Guest guest Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 Hi, I'm thinking about incorporating herb granules into my practice. Are there any companies that don't use anything but the herb as a carrier for the granules? From calling around I've found that many use corn or potato starch as the carrier, which isn't that big of a deal to me but I've also heard conflicting information between websites, customer service reps, and production reps at companies. Any help would be much appreciated. Danny Johnson L.Ac. On Mar 23, 2006, at 4:41 PM, wrote: > Jason > I use slightly smaller doses unless i am really trying to pull > down. That is because there is a lot of starch in the KPC > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 Danny, Check out E-Fong granules from Guangdong Yifang Pharmaceuticals. They don't use any starch or binding agents. J. van Es , Danny Johnson <danny wrote: > > Hi, > I'm thinking about incorporating herb granules into my practice. Are > there any companies that don't use anything but the herb as a carrier > for the granules? > From calling around I've found that many use corn or potato starch > as the carrier, which isn't that big of a deal to me but I've also > heard conflicting information between websites, customer service > reps, and production reps at companies. > > Any help would be much appreciated. > Danny Johnson L.Ac. > > > > On Mar 23, 2006, at 4:41 PM, wrote: > > > Jason > > I use slightly smaller doses unless i am really trying to pull > > down. That is because there is a lot of starch in the KPC > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 there has to be some kind of carrier for any powder extract, unless it is liquid - J. van Es Wednesday, March 21, 2007 11:55 AM Re: Granules w/o starch Danny, Check out E-Fong granules from Guangdong Yifang Pharmaceuticals. They don't use any starch or binding agents. J. van Es , Danny Johnson <danny wrote: > > Hi, > I'm thinking about incorporating herb granules into my practice. Are > there any companies that don't use anything but the herb as a carrier > for the granules? > From calling around I've found that many use corn or potato starch > as the carrier, which isn't that big of a deal to me but I've also > heard conflicting information between websites, customer service > reps, and production reps at companies. > > Any help would be much appreciated. > Danny Johnson L.Ac. > > > > On Mar 23, 2006, at 4:41 PM, wrote: > > > Jason > > I use slightly smaller doses unless i am really trying to pull > > down. That is because there is a lot of starch in the KPC > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 Hi Alon, There has to be a carrier, but why can't the marc be the carrier? Kip _____ On Behalf Of Alon Marcus Wednesday, March 21, 2007 12:59 PM Re: Re: Granules w/o starch there has to be some kind of carrier for any powder extract, unless it is liquid - J. van Es @ <%40> Wednesday, March 21, 2007 11:55 AM Re: Granules w/o starch Danny, Check out E-Fong granules from Guangdong Yifang Pharmaceuticals. They don't use any starch or binding agents. J. van Es @ <%40> , Danny Johnson <danny wrote: > > Hi, > I'm thinking about incorporating herb granules into my practice. Are > there any companies that don't use anything but the herb as a carrier > for the granules? > From calling around I've found that many use corn or potato starch > as the carrier, which isn't that big of a deal to me but I've also > heard conflicting information between websites, customer service > reps, and production reps at companies. > > Any help would be much appreciated. > Danny Johnson L.Ac. > > > > On Mar 23, 2006, at 4:41 PM, wrote: > > > Jason > > I use slightly smaller doses unless i am really trying to pull > > down. That is because there is a lot of starch in the KPC > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 are they freeze drying the liquid - J. van Es Wednesday, March 21, 2007 11:55 AM Re: Granules w/o starch Danny, Check out E-Fong granules from Guangdong Yifang Pharmaceuticals. They don't use any starch or binding agents. J. van Es , Danny Johnson <danny wrote: > > Hi, > I'm thinking about incorporating herb granules into my practice. Are > there any companies that don't use anything but the herb as a carrier > for the granules? > From calling around I've found that many use corn or potato starch > as the carrier, which isn't that big of a deal to me but I've also > heard conflicting information between websites, customer service > reps, and production reps at companies. > > Any help would be much appreciated. > Danny Johnson L.Ac. > > > > On Mar 23, 2006, at 4:41 PM, wrote: > > > Jason > > I use slightly smaller doses unless i am really trying to pull > > down. That is because there is a lot of starch in the KPC > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 J. Van Es are they available in US? - J. van Es Wednesday, March 21, 2007 11:55 AM Re: Granules w/o starch Danny, Check out E-Fong granules from Guangdong Yifang Pharmaceuticals. They don't use any starch or binding agents. J. van Es , Danny Johnson <danny wrote: > > Hi, > I'm thinking about incorporating herb granules into my practice. Are > there any companies that don't use anything but the herb as a carrier > for the granules? > From calling around I've found that many use corn or potato starch > as the carrier, which isn't that big of a deal to me but I've also > heard conflicting information between websites, customer service > reps, and production reps at companies. > > Any help would be much appreciated. > Danny Johnson L.Ac. > > > > On Mar 23, 2006, at 4:41 PM, wrote: > > > Jason > > I use slightly smaller doses unless i am really trying to pull > > down. That is because there is a lot of starch in the KPC > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 what do you mean by marc - kip Wednesday, March 21, 2007 1:05 PM RE: Re: Granules w/o starch Hi Alon, There has to be a carrier, but why can't the marc be the carrier? Kip _____ On Behalf Of Alon Marcus Wednesday, March 21, 2007 12:59 PM Re: Re: Granules w/o starch there has to be some kind of carrier for any powder extract, unless it is liquid - J. van Es @ <%40> Wednesday, March 21, 2007 11:55 AM Re: Granules w/o starch Danny, Check out E-Fong granules from Guangdong Yifang Pharmaceuticals. They don't use any starch or binding agents. J. van Es @ <%40> , Danny Johnson <danny wrote: > > Hi, > I'm thinking about incorporating herb granules into my practice. Are > there any companies that don't use anything but the herb as a carrier > for the granules? > From calling around I've found that many use corn or potato starch > as the carrier, which isn't that big of a deal to me but I've also > heard conflicting information between websites, customer service > reps, and production reps at companies. > > Any help would be much appreciated. > Danny Johnson L.Ac. > > > > On Mar 23, 2006, at 4:41 PM, wrote: > > > Jason > > I use slightly smaller doses unless i am really trying to pull > > down. That is because there is a lot of starch in the KPC > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 I can absolutely assure you that there does not have to be a carrier. Without disclosing proprietary information, I can tell you that Blue Poppy Herbs powdered extracts do not use a carrier. That's old technology. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 But the benefit of the carrier is to maintain equal potency between batches, right? I am under the impression that the Taiwanese companies use starches and sometimes ground-up herbs to maintain equal potencies to achieve their GMP standards while mainland Chinese companies do not need to add carriers as they are not subject to the same GMP standards as those from Taiwan. Anybody know for sure? On 3/21/07, Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001 wrote: > > I can absolutely assure you that there does not have to be a carrier. > Without disclosing proprietary information, I can tell you that Blue > Poppy Herbs powdered extracts do not use a carrier. That's old technology. > > Bob > -- Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 The standards in Taiwan are dictated by Japan because they are the biggest consumer. They require starch to be used as a carrier - Al Stone Wednesday, March 21, 2007 2:12 PM Re: Re: Granules w/o starch But the benefit of the carrier is to maintain equal potency between batches, right? I am under the impression that the Taiwanese companies use starches and sometimes ground-up herbs to maintain equal potencies to achieve their GMP standards while mainland Chinese companies do not need to add carriers as they are not subject to the same GMP standards as those from Taiwan. Anybody know for sure? On 3/21/07, Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001 wrote: > > I can absolutely assure you that there does not have to be a carrier. > Without disclosing proprietary information, I can tell you that Blue > Poppy Herbs powdered extracts do not use a carrier. That's old technology. > > Bob > -- Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 unless they are freeze dried there has to be something, unless there is a new tech info on which should be available. I will look into it. The other reason to use a carrier is that without it the powder can be too hydrophilic - Bob Flaws Wednesday, March 21, 2007 1:59 PM Re: Granules w/o starch I can absolutely assure you that there does not have to be a carrier. Without disclosing proprietary information, I can tell you that Blue Poppy Herbs powdered extracts do not use a carrier. That's old technology. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 The marc is the leftover plant material after extraction. It is my understanding that many companies spray the concentrated extract of the medicinal back onto the marc instead of using starch. Kip _____ On Behalf Of Alon Marcus what do you mean by marc kip (AT) rosemanclinic (DOT) <kip%40rosemanclinic.com> com Re: Granules w/o starch Hi Alon, There has to be a carrier, but why can't the marc be the carrier? Kip _____ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 Alon, Yes, they are available in the U.S. through Health Source. I recommend going to the website www.e-fong.com. They also have a detailed flow chart of their manufacturing process on the website. Best, J. van Es , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus wrote: > > J. Van Es > are they available in US? > > > > > > - > J. van Es > > > Danny, > > Check out E-Fong granules from Guangdong Yifang Pharmaceuticals. > They don't use any starch or binding agents. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 not in Taiwan because of japan - kip Wednesday, March 21, 2007 3:04 PM RE: Re: Granules w/o starch The marc is the leftover plant material after extraction. It is my understanding that many companies spray the concentrated extract of the medicinal back onto the marc instead of using starch. Kip _____ On Behalf Of Alon Marcus what do you mean by marc kip (AT) rosemanclinic (DOT) <kip%40rosemanclinic.com> com Re: Granules w/o starch Hi Alon, There has to be a carrier, but why can't the marc be the carrier? Kip _____ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 Interesting, at the site they only talk about adding starch at the crushing stage. Usually the substrate is added at the spray drying stage. - J. van Es Wednesday, March 21, 2007 3:39 PM Re: Granules w/o starch Alon, Yes, they are available in the U.S. through Health Source. I recommend going to the website www.e-fong.com. They also have a detailed flow chart of their manufacturing process on the website. Best, J. van Es , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus wrote: > > J. Van Es > are they available in US? > > > > > > - > J. van Es > > > Danny, > > Check out E-Fong granules from Guangdong Yifang Pharmaceuticals. > They don't use any starch or binding agents. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 J Van ES what is health source. do you have a webpage - J. van Es Wednesday, March 21, 2007 3:39 PM Re: Granules w/o starch Alon, Yes, they are available in the U.S. through Health Source. I recommend going to the website www.e-fong.com. They also have a detailed flow chart of their manufacturing process on the website. Best, J. van Es , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus wrote: > > J. Van Es > are they available in US? > > > > > > - > J. van Es > > > Danny, > > Check out E-Fong granules from Guangdong Yifang Pharmaceuticals. > They don't use any starch or binding agents. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 What I've been told is that to get a GMP standard - that the marc herbs cannot be put back into the extract as a binder. This is because the marc will contain too many heavy metals and other adulterants. Also that the medical standard is to use potato starch. Doug > Interesting, at the site they only talk about adding starch at the crushing stage. Usually the substrate is added at the spray drying stage. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 That is interesting, because I would've thought that the remaining cellulose wouldn't have has much content of anything compared to the extract itself. Kip _____ On Behalf Of Wednesday, March 21, 2007 6:36 PM Re: Granules w/o starch What I've been told is that to get a GMP standard - that the marc herbs cannot be put back into the extract as a binder. This is because the marc will contain too many heavy metals and other adulterants. Also that the medical standard is to use potato starch. Doug > Interesting, at the site they only talk about adding starch at the crushing stage. Usually the substrate is added at the spray drying stage. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 Quali uses pharmaceutical grade corn starch - Wednesday, March 21, 2007 6:36 PM Re: Granules w/o starch What I've been told is that to get a GMP standard - that the marc herbs cannot be put back into the extract as a binder. This is because the marc will contain too many heavy metals and other adulterants. Also that the medical standard is to use potato starch. Doug > Interesting, at the site they only talk about adding starch at the crushing stage. Usually the substrate is added at the spray drying stage. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 I gave my sister Quali herbs once and she got a very bad food senstivity reaction the same way she does with processed soy. She says she doesn't get the same reaction from corn so I'm not sure what is going on. Doug , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus wrote: > > Quali uses pharmaceutical grade corn starch > > > > > > > > > - > > > Wednesday, March 21, 2007 6:36 PM > Re: Granules w/o starch > > > What I've been told is that to get a GMP standard - that the marc herbs cannot be put back > into the extract as a binder. This is because the marc will contain too many heavy metals and > other adulterants. > Also that the medical standard is to use potato starch. > > Doug > > > Interesting, at the site they only talk about adding starch at the crushing stage. Usually the > substrate is added at the spray drying stage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2007 Report Share Posted March 22, 2007 KPC uses both potato starch and marc to make their granules: " In a completely enclosed chamber, protected against cross-contamination, the concentrated herb extracts undergo a non-continuous granulation process known as flow coating. The concentrate is sprayed either on potato starch particles or particles of the same herb(s) and is subsequently vacuum-dried at low temperature. " plus some pictures @ http://www.sinecura.be/ Tom. , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus wrote: > > not in Taiwan because of japan > > > > > > > > > - > kip > > Wednesday, March 21, 2007 3:04 PM > RE: Re: Granules w/o starch > > > The marc is the leftover plant material after extraction. It is my > understanding that many companies spray the concentrated extract of the > medicinal back onto the marc instead of using starch. > > Kip > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2007 Report Share Posted March 22, 2007 Doug Perhaps there was some soy in the system when they produced that batch, or it may have been unrelated to the herbs. Since they use the same equipment to process all the formulas minute amount of herbs are likely to be found in different batches. They always do the required GMP cleaning between batches but still that cant be 100%. I visited their factory (they also now have a new state of the art factory) and they do a very good job at all stages of the process. They use high quality raw materials which i think is the most important part of the process as can easily be demonstrated when you taste their final products. - Wednesday, March 21, 2007 9:38 PM Re: Granules w/o starch I gave my sister Quali herbs once and she got a very bad food senstivity reaction the same way she does with processed soy. She says she doesn't get the same reaction from corn so I'm not sure what is going on. Doug , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus wrote: > > Quali uses pharmaceutical grade corn starch > > > > > > > > > - > > > Wednesday, March 21, 2007 6:36 PM > Re: Granules w/o starch > > > What I've been told is that to get a GMP standard - that the marc herbs cannot be put back > into the extract as a binder. This is because the marc will contain too many heavy metals and > other adulterants. > Also that the medical standard is to use potato starch. > > Doug > > > Interesting, at the site they only talk about adding starch at the crushing stage. Usually the > substrate is added at the spray drying stage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2007 Report Share Posted March 22, 2007 Tom Do you know if KPC is able to sell in Japan the formulas that contain marc? When i visited Sheng Chang (Quali) they told me you cant do that if you are to sell in Japan - Tom Verhaeghe Thursday, March 22, 2007 3:27 AM Re: Granules w/o starch KPC uses both potato starch and marc to make their granules: " In a completely enclosed chamber, protected against cross-contamination, the concentrated herb extracts undergo a non-continuous granulation process known as flow coating. The concentrate is sprayed either on potato starch particles or particles of the same herb(s) and is subsequently vacuum-dried at low temperature. " plus some pictures @ http://www.sinecura.be/ Tom. , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus wrote: > > not in Taiwan because of japan > > > > > > > > > - > kip > > Wednesday, March 21, 2007 3:04 PM > RE: Re: Granules w/o starch > > > The marc is the leftover plant material after extraction. It is my > understanding that many companies spray the concentrated extract of the > medicinal back onto the marc instead of using starch. > > Kip > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2007 Report Share Posted March 22, 2007 Alon, Where do you source your Sheng Chang/ Quali granules? I couldn't find a website. Thanks, Jan , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus wrote: > > Tom > Do you know if KPC is able to sell in Japan the formulas that contain marc? When i visited Sheng Chang (Quali) they told me you cant do that if you are to sell in Japan > > > > > > > > > - > Tom Verhaeghe > > Thursday, March 22, 2007 3:27 AM > Re: Granules w/o starch > > > KPC uses both potato starch and marc to make their granules: > > " In a completely enclosed chamber, protected against > cross-contamination, the concentrated herb extracts undergo a > non-continuous granulation process known as flow coating. The > concentrate is sprayed either on potato starch particles or particles > of the same herb(s) and is subsequently vacuum-dried at low temperature. " > > plus some pictures @ http://www.sinecura.be/ > > Tom. > > , " Alon Marcus " > <alonmarcus@> wrote: > > > > not in Taiwan because of japan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > kip@ > > > > Wednesday, March 21, 2007 3:04 PM > > RE: Re: Granules w/o starch > > > > > > The marc is the leftover plant material after extraction. It is my > > understanding that many companies spray the concentrated extract > of the > > medicinal back onto the marc instead of using starch. > > > > Kip > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2007 Report Share Posted March 22, 2007 Alon, I agree. I went to KPC and SunTen factories tours in Taiwan at last 2 years. They did a very good job of all stages of the process. I knew SunTen is the first Taiwanese company to sale Granules to Japan. Ta-Ya Lee, MSN, CRNP, MAc, LAc, MBA Johns Hopkins Community Physicians Wyman Park Internal Medicine Phone 410-338-3421 Fax 410-338-3413 WARNING: E-mail sent over the Internet is not secure. Information sent by e-mail may not remain confidential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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