Guest guest Posted March 15, 2007 Report Share Posted March 15, 2007 I would be interested to hear of anybody's positive experiences using herbs to clear or reduce breast lumps or nodules. Thanks! - Bill ............................................. Bill Schoenbart, L.Ac. P.O. Box 8099 Santa Cruz, CA 95061 office phone: 831-335-3165 email: plantmed ............................................. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2007 Report Share Posted March 15, 2007 , " Bill Schoenbart " <plantmed2 wrote: > > I would be interested to hear of anybody's positive experiences using herbs > to clear or reduce breast lumps or nodules. > > Thanks! > > - Bill > > ............................................ > Bill Schoenbart, L.Ac. > P.O. Box 8099 > Santa Cruz, CA 95061 > > office phone: 831-335-3165 > email: plantmed > ............................................ > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2007 Report Share Posted March 15, 2007 Hi Bill, I like to use Scrophularia californica (herb) made into an oil, applied twice daily. Ideally, it is applied with heat (compress). I generally would add this to the formula as well. Chinese herb-wise.........I am inclined to add ba yue zha to the appropriate formula. I've also used Ceanothus as a tincture......good stuff. Thomas Honolulu, HI www.sourcepointherbs.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2007 Report Share Posted March 15, 2007 I had very good results using wang bu liu xing, Quoting jves8 <jves8: > , " Bill Schoenbart " > <plantmed2 wrote: > > > > I would be interested to hear of anybody's positive experiences > using herbs > > to clear or reduce breast lumps or nodules. > > > > Thanks! > > > > - Bill > > > > ............................................ > > Bill Schoenbart, L.Ac. > > P.O. Box 8099 > > Santa Cruz, CA 95061 > > > > office phone: 831-335-3165 > > email: plantmed > > ............................................ > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 I second the wang bu liu xing.... Honolulu, HI www.sourcepointherbs.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 Hi Thomas, Hope all is well in Hawaii. I'm actually looking for specifics to share with herb students. I have only personally seen nodules disappear on the thyroid, not the breast. If you (and others) could provide some details as to the size of the lumps, how long it took for them to disappear, etc., that would be helpful to share with students. - Bill , wrote: > > Hi Bill, > > I like to use Scrophularia californica (herb) made into an oil, applied twice daily. Ideally, it is applied with heat (compress). I generally would add this to the formula as well. > > Chinese herb-wise.........I am inclined to add ba yue zha to the appropriate formula. > > I've also used Ceanothus as a tincture......good stuff. > > Thomas > > > > > > Honolulu, HI > > www.sourcepointherbs.org > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 Thanks J. I have used that formula successfully for thyroid nodules. Could you give some details of any cases of breast nodules that disappeared or shrunk with herb therapy? - Bill , " jves8 " <jves8 wrote: > > , " Bill Schoenbart " > <plantmed2@> wrote: > > > > I would be interested to hear of anybody's positive experiences > using herbs > > to clear or reduce breast lumps or nodules. > > > > Thanks! > > > > - Bill > > > > ............................................ > > Bill Schoenbart, L.Ac. > > P.O. Box 8099 > > Santa Cruz, CA 95061 > > > > office phone: 831-335-3165 > > email: plantmed@ > > ............................................ > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 Could you give some specifics that I could share with students? Size of lumps? Time it took to see results? , mdavid wrote: > > I had very good results using wang bu liu xing, > > Quoting jves8 <jves8: > > > , " Bill Schoenbart " > > <plantmed2@> wrote: > > > > > > I would be interested to hear of anybody's positive experiences > > using herbs > > > to clear or reduce breast lumps or nodules. > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > - Bill > > > > > > ............................................ > > > Bill Schoenbart, L.Ac. > > > P.O. Box 8099 > > > Santa Cruz, CA 95061 > > > > > > office phone: 831-335-3165 > > > email: plantmed@ > > > ............................................ > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 Just wondering if anyone else on the list is uncomfortable with treating a " breast lump " without a WM differential dx. Is it expected that an herbalist or acupuncturist should refer to determine if this " lump " is life threatening? How long do you wait to see if the treatment does not work? Guy Porter ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 On the first visit, I would ask if they have seen an MD about it, what the results were, and strongly suggest that they have it checked out if they haven't. doug , DrGRPorter wrote: > > Just wondering if anyone else on the list is uncomfortable with treating a > " breast lump " without a WM differential dx. Is it expected that an herbalist or > acupuncturist should refer to determine if this " lump " is life threatening? > > How long do you wait to see if the treatment does not work? > > Guy Porter > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 Hi Bill, As I am not in the habit of doing breast examinations, I couldn't say with absolute certainty the size of the lumps treated. I have always taken for granted the patient telling me that they had lumps. Right or wrong, this is the state of our profession. I wish I could say, " Upon examination of Ms. Jones I found three soft lumps approximately 2cm in diameter.... " I generally advise them to see their gynecologist to be sure there is no malignancy. All that being said, I would expect lumps from plum pit size and smaller to resolve within 3-6 weeks of treatment (perhaps a little longer). Patients often report shrinkage within 2 weeks. General treatment consists of formulas such as those found in Liu Feng-wu's Gynecology book (Blue Poppy Press) under " Fibrous Hyperplastic Breast Disease Case Histories. " I generally have modified them as needed and if I can get the patient to apply the oil as mentioned in my first post, add that as an adjunct therapy. All this being said, this all depends on the chronicity and the compliance of the patient. Thus, results may vary. Hope this helps. Thomas I hope to see you when I'm in Santa Cruz next weekend........ Honolulu, HI www.sourcepointherbs.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Dear Bob: In a message dated 3/19/2007 10:06:17 A.M. Central Standard Time, pemachophel2001 writes: I did a CM pattern discrimination and diagnosed cold in the lver channel. I gave him an herbal Rx and the pain was better as long as he took the herbs I totally applaud your strong stance! The case you describe is precisely how a Chinese Doctor would have encountered testicular cancer several hundred years ago. At that time, there was no diagnosis of " cancer " available. Interestingly, the Liver channel formula " Worked! " 200 years ago no one would have been able to link the testicular pain to the eventual death this young man would have suffered. That's why I find it curious whenever someone on this list wants to treat cancer. I know that when I was in school, there was a clique of students who wanted to do this with various natural therapies and it often was seen as a great merit of some sort to dive into this most dreaded of diseases. I don't think that's the smartest use of CM. Dentists don't try to prescribe eyeglasses. In 1985 or so, the Chiropractic associations all got together and created a standard of practice document. Of course, there was howling and gnashing of teeth. However, after five years or so the anger calmed down and it helped the profession move forward. It even pointed the way for some pretty cool funded research. (Funded by NIH) Is there a group of appropriate CM groups that might get together and create such a baseline manual of standards for Chinese Herbalists and Acupuncturists? Guy Porter ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 All, " As I am not in the habit of doing breast examinations, I couldn't say with absolute certainty the size of the lumps treated. I have always taken for granted the patient telling me that they had lumps. Right or wrong, this is the state of our profession. " I agree, this is the state of our profession. But it definitely is wrong. Twenty or so years ago, I had a student. He came to see me one day because he said one of his testicles hurt. I did a CM pattern discrimination and diagnosed cold in the lver channel. I gave him an herbal Rx and the pain was better as long as he took the herbs. I did not palpate his testicles due to embarassment. By the time he was diagnosed with testicular cancer, it had metastasized to his abdomen. The good news is that he is alive and well today. He's even an acupuncturist. The bad news is that he lost a testicle and went through some pretty rough chemo. His parents also tried to sue me for every thing I and my family had. The only bright spot there was that I didn't have anything for a lawyer to win. So they couldn't find a lawyer to prosecute the case. This was before we had mandatory malpractice insurance here in CO. What I learned from this: If we are going to practice medicine, we have to behave like doctors, and that always means palpating any areas in which the patient says she or he has symptoms. If the knee hurts, we have to visually inspect and palpate the knee. If there is a breast lump, we have to palpate the breast. If that means having a chaperone in the office, so be it. In the Netherlands, they have a saying that goes something like this: Soft