Is libertarianism a reasonable approach to availability of nutritio...

[Guest guest]

Here is another perspective.

 

There is a dizzying amount of nutritional companies that are well

funded, and backed by well educated nutritionists that are using leading edge

knowledge to produce some very nice products.

Knowledge and money is pouring into research, products and teaching

others why some of the technology works.

 

Given that store owners know people come to the stores to learn rather

than just buy off the Internet, they are hiring fairly well educated staff

these days. I can say this because I travel to a dozen stores and interact with

all the store owners and their staff.

 

It is a very empowering environment out there right now. If you are

Jane Doe and want info about any health issue, you can walk into any of the

smaller stores out there and find people who can actually talk nutrition and

offer perspective.

 

Because the nutritional companies send educators to the stores to inform

the staff of new technology and options for health, many of the staff at

these stores are going to be better educated about what the supplements do and

why you would want to take it than most Dr. and probably many on this list.

(No insults intended with that comment. It's just that I bet a lot of list

members study TCM, not the latest biochemistry news from retail nutritional

companies.)

 

There may well be some level of unscrupulous sales out there, but the

overwhelming majority of smaller stores are selling knowledge, choice and their

are doing it at a level many here would be surprised at.

 

Times have changed. People want knowledge and stores are giving it to

them. This is a GOOOD thing. Personal choice is a good thing.

 

I want nutritional sales sales reps bragging about their products to the

stores. I want people ignited about how they can take responsibility for

their health. I want as much info flying around out there to let people know

there really is a choice other than drugs.

 

Yes, there are going to be people making choices that are not going to

serve them as well as other choices, but I would much rather have someone

choose a lesser holistic supplement than go for a drug any day of the week.

 

IMHO, you cannot effectively shield people from making bad choices. The

Government, especially with all the blatant corruption we have seen, is not

the institution that should be making health choices for the people. They

are not smart enough and they are bought by the drug companies. They have an

agenda that severs people much less than the potential of having some under

educated sales clerk suggesting well labeled products for prostrate or sugar

imbalances or detoxing or what ever.

 

I feel for gullible people. But, IMHO, it is not up to the Government

to dumb down our choices to protect others.

 

Look at the millions of people who die every year from drugs!!!! Look

at the 10 people that die form supplements.

 

Why on earth would anyone want to do anything that gave the poor model

of western preventitive health care any more power at all?

 

Their system is so totally flawed, run by greed and kills so many

people, I feel any energy we spend taking knowledge streams away from lay

people

instead of dealing with the real problem of Western preventative health care,

is a total disservice to people.

 

Yehuda, if you want to talk about unscrupulous, then take a look at the

western model of preventative health care, not the holistic health model. If

you want to be angry at a system and help protect innocent people truly

being maimed and killed by a corrupt system, please put your energy into

helping

make holistic health and education more available through more outlets, not

less. Help put healthy choices into our national health care system, not make

knowledge any more difficult to come by.

 

And that is what I have to say about that,

 

Chris

 

 

 

In a message dated 5/3/2007 5:31:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

writes:

 

Libertarianism is a two edged sword: On the one hand, I believe firmly that

governmental intervention ala " Big Brother " is a very dangerous evil. On the

other hand, I believe that there are too many desperate ignorant people who

gullibly are sold a bill of goods by salespeople, some scrupulous and just

ignorant, and some obscenely unscrupulous. I think, personally that it is

criminal that billions are spent on health and nutrition in the form of

vitamins,

minerals, nutriceuticals and herbs based upon the advise of on line

doctor/advisors who have never once seen their patients or " nutritional

consultants "

who work at health stores, who have maybe read a book or taken a course or two,

often paid for or sponsored by the company selling the product.

 

 

 

 

 

 

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

It's late and I'm tired, but I have a go at trying to answer some of your

questions.

 

First, I am pretty sure we probably have a fundamental difference in our

views on protectionism. I am generally for giving people as much choice as

possible regardless of the potential dangers. I tend to believe in

cautionary labeling like, " We think this product does these wonderful things,

but

we're not totally certain what all the side effects are so take them at your

own

risk. "

 

I believe people should have as much info as possible to make the

decisions they feel are right for their lives.

