Guest guest Posted March 22, 2007 Report Share Posted March 22, 2007 I am not sure Quali has a website. I have a phone number at the office and can give it to you if you want - J. van Es Thursday, March 22, 2007 10:32 AM Re: Granules w/o starch Alon, Where do you source your Sheng Chang/ Quali granules? I couldn't find a website. Thanks, Jan , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus wrote: > > Tom > Do you know if KPC is able to sell in Japan the formulas that contain marc? When i visited Sheng Chang (Quali) they told me you cant do that if you are to sell in Japan > > > > > > > > > - > Tom Verhaeghe > > Thursday, March 22, 2007 3:27 AM > Re: Granules w/o starch > > > KPC uses both potato starch and marc to make their granules: > > " In a completely enclosed chamber, protected against > cross-contamination, the concentrated herb extracts undergo a > non-continuous granulation process known as flow coating. The > concentrate is sprayed either on potato starch particles or particles > of the same herb(s) and is subsequently vacuum-dried at low temperature. " > > plus some pictures @ http://www.sinecura.be/ > > Tom. > > , " Alon Marcus " > <alonmarcus@> wrote: > > > > not in Taiwan because of japan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > kip@ > > > > Wednesday, March 21, 2007 3:04 PM > > RE: Re: Granules w/o starch > > > > > > The marc is the leftover plant material after extraction. It is my > > understanding that many companies spray the concentrated extract > of the > > medicinal back onto the marc instead of using starch. > > > > Kip > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2007 Report Share Posted March 22, 2007 That would be great. , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus wrote: > > I am not sure Quali has a website. I have a phone number at the office and can give it to you if you want > > > > > > > > > - > J. van Es > > Thursday, March 22, 2007 10:32 AM > Re: Granules w/o starch > > > Alon, > > Where do you source your Sheng Chang/ Quali granules? I couldn't > find a website. > > Thanks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2007 Report Share Posted March 22, 2007 It's www.qualiherb.com. Mike L. Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: I am not sure Quali has a website. I have a phone number at the office and can give it to you if you want - J. van Es Thursday, March 22, 2007 10:32 AM Re: Granules w/o starch Alon, Where do you source your Sheng Chang/ Quali granules? I couldn't find a website. Thanks, Jan , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus wrote: > > Tom > Do you know if KPC is able to sell in Japan the formulas that contain marc? When i visited Sheng Chang (Quali) they told me you cant do that if you are to sell in Japan > > > > > > > > > - > Tom Verhaeghe > > Thursday, March 22, 2007 3:27 AM > Re: Granules w/o starch > > > KPC uses both potato starch and marc to make their granules: > > " In a completely enclosed chamber, protected against > cross-contamination, the concentrated herb extracts undergo a > non-continuous granulation process known as flow coating. The > concentrate is sprayed either on potato starch particles or particles > of the same herb(s) and is subsequently vacuum-dried at low temperature. " > > plus some pictures @ http://www.sinecura.be/ > > Tom. > > , " Alon Marcus " > <alonmarcus@> wrote: > > > > not in Taiwan because of japan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > kip@ > > > > Wednesday, March 21, 2007 3:04 PM > > RE: Re: Granules w/o starch > > > > > > The marc is the leftover plant material after extraction. It is my > > understanding that many companies spray the concentrated extract > of the > > medicinal back onto the marc instead of using starch. > > > > Kip > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2007 Report Share Posted March 22, 2007 I would highly recommend for those that use powders to get a sample of quali herbs and taste them. They have the strongest taste and smell of all the powders available in the US i found so far. - Mike Liaw Thursday, March 22, 2007 11:59 AM Re: Re: Granules w/o starch It's www.qualiherb.com. Mike L. Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: I am not sure Quali has a website. I have a phone number at the office and can give it to you if you want - J. van Es Thursday, March 22, 2007 10:32 AM Re: Granules w/o starch Alon, Where do you source your Sheng Chang/ Quali granules? I couldn't find a website. Thanks, Jan , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus wrote: > > Tom > Do you know if KPC is able to sell in Japan the formulas that contain marc? When i visited Sheng Chang (Quali) they told me you cant do that if you are to sell in Japan > > > > > > > > > - > Tom Verhaeghe > > Thursday, March 22, 2007 3:27 AM > Re: Granules w/o starch > > > KPC uses both potato starch and marc to make their granules: > > " In a completely enclosed chamber, protected against > cross-contamination, the concentrated herb extracts undergo a > non-continuous granulation process known as flow coating. The > concentrate is sprayed either on potato starch particles or particles > of the same herb(s) and is subsequently vacuum-dried at low temperature. " > > plus some pictures @ http://www.sinecura.be/ > > Tom. > > , " Alon Marcus " > <alonmarcus@> wrote: > > > > not in Taiwan because of japan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > kip@ > > > > Wednesday, March 21, 2007 3:04 PM > > RE: Re: Granules w/o starch > > > > > > The marc is the leftover plant material after extraction. It is my > > understanding that many companies spray the concentrated extract > of the > > medicinal back onto the marc instead of using starch. > > > > Kip > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2007 Report Share Posted March 22, 2007 J. Van Es Do you have contact info for Health Source? I would like to get some samples of E-Fong - J. van Es Wednesday, March 21, 2007 3:39 PM Re: Granules w/o starch Alon, Yes, they are available in the U.S. through Health Source. I recommend going to the website www.e-fong.com. They also have a detailed flow chart of their manufacturing process on the website. Best, J. van Es , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus wrote: > > J. Van Es > are they available in US? > > > > > > - > J. van Es > > > Danny, > > Check out E-Fong granules from Guangdong Yifang Pharmaceuticals. > They don't use any starch or binding agents. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2007 Report Share Posted March 22, 2007 Alon, I agree, in comparing Qualiherb with KPC, but I haven't had a chance of using SunTen, have you? Mike L. Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: I would highly recommend for those that use powders to get a sample of quali herbs and taste them. They have the strongest taste and smell of all the powders available in the US i found so far. - Mike Liaw Thursday, March 22, 2007 11:59 AM Re: Re: Granules w/o starch It's www.qualiherb.com. Mike L. Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: I am not sure Quali has a website. I have a phone number at the office and can give it to you if you want - J. van Es Thursday, March 22, 2007 10:32 AM Re: Granules w/o starch Alon, Where do you source your Sheng Chang/ Quali granules? I couldn't find a website. Thanks, Jan , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus wrote: > > Tom > Do you know if KPC is able to sell in Japan the formulas that contain marc? When i visited Sheng Chang (Quali) they told me you cant do that if you are to sell in Japan > > > > > > > > > - > Tom Verhaeghe > > Thursday, March 22, 2007 3:27 AM > Re: Granules w/o starch > > > KPC uses both potato starch and marc to make their granules: > > " In a completely enclosed chamber, protected against > cross-contamination, the concentrated herb extracts undergo a > non-continuous granulation process known as flow coating. The > concentrate is sprayed either on potato starch particles or particles > of the same herb(s) and is subsequently vacuum-dried at low temperature. " > > plus some pictures @ http://www.sinecura.be/ > > Tom. > > , " Alon Marcus " > <alonmarcus@> wrote: > > > > not in Taiwan because of japan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > kip@ > > > > Wednesday, March 21, 2007 3:04 PM > > RE: Re: Granules w/o starch > > > > > > The marc is the leftover plant material after extraction. It is my > > understanding that many companies spray the concentrated extract > of the > > medicinal back onto the marc instead of using starch. > > > > Kip > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2007 Report Share Posted March 22, 2007 Mike I have not seen SunTen products since 1983 so i cant remember them well except that they had these big granules and it was easy to just poor into the mouth and drink down - Mike Liaw Thursday, March 22, 2007 2:10 PM Re: Re: Granules w/o starch Alon, I agree, in comparing Qualiherb with KPC, but I haven't had a chance of using SunTen, have you? Mike L. Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: I would highly recommend for those that use powders to get a sample of quali herbs and taste them. They have the strongest taste and smell of all the powders available in the US i found so far. - Mike Liaw Thursday, March 22, 2007 11:59 AM Re: Re: Granules w/o starch It's www.qualiherb.com. Mike L. Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: I am not sure Quali has a website. I have a phone number at the office and can give it to you if you want - J. van Es Thursday, March 22, 2007 10:32 AM Re: Granules w/o starch Alon, Where do you source your Sheng Chang/ Quali granules? I couldn't find a website. Thanks, Jan , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus wrote: > > Tom > Do you know if KPC is able to sell in Japan the formulas that contain marc? When i visited Sheng Chang (Quali) they told me you cant do that if you are to sell in Japan > > > > > > > > > - > Tom Verhaeghe > > Thursday, March 22, 2007 3:27 AM > Re: Granules w/o starch > > > KPC uses both potato starch and marc to make their granules: > > " In a completely enclosed chamber, protected against > cross-contamination, the concentrated herb extracts undergo a > non-continuous granulation process known as flow coating. The > concentrate is sprayed either on potato starch particles or particles > of the same herb(s) and is subsequently vacuum-dried at low temperature. " > > plus some pictures @ http://www.sinecura.be/ > > Tom. > > , " Alon Marcus " > <alonmarcus@> wrote: > > > > not in Taiwan because of japan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > kip@ > > > > Wednesday, March 21, 2007 3:04 PM > > RE: Re: Granules w/o starch > > > > > > The marc is the leftover plant material after extraction. It is my > > understanding that many companies spray the concentrated extract > of the > > medicinal back onto the marc instead of using starch. > > > > Kip > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2007 Report Share Posted March 23, 2007 Alon, Here's the contact info for Health Source: Eva Zhang, Orders (866) 626-5666. Their in Elmont, Ca. So, for west coast orders shipping is reasonable. Best Regards, Jan , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus wrote: > > J. Van Es > Do you have contact info for Health Source? I would like to get some samples of E-Fong > > > > > > > > > - > J. van Es > > Wednesday, March 21, 2007 3:39 PM > Re: Granules w/o starch > > > Alon, > > Yes, they are available in the U.S. through Health Source. I > recommend going to the website www.e-fong.com. They also have a > detailed flow chart of their manufacturing process on the website. > > Best, > > J. van Es > > , " Alon Marcus " > <alonmarcus@> wrote: > > > > J. Van Es > > are they available in US? > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > J. van Es > > > > > > > Danny, > > > > Check out E-Fong granules from Guangdong Yifang Pharmaceuticals. > > They don't use any starch or binding agents. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2007 Report Share Posted March 23, 2007 Not to endorse or anything, but I have been using Quali granules for 2 years now and have been very impressed with their effectiveness and consistency. The powders are the same color when I re-order them, something I have had issue with in the past with other brands. , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus wrote: > > I would highly recommend for those that use powders to get a sample of quali herbs and taste them. They have the strongest taste and smell of all the powders available in the US i found so far. > > > > > > > > > > - > Mike Liaw > > Thursday, March 22, 2007 11:59 AM > Re: Re: Granules w/o starch > > > It's www.qualiherb.com. > > Mike L. > > Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: > I am not sure Quali has a website. I have a phone number at the office and can give it to you if you want > > > > > > > > > - > J. van Es > > Thursday, March 22, 2007 10:32 AM > Re: Granules w/o starch > > Alon, > > Where do you source your Sheng Chang/ Quali granules? I couldn't > find a website. > > Thanks, > > Jan > > , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@> > wrote: > > > > Tom > > Do you know if KPC is able to sell in Japan the formulas that > contain marc? When i visited Sheng Chang (Quali) they told me you > cant do that if you are to sell in Japan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > Tom Verhaeghe > > > > Thursday, March 22, 2007 3:27 AM > > Re: Granules w/o starch > > > > > > KPC uses both potato starch and marc to make their granules: > > > > " In a completely enclosed chamber, protected against > > cross-contamination, the concentrated herb extracts undergo a > > non-continuous granulation process known as flow coating. The > > concentrate is sprayed either on potato starch particles or > particles > > of the same herb(s) and is subsequently vacuum-dried at low > temperature. " > > > > plus some pictures @ http://www.sinecura.be/ > > > > Tom. > > > > , " Alon Marcus " > > <alonmarcus@> wrote: > > > > > > not in Taiwan because of japan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > kip@ > > > > > > Wednesday, March 21, 2007 3:04 PM > > > RE: Re: Granules w/o starch > > > > > > > > > The marc is the leftover plant material after extraction. It is > my > > > understanding that many companies spray the concentrated extract > > of the > > > medicinal back onto the marc instead of using starch. > > > > > > Kip > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2007 Report Share Posted March 23, 2007 I can appreciate you not wanting to endorse. I think all of us have had favorite brands, sometimes coming and going. Certainly, there are personal connections when a manufacturer or distributor seems more accessible or goes out of their way to solve a problem, herbally or otherwises. Often times manufacturer will have a good ready-made, manufactured formula for one thing but be so-so in other formulas. It would seem to be a tricky business for them. Having customers switch because of price, or a bad reaction or some other thing beyond their control. I remember that group from Australia that came to the US to sell their granules a few years ago. They knew what they were doing, had funding, were smart. However, one issue I had, was " why should switch over all my herbs and can I trust them to still be around in 5 years? " Which unfortunately came to pass. doug > Not to endorse or anything, but I have been using Quali granules for 2 > years now and have been very impressed with their effectiveness and > consistency. The powders are the same color when I re-order them, > something I have had issue with in the past with other brands. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2007 Report Share Posted March 23, 2007 thanks - J. van Es Friday, March 23, 2007 3:17 PM Re: Granules w/o starch Alon, Here's the contact info for Health Source: Eva Zhang, Orders (866) 626-5666. Their in Elmont, Ca. So, for west coast orders shipping is reasonable. Best Regards, Jan , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus wrote: > > J. Van Es > Do you have contact info for Health Source? I would like to get some samples of E-Fong > > > > > > > > > - > J. van Es > > Wednesday, March 21, 2007 3:39 PM > Re: Granules w/o starch > > > Alon, > > Yes, they are available in the U.S. through Health Source. I > recommend going to the website www.e-fong.com. They also have a > detailed flow chart of their manufacturing process on the website. > > Best, > > J. van Es > > , " Alon Marcus " > <alonmarcus@> wrote: > > > > J. Van Es > > are they available in US? > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > J. van Es > > > > > > > Danny, > > > > Check out E-Fong granules from Guangdong Yifang Pharmaceuticals. > > They don't use any starch or binding agents. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 , " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001 wrote: > > I can absolutely assure you that there does not have to be a carrier. I was always under the impression that the carrier allowed the powder to flow evenly and avoid clumping. If that was the case, it seems that the carrier might be required for mixing customized powders, while capsules and other products could achieve a higher concentration because there is no need to have the product pour smoothly. I'd be really interested to learn whether or not the filler is essential for the method of combining granule powders. Some herbs would tend to have stickier extracts that would be more prone to clumping, while others might be more easy to deal with. To me, the big thing that is missing is precise conversion information on most of the products out there. Many of the companies import from Taiwan, and the Taiwanese labels are extremely detailed about the precise (and varied!) concentration ratio of each product. However, the information is removed from the US label for the exact same product, and all that we see is 1 g proprietary blend of herb X extract and powder. There is no transparency and no call for increased transparency by consumers. As it is, very few practitioners are aware of exactly how many grams of raw herbs their concentrated doses are equivalent to. Few herbal companies provide this information, yet one would think that the good companies would be advertising and promoting the strength of their concentrations. When the data exists, why hide it? Western drugs would never remove their dosage imprint for an overseas market. While the new Blue Poppy herbs and the Golden Flower tablets are very clear about their concentration (Mayway, too, if I recall correctly), I find that most companies don't list their concentration ratios and raw conversion info. While I completely agree that good extraction techniques and high-quality starting materials are key, and I don't in any way underestimate the importance of tasting the product for quality and effect, I do think that this conversation would be much more informed if we had more than taste and reputation to go on. If all the companies would simply inform the customers of the amount of raw herbs per oz, gram, tablet, or whatever, we would be able to simply compare the potency and concentration of the raw ingredients, and after having a basic mathematical look at the equation, we could then launch into a topic on which herbs are the freshest, tastiest, nicest technology, etc. But at the moment, very few of us even know the basic quantity of crude drugs that we are prescribing. As a side note, I saw some xing ren in a granule jar (in the US) that looked and smelled just like the ground raw product. And I recently had a bottle of Taiwanese yi yi ren extract that was 96% crude drug and 6% concentrated extract (0.6 g crude drug concentrated into 0.037 g of extract)- basically was just concentrated 1.5:1 by the end. The huang bai from the same company was something like 4.6:1 (4.2 grams of huang bai concentrated into 0.6 g of powder, with 0.4 g of ground huang bai as filler per gram). So these things are variable and not the least bit transparent in terms of US labelling. Also of note is that minerals and gelatins are not concentrated in granule form, they are just the finely ground form of the crude drug. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Eric and group, I also have been concerned about this for years, it is a MAJOR problem. I have called the companies on multiple occasions and never can get a straight answer. Didn't Alon at one time say that he some lists of the ratios? Does anyone else? I guess this is one of the many reasons I choose Bulk herbs. :-) - _____ On Behalf Of Eric Brand To me, the big thing that is missing is precise conversion information on most of the products out there. Many of the companies import from Taiwan, and the Taiwanese labels are extremely detailed about the precise (and varied!) concentration ratio of each product. However, the information is removed from the US label for the exact same product, and all that we see is 1 g proprietary blend of herb X extract and powder. There is no transparency and no call for increased transparency by consumers. As it is, very few practitioners are aware of exactly how many grams