Guest guest Posted April 1, 2007 Report Share Posted April 1, 2007 I used to be a chef. Cooking has foundational rules: egg whites and yolks have characteristics. Sugar, flour, meat, heat, herbs and spices. All ingredients have ³rules². The more deeply one understands the nature of ingredients, the more one can spin off from it. The most exciting chefs are deconstructing classic dishes in ways that that thrill the palate. it has been discussed many times on this board the value of studying the classics. It¹s in the deepest embodiment of such foundations that allows an experienced practitioner to spin off, re-invent, pay attention to responses, revisit, re-think. We must really know and own the basic character of herbs in order to improvise. There is no way around that. One beautiful part of Chinese medicine is the constant willingness to tinker. Weekly and even daily if necessary, a formula can be rewritten. The fluid ( no pun intended) nature of herbal medicine is a beautiful thing. but students have to start somewhere: basic rules, basic dosages, basic dui yaos, basic patterns. Eggs flour sugar. What has my head going at night is how to really refresh herbal training. How is it possible to break from the tedium of learning 300 or more herbs, and then formulas? Is there a fresh way to think about this? Can the information be conveyed more easily with technology? Can we go right to formulas and work backwards to herbs? Can we start in the middle with dui yaos can move out laterally? What are other teachers doing? I¹d really like to hear from you. Cara Alon Marcus <alonmarcus Sat, 31 Mar 2007 22:11:36 -0700 Re: Granules dosage Zev I agree with you about learning to think CM, however it needs to our CM, so i also think it is important to study classical literature but i still say it has little relevance to my patients - <%40> Saturday, March 31, 2007 8:33 PM Re: Granules dosage Alon, I would also like to hear much more from our colleagues in the West on their experiences with Chinese medicine. Precious little has made it to print. However, I do disagree about the value of classical literature. As Jason mentioned, learning to think Chinese medicine is very important, and such texts as the Nan Jing and Shang Han Lun serve that role for me. Then I have to translate that into present day circumstances. On Mar 31, 2007, at 9:28 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: > Jason i have to agree with you. I found my short experience in > China very informative as to CM thinking but it had very little > relevance to my pt here. The set of problems and more importantly > the experience and communication of clinical data is so different > that one must learn from ones practice.This in part is why i have > for years tried to get people to write more on their own > experiences instead of having worship of " Chinese sources. " I feel > the same about classical literature, while it is food for thought > and enriching in scope it is of little direct relevance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2007 Report Share Posted April 2, 2007 Cara, My herb teacher, Sara Bayer, was fantastic. I really appreciate the hard work years after. We learned herbs and formulas together. In the beginning, it was tough since we didn't know many herbs. She would segue a little when needed for the odd balls. After a while, we could parlez pretty well. She would not write down the name of the formula, just the list of individual herbs. Then she would ask us what the formula does, write it up, then the title of the formula came last, and then compare indications/functions to Bensky's book. To this day I don't care too much what the title of the formula is, but just look at the listing. Of course, that irritated a couple of inflexible Chinese teachers who scolded me for using Xue Fu Zhu Yu Tang for someone who didn't have sharp pain in the liver. It's allowed me to use a pill (patent - shhh) formulary for my patients by mixing a little of this and that to get the desired effect. Best, Geoff , Cara Frank <herbbabe wrote: > > I used to be a chef. Cooking has foundational rules: egg whites and yolks > have characteristics. Sugar, flour, meat, heat, herbs and spices. All > ingredients have ³rules². The more deeply one understands the nature of > ingredients, the more one can spin off from it. The most exciting chefs are > deconstructing classic dishes in ways that that thrill the palate. > > it has been discussed many times on this board the value of studying the > classics. It¹s in the deepest embodiment of such foundations that allows an > experienced practitioner to spin off, re-invent, pay attention to > responses, revisit, re-think. We must really know and own the basic > character of herbs in order to improvise. There is no way around that. One > beautiful part of Chinese medicine is the constant willingness to tinker. > Weekly and even daily if necessary, a formula can be rewritten. The fluid ( > no pun intended) nature of herbal medicine is a beautiful thing. > > but students have to start somewhere: basic rules, basic dosages, basic > dui yaos, basic patterns. Eggs flour sugar. > > What has my head going at night is how to really refresh herbal training. > How is it possible to break from the tedium of learning 300 or more herbs, > and then formulas? Is there a fresh way to think about this? Can the > information be conveyed more easily with technology? Can we go right to > formulas and work backwards to herbs? Can we start in the middle with dui > yaos can move out laterally? > > What are other teachers doing? I¹d really like to hear from you. > > Cara > > > > Alon Marcus <alonmarcus > > Sat, 31 Mar 2007 