 

That said, if people go against the recommendations on the labeling and

they get hurt or die from it, that does mean to me that there is something

wrong with the product and it should be taken off the market. That is operator

error and the operator gets to be responsible for the outcome.

 

(Question you asked) Do I think a 18year old sales clerk at the

nutrition store should be able to tell people that the Source Naturals

prostrate

formula is a good one? Yes. Absolutely. Without a doubt in my mind.

 

The costumer always has the option of taking whatever info is presented

and go study for themselves. Learn a more about it and make a decision.

 

I am an AP because I have a passion for helping people, creating balance

and I know there are a bunch of ways to do it. I also know that if I

present a person with a bunch of symptoms to 25 other AP's, I will get a wide

and

varied approach from different practitioners. Which one is right?

 

In every arena in our lives we are given choices to make. We relay on

other people for advice. Some we relay on more than others depending on the

importance of the choice and the amount of time we have to research. But in

the end, we decide which car is " right " for us or which dishwasher or

bathroom fixtures or roofing material.

 

Would you take the word of a 18 year old roofer without question? I

doubt it. Who is going to take the word of an 18 year old kid at a health food

store without question?? Someone who needs a little more common sense.

 

Do I think we should have the option to purchase nutraceuticals on line?

If you definition of nutraceuticals is similar to

_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutraceutical_

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutraceutical) then

absolutly. Functional food and nutrition are both vital to good health. I

really

don't even want to be limited to dosages.

 

The father of a store owner I visit had skin cancer back in the 80's.

His Dr. put him on 1,000,000iu vitamin A per day for two months. Yes, that is

correct and not a typo. He said his Dad's skin turned back 20 years while

on the program and hasn't had a problem since. Was that procedure " Right " ?

Who should tell a person they cannot decide to try something that is out side

the normal bounds of medicine? Who has the right to take my educated choice

out of my hands?

 

How do I feel about people prescribing without seeing the person? It

depends on what is suggeeted and the nature of the issue. If the person is

going for general stuff to improve the fatty acid metabolism, detox and have

some anti-aging supplements thrown in, probably be fine. There are a lot of

safe and generalized nutrition that would help anyone. Someone having

reoccurring migraines and loose stools, probably not.

 

On the other hand, If I had truble and knew someone good who was 100

miles away and I wanted to call them to get some perspective, I would hope

there

was no law in place that would not allow that conversation to happen.

 

I do tend to agree that is in a different category than

most supplements. Most Americans looking at a bottle of " Kreb Enhance " will

understand that it will support the kreb cycle, read about it and make a

decision.

 

Chinese is a whole different ball of wax. Americans typically don't

think Chinese and haven't a clue of what to do with it. There is a really good

possibility that what sounds good in the book will throw them more out of

balance. Some people have incredible aptitude and others have a hard time

figuring out how to open a door. Do we limit peoples choices because some

people

don't have the sense to seek help if they really don't have a clue?

 

Before I went to school, I stood in front of some Chinese Formulas in a

store thinking about taking some. I bought a few bottles, tried them for fun

to see what it would happen. After a couple days, that nagging feeling that

I really had no idea what these things were really about prompted me to

stop, go to something I did understand and take that instead.

 

I do not have any good ideas of how to regulate Chinese formulas without

opening the whole industry up for further regulation. If I thought that by

regulating Chinese herbology, that that act could jeopardize the rest of the

supplement industry, I would tend to want to leave it alone. If there was a

way to safe guard the rest of the industry and make Chinese formulas, AP

only, then I would tend to think that would be a good idea.

 

Your question 6 has in it some pretty strong languaging that reflects

the idea of victimization and what would appear to be your desire to protect

people from being victimized. If that is so, then I personally don't go for

that kind of thinking. I would rather not enable the idea of being a victim of

my own choice. Sure there are pushy people throwing their agenda around as

if we have to relent and do what they say.

 

It's a colorful world out there. What would the world be like without

the humor of Kevin Trudeau? Does everyone beleive everything he writes?

Probably not. How about the 10 calls a day I get about a new morgage? Every

one

of them has the best deal for me. $500,000 morgage for only $1,495/month.

Wow....that sounds good. Should they morgatge companies not offer that

morgage because I might not know that the payments might go up at some point?

