of school attributing hot flashes and night sweats to Yin Xu. In many cases this greatly confuses the diagnostic process. If the patient does have Yin Xu, then that easily explains hot flashes and night sweats but, if they don't have Yin Xu then often the practitioner gets confused or enriches Yin erroneously. What I've learned, for myself and what I now teach my students is to take a step by step approach to heat: 1. Identify that there is heat 2. Differentiate if the heat is -full heat (this means that it is A. depressive heat - the body's own warmth getting pent up due to obstruction of Qi, Blood, Phlegm, Damp etc or B. Exogenous heat) -empty heat (meaning the body's own warmth losing its root due to some deficiency - not necessarily deficiency of Yin) 3. If the heat is empty - determine what deficiency is there using your diagnostic methods. 4. Determine the treatment method/principle - supplement Qi and clear empty heat - supplement Yang and clear empty heat - nourish blood and clear empty heat - enrich Yin and clear empty heat. When the Qi or Yang is deficient and the empty fire is flaring - the treatment principle is not just to clear empty fire but also return the flaring fire to the root - since the root is lacking Qi or Yang. Li Dong Yuan states the when the Qi is deficient there is a dropping down of dampness toward the Ming Men. That Ming Men fire and Dampness cannot abide in the same place and so the Ming Men fire flares. This is why feverishness is one of the main symptoms associated with Bu Zhong Yi Qi Tang. A formula such as Er Xian Tang (Two Immortals) is designed for hot flashes due to Yang deficiency. It tonifies Yang and clears empty heat with no Yin tonics. I have found this to be a tremendously important concept for enhancing clinical effectiveness as well as for understanding the case studies of effective doctors. Hope this helps Sharon Weizenbaum 86 Henry Street Amherst, MA 01002 413-549-4021 sweiz www.whitepinehealingarts.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2007 Report Share Posted March 13, 2007 (See below inserts) _____ On Behalf Of sharon weizenbaum Li Dong Yuan states the when the Qi is deficient there is a dropping down of dampness toward the Ming Men. Sharon, Can you point me to a where LDY says there is a dropping of Dampness (besides an Westerner's commentary?). It is interesting that in my reading of Chinese commentaries and articles on yinfire I have never seen dampness mentioned as part of the pathomechanism. I discussed this issue in my essay: Yinfire and its Pathomechanism (Chinese Medicine/index.php?page=Chinese_Medicine_Articles) .. Since the writing of that piece I have always been on the lookout for more extensive articles on the topic. Have you found something that discusses this? Furthermore, IMO, if there is qi xu heat, one does not clear deficient heat, but instead tonifies the qi, as in BZYQT, and this will eliminate the heat. Yes the qi tonics do indirectly eliminate the heat, and of course are indicated for qi deficiency heat, but I do not think they are referred to as medicinals that clear deficient heat. This, IMO, is a confusing use of the term. Such medicinals like huang qi are still said to " Tonify the Spleen and raise the yang. " What is your take on it? Furthermore, I am curious what medicinals you are recommending here to clear deficient heat, if not BZYQT ingredients. (Sharon) That Ming Men fire and Dampness cannot abide in the same place and so the Ming Men fire flares. This is why feverishness is one of the main symptoms associated with Bu Zhong Yi Qi Tang. I always thought it was qi sinking, not dampness. (Sharon)A formula such as Er Xian Tang (Two Immortals) is designed for hot flashes due to Yang deficiency. It tonifies Yang and clears empty heat with no Yin tonics. Yes but Er Xian Tang has huang bai and zhi mu. and hence is said to be a kidney yin and yang deficiency. It is of course deficiency heat, but not from just Yang xu, but also yin xu. This modern formula is in my experience very controversial. Here is a quick excerpt on yang xu fever (fa re) from a section of a pretty thorough Internal Medicine (Chinese) book. (Bing yin)(Cause of Disease) Yang-qi vacuity (fa re)- Spleen and kidney yang deficiency, or constitutional yang insufficiency, or excessive taxation, or an enduring cold pattern that damages the yang, excessive use of cold medicinals, resulting in kidney yang deficiency, fire not returning to the source, deficient yang floating and straying to the exterior and causing heat effusion. Here is what is listed under the pathomechanism (bing ji) for yang xu fever (From the same book): Yang vacuity fever - If the yang qi is vacuous and yin cold is internally generated, then yang does not have a place to reside, it floats and scatters to the exterior and creates fever. Because fever is the tip and yang qi is vacuous, then loss of warmth is the root. Even though there is a fever, one desires to be covered while simultaneously having physical cold, fear of cold, prefers to lie, sore lower back and knees, pale and plump tongue, or has teeth marks, coat is fair and delicate (bairun), pulse is deep, thin and lacks force. The pathomechanism for qi xu is as follows: (Only somewhat helpful) Qi vacuity fever - If there is spleen and stomach qi vacuity, central qi insufficiency, and internally generated yin fire, this leads to fever. If at the root there is qi vacuity, and there is a situation of taxation, then there will be more consumption of qi. Therefore many fevers occur or become worse after overwork. If there is spleen and stomach qi vacuity, which is the source of qi & blood engendering transformation, then this can lead to dizziness, lack of strength, palpitations, SOB, laziness to talk, pale tongue, and weak pulse. If central qi is insufficient this can lead to qi vacuity sinking, which can been seen as enduring diarrhea, dysentery, organ prolapse, uterine bleeding etc. If there is qi vacuity not securing then you will see spontaneous sweating, and easily catching a cold. Analysis of the pathomechanism: The reason fever is caused by qi vacuity is because taxation consumes qi. Therefore fever often after overwork flares up or is aggravated; Spleen and stomach are vacuous and they are the source of engendering transformation of the blood and qi, the zangfu channels lose their nourishment, and this leads to dizziness, SOB, laziness to speak, fatigue, and lack of strength; Central qi is insufficient, spleen loses its healthy transportation ability, therefore little desire for food and sloppy stools; If there is qi vacuity and the exterior is not secure then there is spontaneous sweating, and one easily catches colds. The tongue is pale and the coat is thin and white, the pulse is vacuous and weak all are the pattern of qi vacuity. {Please forgive the translation, it was done years ago, and was meant only as a very rough draft at the time, I do not have the original Chinese in front of me to go over it} Of note is that even though these descriptions of the pathomechanism are quite basic, there is no mention of dampness. This does not say that dampness cannot occur with qi xu fever. It definitely does, just as blood stasis can (and does) occur with qi xu heat etc. But as with most concurrent patterns, we not only have different pathomechanism at play, but get into a whole different array of treatment strategies originally intended for just qi xu heat. Meaning a simple BZYQT is no longer indicated. For example the above chapter mentions herbs for qu xi (fever) with a simultaneous excess pattern of dampness. The medicinals indicated are: cang zhu, hou po, huo xiang, pei lan, fu ling. For concurrent damp-heat (huang bai, cang zhu etc). Both of theses are considered simultaneous excess and deficiency patterns. When I see treatments like that it no loner is in the same realm as the pathomechanism that we see for BZYQT. Meaning it is not that enlightening to see damp-heat s/s and then see huang bai recommended. It does goes to show that essentially you treat what you see, as many have suggested. But I think understanding the basic pathomechanism without all of the possible complications is essential to understanding qi xu heat. Meaning if we say dampness is essentially sinking into the lower burner and misplacing ministerial fire, then we should see signs of dampness. IMO, as soon as we see signs of dampness BZYQT is no longer indicated, but must be modified. If we look at the s/s typically associated with qi xu heat (and hence BZYQT), there are no damp signs listed, therefore I have a problem with using it to describe the pathomechanism that causes the heat. I would though like to see some sources that discuss this. For a more detailed explanation of what I have seen in the Chinese literature for the pathomechanism for the heat caused by qi deficiency you may check out my above mentioned yinfire article. I find this topic very interesting. Comments? - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2007 Report Share Posted March 13, 2007 Jason I have used ru gui often for yang def heat rising - Tuesday, March 13, 2007 4:58 PM RE: empty heat with Qi or Yang Xu (See below inserts) _____ On Behalf Of sharon weizenbaum Li Dong Yuan states the when the Qi is deficient there is a dropping down of dampness toward the Ming Men. Sharon, Can you point me to a where LDY says there is a dropping of Dampness (besides an Westerner's commentary?). It is interesting that in my reading of Chinese commentaries and articles on yinfire I have never seen dampness mentioned as part of the pathomechanism. I discussed this issue in my essay: Yinfire and its Pathomechanism (Chinese Medicine/index.php?page=Chinese_Medicine_Articles) . Since the writing of that piece I have always been on the lookout for more extensive articles on the topic. Have you found something that discusses this? Furthermore, IMO, if there is qi xu heat, one does not clear deficient heat, but instead tonifies the qi, as in BZYQT, and this will eliminate the heat. Yes the qi tonics do indirectly eliminate the heat, and of course are indicated for qi deficiency heat, but I do not think they are referred to as medicinals that clear deficient heat. This, IMO, is a confusing use of the