22:11:36 -0700 > > Re: Granules dosage > > > > > > Zev > I agree with you about learning to think CM, however it needs to our CM, so > i also think it is important to study classical literature but i still say > it has little relevance to my patients > > > > > > > > > - > > > <%40> > Saturday, March 31, 2007 8:33 PM > Re: Granules dosage > > Alon, > I would also like to hear much more from our colleagues in the > West on their experiences with Chinese medicine. Precious little has > made it to print. > However, I do disagree about the value of classical literature. > As Jason mentioned, learning to think Chinese medicine is very > important, and such texts as the Nan Jing and Shang Han Lun serve > that role for me. Then I have to translate that into present day > circumstances. > > > On Mar 31, 2007, at 9:28 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: > > > Jason i have to agree with you. I found my short experience in > > China very informative as to CM thinking but it had very little > > relevance to my pt here. The set of problems and more importantly > > the experience and communication of clinical data is so different > > that one must learn from ones practice.This in part is why i have > > for years tried to get people to write more on their own > > experiences instead of having worship of " Chinese sources. " I feel > > the same about classical literature, while it is food for thought > > and enriching in scope it is of little direct relevance. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2007 Report Share Posted April 2, 2007 Thanks Jeff. I too talk about formulas that herbs appear in: to give a point of reference, and dui yaos as we go along. but interesting that she didn¹t write the name of the formula.... Sounds like a fun exercise. Cara O. Frank, R.Ac, Dipl Ac & Ch.H. President China Herb Company of the Chinese Herb Program Tai Sophia Institute of the Healing Arts 215-438-2977 Fax 215-849-3338 G Hudson <crudo20 Mon, 02 Apr 2007 18:58:08 +0000 Re: Chinese med in the west Cara, My herb teacher, Sara Bayer, was fantastic. I really appreciate the hard work years after. We learned herbs and formulas together. In the beginning, it was tough since we didn't know many herbs. She would segue a little when needed for the odd balls. After a while, we could parlez pretty well. She would not write down the name of the formula, just the list of individual herbs. Then she would ask us what the formula does, write it up, then the title of the formula came last, and then compare indications/functions to Bensky's book. To this day I don't care too much what the title of the formula is, but just look at the listing. Of course, that irritated a couple of inflexible Chinese teachers who scolded me for using Xue Fu Zhu Yu Tang for someone who didn't have sharp pain in the liver. It's allowed me to use a pill (patent - shhh) formulary for my patients by mixing a little of this and that to get the desired effect. Best, Geoff <%40> , Cara Frank <herbbabe wrote: > > I used to be a chef. Cooking has foundational rules: egg whites and yolks > have characteristics. Sugar, flour, meat, heat, herbs and spices. All > ingredients have ³rules². The more deeply one understands the nature of > ingredients, the more one can spin off from it. The most exciting chefs are > deconstructing classic dishes in ways that that thrill the palate. > > it has been discussed many times on this board the value of studying the > classics. It¹s in the deepest embodiment of such foundations that allows an > experienced practitioner to spin off, re-invent, pay attention to > responses, revisit, re-think. We must really know and own the basic > character of herbs in order to improvise. There is no way around that. One > beautiful part of Chinese medicine is the constant willingness to tinker. > Weekly and even daily if necessary, a formula can be rewritten. The fluid ( > no pun intended) nature of herbal medicine is a beautiful thing. > > but students have to start somewhere: basic rules, basic dosages, basic > dui yaos, basic patterns. Eggs flour sugar. > > What has my head going at night is how to really refresh herbal training. > How is it possible to break from the tedium of learning 300 or more herbs, > and then formulas? Is there a fresh way to think about this? Can the > information be conveyed more easily with technology? Can we go right to > formulas and work backwards to herbs? Can we start in the middle with dui > yaos can move out laterally? > > What are other teachers doing? I¹d really like to hear from you. > > Cara > > > > Alon Marcus <alonmarcus > < <%40> > > Sat, 31 Mar 2007 22:11:36 -0700 > < <%40> > > Re: Granules dosage > > > > > > Zev > I agree with you about learning to think CM, however it needs to our CM, so > i also think it is important to study classical literature but i still say > it has little relevance to my patients > > > > > > > > > - > > <%40> > <%40> > Saturday, March 31, 2007 8:33 PM > Re: Granules dosage > > Alon, > I would also like to hear much more from our colleagues in the > West on their experiences with Chinese medicine. Precious little has > made it to print. > However, I do disagree about the value of classical literature. > As Jason mentioned, learning to think Chinese medicine is very > important, and such texts as the Nan Jing and Shang Han Lun serve > that role for me. Then I have to translate that into present day > circumstances. > > > On Mar 31, 2007, at 9:28 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: > > > Jason i have to agree with you. I found my short experience in > > China very informative as to CM thinking but it had very little > > relevance to my pt here. The set of problems and more importantly > > the experience and communication of clinical data is so different > > that one must learn from ones practice.This in part is why i have > > for years tried to get people to write more on their own > > experiences instead of having worship of " Chinese sources. " I feel > > the same about classical literature, while it is food for thought > > and enriching in scope it is of little direct relevance. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2007 Report Share Posted April 2, 2007 I've taught one semester of herb class that used this method. Personally, I think the best way is to teach is to start with formulas, go to dui yao and then single herbs. The problem is exactly that of memorization. Face it, the number of students who memorize anything past the last quiz is minimal. But students can grasp putting a formula to a syndrome. Then they can see what herbs are in them, and then the functions of the herbs. I remember presenting this at the first CHA conference in a workshop. I still think it is the best way but since it's exactly opposite the way things are done now that even if people agree to it, for a school to implement it is difficult. doug , " G Hudson " <crudo20 wrote: > > Cara, > My herb teacher, Sara Bayer, was fantastic. I really appreciate the > hard work years after. We learned herbs and formulas together. In > the beginning, it was tough since we didn't know many herbs. She > would segue a little when needed for the odd balls. After a while, we > could parlez pretty well. She would not write down the name of the > formula, just the list of individual herbs. Then she would ask us > what the formula does, write it up, then the title of the formula came > last, and then compare indications/functions to Bensky's book. To > this day I don't care too much what the title of the formula is, but > just look at the listing. Of course, that irritated a couple of > inflexible Chinese teachers who scolded me for using Xue Fu Zhu Yu > Tang for someone who didn't have sharp pain in the liver. It's > allowed me to use a pill (patent - shhh) formulary for my patients by > mixing a little of this and that to get the desired effect. > > Best, > Geoff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2007 Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 ah, you must be a niaom grad, geoff. sara also taught case management at bastyr, where i was one of her students. re: mixing herbs, one day another l.ac. in seattle asked if i'd tried kan modulars. she explained their liquid formulas, how they're meant to mix in custom, individualized proportions. i said no, but i'd been doing that with jade pharmacy liquid extracts. she chuckled. hm, i figured everyone used ready-mades/patents that way:) i'd first practiced on me of course. i can't imagine having patents be sufficient for much otherwise. lynn [crudo20] wrote: Cara, My herb teacher, Sara Bayer, was fantastic. I really appreciate the hard work years after. We learned herbs and formulas together. In the beginning, it was tough since we didn't know many herbs. She would segue a little when needed for the odd balls. After a while, we could parlez pretty well. She would not write down the name of the formula, just the list of individual herbs. Then she would ask us what the formula does, write it up, then the title of the formula came last, and then compare indications/functions to Bensky's book. To this day I don't care too much what the title of the formula is, but just look at the listing. Of course, that irritated a couple of inflexible Chinese teachers who scolded me for using Xue Fu Zhu Yu Tang for someone who didn't have sharp pain in the liver. It's allowed me to use a pill (patent - shhh) formulary for my patients by mixing a little of this and that to get the desired effect. Best, Geoff , Cara Frank <herbbabe wrote: > > I used to be a chef. Cooking has foundational rules: egg whites and yolks > have characteristics. Sugar, flour, meat, heat, herbs and spices. All > ingredients have ³rules². The more deeply one understands the nature of > ingredients, the more one can spin off from it. The most exciting chefs are > deconstructing classic dishes in ways that that thrill the palate. > > it has been discussed many times on this board the value of studying the > classics. It¹s in the deepest embodiment of such foundations that allows an > experienced practitioner to spin off, re-invent, pay attention to > responses, revisit, re-think. We must really know and own the basic > character of herbs in order to improvise. There is no way around that. One > beautiful part of Chinese medicine is the constant willingness to tinker. > Weekly and even daily if necessary, a formula can be rewritten. The fluid ( > no pun intended) nature of herbal medicine is a beautiful thing. > > but students have to start somewhere: basic rules, basic dosages, basic > dui yaos, basic patterns. Eggs flour sugar. > > What has my head going at night is how to really refresh herbal training. > How is it possible to break from the tedium of learning 300 or more herbs, > and then formulas? Is there a fresh way to think about this? Can the > information be conveyed more easily with technology? Can we go right to > formulas and work backwards to herbs? Can we start in the middle with dui > yaos can move out laterally? > > What are other teachers doing? I¹d really like to hear from you. > > Cara > > > > Alon Marcus <alonmarcus > > Sat, 31 Mar 2007 22:11:36 -0700 > > Re: Granules dosage > > > > > > Zev > I agree with you about learning to think CM, however it needs to our CM, so > i also think it is important to study classical literature