of raw herbs their concentrated doses are equivalent to. Few herbal companies provide this information, yet one would think that the good companies would be advertising and promoting the strength of their concentrations. When the data exists, why hide it? Western drugs would never remove their dosage imprint for an overseas market. While the new Blue Poppy herbs and the Golden Flower tablets are very clear about their concentration (Mayway, too, if I recall correctly), I find that most companies don't list their concentration ratios and raw conversion info. While I completely agree that good extraction techniques and high-quality starting materials are key, and I don't in any way underestimate the importance of tasting the product for quality and effect, I do think that this conversation would be much more informed if we had more than taste and reputation to go on. If all the companies would simply inform the customers of the amount of raw herbs per oz, gram, tablet, or whatever, we would be able to simply compare the potency and concentration of the raw ingredients, and after having a basic mathematical look at the equation, we could then launch into a topic on which herbs are the freshest, tastiest, nicest technology, etc. But at the moment, very few of us even know the basic quantity of crude drugs that we are prescribing. As a side note, I saw some xing ren in a granule jar (in the US) that looked and smelled just like the ground raw product. And I recently had a bottle of Taiwanese yi yi ren extract that was 96% crude drug and 6% concentrated extract (0.6 g crude drug concentrated into 0.037 g of extract)- basically was just concentrated 1.5:1 by the end. The huang bai from the same company was something like 4.6:1 (4.2 grams of huang bai concentrated into 0.6 g of powder, with 0.4 g of ground huang bai as filler per gram). So these things are variable and not the least bit transparent in terms of US labelling. Also of note is that minerals and gelatins are not concentrated in granule form, they are just the finely ground form of the crude drug. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Bob I just dissolved a cap of hyperquell in H2O and there is a sediment. If Bluepoppy herbs do not use any carriers what is the sediment? - Wednesday, March 28, 2007 5:20 AM RE: Re: Granules w/o starch Eric and group, I also have been concerned about this for years, it is a MAJOR problem. I have called the companies on multiple occasions and never can get a straight answer. Didn't Alon at one time say that he some lists of the ratios? Does anyone else? I guess this is one of the many reasons I choose Bulk herbs. :-) - _____ On Behalf Of Eric Brand To me, the big thing that is missing is precise conversion information on most of the products out there. Many of the companies import from Taiwan, and the Taiwanese labels are extremely detailed about the precise (and varied!) concentration ratio of each product. However, the information is removed from the US label for the exact same product, and all that we see is 1 g proprietary blend of herb X extract and powder. There is no transparency and no call for increased transparency by consumers. As it is, very few practitioners are aware of exactly how many grams of raw herbs their concentrated doses are equivalent to. Few herbal companies provide this information, yet one would think that the good companies would be advertising and promoting the strength of their concentrations. When the data exists, why hide it? Western drugs would never remove their dosage imprint for an overseas market. While the new Blue Poppy herbs and the Golden Flower tablets are very clear about their concentration (Mayway, too, if I recall correctly), I find that most companies don't list their concentration ratios and raw conversion info. While I completely agree that good extraction techniques and high-quality starting materials are key, and I don't in any way underestimate the importance of tasting the product for quality and effect, I do think that this conversation would be much more informed if we had more than taste and reputation to go on. If all the companies would simply inform the customers of the amount of raw herbs per oz, gram, tablet, or whatever, we would be able to simply compare the potency and concentration of the raw ingredients, and after having a basic mathematical look at the equation, we could then launch into a topic on which herbs are the freshest, tastiest, nicest technology, etc. But at the moment, very few of us even know the basic quantity of crude drugs that we are prescribing. As a side note, I saw some xing ren in a granule jar (in the US) that looked and smelled just like the ground raw product. And I recently had a bottle of Taiwanese yi yi ren extract that was 96% crude drug and 6% concentrated extract (0.6 g crude drug concentrated into 0.037 g of extract)- basically was just concentrated 1.5:1 by the end. The huang bai from the same company was something like 4.6:1 (4.2 grams of huang bai concentrated into 0.6 g of powder, with 0.4 g of ground huang bai as filler per gram). So these things are variable and not the least bit transparent in terms of US labelling. Also of note is that minerals and gelatins are not concentrated in granule form, they are just the finely ground form of the crude drug. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Jason The only info i have is on Qualiherbs and only on formulas not singles. As eric said you can get information from Taiwanese labels. While goldenflower says all its tabs are 7.5 to 1 i wander if such a constant ratio is possible for all formulas because different materials cannot be concentrated to the same extent. That is why there is so much variability in different formulas and singles, at least when using traditional h2o extractions. That is what i was told in Taiwan. - Wednesday, March 28, 2007 5:20 AM RE: Re: Granules w/o starch Eric and group, I also have been concerned about this for years, it is a MAJOR problem. I have called the companies on multiple occasions and never can get a straight answer. Didn't Alon at one time say that he some lists of the ratios? Does anyone else? I guess this is one of the many reasons I choose Bulk herbs. :-) - _____ On Behalf Of Eric Brand To me, the big thing that is missing is precise conversion information on most of the products out there. Many of the companies import from Taiwan, and the Taiwanese labels are extremely detailed about the precise (and varied!) concentration ratio of each product. However, the information is removed from the US label for the exact same product, and all that we see is 1 g proprietary blend of herb X extract and powder. There is no transparency and no call for increased transparency by consumers. As it is, very few practitioners are aware of exactly how many grams of raw herbs their concentrated doses are equivalent to. Few herbal companies provide this information, yet one would think that the good companies would be advertising and promoting the strength of their concentrations. When the data exists, why hide it? Western drugs would never remove their dosage imprint for an overseas market. While the new Blue Poppy herbs and the Golden Flower tablets are very clear about their concentration (Mayway, too, if I recall correctly), I find that most companies don't list their concentration ratios and raw conversion info. While I completely agree that good extraction techniques and high-quality starting materials are key, and I don't in any way underestimate the importance of tasting the product for quality and effect, I do think that this conversation would be much more informed if we had more than taste and reputation to go on. If all the companies would simply inform the customers of the amount of raw herbs per oz, gram, tablet, or whatever, we would be able to simply compare the potency and concentration of the raw ingredients, and after having a basic mathematical look at the equation, we could then launch into a topic on which herbs are the freshest, tastiest, nicest technology, etc. But at the moment, very few of us even know the basic quantity of crude drugs that we are prescribing. As a side note, I saw some xing ren in a granule jar (in the US) that looked and smelled just like the ground raw product. And I recently had a bottle of Taiwanese yi yi ren extract that was 96% crude drug and 6% concentrated extract (0.6 g crude drug concentrated into 0.037 g of extract)- basically was just concentrated 1.5:1 by the end. The huang bai from the same company was something like 4.6:1 (4.2 grams of huang bai concentrated into 0.6 g of powder, with 0.4 g of ground huang bai as filler per gram). So these things are variable and not the least bit transparent in terms of US labelling. Also of note is that minerals and gelatins are not concentrated in granule form, they are just the finely ground form of the crude drug. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Alon, I'm not sure why there is a sediment, but I can assure you there is no binder. The extract is air dried. It is not sprayed on anything. It may be that the specified weight of the extract did not fill the capsule. In that case, the encapsulator may have added rice flour to fill the capsule. People don't like to see capsules which are not full. They think they are getting shorted. Since we have no way in advance to know if a given weight of extract is going to completely fill the capsule, the encapsulator makes this determination and the rice flour is added at their discretion. We have specified that, when this is necessary, the encapsulator only use rice flour and not any corn, wheat, or potato starch product. We have chosen rice fliur because it is hypoallergenic. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Alon, I just ran the same experiment on a capsule of Celestial Mansion (didn't have an open HyperQuell around). I see a very tiny amount of sediment at the bottom. However, I think your reasoning is fallacious. You posit that, because there is sediment, ipso facto, there must be binder. Ok, now follow this line of reasoning. The extract is first made into a decoction. If one lets a decoction sit for any length of time, there will be a sediment. A decoction is a very fine suspension of particulate matter " dissolved " in water. Ok, next the decoction is concentrated to a predetermined amount. Then that liquid is forced air dried. When the water (H2O) is removed, what is left is the particulate matter that was not H2O, the same as in a decoction. If the specific gravity of this particulate matter is heavier than that of water, it will settle to the bottom. So just because there is sediment does not mean there is a binder. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Alon, Goldenflower tab is bigger than standard KPC tab. KPC makes all of the herb product for Glodenflower. You probably need to contact KPC directly. Their phone number is 949-727-4000. Please ask Mr. Thomas Tsay. He is the manager for US distribution. He is one of the family members who own KPC. He will be able to direct you the best person to discuss the issue. You can use my name as the referral. Ta-Ya Lee Ta-Ya Lee, MSN, CRNP, MAc, LAc, MBA Johns Hopkins Community Physicians Wyman Park Internal Medicine Phone 410-338-3421 Fax 410-338-3413 WARNING: E-mail sent over the Internet is not secure. Information sent by e-mail may not remain confidential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Bob You are probably right except that if some of the material that is being air dried is physical powder that is a kind of marc and my allow for better powdering, i am not sure. I think the Taiwanese only spray the liquid part of the extract on a carrier. I do have to say that % wise the blue poppy cap had a fairly small amount of sediment compared to most other products. As for the extracts, i was told by quliherb guys that there are quite a few herbs that do not do well high concentrate and they have shown me data that states that there is more active ingredients in a 3 to 1 than a higher concentrate. It did not make sense to me but i am not a chemist - Bob Flaws Wednesday, March 28, 2007 8:42 AM Re: Granules w/o starch Alon, I just ran the same experiment on a capsule of Celestial Mansion (didn't have an open HyperQuell around). I see a very tiny amount of sediment at the bottom. However, I think your reasoning is fallacious. You posit that, because there is sediment, ipso facto, there must be binder. Ok, now follow this line of reasoning. The extract is first made into a decoction. If one lets a decoction sit for any length of time, there will be a sediment. A decoction is a very fine suspension of particulate matter " dissolved " in water. Ok, next the decoction is concentrated to a predetermined amount. Then that liquid is forced air dried. When the water (H2O) is removed, what is left is the particulate matter that was not H2O, the same as in a decoction. If the specific gravity of this particulate matter is heavier than that of water, it will settle to the bottom. So just because there is sediment does not mean there is a binder. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Bob a pharmaceutical starch may be more " hypoallergenic " since there is no proteins in it at all. - Bob Flaws Wednesday, March 28, 2007 8:20 AM Re: Granules w/o starch Alon, I'm not sure why there is a sediment, but I can assure you there is no binder. The extract is air dried. It is not sprayed on anything. It may be that the specified weight of the extract did not fill the capsule. In that case, the encapsulator may have added rice flour to fill the capsule. People don't like to see capsules which are not full. They think they are getting shorted. Since we have no way in advance to know if a given weight of extract is going to completely fill the capsule, the encapsulator makes this determination and the rice flour is added at their discretion. We have specified that, when this is necessary, the encapsulator only use rice flour and not any corn, wheat, or potato starch product. We have chosen rice fliur because it is hypoallergenic. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 As for the issue of concentration on clinical efficacy, of course, each company is going to supply data that supports their product. But, as long as you capture all the volatile oils and other ingredients, the position you stated doesn't amek sense. I have now let the Celestial Mansion I dossolved in water sit for three hours. There is a very, very samll amount of sediment. There are also some very small visible particles suspended in the top third of the liquid. I'm going to let this sit over night and see what it looks like tomorrow. Bob , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus wrote: > > Bob > You are probably right except that if some of the material that is being air dried is physical powder that is a kind of marc and my allow for better powdering, i am not sure. > I think the Taiwanese only spray the liquid part of the extract on a carrier. I do have to say that % wise the blue poppy cap had a fairly small amount of sediment compared to most other products. > As for the extracts, i was told by quliherb guys that there are quite a few herbs that do not do well high concentrate and they have shown me data that states that there is more active ingredients in a 3 to 1 than a higher concentrate. It did not make sense to me but i am not a chemist > > > > > > > > > - > Bob Flaws > > Wednesday, March 28, 2007 8:42 AM > Re: Granules w/o starch > > > Alon, > > I just ran the same experiment on a capsule of Celestial Mansion > (didn't have an open HyperQuell around). I see a very tiny amount of > sediment at the bottom. However, I think your reasoning is fallacious. > You posit that, because there is sediment, ipso facto, there must be > binder. Ok, now follow this line of reasoning. The extract is first > made into a