Is libertarianism a reasonable approach to availability of nutri

[Guest guest]

Yehuda and Chris,

 

I read your discussion with great interest. While I watched each of you find a

place of agreement I tended to find Chris' arguments more closely aligned with

my own positions. However, there was a point that you both agreed on that I find

very disturbing, so I ask you this question: What makes Chinese herbs or

formulas any different form any other herbs or formulas?

 

I eagerly await your answers.

 

Thomas

 

 

 

Honolulu, HI

 

www.sourcepointherbs.org

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thomas,

 

Of course, there is no difference between Chinese and any other herbs, but

the issue is when they are used as elements in formulae to treat with

principles of Chinese herbal formulation and formula hierarchy. You will

recall that in my exchange with Chris I asked about Chaparral and Comfrey, and

equated them with Ma Huang and Lu Rong. It is my understanding that the latter

we are able to access, whereas the former we cannot. I feel very strongly that

this status quo is absurd, but how do we change it? Ultimately and ideally I

favor two parallel tracks: Western pharmaceutical prescriptions written by MDs

and filled in Western Pharmacies as is done now regulated by the FDA, and herbs

and formulas used in , to be regulated by a separate independent

agency, which would also obviously give us access to other global herbs as well.

In light of Todd's valid objection that though he is no longer practicing, he

still should have access, obviously the issues

of dissemination and access need to be carefully studied.

 

Yehuda

 

wrote:

Yehuda and Chris,

 

I read your discussion with great interest. While I watched each of you find a

place of agreement I tended to find Chris' arguments more closely aligned with

my own positions. However, there was a point that you both agreed on that I find

very disturbing, so I ask you this question: What makes Chinese herbs or

formulas any different form any other herbs or formulas?

 

I eagerly await your answers.

 

Thomas

 

 

Honolulu, HI

 

www.sourcepointherbs.org

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Thomas,

 

The reason I am suggesting the possibility of separating Chinese herbal

formulas from the rest of the herbal combinations has to do with the

difference in the way the classical formulas are prescribed compared to the

typical

western formulas.

 

Most western herbal formulas are prescribed to treat simple symptoms

rather than patterns as in Chinese medicine. I find the way most herbal

combinations in the US to be labeled and formulated to be rather simple and

well

within the reach of the typical western mind.

 

The proper treatments of patterns takes years to understand and

prescribe with consistency. The very nature of pattern differentiation is way

off

the practical understanding of most Americans so the chances of making a

correct diagnosis with traditional Chinese formulas is rather slim. This could

cause a lot of people a lot of problems if they give it a try and fail.

 

I believe keeping the classical formulas out of the hands of the retail

market should be responsibility of the distributors and not the government.

Given the way the classical formulas were intended to be prescribed, I don't

see how the distributors can assume they will be used correctly and without

harm.

 

Fortunalty right now, the Chinese herbal market is relatively small so

there are likely to be relatively low numbers of real problems reported by

inappropriate use of the formulas.

 

As time goes on, the use will likely go up and I would expect to see

more reports of problems which could spell trouble for the whole herbal

industry.

 

I would hope that the distributors exercise restrain in who they give

access to these formulas, but it seems they have put long term safety and

common sense out the window to improve short term profits.

 

It is a shame to me. Problems will be reported and it may put our

industry in a really bad light.

 

All the best,

 

Chris

 

 

 

In a message dated 5/5/2007 4:25:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

writes:

 

Yehuda and Chris,

 

I read your discussion with great interest. While I watched each of you find

a place of agreement I tended to find Chris' arguments more closely aligned

with my own positions. However, there was a point that you both agreed on

that I find very disturbing, so I ask you this question: What makes Chinese

herbs or formulas any different form any other herbs or formulas?

 

I eagerly await your answers.

 

Thomas

 

Thomas Avery Garran, Herbalist, MTOM, L.Ac.