 

We live in a world where they prescibe rat poison to millions of people,

yet call Vitamin E dangerous.

 

The question is who am I going to believe. The 18year old clerk at a

health food store who was hired for his passion for nutrition or my Dr. who

wants me on coumadin? Maybe the clerk.

 

I like your comment about helping people make good medical decisions.

Of course, most store clerks don't have a vested interest in what they

recommend to people. They are hourly. Most store owners don't walk the

floors.

Too busy in the back. However, the store owners that I have seen out on the

floor were motivated to help the person the best they could. That means open

access to the best information they had without bias to the product that made

them the most money.

 

Store owners know that if they are open clear, knowable and give good

advice, they will win that costumer for a good long time. If the costumers

feel taken advantage of, they won't come back. It's not in the stores

financial

interest to take advantage of people.

 

Infomercials..........they are like buying from a used car sales man.

Who believes everything they say?

 

I believe we really get to leave the vast majority of responsibility of

choice on the individual. History has shown incredible innovation that comes

with creativity. History also shows some devastation from the sick minded.

 

When the truly perverse dominates over the weak, then we get to

legislate and protect. I definitely don't see that in the retail world of

nutrition.

If we can find ways to isolate Chinese herbals without jeopardizing the

rest of the industry, I would be for it.

 

It would be nice to think the professionally trained would work in

health food stores. I don't think they pay enough to make that happen. I much

prefer the store owners hiring productive people who are free thinkers who

enjoy what they do and like helping others understand why nutrition is

important.

 

 

Besides, what would a government authorized educational facility teach?

12 servings of bread potatoes pasta and other grains and the minimum daily

dose of vitamins? Not for me thank you.

 

I think nutrition gets to stay in the free market and let people decide

for themselves what is " right " for them.

 

Really late now,

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 5/3/2007 10:42:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

writes:

 

Dear Chris,

 

Bravo! I applaud your articulate post and concur with much of what you say.

But let us all consider together some of the issues that I made in light of

your presentation:

 

1. Should any health food store employee be allowed to promote one of the

products that they sell based solely upon what they may have read in a

brochure, without any knowledge of herbs, physiology or biochemistry or without

displaying their credentials for the consumer to read and consider? Should we

differentiate between those who are trained nutritional consultant and those

who

are not?

2. Are you against legalizing comfrey, chapparel, or Ma Huang or Lu Rong for

non-practitioners? If an informed consumer decides to purchase them to use

at his own risk why not, even if they intend to use them in a contraindicated

manner?

3. What is your opinion of purchasing nutraceuticals or herbs on line?

4. What is your opinion about physicians prescribing herbs or formulae for

patients without ever having seen them?

5. Let's apply your model to purchasing ready made formulas in pill form

from Chinatown. Do you feel that they are equivalent to nutraceuticals, or are

the standards governing the dissemination and use of Chinese medicines

different? And if so, is it appropriate for someone with high blood pressure or

pneumonia to ask and be directed to a particular ready made formula in pill

form

because the sales clerk looked in Fratkin's book?

6. What is your feeling about infomercials and websites presenting so called

" authoritative " information about their product, attacking the emotion

weaknesses of the vulnerable consumer rather than presenting objective

information-6. What is your feeling about infomercials and websites presenting

so called

" authoritative " information about their prod

 

I personally think that it is wonderful what we have available to us today,

and never before in history has the consumer had so much available to empower

himself to make his own medical decisions. But let's empower the consumer to

make an informed medical decision not from someone with a subjective vested

interest, not from someone who is an ignoramous yet could seriously damage

someone's health or even cost them their life, yet be completely indemnified

from any recourse against them because they were just employees of a health

store, and were offering their best advise, but rather from someone who is

professionally trained and responsible.

 

I await your response,

 

Sincerely,

 

Yehuda

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Chris,

 

Bravo! I applaud your articulate post and concur with much of what you say.

But let us all consider together some of the issues that I made in light of your

presentation:

 

1. Should any health food store employee be allowed to promote one of the

products that they sell based solely upon what they may have read in a brochure,

without any knowledge of herbs, physiology or biochemistry or without

displaying their credentials for the consumer to read and consider? Should we

differentiate between those who are trained nutritional consultant and those who

are not?