term. Such medicinals like huang qi are still said to " Tonify the Spleen and raise the yang. " What is your take on it? Furthermore, I am curious what medicinals you are recommending here to clear deficient heat, if not BZYQT ingredients. (Sharon) That Ming Men fire and Dampness cannot abide in the same place and so the Ming Men fire flares. This is why feverishness is one of the main symptoms associated with Bu Zhong Yi Qi Tang. I always thought it was qi sinking, not dampness. (Sharon)A formula such as Er Xian Tang (Two Immortals) is designed for hot flashes due to Yang deficiency. It tonifies Yang and clears empty heat with no Yin tonics. Yes but Er Xian Tang has huang bai and zhi mu. and hence is said to be a kidney yin and yang deficiency. It is of course deficiency heat, but not from just Yang xu, but also yin xu. This modern formula is in my experience very controversial. Here is a quick excerpt on yang xu fever (fa re) from a section of a pretty thorough Internal Medicine (Chinese) book. (Bing yin)(Cause of Disease) Yang-qi vacuity (fa re)- Spleen and kidney yang deficiency, or constitutional yang insufficiency, or excessive taxation, or an enduring cold pattern that damages the yang, excessive use of cold medicinals, resulting in kidney yang deficiency, fire not returning to the source, deficient yang floating and straying to the exterior and causing heat effusion. Here is what is listed under the pathomechanism (bing ji) for yang xu fever (From the same book): Yang vacuity fever - If the yang qi is vacuous and yin cold is internally generated, then yang does not have a place to reside, it floats and scatters to the exterior and creates fever. Because fever is the tip and yang qi is vacuous, then loss of warmth is the root. Even though there is a fever, one desires to be covered while simultaneously having physical cold, fear of cold, prefers to lie, sore lower back and knees, pale and plump tongue, or has teeth marks, coat is fair and delicate (bairun), pulse is deep, thin and lacks force. The pathomechanism for qi xu is as follows: (Only somewhat helpful) Qi vacuity fever - If there is spleen and stomach qi vacuity, central qi insufficiency, and internally generated yin fire, this leads to fever. If at the root there is qi vacuity, and there is a situation of taxation, then there will be more consumption of qi. Therefore many fevers occur or become worse after overwork. If there is spleen and stomach qi vacuity, which is the source of qi & blood engendering transformation, then this can lead to dizziness, lack of strength, palpitations, SOB, laziness to talk, pale tongue, and weak pulse. If central qi is insufficient this can lead to qi vacuity sinking, which can been seen as enduring diarrhea, dysentery, organ prolapse, uterine bleeding etc. If there is qi vacuity not securing then you will see spontaneous sweating, and easily catching a cold. Analysis of the pathomechanism: The reason fever is caused by qi vacuity is because taxation consumes qi. Therefore fever often after overwork flares up or is aggravated; Spleen and stomach are vacuous and they are the source of engendering transformation of the blood and qi, the zangfu channels lose their nourishment, and this leads to dizziness, SOB, laziness to speak, fatigue, and lack of strength; Central qi is insufficient, spleen loses its healthy transportation ability, therefore little desire for food and sloppy stools; If there is qi vacuity and the exterior is not secure then there is spontaneous sweating, and one easily catches colds. The tongue is pale and the coat is thin and white, the pulse is vacuous and weak all are the pattern of qi vacuity. {Please forgive the translation, it was done years ago, and was meant only as a very rough draft at the time, I do not have the original Chinese in front of me to go over it} Of note is that even though these descriptions of the pathomechanism are quite basic, there is no mention of dampness. This does not say that dampness cannot occur with qi xu fever. It definitely does, just as blood stasis can (and does) occur with qi xu heat etc. But as with most concurrent patterns, we not only have different pathomechanism at play, but get into a whole different array of treatment strategies originally intended for just qi xu heat. Meaning a simple BZYQT is no longer indicated. For example the above chapter mentions herbs for qu xi (fever) with a simultaneous excess pattern of dampness. The medicinals indicated are: cang zhu, hou po, huo xiang, pei lan, fu ling. For concurrent damp-heat (huang bai, cang zhu etc). Both of theses are considered simultaneous excess and deficiency patterns. When I see treatments like that it no loner is in the same realm as the pathomechanism that we see for BZYQT. Meaning it is not that enlightening to see damp-heat s/s and then see huang bai recommended. It does goes to show that essentially you treat what you see, as many have suggested. But I think understanding the basic pathomechanism without all of the possible complications is essential to understanding qi xu heat. Meaning if we say dampness is essentially sinking into