doctors make bad sores. The meaning is that a doctor has to do what a doctor has to do without being squeamish, prudish, or embarassed by it. Otherwise, patients may suffer even greater disease. In China, all my teachers in clinic always palpated any area of concern. If we're not willing to visually inspect and palpate a woman's breast who says she has a lump or lumps, then we need to stop treating women with breast problems unless there is a confirmed diagnosis by another licensed health care privider. However, even then, I think we need to look and feel for ourselves in order to really understand the patient's situation. What if the other practitioner was wrong or the patient's situation had changed since then? I have felt several women's breast cancer tumors who lived in denial. They had large, plaque-like tumors like a piece of a turtle shell, just like what Zhu Dan-xi describes. They had all refused to go to Western doctors for fear of the true diagnosis (and prognosis). Instead, they had gone to macrobiotics, homeopaths, acupuncturists, etc., none of whom had palpated their breasts. All these women are now dead. By the time they were diagnosed, their tumors were very advanced with lots of metastases. According to Zhu, by the time I palpated their tumors, their cases was already hopeless. All were relatively young, married, and had children. Such tragedies. If this really is the state of our profession (and I think Thomas is right that it is), we need to change this. If we don't awarding ourselves doctorates won't make us doctors. My two cents. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Bob- On the other hand, even if we do palpate both of those areas, both of those patients probably should have been referred out for western biomedical diagnosis if they had not already had it done. I agree that we should palpate, etc, but that still does not mean we can make the diagnosis. Because of my lack of experience in feeling a wide range of pathologic breast and testicular tissue, even if I had palpated both of those patients, I would have still referred them to be checked for cancer. -Steve On Mar 19, 2007, at 11:00 AM, Bob Flaws wrote: > All, > > " As I am not in the habit of doing breast examinations, I couldn't say > with absolute certainty the size of the lumps treated. I have always > taken for granted the patient telling me that they had lumps. Right or > wrong, this is the state of our profession. " > > I agree, this is the state of our profession. But it definitely is > wrong. > > Twenty or so years ago, I had a student. He came to see me one day > because he said one of his testicles hurt. I did a CM pattern > discrimination and diagnosed cold in the lver channel. I gave him an > herbal Rx and the pain was better as long as he took the herbs. I did > not palpate his testicles due to embarassment. By the time he was > diagnosed with testicular cancer, it had metastasized to his abdomen. > The good news is that he is alive and well today. He's even an > acupuncturist. The bad news is that he lost a testicle and went > through some pretty rough chemo. His parents also tried to sue me for > every thing I and my family had. The only bright spot there was that I > didn't have anything for a lawyer to win. So they couldn't find a > lawyer to prosecute the case. This was before we had mandatory > malpractice insurance here in CO. > > What I learned from this: If we are going to practice medicine, we > have to behave like doctors, and that always means palpating any areas > in which the patient says she or he has symptoms. If the knee hurts, > we have to visually inspect and palpate the knee. If there is a breast > lump, we have to palpate the breast. If that means having a chaperone > in the office, so be it. In the Netherlands, they have a saying that > goes something like this: Soft doctors make bad sores. The meaning is > that a doctor has to do what a doctor has to do without being > squeamish, prudish, or embarassed by it. Otherwise, patients may > suffer even greater disease. In China, all my teachers in clinic > always palpated any area of concern. If we're not willing to visually > inspect and palpate a woman's breast who says she has a lump or lumps, > then we need to stop treating women with breast problems unless there > is a confirmed diagnosis by another licensed health care privider. > However, even then, I think we need to look and feel for ourselves in > order to really understand the patient's situation. What if the other > practitioner was wrong or the patient's situation had changed since > then? > > I have felt several women's breast cancer tumors who lived in denial. > They had large, plaque-like tumors like a piece of a turtle shell, > just like what Zhu Dan-xi describes. They had all refused to go to > Western doctors for fear of the true diagnosis (and prognosis). > Instead, they had gone