Guest guest Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 I absolutely agree, Alon. Though I am not trained in it nor have I ever used thermography, my understanding is that it can and should be a valuable diagnostic tool in our arsenel. Not only is it non-invasive and radiation free, it also is able to clearly show before and after results in acupuncture treatments, as well as be a wonderful tool to locate potential cancerous lesions, as well as other manifestations of stasis. If anyone in So Cal is able to recommend a source to purchase and train to use a good quality thermographic device, please let me know. Sincerely, Yehuda Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: For premenopausal women always conceder thermography as it gives more info the mammography - Monday, March 19, 2007 1:30 PM Re:herbs for nodules, breast lumps I disagree with your conclusions here, Bob. If I were to palpate and not find a mass then I would be negligent. However, if I refer out, put that in my chart, I save myself some grief and most importantly see that the patient gets a true diagnosis. If the patient themselve can feel the mass and direct it to me, then I will palpate, but out of interest and not diagnosis. A true diagnosis comes with a biopsy and mammogram, CAT etc.. The self- exam is the first step. In California, we are not allowed to diagnose. Some would like to change that but I with this restriction we are also then not responsible for the diagnosis. I believe this is the safest for the patient. If I wanted the responsibility then I would go through an MD program and the respective specialities. If there is/was and issue with your case is that the referring out wasn't done or done strongly enough. Saying that nothing is felt is not indication of cancer free and might as easily be litigated with that diagnosis. Acupuncturists in China may palpate but one at a Masters level will also have an MD credential. To do a complete Western breast exam can take half an hour at least. I'm not againest the exams but if an acupuncturist wants to start doing them they had better get very good training and then be responsible for it. The most helpful thing I think is to encourage self- exam, for both women and men and testicular self exam for men as well as annual exams and prompt follow-up by professionals who see this every day. I've also seen women with incredibly advanced breast cancer to the point of open weeping sores, but they know darn well what they have, their denial is that Western Medicine could have helped them. doug , " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001 wrote: > > All, > > " As I am not in the habit of doing breast examinations, I couldn't say > with absolute certainty the size of the lumps treated. I have always > taken for granted the patient telling me that they had lumps. Right or > wrong, this is the state of our profession. " > > I agree, this is the state of our profession. But it definitely is wrong. > > Twenty or so years ago, I had a student. He came to see me one day > because he said one of his testicles hurt. I did a CM pattern > discrimination and diagnosed cold in the lver channel. I gave him an > herbal Rx and the pain was better as long as he took the herbs. I did > not palpate his testicles due to embarassment. By the time he was > diagnosed with testicular cancer, it had metastasized to his abdomen. > The good news is that he is alive and well today. He's even an > acupuncturist. The bad news is that he lost a testicle and went > through some pretty rough chemo. His parents also tried to sue me for > every thing I and my family had. The only bright spot there was that I > didn't have anything for a lawyer to win. So they couldn't find a > lawyer to prosecute the case. This was before we had mandatory > malpractice insurance here in CO. > > What I learned from this: If we are going to practice medicine, we > have to behave like doctors, and that always means palpating any areas > in which the patient says she or he has symptoms. If the knee hurts, > we have to visually inspect and palpate the knee. If there is a breast > lump, we have to palpate the breast. If that means having a chaperone > in the office, so be it. In the Netherlands, they have a saying that > goes something like this: Soft doctors make bad sores. The meaning is > that a doctor has to do what a doctor has to do without being > squeamish, prudish, or embarassed by it. Otherwise, patients may > suffer even greater disease. In China, all my teachers in clinic > always palpated any area of concern. If we're not willing to visually > inspect and palpate a woman's breast who says she has a lump or lumps, > then we need to stop treating women with breast problems unless there > is a confirmed diagnosis by another licensed health care privider. > However, even then, I think we need to look and feel for ourselves in > order to really understand the patient's situation. What if the other > practitioner was wrong or the patient's situation had changed since then? > > I have felt several women's breast cancer tumors who lived in denial. > They had large, plaque-like tumors like a piece of a turtle shell, > just like what Zhu Dan-xi describes. They had all refused to go to > Western doctors for fear of the true diagnosis (and prognosis). > Instead, they had gone to macrobiotics, homeopaths, acupuncturists, > etc., none of whom had palpated their breasts. All these women are now > dead. By the time they were diagnosed, their tumors were very advanced > with lots of metastases. According to Zhu, by the time I palpated > their tumors, their cases was already hopeless. All were relatively > young, married, and had children. Such tragedies. > > If this really is the state of our profession (and I think Thomas is > right that it is), we need to change this. If we don't awarding > ourselves doctorates won't make us doctors. > > My two cents. > > Bob > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Yehuda Its not cheap and you will need a air conditioned