decoction. If one lets a decoction sit for any length of > time, there will be a sediment. A decoction is a very fine suspension > of particulate matter " dissolved " in water. Ok, next the decoction is > concentrated to a predetermined amount. Then that liquid is forced air > dried. When the water (H2O) is removed, what is left is the > particulate matter that was not H2O, the same as in a decoction. If > the specific gravity of this particulate matter is heavier than that > of water, it will settle to the bottom. So just because there is > sediment does not mean there is a binder. > > Bob > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 I really like Mayway's 5:1 formula extracts. They smell, taste, and seem to work well, but the single herb extracts don't seem as potent to me. Mayway says they use no carriers, fillers, drying agents, or preservatives so I called them for more info. It turns out that the single herb extracts use microcellulose derived from corn as a carrier while the formula extracts don't use anything. -Danny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 thanks - Ta-Ya Lee Wednesday, March 28, 2007 9:23 AM Re: Re: Granules w/o starch Alon, Goldenflower tab is bigger than standard KPC tab. KPC makes all of the herb product for Glodenflower. You probably need to contact KPC directly. Their phone number is 949-727-4000. Please ask Mr. Thomas Tsay. He is the manager for US distribution. He is one of the family members who own KPC. He will be able to direct you the best person to discuss the issue. You can use my name as the referral. Ta-Ya Lee Ta-Ya Lee, MSN, CRNP, MAc, LAc, MBA Johns Hopkins Community Physicians Wyman Park Internal Medicine Phone 410-338-3421 Fax 410-338-3413 WARNING: E-mail sent over the Internet is not secure. Information sent by e-mail may not remain confidential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Bob The Hyperquall i dissolved i did in boiling h20 and it set over night - Bob Flaws Wednesday, March 28, 2007 11:29 AM Re: Granules w/o starch As for the issue of concentration on clinical efficacy, of course, each company is going to supply data that supports their product. But, as long as you capture all the volatile oils and other ingredients, the position you stated doesn't amek sense. I have now let the Celestial Mansion I dossolved in water sit for three hours. There is a very, very samll amount of sediment. There are also some very small visible particles suspended in the top third of the liquid. I'm going to let this sit over night and see what it looks like tomorrow. Bob , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus wrote: > > Bob > You are probably right except that if some of the material that is being air dried is physical powder that is a kind of marc and my allow for better powdering, i am not sure. > I think the Taiwanese only spray the liquid part of the extract on a carrier. I do have to say that % wise the blue poppy cap had a fairly small amount of sediment compared to most other products. > As for the extracts, i was told by quliherb guys that there are quite a few herbs that do not do well high concentrate and they have shown me data that states that there is more active ingredients in a 3 to 1 than a higher concentrate. It did not make sense to me but i am not a chemist > > > > > > > > > - > Bob Flaws > > Wednesday, March 28, 2007 8:42 AM > Re: Granules w/o starch > > > Alon, > > I just ran the same experiment on a capsule of Celestial Mansion > (didn't have an open HyperQuell around). I see a very tiny amount of > sediment at the bottom. However, I think your reasoning is fallacious. > You posit that, because there is sediment, ipso facto, there must be > binder. Ok, now follow this line of reasoning. The extract is first > made into a decoction. If one lets a decoction sit for any length of > time, there will be a sediment. A decoction is a very fine suspension > of particulate matter " dissolved " in water. Ok, next the decoction is > concentrated to a predetermined amount. Then that liquid is forced air > dried. When the water (H2O) is removed, what is left is the > particulate matter that was not H2O, the same as in a decoction. If > the specific gravity of this particulate matter is heavier than that > of water, it will settle to the bottom. So just because there is > sediment does not mean there is a binder. > > Bob > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 You guys are almost convincing me to rethink trying granules again.. About the mayway granules, the only problem is the very fine grind of the powder. It makes a mess and some are very hard to dissolve in water (is there a trick to it?). I recall that KPC and Min Tong had larger particle size and were easier to clean up / dissolve. Geoff , Danny Johnson <danny wrote: > > I really like Mayway's 5:1 formula extracts. They smell, taste, and > seem to work well, but the single herb extracts don't seem as potent > to me. Mayway says they use no carriers, fillers, drying agents, or > preservatives so I called them for more info. It turns out that the > single herb extracts use microcellulose derived from corn as a > carrier while the formula extracts don't use anything. > > -Danny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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