Honolulu, HI

_thomas@sourcepoinththomas@s_ ()

www.sourcepointherbwww.s

 

 

 

 

 

 

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I would agree with Chris,

 

Yehuda

 

Musiclear wrote:

 

 

Hi Thomas,

 

The reason I am suggesting the possibility of separating Chinese herbal

formulas from the rest of the herbal combinations has to do with the

difference in the way the classical formulas are prescribed compared to the

typical

western formulas.

 

Most western herbal formulas are prescribed to treat simple symptoms

rather than patterns as in Chinese medicine. I find the way most herbal

combinations in the US to be labeled and formulated to be rather simple and well

within the reach of the typical western mind.

 

The proper treatments of patterns takes years to understand and

prescribe with consistency. The very nature of pattern differentiation is way

off

the practical understanding of most Americans so the chances of making a

correct diagnosis with traditional Chinese formulas is rather slim. This could

cause a lot of people a lot of problems if they give it a try and fail.

 

I believe keeping the classical formulas out of the hands of the retail

market should be responsibility of the distributors and not the government.

Given the way the classical formulas were intended to be prescribed, I don't

see how the distributors can assume they will be used correctly and without

harm.

 

Fortunalty right now, the Chinese herbal market is relatively small so

there are likely to be relatively low numbers of real problems reported by

inappropriate use of the formulas.

 

As time goes on, the use will likely go up and I would expect to see

more reports of problems which could spell trouble for the whole herbal

industry.

 

I would hope that the distributors exercise restrain in who they give

access to these formulas, but it seems they have put long term safety and

common sense out the window to improve short term profits.

 

It is a shame to me. Problems will be reported and it may put our

industry in a really bad light.

 

All the best,

 

Chris

 

 

 

In a message dated 5/5/2007 4:25:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

writes:

 

Yehuda and Chris,

 

I read your discussion with great interest. While I watched each of you find

a place of agreement I tended to find Chris' arguments more closely aligned

with my own positions. However, there was a point that you both agreed on

that I find very disturbing, so I ask you this question: What makes Chinese

herbs or formulas any different form any other herbs or formulas?

 

I eagerly await your answers.

 

Thomas

 

 

Honolulu, HI

_thomas@sourcepoinththomas@s_ ()

www.sourcepointherbwww.s

 

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yehuda, Chris, all,

 

I disagree! Patterns are made up of a complex of symptoms (and signs) that

cause a " disease " or illness, such as headache. If the label says something

like: for headache with red eyes, pain in the vertex, etc. then I think anyone

with half a brain can understand the difference between this and headache with

pain around the temples and stuffiness in the chest, etc.

 

I also disagree when you say that Western herbal formulas are more simple than

Chinese formulas, this is simply pure bias. Do you have training in Western

herbal medicine that would lead you to such conclusions? The jargon is

different, and I don't think the methodology is always as clear, but the end

result is the same. Western herbalists don't always recognize a connection

between some of the symptoms that Chinese herbalist put together in a pattern to

form a diagnosis, but their formulation ends up being remarkably similar, they

just use different plants, thus different formula. Furthermore, they often use

information we are not trained to use or simply chose not to use, which can add

remarkable depth to their formulation.

 

BTW: Last time I checked chaparral and comfry were still available, although

they have to be labeled " for external use only. "

 

Thomas

 

 

 

Honolulu, HI

 

www.sourcepointherbs.org

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Thomas,

I would agree with you if the Chinese labeling were changed to incorporate

easy to understand symptoms, that would make the choice of product easier for

the masses.

However, it is my belief that many of our long standing traditional formulas

would get to be redesigned for ease of prescription for untrained people.

For example, in any of our health food stores, we have a number of western

prostate formulas to choose from. Most of them are going to have herbs that

specifically down regulate the aromatase and 5-alpha reductase enzymes to slow

down the conversion of testosterone to estrogens and dihydrotestosterone.

More complete formulas will have selenium and zinc as it has been found that

the prostate normally has higher concentrations of these nutrients in a

healthy state.