the lower burner and misplacing ministerial fire, then we should see signs of dampness. IMO, as soon as we see signs of dampness BZYQT is no longer indicated, but must be modified. If we look at the s/s typically associated with qi xu heat (and hence BZYQT), there are no damp signs listed, therefore I have a problem with using it to describe the pathomechanism that causes the heat. I would though like to see some sources that discuss this. For a more detailed explanation of what I have seen in the Chinese literature for the pathomechanism for the heat caused by qi deficiency you may check out my above mentioned yinfire article. I find this topic very interesting. Comments? - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2007 Report Share Posted March 13, 2007 Ok, I am going to eat my words a bit, I found this commentary in (a) ( theory of Cause of Disease and Pathomechanisms ) zhong yi bing yin bing ji xue. " Spleen qi deficiency leads to clear yang not ascending, and yang qi internally constrains which can produce the pathological engenderment of qi deficiency which gives rise to heat. Li Dong-yuan said in the <nei wai shang bian huo lun>, " [this kind of] heat is not from damage by cold evil in-between the skin and hair. It is from damp-qi of the spleen and stomach flowing downward in-between the kidneys, congesting in the lower burner, this is yinfire...What this is saying is, that spleen and stomach qi deficiency leads to clear yang not ascending, resulting in grain and water essence qi flowing downwards, turning into dampness, clear yang sinks down and is unable to ascend, and thereupon turns into FALSE HEAT (jia re). (emphasized because of the terminological usage). Therefore this type of qi and blood fever's pathological nature is a result of spleen qi sinking downward. " It is interesting that the second part that comments on the pathomechanism definitely downplays the idea of damp sinking, as do many other commentaries that talk about Li Dong-Yuan's yinfire. Let's look further. Ok I went through a bunch of internet searching as well as some books. There clearly is varying opinions on the pathomechanism for qi xu heat. For example, I found this summary of possible expalnations, " 1) Li dong yuan's spleen and stomach qi deficiency sinks downward into the kidneys and yinfire ascends creating fever. 2)Zhang jing yue's middle burner deficiency cold leading to spleen and stomach qi sinking leading to floating yang fever. 3) li zhong zi's earth not generating metal, exterior deficiency fever from lung defense insecurity ; 4) Other ideas like spleen deficiency leading to insufficiency of the source of transformation leading to blood xu fever. " Interestingly the above author (Zheng Xue-Bao) thinks that the following pathomechanism (Li dong-yuan's) is the most notable, and sums it up with " spleen and stomach deficiency and central qi insufficiency, leads to the qi mechanism sinking downward and deficiency yang effuses outward. " Although he does not consider THIS is an accurate description and thinks that it is really more about constraint, for example, " spleen and stomach deficiency leads to a lack of strength of the qi mechanism, and then there is abnormal upbearing and downbearing, leading to constraint that generates heat. " But anyway you slice it you still treat with BZYQT. So call it qi sinking, damp sinking, the qi mechanism sinking, yang sinking, or constraint building up because of deficiency. The treatment is essentially the most important aspect. Therefore I choose to stick to what the formula (BZYQT) represents to me, and dampness doesn't really fit into that picture. Comments? - _____ On Behalf Of Tuesday, March 13, 2007 5:58 PM RE: empty heat with Qi or Yang Xu (See below inserts) _____ @ <%40> [@ <%40> ] On Behalf Of sharon weizenbaum Li Dong Yuan states the when the Qi is deficient there is a dropping down of dampness toward the Ming Men. Sharon, Can you point me to a where LDY says there is a dropping of Dampness (besides an Westerner's commentary?). It is interesting that in my reading of Chinese commentaries and articles on yinfire I have never seen dampness mentioned as part of the pathomechanism. I discussed this issue in my essay: Yinfire and its Pathomechanism (http://www.chinesem <Chinese Medicine/index.php?page=Chinese_Medicine_Articles> edicinedoc.com/index.php?page=Chinese_Medicine_Articles) .. Since the writing of that piece I have always been on the lookout for more extensive articles on the topic. Have you found something that discusses this? Furthermore, IMO, if there is qi xu heat, one does not clear deficient heat, but instead tonifies the qi, as in BZYQT, and this will eliminate the heat. Yes the qi tonics do indirectly eliminate the heat, and of course are indicated for qi deficiency heat, but I do not think they are referred to as medicinals that clear deficient heat. This, IMO, is a confusing use of the term. Such medicinals like huang qi are still said to " Tonify the Spleen and raise the yang. " What is your take on it? Furthermore, I am curious what medicinals you are recommending here to clear deficient