2. Are you against legalizing comfrey, chapparel, or Ma Huang or Lu Rong for

non-practitioners? If an informed consumer decides to purchase them to use at

his own risk why not, even if they intend to use them in a contraindicated

manner?

3. What is your opinion of purchasing nutraceuticals or herbs on line?

4. What is your opinion about physicians prescribing herbs or formulae for

patients without ever having seen them?

5. Let's apply your model to purchasing ready made formulas in pill form from

Chinatown. Do you feel that they are equivalent to nutraceuticals, or are the

standards governing the dissemination and use of Chinese medicines different?

And if so, is it appropriate for someone with high blood pressure or pneumonia

to ask and be directed to a particular ready made formula in pill form because

the sales clerk looked in Fratkin's book?

6. What is your feeling about infomercials and websites presenting so called

" authoritative " information about their product, attacking the emotion

weaknesses of the vulnerable consumer rather than presenting objective

information--just the same way that drug companies do to MDs and advertise in

magazines (eg. " ask your doctor about drugstacy " ) .

 

I personally think that it is wonderful what we have available to us today,

and never before in history has the consumer had so much available to empower

himself to make his own medical decisions. But let's empower the consumer to

make an informed medical decision not from someone with a subjective vested

interest, not from someone who is an ignoramous yet could seriously damage

someone's health or even cost them their life, yet be completely indemnified

from any recourse against them because they were just employees of a health

store, and were offering their best advise, but rather from someone who is

professionally trained and responsible.

 

I await your response,

 

Sincerely,

 

Yehuda

 

Musiclear wrote:

 

 

Here is another perspective.

 

There is a dizzying amount of nutritional companies that are well

funded, and backed by well educated nutritionists that are using leading edge

knowledge to produce some very nice products.

Knowledge and money is pouring into research, products and teaching

others why some of the technology works.

 

Given that store owners know people come to the stores to learn rather

than just buy off the Internet, they are hiring fairly well educated staff

these days. I can say this because I travel to a dozen stores and interact with

all the store owners and their staff.

 

It is a very empowering environment out there right now. If you are

Jane Doe and want info about any health issue, you can walk into any of the

smaller stores out there and find people who can actually talk nutrition and

offer perspective.

 

Because the nutritional companies send educators to the stores to inform

the staff of new technology and options for health, many of the staff at

these stores are going to be better educated about what the supplements do and

why you would want to take it than most Dr. and probably many on this list.

(No insults intended with that comment. It's just that I bet a lot of list

members study TCM, not the latest biochemistry news from retail nutritional

companies.)

 

There may well be some level of unscrupulous sales out there, but the

overwhelming majority of smaller stores are selling knowledge, choice and their

are doing it at a level many here would be surprised at.

 

Times have changed. People want knowledge and stores are giving it to

them. This is a GOOOD thing. Personal choice is a good thing.

 

I want nutritional sales sales reps bragging about their products to the

stores. I want people ignited about how they can take responsibility for

their health. I want as much info flying around out there to let people know

there really is a choice other than drugs.

 

Yes, there are going to be people making choices that are not going to

serve them as well as other choices, but I would much rather have someone

choose a lesser holistic supplement than go for a drug any day of the week.

 

IMHO, you cannot effectively shield people from making bad choices. The

Government, especially with all the blatant corruption we have seen, is not

the institution that should be making health choices for the people. They

are not smart enough and they are bought by the drug companies. They have an

agenda that severs people much less than the potential of having some under

educated sales clerk suggesting well labeled products for prostrate or sugar

imbalances or detoxing or what ever.

 

I feel for gullible people. But, IMHO, it is not up to the Government

to dumb down our choices to protect others.

 

Look at the millions of people who die every year from drugs!!!! Look

at the 10 people that die form supplements.

 

Why on earth would anyone want to do anything that gave the poor model

of western preventitive health care any more power at all?

 

Their system is so totally flawed, run by greed and kills so many

people, I feel any energy we spend taking knowledge streams away from lay people

instead of dealing with the real problem of Western preventative health care,

is a total disservice to people.

