Guest guest Posted April 12, 2007 Report Share Posted April 12, 2007 Making the body light is a code for being able to cast off the physical form and become an immortal. It implies the cultivation of yang nature (shen) and the elimination of yin nature (po, earthly desires). At a certain point in practice they supposedly could choose to leave the body and become an expression of pure spirit (hun and shen, po is left out because of its earthly, yin, death loving nature). I believe stages of this training might resemble out of body experiences. In Daoist hagiographies they describe pre-ascended masters as being able to " travel through the earth " , appear in multiple locations and assume various guises, as well as enter and manipulate the dreams of others. I always though that these skills were like the siddis [sp?] the Buddha warns people against becoming tied up in, but the end result of both tracks is the same, liberation from the physical form and from the cycle of reincarnation... while it is not a purely pharmaceutical endeavor the whole point of preserving life (lengthening the years is another common term in shen nong) is to be able to achieve transubstantiation before getting sucked back into being a cockroach or something. Light body gong fu is a physical skill involving very high level awareness and balance training. Whether or not people with these skills can actually jump as high as folks say I don't know. A friend of mine who was visiting a Korean temple says he saw a monk who was working on a roof called to the phone jump off a fifteen foot drop and easily land as if it were nothing. When he asked about it the monk explained it was a matter of timing your breath and encouraged him to learn how by jumping off of progressively higher surfaces and timing the exhalation to end with the drop. Of course, he used a ladder to get back up. While there may be some cross over between the two skills, I think they are distinct, and shen nong ben cao refers to spiritual cultivation. Par Scott - J. Lynn Detamore Thursday, April 12, 2007 3:19 AM Re: Small vs Large Dosing are your teachers able to define what they mean by the herbs acting " energetically " ? of course, i would say, herbs act pharmacologically. but, of course, that is not the only way they act. lon jarret's translation of opening of preface of shen nong ben cao jing: " the upper class of medicines...govern the nourishment of destiny and correspond to heaven... " in yang shou-zhong's translation, he includes, " if one wants to make one's body light... one should base [one's efforts] on the superior class. " by making one's body light, yang states this included supernatural powers such as flying. i've heard recently, maybe last month, that a well kept secret of monks, qi masters, etc, was experience and skill in obe's, out of body experiences. so, i suspect the divine farmer maybe had astral projection and obe's in mind, rather than physical flying. my point is, for me, pharmacology alone won't explain helping fulfill destiny and increasing extrasensory skill. et tu? lynn [jasonhenson] wrote: I have been confused about this issue of dosing since I began my herbal clinic at NESA this semester. In our clinic we use 10g of powder as the daily dose. I have asked a number of my teachers about this, and it seems the consensus dosage range is 9-12g per day. Their reasoning behind this is largely financial, ie it would be too expensive for the patients in the long run to have higher daily doses. I have also been asking whether they look at the herbs as acting primarily energetically or pharmacologically, and too my surprise the majority have said energetically. I was wondering what CHA members thought? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2007 Report Share Posted April 12, 2007 be that as it may, it has nothing to do with medical practice, IMO. BTW, my college buddy could drop 15 feet like a cat. He was a heavy drinking all state wrestler. -------------- Original message ---------------------- " Par Scott " <parufus > Making the body light is a code for being able to cast off the physical form and > become an immortal. It implies the cultivation of yang nature (shen) and the > elimination of yin nature (po, earthly desires). At a certain point in practice > they supposedly could choose to leave the body and become an expression of pure > spirit (hun and shen, po is left out because of its earthly, yin, death loving > nature). I believe stages of this training might resemble out of body > experiences. In Daoist hagiographies they describe pre-ascended masters as being > able to " travel through the earth " , appear in multiple locations and assume > various guises, as well as enter and manipulate the dreams of others. I always > though that these skills were like the siddis [sp?] the Buddha warns people > against becoming tied up in, but the end result of both tracks is the same, > liberation from the physical