to macrobiotics, homeopaths, acupuncturists, > etc., none of whom had palpated their breasts. All these women are now > dead. By the time they were diagnosed, their tumors were very advanced > with lots of metastases. According to Zhu, by the time I palpated > their tumors, their cases was already hopeless. All were relatively > young, married, and had children. Such tragedies. > > If this really is the state of our profession (and I think Thomas is > right that it is), we need to change this. If we don't awarding > ourselves doctorates won't make us doctors. > > My two cents. > > Bob > > Stephen Bonzak, L.Ac., Dipl. C.H. sbonzak 773-470-6994 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Great post - I would only add that when I do a breast exam, it is only after explaining to a patient the need for and purpose of the exam, and proceed if the patient agrees. If a patient is complaining of a breast lump, this is not a hard/difficult thing to do. I haven't had anyone not agree to it nor feel 'funny' about it when it's necessary. If you are professional (acting like a doctor) I can't imagine your patients will be uncomfortable. However, with minors, I always would have a parent present regardless. Also, if your spidey-sense is going off with about a possible 'problem' patient, a chaperon is a great idea. The other benefit for doing this is that you will often have a better relationship with your patients than they may with their GP's. If you think there is a potential referral problem, they are often more receptive to your suggestion for a more detailed exam from the Western docs than on their own volition. Geoff , " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001 wrote: > > All, > > " As I am not in the habit of doing breast examinations, I couldn't say > with absolute certainty the size of the lumps treated. I have always > taken for granted the patient telling me that they had lumps. Right or > wrong, this is the state of our profession. " > > I agree, this is the state of our profession. But it definitely is wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 I disagree with your conclusions here, Bob. If I were to palpate and not find a mass then I would be negligent. However, if I refer out, put that in my chart, I save myself some grief and most importantly see that the patient gets a true diagnosis. If the patient themselve can feel the mass and direct it to me, then I will palpate, but out of interest and not diagnosis. A true diagnosis comes with a biopsy and mammogram, CAT etc.. The self- exam is the first step. In California, we are not allowed to diagnose. Some would like to change that but I with this restriction we are also then not responsible for the diagnosis. I believe this is the safest for the patient. If I wanted the responsibility then I would go through an MD program and the respective specialities. If there is/was and issue with your case is that the referring out wasn't done or done strongly enough. Saying that nothing is felt is not indication of cancer free and might as easily be litigated with that diagnosis. Acupuncturists in China may palpate but one at a Masters level will also have an MD credential. To do a complete Western breast exam can take half an hour at least. I'm not againest the exams but if an acupuncturist wants to start doing them they had better get very good training and then be responsible for it. The most helpful thing I think is to encourage self- exam, for both women and men and testicular self exam for men as well as annual exams and prompt follow-up by professionals who see this every day. I've also seen women with incredibly advanced breast cancer to the point of open weeping sores, but they know darn well what they have, their denial is that Western Medicine could have helped them. doug , " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001 wrote: > > All, > > " As I am not in the habit of doing breast examinations, I couldn't say > with absolute certainty the size of the lumps treated. I have always > taken for granted the patient telling me that they had lumps. Right or > wrong, this is the state of our profession. " > > I agree, this is the state of our profession. But it definitely is wrong. > > Twenty or so years ago, I had a student. He came to see me one day > because he said one of his testicles hurt. I did a CM pattern > discrimination and diagnosed cold in the lver channel. I gave him an > herbal Rx and the pain was better as long as he took the herbs. I did > not palpate his testicles due to embarassment. By the time he was > diagnosed with testicular cancer, it had metastasized to his abdomen. > The good news is that he is alive and well today. He's even an > acupuncturist. The bad news is that he lost a testicle and went > through some pretty rough chemo. His parents also tried to sue me for > every thing I and my family had. The only