 

Yehuda, if you want to talk about unscrupulous, then take a look at the

western model of preventative health care, not the holistic health model. If

you want to be angry at a system and help protect innocent people truly

being maimed and killed by a corrupt system, please put your energy into helping

make holistic health and education more available through more outlets, not

less. Help put healthy choices into our national health care system, not make

knowledge any more difficult to come by.

 

And that is what I have to say about that,

 

Chris

 

 

 

In a message dated 5/3/2007 5:31:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

writes:

 

Libertarianism is a two edged sword: On the one hand, I believe firmly that

governmental intervention ala " Big Brother " is a very dangerous evil. On the

other hand, I believe that there are too many desperate ignorant people who

gullibly are sold a bill of goods by salespeople, some scrupulous and just

ignorant, and some obscenely unscrupulous. I think, personally that it is

criminal that billions are spent on health and nutrition in the form of

vitamins,

minerals, nutriceuticals and herbs based upon the advise of on line

doctor/advisors who have never once seen their patients or " nutritional

consultants "

who work at health stores, who have maybe read a book or taken a course or two,

often paid for or sponsored by the company selling the product.

 

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Chris,

 

Concerning your comment:

 

" Because the nutritional companies send educators to the stores to inform

the staff of new technology and options for health, many of the staff at

these stores are going to be better educated about what the supplements do and

why you would want to take it than most Dr. and probably many on this list.

(No insults intended with that comment. It's just that I bet a lot of list

members study TCM, not the latest biochemistry news from retail nutritional

companies.) "

 

I think that it's important to point out that even when the nutritional

consultants in health food stores are better educated concerning supplements

than we are, we need to ask ourselves that question that keeps resurfacing again

and again: do we treat biomedical conditions or to we determine how our patients

are out of balance. Someone with dyspepsia who goes to a nutritional

consultant at a health food store may be recommended mint. But what if they

have burping, indigestion and other signs of dyspepsia, but they are stomach yin

vacuitous. Would Bo He be helpful, unmodified? I don't think so. I once

treated a patient who went into shock, after being given an antibiotic to treat

pneumonia. The trouble is that she was yang vacuitous and the cold antibiotic

exascerbated an already cold constitution.

 

One point that you allude to which is of critical urgency, is the importance

of us educating ourselves biochemically, both in terms of pharmaceuticals and

nutraceuticals, learning the mechanisms by which they work, what they treat and,

of equal or even greater importance, how they work within the paradigm of

Chinese medicine: determining the channels that they affect as well as the

application of the 8 principles of diagnosis: hot/cold, interior/exterior,

replete/vacuitous and yin/yang.

 

This is real empowerment!

 

Yehuda

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ahhh...imagining that irresistible " new car " smell?

Check outnew cars at Autos.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chris,

 

As you say, we can respectfully agree to disagree. But on what, for me, are

the really important issues, I think we do agree. I'd like to comment on some

of the points you bring up:

 

 

" (Question you asked) Do I think a 18year old sales clerk at the

nutrition store should be able to tell people that the Source Naturals prostrate

formula is a good one? Yes. Absolutely. Without a doubt in my mind. "

 

I actually don't disagree. But I think that two things need to be done to

empower the consumer: 1. Just like with pharmaceutical drugs, which have

inserts, so too health food products should have inserts telling the consumer

what they're buying, what it contains, what dosages are recommended, what the

indications and contraindications are, and what studies if any have been done

relative to the substance or product. 2. The clerk should be required to make it

pretty clear if , or if not she is trained as a nutritionist.

 

 

" Functional food and nutrition are both vital to good health. I really

don't even want to be limited to dosages.

 

The father of a store owner I visit had skin cancer back in the 80's.

His Dr. put him on 1,000,000iu vitamin A per day for two months. Yes, that is

correct and not a typo. He said his Dad's skin turned back 20 years while

on the program and hasn't had a problem since. Was that procedure " Right " ?

Who should tell a person they cannot decide to try something that is out side

the normal bounds of medicine? Who has the right to take my educated choice

out of my hands? "

 

Absolutely, but who was it that told him to take a million units of vit. A?

A physician, not a layperson, who had vision, wisdom and guts, no?