form and from the cycle of reincarnation... while > it is not a purely pharmaceutical endeavor the whole point of preserving life > (lengthening the years is another common term in shen nong) is to be able to > achieve transubstantiation before getting sucked back into being a cockroach or > something. > > Light body gong fu is a physical skill involving very high level awareness and > balance training. Whether or not people with these skills can actually jump as > high as folks say I don't know. A friend of mine who was visiting a Korean > temple says he saw a monk who was working on a roof called to the phone jump off > a fifteen foot drop and easily land as if it were nothing. When he asked about > it the monk explained it was a matter of timing your breath and encouraged him > to learn how by jumping off of progressively higher surfaces and timing the > exhalation to end with the drop. Of course, he used a ladder to get back up. > > While there may be some cross over between the two skills, I think they are > distinct, and shen nong ben cao refers to spiritual cultivation. > > Par Scott > > - > J. Lynn Detamore > > Thursday, April 12, 2007 3:19 AM > Re: Small vs Large Dosing > > > are your teachers able to define what they mean by the herbs acting > " energetically " ? of course, i would say, herbs act pharmacologically. but, of > course, that is not the only way they act. lon jarret's translation of opening > of preface of shen nong ben cao jing: " the upper class of medicines...govern the > nourishment of destiny and correspond to heaven... " in yang shou-zhong's > translation, he includes, " if one wants to make one's body light... one should > base [one's efforts] on the superior class. " by making one's body light, yang > states this included supernatural powers such as flying. i've heard recently, > maybe last month, that a well kept secret of monks, qi masters, etc, was > experience and skill in obe's, out of body experiences. so, i suspect the divine > farmer maybe had astral projection and obe's in mind, rather than physical > flying. my point is, for me, pharmacology alone won't explain helping fulfill > destiny and increasing extrasensory skill. et tu? lynn > > [jasonhenson] wrote: > I have been confused about this issue of dosing since I began my > herbal clinic at NESA this semester. In our clinic we use 10g of > powder as the daily dose. I have asked a number of my teachers about > this, and it seems the consensus dosage range is 9-12g per day. Their > reasoning behind this is largely financial, ie it would be too > expensive for the patients in the long run to have higher daily doses. > I have also been asking whether they look at the herbs as acting > primarily energetically or pharmacologically, and too my surprise the > majority have said energetically. I was wondering what CHA members > thought? > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2007 Report Share Posted April 12, 2007 No, I suppose it doesn't, it only reflects my opinion about the meaning of a term in an old CM text. I doubt that misinterpretation of making the body light will lead to problems, unless some lame Belgian MDs are trying to make weight loss products, and that's never happened before. Sure, I've seen people jump from over 20 feet and roll out of it, it's just physics. Presumably your friend was young, very strong and agile. Gong fu is skill training, the only reason any of it seems mystical is because we have very low standards for physical and mental performance and a very skewed view of physical culture and what constitutes fitness. - Thursday, April 12, 2007 12:02 PM Re: Small vs Large Dosing/shen nong be that as it may, it has nothing to do with medical practice, IMO. BTW, my college buddy could drop 15 feet like a cat. He was a heavy drinking all state wrestler. Todd -------------- Original message ---------------------- " Par Scott " <parufus > Making the body light is a code for being able to cast off the physical form and > become an immortal. It implies the cultivation of yang nature (shen) and the > elimination of yin nature (po, earthly desires). At a certain point in practice > they supposedly could choose to leave the body and become an expression of pure > spirit (hun and shen, po is left out because of its earthly, yin, death loving > nature). I believe stages of this training might resemble out of body > experiences. In Daoist hagiographies they describe pre-ascended masters as being > able to " travel through the earth " , appear in multiple locations and assume > various guises, as well as enter and manipulate the dreams of others. I always > though that these skills were like the siddis [sp?] the Buddha warns people > against becoming tied up in, but the end result of both tracks is the same, > liberation from the physical form and from the cycle of reincarnation... while > it is not a purely pharmaceutical endeavor the whole point of preserving life > (lengthening the years is another common term in shen nong) is to be able to > achieve transubstantiation before getting sucked back into being a cockroach or > something. > > Light body gong fu is a physical skill involving very high level awareness and > balance training. Whether or not people with these skills can actually jump as > high as folks say I don't know. A friend of mine who was visiting a Korean > temple says he saw a monk who was working on a roof called to the phone jump off > a fifteen foot drop and easily land as if it were nothing. When he asked about > it the monk explained it was a matter of timing your breath and encouraged him > to learn how by jumping off of progressively higher surfaces and timing the > exhalation to end with the drop. Of course, he used a ladder to get back up. > > While there may be some cross over between the two skills, I think they are > distinct, and shen nong ben cao refers to spiritual cultivation. > > Par Scott > > - > J. Lynn Detamore > > Thursday, April 12, 2007 3:19 AM > Re: Small vs Large Dosing > > > are your teachers able to define what they mean by the herbs acting > " energetically " ? of course, i would say, herbs act pharmacologically. but, of > course, that is not the only way they act. lon jarret's translation of opening > of preface of shen nong ben cao jing: " the upper class of medicines...govern the > nourishment of destiny and correspond to heaven... " in yang shou-zhong's > translation, he includes, " if one wants to make one's body light... one should > base [one's efforts] on the superior class. " by making one's body light, yang > states this included supernatural powers such as flying. i've heard recently, > maybe last month, that a well kept secret of monks, qi masters, etc, was > experience and skill in obe's, out of body experiences. so, i suspect the divine > farmer maybe had astral projection and obe's in mind, rather than physical > flying. my point is, for me, pharmacology alone won't explain helping fulfill > destiny and increasing extrasensory skill. et tu? lynn > > [jasonhenson] wrote: > I have been confused about this issue of dosing since I began my > herbal clinic at NESA this semester. In our clinic we use 10g of > powder as the daily dose. I have asked a number of my teachers about > this, and it seems the consensus dosage range is 9-12g per day. Their > reasoning behind this is largely financial, ie it would be too > expensive for the patients in the long run to have higher daily doses. > I have also been asking whether they look at the herbs as acting > primarily energetically or pharmacologically, and too my surprise the > majority have said energetically. I was wondering what CHA members > thought? > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2007 Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 Interesting thread ... Some readers might be unaware of the cynicism implied by the aftermath from the weight loss study in 1992-1993 in Belgium that used numerous drugs and tow Chinese herbs, instead of using Stephania tetrandra (han fang ji), the incorrect herb Aristolochia westlandi (guang fang ji) was used. For more information see http://www.acupuncture.com/herbs/aristo.htm I have a video clip I downloaded on eMule of a Wudang practitioner who demonstrates jumping off roof tops (he climbs up the building). Seems like basic physics to me. (I've jumped off the roof a couple of times when I was a kid probably not the smartest thing to do but it was uneventful). On another note, there is a type of Qigong called Qing Gong where the practitioner practices to be light. I know a Chinese friend of mine who seems pretty reliable & honest who says he has a friend in Hong Kong who is a monk who he saw with his own eyes levitate and float down the hallway. (I still would have to see it myself to believe it if you know what I mean). There are legends of the Taoist immortals who reportedly could float to the village at the top of a mountain and render the medical knowledge and then float on the next mountain top. One has to learn how to crawl before they learn how to walk ... learn how to walk before they learn how to run ... learn how to run and maybe someday you could learn how to fly but if not at least you will be a good runner. If you want to be a great practitioner first you have to be a good practitioner focus on the basics the stronger you can build your foundation the higher you can reach towards the sky But to do this don't start with your heads in the clouds. I am personally familiar with " OBE's " and I have participated at a demonstration herbal identification by energetic sensitivity under specific conditions (prior energetic introduction to the samples, using samples with distinctly differing herbal properties i.e. fang feng Rx Ledebouriella Divaricatae, zhi shi Fructus Immaturus Citri Aurantii, and bai shao Rx Paeoniae Lactiflorae; samples were not handled by hand to reduce energetic