How does Traditional treat prostate issues? First off....

as many here will point out, we don't. We treat patterns. A typical

pattern may be damp heat with some other adjunct diagnosis like phlegm or chi

stagnation. How do those herbs affect the enzymes the western model

specifically

treats? I don't know. I haven't researched it, but I bet the references are

going to be slim, if there are any.

What am I saying here? If we go through history of western herbs, it is

easy to see traditional uses of herbs specific symptoms. IE Prostate,

headaches, menses issues, menopause, ect ect ect.

I don't believe that is the case with Chinese herbs as the bias has always

been patterns.

Is it right to assume that we can take the Classical formulas, change the

labeling from a more general description of patterns and label them for

prostate, or liver support or digestion? Some formulas may already support

specific glands or organs and may be appropriately labeled that way, but I

believe

most will not.

It is more likely that in order to support easy to understand labeling, the

formulas will get to be reoriented for specific organ or gland support.

For example, this morning I searched and went to _www.chineseherb.com_

(http://www.chineseherb.com/) . There, I found they have a specifically

labeled

prostate formula. That is all well and good, a formula designed for that

ailment. Then I went to digestion. There I found 28 different formulas for

digestion. All with classical descriptions. There is no way in Gods green

earth that without a long term study, anybody is going to make sense of that.

Take Gui Pi Wan as an example. It says in the description, " Classical

prescription to use for fatigue with night sweating, palpitations, poor memory,

restlessness, insomnia, or restless dreaming. Strengthens poor digestion. "

The common western mind is going to typically say, " Wow, this is good for

memory. I need this. "

I know this because when I started out..... I did that. Most of my class at

A.T.O.M. noticed that as we read the classical prescriptions, we all needed

virtually all of the formulas. Of course that was not the case, but it

serves to illustrate the idea that there is no way that people are going to

understand the nuances of traditional prescription methodology without lots of

training.

This does not mean that I support all herbal remedies be practitioner only.

However, Traditional Chinese medicine is a system all unto its own and it

may be prudent to separate out. If, and only if by doing so we do not

interfere with the rest of the herb and nutritional product lines that are

designed

and labeled for more specific symptomology.

I believe the prostate formula based on Chinese herbs, is labeled to be

easily understood and as long as it actually helps the prostate should be

allowed.

In the west, our medicine is based on “folk†medicine. Most " folk " get it,

understand it and use it effectively.

I believe traditional Chinese medicine has been primarily in the hands of

the Doctors as it is a much more complex system that takes trained people to see

and understand nuances that the untrained will miss.

To add to that last point, let’s remember how many times we have seen

discussions between well trained practitioners who disagree with the diagnosis

of

another.

Many blessing to you,

Chris

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 5/7/2007 4:48:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

writes:

 

Yehuda, Chris, all,

 

I disagree! Patterns are made up of a complex of symptoms (and signs) that

cause a " disease " or illness, such as headache. If the label says something

like: for headache with red eyes, pain in the vertex, etc. then I think anyone

with half a brain can understand the difference between this and headache

with pain around the temples and stuffiness in the chest, etc.

 

I also disagree when you say that Western herbal formulas are more simple

than Chinese formulas, this is simply pure bias. Do you have training in

Western herbal medicine that would lead you to such conclusions? The jargon is

different, and I don't think the methodology is always as clear, but the end

result is the same. Western herbalists don't always recognize a connection

between some of the symptoms that Chinese herbalist put together in a pattern

to

form a diagnosis, but their formulation ends up being remarkably similar, they

just use different plants, thus different formula. Furthermore, they often

use information we are not trained to use or simply chose not to use, which can

add remarkable depth to their formulation.

 

BTW: Last time I checked chaparral and comfry were still available, although

they have to be labeled " for external use only. "

 

Thomas

 

, L.Ac.

Honolulu, HI

_thomas@sourcepoinththomas@s_ ()

www.sourcepointherbwww.s

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.