bright spot there was that I > didn't have anything for a lawyer to win. So they couldn't find a > lawyer to prosecute the case. This was before we had mandatory > malpractice insurance here in CO. > > What I learned from this: If we are going to practice medicine, we > have to behave like doctors, and that always means palpating any areas > in which the patient says she or he has symptoms. If the knee hurts, > we have to visually inspect and palpate the knee. If there is a breast > lump, we have to palpate the breast. If that means having a chaperone > in the office, so be it. In the Netherlands, they have a saying that > goes something like this: Soft doctors make bad sores. The meaning is > that a doctor has to do what a doctor has to do without being > squeamish, prudish, or embarassed by it. Otherwise, patients may > suffer even greater disease. In China, all my teachers in clinic > always palpated any area of concern. If we're not willing to visually > inspect and palpate a woman's breast who says she has a lump or lumps, > then we need to stop treating women with breast problems unless there > is a confirmed diagnosis by another licensed health care privider. > However, even then, I think we need to look and feel for ourselves in > order to really understand the patient's situation. What if the other > practitioner was wrong or the patient's situation had changed since then? > > I have felt several women's breast cancer tumors who lived in denial. > They had large, plaque-like tumors like a piece of a turtle shell, > just like what Zhu Dan-xi describes. They had all refused to go to > Western doctors for fear of the true diagnosis (and prognosis). > Instead, they had gone to macrobiotics, homeopaths, acupuncturists, > etc., none of whom had palpated their breasts. All these women are now > dead. By the time they were diagnosed, their tumors were very advanced > with lots of metastases. According to Zhu, by the time I palpated > their tumors, their cases was already hopeless. All were relatively > young, married, and had children. Such tragedies. > > If this really is the state of our profession (and I think Thomas is > right that it is), we need to change this. If we don't awarding > ourselves doctorates won't make us doctors. > > My two cents. > > Bob > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 For premenopausal women always conceder thermography as it gives more info the mammography - Monday, March 19, 2007 1:30 PM Re:herbs for nodules, breast lumps I disagree with your conclusions here, Bob. If I were to palpate and not find a mass then I would be negligent. However, if I refer out, put that in my chart, I save myself some grief and most importantly see that the patient gets a true diagnosis. If the patient themselve can feel the mass and direct it to me, then I will palpate, but out of interest and not diagnosis. A true diagnosis comes with a biopsy and mammogram, CAT etc.. The self- exam is the first step. In California, we are not allowed to diagnose. Some would like to change that but I with this restriction we are also then not responsible for the diagnosis. I believe this is the safest for the patient. If I wanted the responsibility then I would go through an MD program and the respective specialities. If there is/was and issue with your case is that the referring out wasn't done or done strongly enough. Saying that nothing is felt is not indication of cancer free and might as easily be litigated with that diagnosis. Acupuncturists in China may palpate but one at a Masters level will also have an MD credential. To do a complete Western breast exam can take half an hour at least. I'm not againest the exams but if an acupuncturist wants to start doing them they had better get very good training and then be responsible for it. The most helpful thing I think is to encourage self- exam, for both women and men and testicular self exam for men as well as annual exams and prompt follow-up by professionals who see this every day. I've also seen women with incredibly advanced breast cancer to the point of open weeping sores, but they know darn well what they have, their denial is that Western Medicine could have helped them. doug , " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001 wrote: > > All, > > " As I am not in the habit of doing breast examinations, I couldn't say > with absolute certainty the size of the lumps treated. I have always > taken for granted the patient telling me that they had lumps. Right or > wrong, this is the state of our profession. " > > I agree, this is the state of our profession. But it definitely is wrong. > > Twenty or so years ago, I had a student. He came to see me one day > because he said one of his testicles hurt. I did a CM pattern > discrimination and diagnosed cold in the lver channel. I gave him an > herbal Rx and the pain was better as long as he took the