contamination; blindfolded; guiding demonstrators hand to prevent accidentally coming into physical contact with the herbal specimens; the orientation of the samples were varied with the demonstrators permission but without their knowledge so as not to be identified by position; 100% accuracy on all three herbal identification performed 4 times consecutively so it is possible. The herbs do emit energy which is perceptible to those who train in energy practices such as Qigong (I encourage every practitioner if you really want to be good as an acupuncturist to continue their energy practice, diligently and daily). This is also probably how the meridians were discovered in the first place. Just as we take offense to a MD who is untrained in TCM rendering an unfavorable opinion with respect to our medicine ... likewise a TCM practitioner who isn't skilled in Qigong might not be as aware of the energetic experience. This doesn't mean however that they aren't necessarily a good practitioner. If you want my opinion, I'm sure there is a pharmacological explanation for how herbal medicinals work however we are energy beings and the herbs also can be observed from the ancient TCM energetic perspective with regards to its perturbation on human homeostasis. Back on CHA topic of Dosing I think it is important to remember the concept of moderation. If you use an elephant gun to hunt a squirrel ... well that's a bad analogies since I dislike hunting ... you can hang a picture with a sledge hammer but its not the best tool for the job ... likewise you can try and break cement with a regular hammer but its easier with a sledge hammer ... point being that you don't necessarily have to use the maximum dose on every patient ... and if you use too small a dose then you risk the possibility of missing the benefit of the effectiveness of the herbs contribution. I think it is better to taking into consideration the role of the herbal medicinal in the formula with regards to its action in the treatment process and also to consider the severity of this indication so as to take this into account when selecting the appropriate dosage. And, then of course to look at the overall balance of the formula as to temperature, guiding herbs, etc. as well as the 6 important considerations that Bob Flaws mentions: Digestion, Elimination, Qi, Mood, Appetite, and Sleep. The overall dose of the formula should be based on the patient's age, size & weight, constitution, severity and how chronic as well as the nature of the pathogen or internal condition, etc. Just some thoughts, Steve Par Scott <parufus wrote: No, I suppose it doesn't, it only reflects my opinion about the meaning of a term in an old CM text. I doubt that misinterpretation of making the body light will lead to problems, unless some lame Belgian MDs are trying to make weight loss products, and that's never happened before. Sure, I've seen people jump from over 20 feet and roll out of it, it's just physics. Presumably your friend was young, very strong and agile. Gong fu is skill training, the only reason any of it seems mystical is because we have very low standards for physical and mental performance and a very skewed view of physical culture and what constitutes fitness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2007 Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 On 4/16/07, Steve Sterling <acusteve1 wrote: > > I know a Chinese friend of mine who seems pretty reliable & honest who > says he has a friend in Hong Kong who is a monk who he saw with his own eyes > levitate and float down the hallway. (I still would have to see it myself to > believe it if you know what I mean). > I do know what you mean. When I was in China, I had the opportunity to " spar " with a tai chi master there who repeatedly kicked my butt. I was really happy and pleased to see tai chi principles so adeptly applied in the real world. However, while I've been exposed to a lot of magical and mysterious phenomena, I continue to look for the benefits of any particular power such as floating down a hallway. What's the benefit to floating? Avoiding the dirty floor in the hallway? Wouldn't it be easier to just sweep and mop? Showing that the law of gravity doesn't always apply? Didn't those pictures from the space shuttle already address that? A potential therapy for paraplegics? What we tend to do when we see something we consider a mystical power is then apply a universe of other attributes to the experience such as " hence the qing gong master must be very wise and so anything he says I should do... " So-called powers have a way of really undermining the personal development of an individual in that they inflate and weigh-down the ego. Better to walk from one end of the hallway without disturbing what is there. That would be a more significant power in my mind. -- Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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