Granules w/o starch

[Guest guest]

Alon & Eric,

 

 

 

IS there a website with the Taiwanese labels?

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Alon Marcus

Wednesday, March 28, 2007 8:30 AM

 

Re: Re: Granules w/o starch

 

 

 

Jason

 

The only info i have is on Qualiherbs and only on formulas not singles. As

eric said you can get information from Taiwanese labels. While goldenflower

says all its tabs are 7.5 to 1 i wander if such a constant ratio is possible

for all formulas because different materials cannot be concentrated to the

same extent. That is why there is so much variability in different formulas

and singles, at least when using traditional h2o extractions. That is what i

was told in Taiwan.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

 

@ <%40>

 

Wednesday, March 28, 2007 5:20 AM

RE: Re: Granules w/o starch

 

Eric and group,

 

I also have been concerned about this for years, it is a MAJOR problem. I

have called the companies on multiple occasions and never can get a straight

answer. Didn't Alon at one time say that he some lists of the ratios? Does

anyone else? I guess this is one of the many reasons I choose Bulk herbs.

:-)

 

-

 

_____

 

@ <%40>

 

[@ <%40>

] On Behalf Of Eric Brand

 

To me, the big thing that is missing is precise conversion information

on most of the products out there. Many of the companies import from

Taiwan, and the Taiwanese labels are extremely detailed about the

precise (and varied!) concentration ratio of each product. However,

the information is removed from the US label for the exact same

product, and all that we see is 1 g proprietary blend of herb X

extract and powder. There is no transparency and no call for

increased transparency by consumers. As it is, very few practitioners

are aware of exactly how many grams of raw herbs their concentrated

doses are equivalent to. Few herbal companies provide this

information, yet one would think that the good companies would be

advertising and promoting the strength of their concentrations. When

the data exists, why hide it? Western drugs would never remove their

dosage imprint for an overseas market.

 

While the new Blue Poppy herbs and the Golden Flower tablets are very

clear about their concentration (Mayway, too, if I recall correctly),

I find that most companies don't list their concentration ratios and

raw conversion info. While I completely agree that good extraction

techniques and high-quality starting materials are key, and I don't in

any way underestimate the importance of tasting the product for

quality and effect, I do think that this conversation would be much

more informed if we had more than taste and reputation to go on. If

all the companies would simply inform the customers of the amount of

raw herbs per oz, gram, tablet, or whatever, we would be able to

simply compare the potency and concentration of the raw ingredients,

and after having a basic mathematical look at the equation, we could

then launch into a topic on which herbs are the freshest, tastiest,

nicest technology, etc. But at the moment, very few of us even know

the basic quantity of crude drugs that we are prescribing.

 

As a side note, I saw some xing ren in a granule jar (in the US) that

looked and smelled just like the ground raw product. And I recently

had a bottle of Taiwanese yi yi ren extract that was 96% crude drug

and 6% concentrated extract (0.6 g crude drug concentrated into 0.037

g of extract)- basically was just concentrated 1.5:1 by the end. The

huang bai from the same company was something like 4.6:1 (4.2 grams of

huang bai concentrated into 0.6 g of powder, with 0.4 g of ground

huang bai as filler per gram). So these things are variable and not

the least bit transparent in terms of US labelling. Also of note is

that minerals and gelatins are not concentrated in granule form, they

are just the finely ground form of the crude drug.

 

Eric

 

 

[Guest guest]

i do not know

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

Thursday, March 29, 2007 3:43 PM

RE: Re: Granules w/o starch

 

 

Alon & Eric,

 

IS there a website with the Taiwanese labels?

 

-Jason

 

_____

 

On Behalf Of Alon Marcus

Wednesday, March 28, 2007 8:30 AM

Re: Re: Granules w/o starch

 

Jason

 

The only info i have is on Qualiherbs and only on formulas not singles. As

eric said you can get information from Taiwanese labels. While goldenflower

says all its tabs are 7.5 to 1 i wander if such a constant ratio is possible

for all formulas because different materials cannot be concentrated to the

same extent. That is why there is so much variability in different formulas

and singles, at least when using traditional h2o extractions. That is what i

was told in Taiwan.