herbs. I did > not palpate his testicles due to embarassment. By the time he was > diagnosed with testicular cancer, it had metastasized to his abdomen. > The good news is that he is alive and well today. He's even an > acupuncturist. The bad news is that he lost a testicle and went > through some pretty rough chemo. His parents also tried to sue me for > every thing I and my family had. The only bright spot there was that I > didn't have anything for a lawyer to win. So they couldn't find a > lawyer to prosecute the case. This was before we had mandatory > malpractice insurance here in CO. > > What I learned from this: If we are going to practice medicine, we > have to behave like doctors, and that always means palpating any areas > in which the patient says she or he has symptoms. If the knee hurts, > we have to visually inspect and palpate the knee. If there is a breast > lump, we have to palpate the breast. If that means having a chaperone > in the office, so be it. In the Netherlands, they have a saying that > goes something like this: Soft doctors make bad sores. The meaning is > that a doctor has to do what a doctor has to do without being > squeamish, prudish, or embarassed by it. Otherwise, patients may > suffer even greater disease. In China, all my teachers in clinic > always palpated any area of concern. If we're not willing to visually > inspect and palpate a woman's breast who says she has a lump or lumps, > then we need to stop treating women with breast problems unless there > is a confirmed diagnosis by another licensed health care privider. > However, even then, I think we need to look and feel for ourselves in > order to really understand the patient's situation. What if the other > practitioner was wrong or the patient's situation had changed since then? > > I have felt several women's breast cancer tumors who lived in denial. > They had large, plaque-like tumors like a piece of a turtle shell, > just like what Zhu Dan-xi describes. They had all refused to go to > Western doctors for fear of the true diagnosis (and prognosis). > Instead, they had gone to macrobiotics, homeopaths, acupuncturists, > etc., none of whom had palpated their breasts. All these women are now > dead. By the time they were diagnosed, their tumors were very advanced > with lots of metastases. According to Zhu, by the time I palpated > their tumors, their cases was already hopeless. All were relatively > young, married, and had children. Such tragedies. > > If this really is the state of our profession (and I think Thomas is > right that it is), we need to change this. If we don't awarding > ourselves doctorates won't make us doctors. > > My two cents. > > Bob > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 I agree. On Mar 19, 2007, at 2:05 PM, Alon Marcus wrote: > For premenopausal women always conceder thermography as it gives > more info the mammography > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 Bob and all, Thank you for those stories Bob, very enlightening! I hope this motivates some activist types out there to help change the state of our profession, though I doubt it. (Sorry to be so pessimistic.) This issue is why I will ask about the lump (shape, size, etc) AND always refer them to their gynecologist. I also always follow-up to make sure they went. If the lumps are new, I will likely be willing to let it slide for a month or two, but if there is no improvement or if they get worse, I get emphatic about the referral. I honestly don't know what the scope of our practice, from state to state, is regarding doing some of these types of exams. I know I could do it in CA, but I am not so sure about other states.........anybody want to clue us all in, or maybe I am the only one in the dark. In Good Health, Thomas Honolulu, HI www.sourcepointherbs.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 Stephen, I absolutely agree with. I wasn't suggesting otherwise. My point was directed at a different issue. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 Doug, I'm not saying not to refer for a really proper medical diagnosis. I'm saying that, if we choose to treat someone with breast lumps, then we need to palpate those lumps ourselves so that we personally know what we're dealing with and can personally monitor changes. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 Bob, I completely agree. Beyond just breast lumps, any lump on the body should be palpated so that we know what we are dealing with. Ie. even with acne, without palpation we cannot know how deep the lesion is and therefore cannot know what direction to take our herbal treatment. The deeper and bigger the lump the stronger the herbs I would choose from, say, the clear fire toxin category. If the lump is just on the surface then I might only use the lighter herbs like Jin Yin Hua and Lian Qiao, ect. If the lump is very hard and compacted then I might use more phlegm resolving herbs. .. Without palpation we don't really know what we are dealing with. Trevor , " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001 wrote: > > Doug, > > I'm not saying not to refer for a really proper medical diagnosis. I'm > saying that, if we choose to treat someone with breast lumps, then we > need to palpate those lumps ourselves so that we personally know what > we're dealing with and can personally monitor changes. > > Bob > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 Hi Trevor, All, , " Trevor Erikson " > The deeper and bigger the lump the stronger the herbs I would choose >from, Sorry. I think the bigger and deeper the lump, the quicker one should refer to the MD. Most practitioners of TCM in the US are not equipped with sufficient training, finances, and malpractice coverage to get involved with such cases. How are such cases treated in Chinese hospitals today? Who is actually doing the Dx? How much training has been offered in tcm schools on palpation techniques? In my school days, there was hardly any instruction on abdominal palpation. Breast palpation? Forget it, and, the only testicles you examined, were your own. So granted, we've been out of school for a while and we now have some experience. But, do we? How many CEUs or workshops have been offered on palpating skills? And in clinic, when was last time we saw a mentor or supervisor palpating the abdomen and genuinely explained his findings? As a profession in the West, I think we really lack such skills. I know I do, even after studying Ampuku, abdominal palpation and massage during my Shiatsu studies. Since Bob was so open about his experience with the young man with testicular cancer, and I do appreciate his frankness, let me share an experience with palpation during my early days in practice. I'll try to keep it short. Lady comes with right shoulder pain and poor range of motion.. I palpate the shoulder, the axilla, and anterior aspect of the deltoid. I find a lot of tender tissue.. After acupuncture, I massage the area for a while.. Patient feels better, shoulder ROM slightly improved. Goes home.. That night she goes to the ER with a very high fever and convulsions... They had no idea why... I blew it.. What I thought to be muscle tissue, were swollen lymph nodes.. My massage, drained toxic fluid into her blood stream too quickly.. Even if we know what we are doing, to treat any lump on the organs, without first having the patient consult with an MD and have a definite diagnosis prior to our treatment, is malpractice in my opinion. I think we need to accept the limitations of our profession here in the West. Weather we like it or not, our license to practice TCM, is not that much higher than that of massage therapy in the medical profession's food chain. It is not a matter of what we know, or can treat. It's matter of professional status. Fernando Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 Just remember, to do a proper breast exam it takes training and experience. Its not just palpating for lumps. Unless one has training in this field all pt must be referred for dx. I see no problem palpating thereafter for TCM diagnosis purposes. One still needs to know how the mass feels to properly prescribe herbs and to follow progress. - fbernall Tuesday, March 20, 2007 3:52 PM Re:herbs for nodules, breast lumps Hi Trevor, All, , " Trevor Erikson " > The deeper and bigger the lump the stronger the herbs I would choose >from, Sorry. I think the bigger and deeper the lump, the quicker one should refer to the MD. Most practitioners of TCM in the US are not equipped with sufficient training, finances, and malpractice coverage to get involved with such cases. How are such cases treated in Chinese hospitals today? Who is actually doing the Dx? How much training has been offered in tcm schools on palpation techniques? In my school days, there was hardly any instruction on abdominal palpation. Breast palpation? Forget it, and, the only testicles you examined, were your own. So granted, we've been out of school for a while and we now have some experience. But, do we? How many CEUs or workshops have been offered on palpating skills? And in clinic, when was last time we saw a mentor or supervisor palpating the abdomen and genuinely explained his findings? As a profession in the West, I think we really lack such skills. I know I do, even after studying Ampuku, abdominal palpation and massage during my Shiatsu studies. Since Bob was so open about his experience with the young man with testicular cancer, and I do appreciate his frankness, let me share an experience with palpation during my early days in practice. I'll try to keep it short. Lady comes with right shoulder pain and poor range of motion.. I palpate the shoulder, the axilla, and anterior aspect of the deltoid. I find a lot of tender tissue.. After