heat, if not BZYQT ingredients. (Sharon) That Ming Men fire and Dampness cannot abide in the same place and so the Ming Men fire flares. This is why feverishness is one of the main symptoms associated with Bu Zhong Yi Qi Tang. I always thought it was qi sinking, not dampness. (Sharon)A formula such as Er Xian Tang (Two Immortals) is designed for hot flashes due to Yang deficiency. It tonifies Yang and clears empty heat with no Yin tonics. Yes but Er Xian Tang has huang bai and zhi mu. and hence is said to be a kidney yin and yang deficiency. It is of course deficiency heat, but not from just Yang xu, but also yin xu. This modern formula is in my experience very controversial. Here is a quick excerpt on yang xu fever (fa re) from a section of a pretty thorough Internal Medicine (Chinese) book. (Bing yin)(Cause of Disease) Yang-qi vacuity (fa re)- Spleen and kidney yang deficiency, or constitutional yang insufficiency, or excessive taxation, or an enduring cold pattern that damages the yang, excessive use of cold medicinals, resulting in kidney yang deficiency, fire not returning to the source, deficient yang floating and straying to the exterior and causing heat effusion. Here is what is listed under the pathomechanism (bing ji) for yang xu fever (From the same book): Yang vacuity fever - If the yang qi is vacuous and yin cold is internally generated, then yang does not have a place to reside, it floats and scatters to the exterior and creates fever. Because fever is the tip and yang qi is vacuous, then loss of warmth is the root. Even though there is a fever, one desires to be covered while simultaneously having physical cold, fear of cold, prefers to lie, sore lower back and knees, pale and plump tongue, or has teeth marks, coat is fair and delicate (bairun), pulse is deep, thin and lacks force. The pathomechanism for qi xu is as follows: (Only somewhat helpful) Qi vacuity fever - If there is spleen and stomach qi vacuity, central qi insufficiency, and internally generated yin fire, this leads to fever. If at the root there is qi vacuity, and there is a situation of taxation, then there will be more consumption of qi. Therefore many fevers occur or become worse after overwork. If there is spleen and stomach qi vacuity, which is the source of qi & blood engendering transformation, then this can lead to dizziness, lack of strength, palpitations, SOB, laziness to talk, pale tongue, and weak pulse. If central qi is insufficient this can lead to qi vacuity sinking, which can been seen as enduring diarrhea, dysentery, organ prolapse, uterine bleeding etc. If there is qi vacuity not securing then you will see spontaneous sweating, and easily catching a cold. Analysis of the pathomechanism: The reason fever is caused by qi vacuity is because taxation consumes qi. Therefore fever often after overwork flares up or is aggravated; Spleen and stomach are vacuous and they are the source of engendering transformation of the blood and qi, the zangfu channels lose their nourishment, and this leads to dizziness, SOB, laziness to speak, fatigue, and lack of strength; Central qi is insufficient, spleen loses its healthy transportation ability, therefore little desire for food and sloppy stools; If there is qi vacuity and the exterior is not secure then there is spontaneous sweating, and one easily catches colds. The tongue is pale and the coat is thin and white, the pulse is vacuous and weak all are the pattern of qi vacuity. {Please forgive the translation, it was done years ago, and was meant only as a very rough draft at the time, I do not have the original Chinese in front of me to go over it} Of note is that even though these descriptions of the pathomechanism are quite basic, there is no mention of dampness. This does not say that dampness cannot occur with qi xu fever. It definitely does, just as blood stasis can (and does) occur with qi xu heat etc. But as with most concurrent patterns, we not only have different pathomechanism at play, but get into a whole different array of treatment strategies originally intended for just qi xu heat. Meaning a simple BZYQT is no longer indicated. For example the above chapter mentions herbs for qu xi (fever) with a simultaneous excess pattern of dampness. The medicinals indicated are: cang zhu, hou po, huo xiang, pei lan, fu ling. For concurrent damp-heat (huang bai, cang zhu etc). Both of theses are considered simultaneous excess and deficiency patterns. When I see treatments like that it no loner is in the same realm as the pathomechanism that we see for BZYQT. Meaning it is not that enlightening to see damp-heat s/s and then see huang bai recommended. It does goes to show that essentially you treat what you see, as many have suggested. But I think understanding the basic pathomechanism without all of the possible complications is essential to understanding qi xu heat. Meaning if we say dampness is essentially sinking into the lower burner and misplacing ministerial fire, then we should see signs of dampness. IMO, as soon as we see signs of dampness BZYQT is no longer indicated, but must be modified. If we look at the s/s typically