 

" How do I feel about people prescribing without seeing the person? It

depends on what is suggeeted and the nature of the issue. If the person is

going for general stuff to improve the fatty acid metabolism, detox and have

some anti-aging supplements thrown in, probably be fine. There are a lot of

safe and generalized nutrition that would help anyone. Someone having

reoccurring migraines and loose stools, probably not.

 

On the other hand, If I had truble and knew someone good who was 100

miles away and I wanted to call them to get some perspective, I would hope there

was no law in place that would not allow that conversation to happen. "

 

This is the approach that the Rambam (Maimonides) takes as well. He describes

in great detail what to eat and how to conduct oneself in order to maintain good

health. But he adds the stipulation that this is only for someone who isn't

already sick. That person, he says, needs to follow the guidance of a qualified

physician. Yet, in the absence of such a physician, the Rambam says that one

should rely on his protocol and diet.

 

" Chinese is a whole different ball of wax. Americans typically don't

think Chinese and haven't a clue of what to do with it. There is a really good

possibility that what sounds good in the book will throw them more out of

balance. Some people have incredible aptitude and others have a hard time

figuring out how to open a door. Do we limit peoples choices because some people

don't have the sense to seek help if they really don't have a clue?

 

Before I went to school, I stood in front of some Chinese Formulas in a

store thinking about taking some. I bought a few bottles, tried them for fun

to see what it would happen. After a couple days, that nagging feeling that

I really had no idea what these things were really about prompted me to

stop, go to something I did understand and take that instead.

 

I do not have any good ideas of how to regulate Chinese formulas without

opening the whole industry up for further regulation. If I thought that by

regulating Chinese herbology, that that act could jeopardize the rest of the

supplement industry, I would tend to want to leave it alone. If there was a

way to safe guard the rest of the industry and make Chinese formulas, AP

only, then I would tend to think that would be a good idea. "

 

Ah, now we are absolutely on the same page! I'll never forget that I used to

love going down to chinatown with my Naesser book ( I had picked it up at a

health food store!) before I ever began school. I would pick up a few bottles,

experimenting with them based on what I read, sometimes lucked out, and

sometimes not. I was so amazed how medicines that could be so effective,

could be so cheap! So I had an idea, since I figured that most of them were

vegetarian, they would probably be kosher. My idea was to send a Rabbinic

Kosher supervisor I knew, who happens to go to China frequently, and have him

visit the plants producing the medicines in order to certify them kosher. Then

I would relabel them and sell them for a substantial profit to kosher markets

and health food stores that cater to kosher consumers. I decided to first call

my friend in San Diego for his opinion. To paraphrase his words,

" Don't you dare! You need to understand that these

are real medicines, and you could be exposing yourself to tremendous liability

if someone takes them inappropriately and gets sick. " Of course he was right.

 

I must tell you, Chris, that this issue is the key. Our position as licensed

practitioners is very much in flux, but at the same time we are respected to

some degree so as to allow us to access herbs medicinally that others are

prohibited to buy. I think that this issue must take lobbying and tremendous

finesse so as not to antagonize those in the health food and herbal industries

who have been our allies. I am gratified that you can differentiate in this

important issue.

 

 

" Infomercials. ......... they are like buying from a used car sales man.

Who believes everything they say? "

 

You'd be surprised, a lot of people. They make HUGE amounts of money, and

have large audiences watching them.

 

Are we really that far apart? I don't think so. I think that the issues are

more of style than substance. True, I am not at all a libertarian, but I do

believe that if much more were done to empower and educate the health food

consumer, that real informed decision-making in heath could take place. It's

hard to now, and much as with capitalism if you are strong, you are aggresive,

you are focused and you are persistant you will succeed. But not everyone is

that way. That's why so many fail in business. You believe, that " if you're

not prepared to do the reseach, tough luck. " I feel that life is difficult,

complicated and overwhelming enough for many, so let's help them and protect

them. But we both agree that Chinese medicine is different. Let's hope the day

comes when we are able to police ourselves, have Chinese medicines only

available to properly educated, universally offer safe quality herbal products,

and get rid of the poor quality products that flood

the market from China,

 

Yehuda

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ahhh...imagining that irresistible " new car " smell?

Check outnew cars at Autos.