Small vs Large Dosing

[Guest guest]

todd, we did have one acup shift supr at bastyr known for at least doubling

labeled doses of patents. i didn't have shifts with her, but over time, i've

been very glad for that exposure during school. otoh, pts are sometimes reticent

to start at twice the labelled dose of anything. i explain that those labels

describe over the counter doses, and what i am prescribing is a professional

dose, based on an individual case analysis. folks are generally very comfy with

explanation. lynn

 

wrote:

I think anyone who says this (about energy) has no basis for their statements.

When the chinese talked about the qi of an herb, they were clearly referring to

its potency, not some invisible energy that had no relationship to matter. If

so, why did they always use high doses themselves and never write about the

supposed ethereal energies of herbs? In addition, purposely underdosing patients

for any reason is a breach of ethics. If the patients cannot afford the

medicine, they should not be prescribed anything at all.

 

Having said this, 10 g of powders is a standard dose in Taiwan and Japan, so

this is not the kind of underdosing I refer to. While this is far lower than the

doses used in China both historically and now, my concern is for those who use

low-dose pill products as their primary treatment modality. 10 g of a powder is

the equivalent of 50 g of raw herbs (assuming we are talking about formulas and

not mixtures of single herbs, for which the actual dosage is a mystery). OTOH, 8

pills 3X/day of even a 5:1 Mayway extract are equal to about 25 g of raw herbs,

probably less since 1/3 of each pill is filler (so maybe 18 g). You need to at

least double, if not quadruple, the dose for these pills to actually do anything

more than placebo.

 

-------------- Original message ----------------------

" jasonnesa " <jasonhenson

> I have been confused about this issue of dosing since I began my

> herbal clinic at NESA this semester. In our clinic we use 10g of

> powder as the daily dose. I have asked a number of my teachers about

> this, and it seems the consensus dosage range is 9-12g per day. Their

> reasoning behind this is largely financial, ie it would be too

> expensive for the patients in the long run to have higher daily doses.

> I have also been asking whether they look at the herbs as acting

> primarily energetically or pharmacologically, and too my surprise the

> majority have said energetically. I was wondering what CHA members

> thought?

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

are your teachers able to define what they mean by the herbs acting

" energetically " ? of course, i would say, herbs act pharmacologically. but, of

course, that is not the only way they act. lon jarret's translation of opening

of preface of shen nong ben cao jing: " the upper class of medicines...govern the

nourishment of destiny and correspond to heaven... " in yang shou-zhong's

translation, he includes, " if one wants to make one's body light... one should

base [one's efforts] on the superior class. " by making one's body light, yang

states this included supernatural powers such as flying. i've heard recently,

maybe last month, that a well kept secret of monks, qi masters, etc, was

experience and skill in obe's, out of body experiences. so, i suspect the divine

farmer maybe had astral projection and obe's in mind, rather than physical

flying. my point is, for me, pharmacology alone won't explain helping fulfill

destiny and increasing extrasensory skill. et tu? lynn

 

[jasonhenson] wrote:

I have been confused about this issue of dosing since I began my

herbal clinic at NESA this semester. In our clinic we use 10g of

powder as the daily dose. I have asked a number of my teachers about

this, and it seems the consensus dosage range is 9-12g per day. Their

reasoning behind this is largely financial, ie it would be too

expensive for the patients in the long run to have higher daily doses.

I have also been asking whether they look at the herbs as acting

primarily energetically or pharmacologically, and too my surprise the

majority have said energetically. I was wondering what CHA members

thought?

[Guest guest]

I didn't question them in depth about how they would define " energetically. " My

question

was in reference to dosage though, and it seemed apparent that they weren't very

worried

about achieving a proper therapeutic response based on a proper pharmacologic

dose. If

one is using herbs to assist in Taoist cultivation then I suppose they are

working on a level

where pharmacology doesn't matter so much. However, I'm more worried about

achieving

the best responses from my patients. The two reasons I've heard for lower than

standard

dosing are:

 

1) lower doses seem to work

2) higher doses would be too expensive

 

Neither of these answers give me comfort. The only reasonable answer, for me,

would be

that a 5:1 extract is not an exact number. While I can see that it may not be

exact, it must

be somewhat close and so far it is the only information we have to go on in

determining

dosage.

 

~Jason

 

, " J. Lynn Detamore " <lynndetamore

wrote:

>

> are your teachers able to define what they mean by the herbs acting

" energetically " ? of

course, i would say, herbs act pharmacologically. but, of course, that is not

the only way

they act. lon jarret's translation of opening of preface of shen nong ben cao

jing: " the

upper class of medicines...govern the nourishment of destiny and correspond to

heaven... "

in yang shou-zhong's translation, he includes, " if one wants to make one's body

light...

one should base [one's efforts] on the superior class. " by making one's body

light, yang

states this included supernatural powers such as flying. i've heard recently,

maybe last

month, that a well kept secret of monks, qi masters, etc, was experience and

skill in obe's,

out of body experiences. so, i suspect the divine farmer maybe had astral

projection and

obe's in mind, rather than physical flying. my point is, for me, pharmacology

alone won't

explain helping fulfill destiny and increasing extrasensory skill. et tu? lynn

>