associated with qi xu heat (and hence BZYQT), there are no damp signs listed, therefore I have a problem with using it to describe the pathomechanism that causes the heat. I would though like to see some sources that discuss this. For a more detailed explanation of what I have seen in the Chinese literature for the pathomechanism for the heat caused by qi deficiency you may check out my above mentioned yinfire article. I find this topic very interesting. Comments? - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 Jason- I have heard of the below excerpt and always assumed that the " deficiency yang effusing outward " was parallel to the idea of floating yang in yang vacuity. Now that I think about it, I understand how BZYQT would not really work for that idea. BZYQT is definitely about supplementing the center and moving constraint than anchoring any floating qi/yang. Now I am thinking about other ideas that seem similar to this in my mind. How would you (or others) explain how Heart qi and yang vacuity can lead to insomnia? -Steve On Mar 13, 2007, at 9:42 PM, wrote: > " spleen and stomach deficiency and central qi insufficiency, leads to > the qi > mechanism sinking downward and deficiency yang effuses outward. " > Stephen Bonzak, L.Ac., Dipl. C.H. sbonzak 773-470-6994 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2007 Report Share Posted March 15, 2007 Stephen, I think the quote you snipped below is specially used to describe the pathomechanism for BZYQT. This is from Li-Dong-Yuan's idea. The author is just using the description of " qi mechanism sinking downward. " But the point is that, whatever is happening, is a result of Spleen and Stomach Deficiency, essentially central qi deficiency. Therefore the treatment is boost the qi (etc) with BZYQT. Therefore if you understand the pathomechanism on how this (qi xu) heat is created then you can understand how it eliminates the floating yang (or yinfire). For example, BZYQT does not anchor floating yang like rou gui (leads fire back to its source). BZYQT eliminates the cause for the floating yang at the root. It boosts the qi so it does not sink down into the lower burner displacing the ministerial fire, which then floats upward. (At least this is one traditional way to describe things). As far and heart yang xu causing insomnia. I am not sure, I have never treated this nor read about it. I am sure somewhere someone says something :-). I do know there can be heart and kidney (not communicating) yang xu that can lead to insomnia, where the life-gate fire is unable to rise up to the heart. Hope this helps, - _____ On Behalf Of Stephen Bonzak Wednesday, March 14, 2007 6:58 PM Re: empty heat with Qi or Yang Xu Jason- I have heard of the below excerpt and always assumed that the " deficiency yang effusing outward " was parallel to the idea of floating yang in yang vacuity. Now that I think about it, I understand how BZYQT would not really work for that idea. BZYQT is definitely about supplementing the center and moving constraint than anchoring any floating qi/yang. Now I am thinking about other ideas that seem similar to this in my mind. How would you (or others) explain how Heart qi and yang vacuity can lead to insomnia? -Steve On Mar 13, 2007, at 9:42 PM, wrote: > " spleen and stomach deficiency and central qi insufficiency, leads to > the qi > mechanism sinking downward and deficiency yang effuses outward. " > Stephen Bonzak, L.Ac., Dipl. C.H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2007 Report Share Posted March 15, 2007 Jason Out of curiosity have you used ru gui in patients with def yang and heat rising but clearly not yang loosing its root, ie the patient is not sick enough for such dx. I have found ru gui still helpful - Thursday, March 15, 2007 8:01 AM RE: empty heat with Qi or Yang Xu Stephen, I think the quote you snipped below is specially used to describe the pathomechanism for BZYQT. This is from Li-Dong-Yuan's idea. The author is just using the description of " qi mechanism sinking downward. " But the point is that, whatever is happening, is a result of Spleen and Stomach Deficiency, essentially central qi deficiency. Therefore the treatment is boost the qi (etc) with BZYQT. Therefore if you understand the pathomechanism on how this (qi xu) heat is created then you can understand how it eliminates the floating yang (or yinfire). For example, BZYQT does not anchor floating yang like rou gui (leads fire back to its source). BZYQT eliminates the cause for the floating yang at the root. It boosts the qi so it does not sink down into the lower burner displacing the ministerial fire, which then floats upward. (At least this is one traditional way to describe things). As far and heart yang xu causing insomnia. I am not sure, I have never treated this nor read about it. I am sure somewhere someone says something :-). I do know there can be heart and kidney (not communicating) yang xu that can lead to insomnia, where the life-gate fire is unable to rise up to the heart. Hope this helps, - _____ On Behalf Of Stephen Bonzak Wednesday, March 14, 2007 6:58 PM Re: empty heat with Qi or