room. - yehuda frischman Monday, March 19, 2007 2:41 PM thermography I absolutely agree, Alon. Though I am not trained in it nor have I ever used thermography, my understanding is that it can and should be a valuable diagnostic tool in our arsenel. Not only is it non-invasive and radiation free, it also is able to clearly show before and after results in acupuncture treatments, as well as be a wonderful tool to locate potential cancerous lesions, as well as other manifestations of stasis. If anyone in So Cal is able to recommend a source to purchase and train to use a good quality thermographic device, please let me know. Sincerely, Yehuda Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: For premenopausal women always conceder thermography as it gives more info the mammography - Monday, March 19, 2007 1:30 PM Re:herbs for nodules, breast lumps I disagree with your conclusions here, Bob. If I were to palpate and not find a mass then I would be negligent. However, if I refer out, put that in my chart, I save myself some grief and most importantly see that the patient gets a true diagnosis. If the patient themselve can feel the mass and direct it to me, then I will palpate, but out of interest and not diagnosis. A true diagnosis comes with a biopsy and mammogram, CAT etc.. The self- exam is the first step. In California, we are not allowed to diagnose. Some would like to change that but I with this restriction we are also then not responsible for the diagnosis. I believe this is the safest for the patient. If I wanted the responsibility then I would go through an MD program and the respective specialities. If there is/was and issue with your case is that the referring out wasn't done or done strongly enough. Saying that nothing is felt is not indication of cancer free and might as easily be litigated with that diagnosis. Acupuncturists in China may palpate but one at a Masters level will also have an MD credential. To do a complete Western breast exam can take half an hour at least. I'm not againest the exams but if an acupuncturist wants to start doing them they had better get very good training and then be responsible for it. The most helpful thing I think is to encourage self- exam, for both women and men and testicular self exam for men as well as annual exams and prompt follow-up by professionals who see this every day. I've also seen women with incredibly advanced breast cancer to the point of open weeping sores, but they know darn well what they have, their denial is that Western Medicine could have helped them. doug , " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001 wrote: > > All, > > " As I am not in the habit of doing breast examinations, I couldn't say > with absolute certainty the size of the lumps treated. I have always > taken for granted the patient telling me that they had lumps. Right or > wrong, this is the state of our profession. " > > I agree, this is the state of our profession. But it definitely is wrong. > > Twenty or so years ago, I had a student. He came to see me one day > because he said one of his testicles hurt. I did a CM pattern > discrimination and diagnosed cold in the lver channel. I gave him an > herbal Rx and the pain was better as long as he took the herbs. I did > not palpate his testicles due to embarassment. By the time he was > diagnosed with testicular cancer, it had metastasized to his abdomen. > The good news is that he is alive and well today. He's even an > acupuncturist. The bad news is that he lost a testicle and went > through some pretty rough chemo. His parents also tried to sue me for > every thing I and my family had. The only bright spot there was that I > didn't have anything for a lawyer to win. So they couldn't find a > lawyer to prosecute the case. This was before we had mandatory > malpractice insurance here in CO. > > What I learned from this: If we are going to practice medicine, we > have to behave like doctors, and that always means palpating any areas > in which the patient says she or he has symptoms. If the knee hurts, > we have to visually inspect and palpate the knee. If there is a breast > lump, we have to palpate the breast. If that means having a chaperone > in the office, so be it. In the Netherlands, they have a saying that > goes something like this: Soft doctors make bad sores. The meaning is > that a doctor has to do what a doctor has to do without being > squeamish, prudish, or embarassed by it. Otherwise, patients may > suffer even greater disease. In China, all my teachers in clinic > always palpated any area of concern. If we're not willing to visually > inspect and palpate a woman's breast who says she has a lump or lumps, > then we need to stop treating women with breast problems unless there > is a confirmed diagnosis by another licensed health care privider. > However, even then, I think we need to look and feel for ourselves in > order to really understand the patient's situation. What if the other > practitioner was wrong or the patient's situation had changed since then? > > I have felt several women's breast cancer tumors who lived in denial. > They had large, plaque-like tumors like a piece of a turtle shell, > just like what Zhu Dan-xi describes. They had all refused to go to > Western doctors for fear of the true diagnosis (and prognosis). > Instead, they had gone to macrobiotics, homeopaths, acupuncturists, > etc., none of whom had palpated their breasts. All these women are now > dead. By the time they were diagnosed, their tumors were very advanced > with lots of metastases. According to Zhu, by the time I palpated > their tumors, their cases was already hopeless. All were relatively > young, married, and had children. Such tragedies. > > If this really is the state of our profession (and I think Thomas is > right that it is), we need to change this. If we don't awarding > ourselves doctorates won't make us doctors. > > My two cents. > > Bob > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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