acupuncture, I massage the area for a while.. Patient feels better, shoulder ROM slightly improved. Goes home.. That night she goes to the ER with a very high fever and convulsions... They had no idea why... I blew it.. What I thought to be muscle tissue, were swollen lymph nodes.. My massage, drained toxic fluid into her blood stream too quickly.. Even if we know what we are doing, to treat any lump on the organs, without first having the patient consult with an MD and have a definite diagnosis prior to our treatment, is malpractice in my opinion. I think we need to accept the limitations of our profession here in the West. Weather we like it or not, our license to practice TCM, is not that much higher than that of massage therapy in the medical profession's food chain. It is not a matter of what we know, or can treat. It's matter of professional status. Fernando Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 Fernando, Of course proper referral to an MD when warrented is the appropriate thing to do. And if one doesn't feel skillful in palpating breast lumps, or any kind of lump, then don't try and treat it. That is my point. All I am saying is unless one can truely identify the type of lesion they are dealing with, they will not know how to treat it properly, and they should pass that patient on to someone else. I myself don't palpate breats lumps and I don't try and treat them. But I will treat other, non-malignant types of lumps. My post was in refference to this. To me a boil or acne lesion/ lump needs to be palpated for its size and depth, without doing so one misses an important step in the diagnosis and thus treatment approach to that lession/ lump. which ultimately leads to the degree of treatment success. I am sure that someone skilled in the treatment of breast lumps would have to palpate them to gain information for their treatment and diagnosis, this goes for competant TCM practitioners and competant MD's. Again if one doesn't know what they are doing then don't mess around, reffer the patient out. This doesn't take away from the importance of palpating a lump, any lump, any where on the body. The issue is whether the practitioner is competant or not to palpate that lump and then offer treatment. Which is really a question of honesty and integrity. Trevor , " fbernall " <fbernall wrote: > > Hi Trevor, All, > > , " Trevor Erikson " > > The deeper and bigger the lump the stronger the herbs I would choose > >from, > > Sorry. I think the bigger and deeper the lump, the quicker one should > refer to the MD. Most practitioners of TCM in the US are not equipped > with sufficient training, finances, and malpractice coverage to get > involved with such cases. > > How are such cases treated in Chinese hospitals today? Who is actually > doing the Dx? > > How much training has been offered in tcm schools on palpation > techniques? In my school days, there was hardly any instruction on > abdominal palpation. Breast palpation? Forget it, and, the only > testicles you examined, were your own. > > So granted, we've been out of school for a while and we now have some > experience. But, do we? How many CEUs or workshops have been offered > on palpating skills? And in clinic, when was last time we saw a mentor > or supervisor palpating the abdomen and genuinely explained his findings? > > As a profession in the West, I think we really lack such skills. I > know I do, even after studying Ampuku, abdominal palpation and massage > during my Shiatsu studies. > > Since Bob was so open about his experience with the young man with > testicular cancer, and I do appreciate his frankness, let me share an > experience with palpation during my early days in practice. I'll try > to keep it short. > > Lady comes with right shoulder pain and poor range of motion.. > > I palpate the shoulder, the axilla, and anterior aspect of the > deltoid. I find a lot of tender tissue.. After acupuncture, I massage > the area for a while.. > > Patient feels better, shoulder ROM slightly improved. Goes home.. That > night she goes to the ER with a very high fever and convulsions... > > They had no idea why... > > I blew it.. What I thought to be muscle tissue, were swollen lymph > nodes.. My massage, drained toxic fluid into her blood stream too > quickly.. > > Even if we know what we are doing, to treat any lump on the organs, > without first having the patient consult with an MD and have a > definite diagnosis prior to our treatment, is malpractice in my opinion. > > I think we need to accept the limitations of our profession here in > the West. Weather we like it or not, our license to practice TCM, is > not that much higher than that of massage therapy in the medical > profession's food chain. It is not a matter of what we know, or can > treat. It's matter of professional status. > > Fernando > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.