Yang Xu Jason- I have heard of the below excerpt and always assumed that the " deficiency yang effusing outward " was parallel to the idea of floating yang in yang vacuity. Now that I think about it, I understand how BZYQT would not really work for that idea. BZYQT is definitely about supplementing the center and moving constraint than anchoring any floating qi/yang. Now I am thinking about other ideas that seem similar to this in my mind. How would you (or others) explain how Heart qi and yang vacuity can lead to insomnia? -Steve On Mar 13, 2007, at 9:42 PM, wrote: > " spleen and stomach deficiency and central qi insufficiency, leads to > the qi > mechanism sinking downward and deficiency yang effuses outward. " > Stephen Bonzak, L.Ac., Dipl. C.H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2007 Report Share Posted March 15, 2007 On 3/13/07, wrote: > > Ok, I am going to eat my words a bit, > Eating your own words can nourish humility which ultimately promotes a superior practitioner. > > Interestingly the above author (Zheng Xue-Bao) [...] thinks that [yin > fire] is > really more about constraint, for example, " spleen and stomach deficiency > leads to a lack of strength of the qi mechanism, and then there is > abnormal > upbearing and downbearing, leading to constraint that generates heat. " > This is Tiande Yang's take on yin fire too. He's quite the fan of BZYQT and I've often seen him use its components and principles. Ji Zhang, whom many of us in the LA area know and respect, promotes the idea that with qi deficiency, the yang is too weak to externalize, but rather remains within the yin where it heats up and causes the low grade fever. -- Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2007 Report Share Posted March 15, 2007 _____ On Behalf Of Al Stone This is Tiande Yang's take on yin fire too. He's quite the fan of BZYQT and I've often seen him use its components and principles. Ji Zhang, whom many of us in the LA area know and respect, promotes the idea that with qi deficiency, the yang is too weak to externalize, but rather remains within the yin where it heats up and causes the low grade fever. IMO, both the constraint idea and Ji Zhang's " yang being too weak " make more sense that the way yinfire is typically described (qi sinking etc.). But in the end they are just stories to explain why BZYQT works. -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2007 Report Share Posted March 15, 2007 Alon, Yes I have used Rou Gui a few times for such situations. Since it has been in context of a formula of usually 8-12 ingredients I am unsure of it efficacy in and of itself. -Jason _____ On Behalf Of Alon Marcus Thursday, March 15, 2007 10:01 AM Re: empty heat with Qi or Yang Xu Jason Out of curiosity have you used ru gui in patients with def yang and heat rising but clearly not yang loosing its root, ie the patient is not sick enough for such dx. I have found ru gui still helpful - @ <%40> Thursday, March 15, 2007 8:01 AM RE: empty heat with Qi or Yang Xu Stephen, I think the quote you snipped below is specially used to describe the pathomechanism for BZYQT. This is from Li-Dong-Yuan's idea. The author is just using the description of " qi mechanism sinking downward. " But the point is that, whatever is happening, is a result of Spleen and Stomach Deficiency, essentially central qi deficiency. Therefore the treatment is boost the qi (etc) with BZYQT. Therefore if you understand the pathomechanism on how this (qi xu) heat is created then you can understand how it eliminates the floating yang (or yinfire). For example, BZYQT does not anchor floating yang like rou gui (leads fire back to its source). BZYQT eliminates the cause for the floating yang at the root. It boosts the qi so it does not sink down into the lower burner displacing the ministerial fire, which then floats upward. (At least this is one traditional way to describe things). As far and heart yang xu causing insomnia. I am not sure, I have never treated this nor read about it. I am sure somewhere someone says something :-). I do know there can be heart and kidney (not communicating) yang xu that can lead to insomnia, where the life-gate fire is unable to rise up to the heart. Hope this helps, - _____ @ <%40> [@ <%40> ] On Behalf Of Stephen Bonzak Wednesday, March 14, 2007 6:58 PM @ <%40> Re: empty heat with Qi or Yang Xu Jason- I have heard of the below excerpt and always assumed that the " deficiency yang effusing outward " was parallel to the idea of floating yang in yang vacuity. Now that I think about it, I understand how BZYQT would not really work for that idea. BZYQT is definitely about supplementing the center and moving constraint than anchoring any floating qi/yang. Now I am thinking about other ideas that seem similar to this in my mind. How would you (or others) explain how Heart qi and yang vacuity can lead to insomnia? -Steve On Mar 13, 2007, at 9:42 PM, wrote: > " spleen and stomach deficiency and central qi insufficiency, leads to > the qi > mechanism sinking downward and deficiency yang effuses outward. " > Stephen Bonzak, L.Ac., Dipl. C.H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Jason- Sorry