 

 

 

-

@ <%40>

Wednesday, March 28, 2007 5:20 AM

RE: Re: Granules w/o starch

 

Eric and group,

 

I also have been concerned about this for years, it is a MAJOR problem. I

have called the companies on multiple occasions and never can get a straight

answer. Didn't Alon at one time say that he some lists of the ratios? Does

anyone else? I guess this is one of the many reasons I choose Bulk herbs.

:-)

 

-

 

_____

 

@ <%40>

[@ <%40>

] On Behalf Of Eric Brand

 

To me, the big thing that is missing is precise conversion information

on most of the products out there. Many of the companies import from

Taiwan, and the Taiwanese labels are extremely detailed about the

precise (and varied!) concentration ratio of each product. However,

the information is removed from the US label for the exact same

product, and all that we see is 1 g proprietary blend of herb X

extract and powder. There is no transparency and no call for

increased transparency by consumers. As it is, very few practitioners

are aware of exactly how many grams of raw herbs their concentrated

doses are equivalent to. Few herbal companies provide this

information, yet one would think that the good companies would be

advertising and promoting the strength of their concentrations. When

the data exists, why hide it? Western drugs would never remove their

dosage imprint for an overseas market.

 

While the new Blue Poppy herbs and the Golden Flower tablets are very

clear about their concentration (Mayway, too, if I recall correctly),

I find that most companies don't list their concentration ratios and

raw conversion info. While I completely agree that good extraction

techniques and high-quality starting materials are key, and I don't in

any way underestimate the importance of tasting the product for

quality and effect, I do think that this conversation would be much

more informed if we had more than taste and reputation to go on. If

all the companies would simply inform the customers of the amount of

raw herbs per oz, gram, tablet, or whatever, we would be able to

simply compare the potency and concentration of the raw ingredients,

and after having a basic mathematical look at the equation, we could

then launch into a topic on which herbs are the freshest, tastiest,

nicest technology, etc. But at the moment, very few of us even know

the basic quantity of crude drugs that we are prescribing.

 

As a side note, I saw some xing ren in a granule jar (in the US) that

looked and smelled just like the ground raw product. And I recently

had a bottle of Taiwanese yi yi ren extract that was 96% crude drug

and 6% concentrated extract (0.6 g crude drug concentrated into 0.037

g of extract)- basically was just concentrated 1.5:1 by the end. The

huang bai from the same company was something like 4.6:1 (4.2 grams of

huang bai concentrated into 0.6 g of powder, with 0.4 g of ground

huang bai as filler per gram). So these things are variable and not

the least bit transparent in terms of US labelling. Also of note is

that minerals and gelatins are not concentrated in granule form, they

are just the finely ground form of the crude drug.

 

Eric

 

[Guest guest]

I have used powders now for 15 years and like it very much

I have not notched reduced outcomes since i switched from bulk. I do have much

better compliance

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

G Hudson

Thursday, March 29, 2007 3:01 PM

Re: Granules w/o starch

 

 

You guys are almost convincing me to rethink trying granules again..

 

About the mayway granules, the only problem is the very fine grind of

the powder. It makes a mess and some are very hard to dissolve in

water (is there a trick to it?). I recall that KPC and Min Tong had

larger particle size and were easier to clean up / dissolve.

 

Geoff

 

, Danny Johnson <danny

wrote:

>

> I really like Mayway's 5:1 formula extracts. They smell, taste, and

> seem to work well, but the single herb extracts don't seem as potent

> to me. Mayway says they use no carriers, fillers, drying agents, or

> preservatives so I called them for more info. It turns out that the

> single herb extracts use microcellulose derived from corn as a

> carrier while the formula extracts don't use anything.

>

> -Danny

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " G Hudson " <crudo20 wrote:

>

> You guys are almost convincing me to rethink trying granules again..

 

Not at all. Granules are very effective. I've personally seen

excellent results with them and compliance is high. But more

importantly, there are thousands of Chinese doctors in Taiwan who

report consistently good results with granules when compounded

together and prescribed in doses of around 18g/day. The vast majority

of these doctors far surpass my own personal knowledge, skill, and

experience, and they prescribe granule products all day long to

literally millions of patients. If granules were not providing

satisfactory results (in a society with access to every other form of

preparation) they would not be dominating the healthcare field.