but i still say > it has little relevance to my patients > > > > > > > > > - > > > <%40> > Saturday, March 31, 2007 8:33 PM > Re: Granules dosage > > Alon, > I would also like to hear much more from our colleagues in the > West on their experiences with Chinese medicine. Precious little has > made it to print. > However, I do disagree about the value of classical literature. > As Jason mentioned, learning to think Chinese medicine is very > important, and such texts as the Nan Jing and Shang Han Lun serve > that role for me. Then I have to translate that into present day > circumstances. > > > On Mar 31, 2007, at 9:28 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: > > > Jason i have to agree with you. I found my short experience in > > China very informative as to CM thinking but it had very little > > relevance to my pt here. The set of problems and more importantly > > the experience and communication of clinical data is so different > > that one must learn from ones practice.This in part is why i have > > for years tried to get people to write more on their own > > experiences instead of having worship of " Chinese sources. " I feel > > the same about classical literature, while it is food for thought > > and enriching in scope it is of little direct relevance. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2007 Report Share Posted April 5, 2007 Hi Interesting you mention the question of how to teach herbs and formulas today. I am preparing a course that will begin in September in Guadalajara Mexico, and wondered how to make it more dynamic than the one I received 15 years ago. I have to say that my chinese teacher who is a very good man, could read english, but could not speak it, so that the formula course was defeicient indeed, as you can imagine. Anyway I was checking out the possibility of teaching a formula, and the herbs of the formula at the same time. I will surely try the other way around Herb and formulas, and have the students discover what the formula is for (thanks for the tip). A friend in BC, was telling me to add pictures of the living plant, as a very useful tool, rather then drawing or processed herb. I found in internet very low quality pictures. If anyone has a good site to recommend, so that I can show good size power point slides, that would be great. A chinese friend from Cheng Du did not think that this type of teaching would work. (First the herbs and then the formulas). But I will definetely try it, and would like to have more info from anyone, who has tried it like Sara Bayer. I thought of teaching Yin an Blood tonifying formulas first. Any comment welcome, thanks Gaal gaal , " J. Lynn Detamore " <lynndetamore wrote: > > ah, you must be a niaom grad, geoff. sara also taught case management at bastyr, where i was one of her students. re: mixing herbs, one day another l.ac. in seattle asked if i'd tried kan modulars. she explained their liquid formulas, how they're meant to mix in custom, individualized proportions. i said no, but i'd been doing that with jade pharmacy liquid extracts. she chuckled. hm, i figured everyone used ready-mades/patents that way:) i'd first practiced on me of course. i can't imagine having patents be sufficient for much otherwise. lynn > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2007 Report Share Posted April 5, 2007 I assume you meant (first the formulas and then the herbs) . Seperately, I want to remind people to not put whole long posts made up of the past posts... those who get a digest end up with pages of redundant material. thanks, doug , " gaaldoc " <gaaldoc wrote: > > Hi > > Interesting you mention the question of how to teach herbs and > formulas today. > > I am preparing a course that will begin in September in Guadalajara > Mexico, and wondered how to make it more dynamic than the one I > received 15 years ago. I have to say that my chinese teacher who is a > very good man, could read english, but could not speak it, so that the > formula course was defeicient indeed, as you can imagine. > > Anyway I was checking out the possibility of teaching a formula, and > the herbs of the formula at the same time. I will surely try the other > way around Herb and formulas, and have the students discover what the > formula is for (thanks for the tip). > > A friend in BC, was telling me to add pictures of the living plant, as > a very useful tool, rather then drawing or processed herb. I found in > internet very low quality pictures. If anyone has a good site to > recommend, so that I can show good size power point slides, that would > be great. > > A chinese friend from Cheng Du did not think that this type of > teaching would work. (First the herbs and then the formulas). But I > will definetely try it, and would like to have more info from anyone, > who has tried it like Sara Bayer. > > I thought of teaching Yin an Blood tonifying formulas first. > > Any comment welcome, thanks > > Gaal > gaal > > > > , " J. Lynn Detamore " > <lynndetamore@> wrote: > > > > ah, you must be a niaom grad, geoff. sara also taught case > management at bastyr, where i was one of her students. re: mixing > herbs, one day another l.ac. in seattle asked if i'd tried kan > modulars. she explained their liquid formulas, how they're meant to > mix in custom, individualized proportions. i said no, but i'd been > doing that with jade pharmacy liquid extracts. she chuckled. hm, i > figured everyone used ready-mades/patents that way:) i'd first > practiced on me of course. i can't imagine having patents be > sufficient for much otherwise. lynn > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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