it took me a while to get back to this. In the book, " Pathomechanisms of the Heart " by Yan and Li, the mention that both Heart qi vacuity and Heart yang vacuity can lead to insomnia. They mention that " Heart yang vacuity may also cause an inability to warm and move the qi and blood to nourish the essence spirit. This causes the spirit to fail to keep its abode. Thus, at the time when one should fall asleep, the spirit and the ethereal souls wander externally. This results in fidgetiness whether lying or up, insomnia, and excessive dreaming. " For Heart qi vacuity, they mention a similar pathomechanism. They say that " In the majority of cases of heart qi vacuity, qi vacuity and fatigue of the spirit tend to manifest in the symptoms of encumberance, fatigue, and somnolence. However, it is also possible that debility of heart qi may result in insomnia and profuse dreaming. This occurs because the heart spirit is deprived of nourishment by heart qi, preventing it from sustaining normal mental activities and causing it to fail to keep the spirit abode. " My thoughts on this are similar to what I was trying to describe about the qi vacuity fever (which is probably not correct for qi vacuity fevers now that I think about it, but that is another topic). I wonder if the lack of qi or yang nourishment to the heart spirit causes it to be too weak to penetrate into the yin or blood. The spirit then wanders and fails to keep its abode, not because blood cannot anchor it, but because it is not firm enough to enter the yin or blood at the appropriate time. I am really at a loss to know how to describe the reason qi or yang vacuity results in insomnia otherwise, especially since the treatment is to directly supplement qi or yang with little attention to the blood and yin. Do you, or maybe even Eric Brand (the editor of the book), have any thoughts about how to explain this? Thanks. -Steve On Mar 15, 2007, at 10:01 AM, wrote: > As far and heart yang xu causing insomnia. I am not sure, I have never > treated this nor read about it. I am sure somewhere someone says > something > :-). I do know there can be heart and kidney (not communicating) yang > xu > that can lead to insomnia, where the life-gate fire is unable to rise > up to > the heart. > > Hope this helps, > > - Stephen Bonzak, L.Ac., Dipl. C.H. sbonzak 773-470-6994 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Stephan, I don't have a good answer, thanks though for the informative post. -Jason _____ On Behalf Of Stephen Bonzak Monday, March 19, 2007 6:31 PM Re: empty heat with Qi or Yang Xu Jason- Sorry it took me a while to get back to this. In the book, " Pathomechanisms of the Heart " by Yan and Li, the mention that both Heart qi vacuity and Heart yang vacuity can lead to insomnia. They mention that " Heart yang vacuity may also cause an inability to warm and move the qi and blood to nourish the essence spirit. This causes the spirit to fail to keep its abode. Thus, at the time when one should fall asleep, the spirit and the ethereal souls wander externally. This results in fidgetiness whether lying or up, insomnia, and excessive dreaming. " For Heart qi vacuity, they mention a similar pathomechanism. They say that " In the majority of cases of heart qi vacuity, qi vacuity and fatigue of the spirit tend to manifest in the symptoms of encumberance, fatigue, and somnolence. However, it is also possible that debility of heart qi may result in insomnia and profuse dreaming. This occurs because the heart spirit is deprived of nourishment by heart qi, preventing it from sustaining normal mental activities and causing it to fail to keep the spirit abode. " My thoughts on this are similar to what I was trying to describe about the qi vacuity fever (which is probably not correct for qi vacuity fevers now that I think about it, but that is another topic). I wonder if the lack of qi or yang nourishment to the heart spirit causes it to be too weak to penetrate into the yin or blood. The spirit then wanders and fails to keep its abode, not because blood cannot anchor it, but because it is not firm enough to enter the yin or blood at the appropriate time. I am really at a loss to know how to describe the reason qi or yang vacuity results in insomnia otherwise, especially since the treatment is to directly supplement qi or yang with little attention to the blood and yin. Do you, or maybe even Eric Brand (the editor of the book), have any thoughts about how to explain this? Thanks. -Steve On Mar 15, 2007, at 10:01 AM, wrote: > As far and heart yang xu causing insomnia. I am not sure, I have never > treated this nor read about it. I am sure somewhere someone says > something > :-). I do know there can be heart and kidney (not communicating) yang > xu > that can lead to insomnia, where the life-gate fire is unable to rise > up to > the heart. > > Hope this helps, > > - Stephen Bonzak, L.Ac., Dipl. C.H. sbonzak@pacificcoll <sbonzak%40pacificcollege.edu> ege.edu 773-470-6994 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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