 

To me, the important thing is to note is the trends in dosage used by

these thousands of practitioners and millions of patients, regardless

of the exact concentration ratio of any given product. There is a

certain range of variability in the exact ratios of the products and

the various products by different companies are often used

interchangeably in hospitals and large clinics. However, there IS a

consistent approach to dosage when using concentrated granules, and in

my experience the vast majority of Taiwanese doctors use around

18g/day for normal doses, ranging down to about 12g/day for more mild

cases or for large children.

 

I don't know any place on the web that lists the concentration ratios

for the various products on the market- certainly a complete list

would require surveying at least 3000 individual products for Taiwan

alone, given the large number of products produced by each of the main

companies. Japan has always been a major producer of granules and

mainland Chinese products are now emerging prominently on the market.

Who has the time and access to the thousands of bottles?

 

Eric

[Guest guest]

Eric,

 

 

 

Personally I do not need to access 3000 bottles. I just need to 300+ or so

that we carry. IT is a shame that the company (which I will not mention)

that we use will not supply me with this information.. Very bizarre.

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Eric Brand

Thursday, March 29, 2007 11:45 PM

 

Re: Granules w/o starch

 

 

 

@ <%40>

, " G Hudson " <crudo20 wrote:

>

> You guys are almost convincing me to rethink trying granules again..

 

Not at all. Granules are very effective. I've personally seen

excellent results with them and compliance is high. But more

importantly, there are thousands of Chinese doctors in Taiwan who

report consistently good results with granules when compounded

together and prescribed in doses of around 18g/day. The vast majority

of these doctors far surpass my own personal knowledge, skill, and

experience, and they prescribe granule products all day long to

literally millions of patients. If granules were not providing

satisfactory results (in a society with access to every other form of

preparation) they would not be dominating the healthcare field.

 

To me, the important thing is to note is the trends in dosage used by

these thousands of practitioners and millions of patients, regardless

of the exact concentration ratio of any given product. There is a

certain range of variability in the exact ratios of the products and

the various products by different companies are often used

interchangeably in hospitals and large clinics. However, there IS a

consistent approach to dosage when using concentrated granules, and in

my experience the vast majority of Taiwanese doctors use around

18g/day for normal doses, ranging down to about 12g/day for more mild

cases or for large children.

 

I don't know any place on the web that lists the concentration ratios

for the various products on the market- certainly a complete list

would require surveying at least 3000 individual products for Taiwan

alone, given the large number of products produced by each of the main

companies. Japan has always been a major producer of granules and

mainland Chinese products are now emerging prominently on the market.

Who has the time and access to the thousands of bottles?

 

Eric

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Jason

why don't you try the web page of the company you use

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

Friday, March 30, 2007 4:44 AM

RE: Granules w/o starch

 

 

Eric,

 

Personally I do not need to access 3000 bottles. I just need to 300+ or so

that we carry. IT is a shame that the company (which I will not mention)

that we use will not supply me with this information.. Very bizarre.

 

-Jason

 

_____

 

On Behalf Of Eric Brand

Thursday, March 29, 2007 11:45 PM

Re: Granules w/o starch

 

@ <%40>

, " G Hudson " <crudo20 wrote:

>

> You guys are almost convincing me to rethink trying granules again..

 

Not at all. Granules are very effective. I've personally seen

excellent results with them and compliance is high. But more

importantly, there are thousands of Chinese doctors in Taiwan who

report consistently good results with granules when compounded

together and prescribed in doses of around 18g/day. The vast majority

of these doctors far surpass my own personal knowledge, skill, and

experience, and they prescribe granule products all day long to

literally millions of patients. If granules were not providing

satisfactory results (in a society with access to every other form of

preparation) they would not be dominating the healthcare field.

 

To me, the important thing is to note is the trends in dosage used by

these thousands of practitioners and millions of patients, regardless

of the exact concentration ratio of any given product. There is a

certain range of variability in the exact ratios of the products and

the various products by different companies are often used

interchangeably in hospitals and large clinics. However, there IS a

consistent approach to dosage when using concentrated granules, and in

my experience the vast majority of Taiwanese doctors use around

18g/day for normal doses, ranging down to about 12g/day for more mild

cases or for large children.

 

I don't know any place on the web that lists the concentration ratios

for the various products on the market- certainly a complete list

would require surveying at least 3000 individual products for Taiwan

alone, given the large number of products produced by each of the main

companies. Japan has always been a major producer of granules and

mainland Chinese products are now emerging prominently on the market.

Who has the time and access to the thousands of bottles?

 

Eric