update on qian ceng ta - jin bu huan?

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

 

Just wanted to mention that if Qian Ceng Ta really is Jin Bu

Huan/Stephania sinica herb, there have been some cases of toxicity

associated with this herb. Here is some research I dug up a while back

on Jin Bu Huan.

 

Take care,

 

 

Jin Bu Huan naturally contains the chemical alkaloid

tetrahydropalmatine. Most patients will not have any noticeable

reaction to tetrahydropalmatine, however, in a small number of cases,

patients can be very sensitive to it. Such individuals can experience

negative side-effects such as nausea, vertigo, fatigue, fever,

jaundice, even acute hepatitis [1] and/or rapid onset of central

nervous system and respiratory depression [2], with such symptoms as

rapid heart rate, palpitations, shortness of breath, or heavy

sensation in chest.

 

Upon further investigation, expert advisors informed me that even

patients who are not particularly sensitive to this substance may

eventually exhibit the same reactions if enough tetrahydropalmatine

builds up in their bodies. Specifically, side-effects may appear if a

patient takes a product containing Jin Bu Huan for a prolonged period

of time, which depending upon the individual could be a couple of

weeks to a few months of daily use.

 

Although the reactions are temporary, and disappear when discontinued,

the risk of some patients developing these unpleasant side effects is

something to consider in terms of patient safety.

 

 

*Jin Bu Huan/Stephania sinica herb*

According to Traditional materia medicas, Jin bu

huan/Stephania sinica herb is bitter and cold, and has an affinity for

the Lung and Stomach channels. It Clears Heat and Resolves Toxins,

Strengthens the Stomach and Stops Pain, Eliminates Stasis and

Disperses Swelling. It was traditionally a minor Clear Heat Toxin

herb, used in the treatment of toxic swellings, insect bites, throat

pain, mouth and tongue sores, vomiting, diarrhea, dysentery, toothache

and stomach pain, as well as injuries due to trauma.[4 & 5]

 

It has also been used extensively in modern times for its ability to

invigorate the Blood [6], calm the Shen and promote sleep, because in

its concentrated form, Jin bu huan acts as a sedative. The old version

of An Shui Wan and the old patent Jin Bu Huan Anodyne Tablets both

contained Jin Bu Huan concentrated extract as a sedative and to

promote sleep.

 

*More information about tetrahydropalmatine*

In laboratory research, tetrahydropalmatine [7] has been shown to

exhibit a wide number of pharmacological actions on the central

nervous system, including analgesic and sedative effects.[8] dl-THP

has been found to exhibit a tranquilizing action in mice. Scientists

have suggested that dl-THP blocks certain receptor sites (e.g.,

dopamine) in the brain to cause sedation. [8] Some human clinical

trials on dl-THP have shown the ability to fall asleep was improved in

people suffering from insomnia after taking 100–200 mg of dl-THP at

bedtime. Patients taking the alkaloid extract reported no drug

hangover symptoms such as morning grogginess, dizziness or vertigo. [9]

 

In addition to their central nervous system effects,

tetrahydropalmatine also has cardiovascular actions. For example,

dl-THP has been shown to both decrease the stickiness of platelets and

protect against stroke,[10] as well as lower blood pressure and heart

rate in animal studies.[11] Additionally, it seems to exert an

anti-arrhythmic action on the heart. This was found in a small double

blind clinical trial with patients suffering from a specific type of

heart arrhythmia (e.g., supra-ventricular premature beat or SVPB).[12]

People taking 300–600 mg of dl-THP per day in tablet form had

significantly greater improvement than those taking placebo pills.

 

 

1 Kaptchuk TJ, Woolf GM, Vierling JM. Acute hepatitis associated with

Jin Bu Huan. Ann Int Med 1995;122:636.

2 Shaffer, M. Jin Bu Huan Herbal Tablets. U.S. Department of Health

and Human Services, Food and Drug Administration's website

http://www.fda.gov/ article T94-22, April 15, 1994.

3 Bensky D, Gamble A. Materia Medica, Revised

Edition, Seattle, WA: Eastland Press, Inc., 1993, 390-1 and 407-8.

4 Editing Committee of the National Authority.

Chinese Herbal Materia Medica. China: Shanghai Science and Technology

Publishing Co., 1999, 1982-1983.

5 New Medical College of Jiang Su, The Great Dictionary of Chinese

Medicine, Hong Kong: Shanghai Science and Technology Publishing Co.,

1979, 2854-2857.

6 Flaws B. 160 Essential Chinese Herbal Patent Medicines. Boulder, CO:

Blue Poppy Press, 1999, 152-3.

7 dl-Tetrahydropalmatine is the same chemical as tetrahydropalmatine.

The dl form is the racemic mixtures of the steroisomers. DL stands

for dextrorotatory (+) and levorotatory (-) form of the salt.

8 Zhu YP. Chinese Materia Media: Chemistry, Pharmacology, and

Applications. Australia: Harwood Academic Publishers, 1998, 445–8.

9 Chang HM, But PPH. Pharmacology and Applications of Chinese Materia

Medica vol 1. Singapore: World Scientific Inc., 1986, 521.

10 Hsu HY. Oriental Materia Medica: A Concise Guide. Long Beach, CA:

Oriental Healing Arts Institute, 1986, 448–50.

11 Zhu YP. Chinese Materia Media: Chemistry, Pharmacology, and

Applications. Australia: Harwood Academic Publishers, 1998, 445–8.

12 Xiaolin N, Zhenhua H, Xin M, et al. Clinical and experimental study

of dl-tetrahydropalmatine effect in the treatment of supraventricular

arrhythmia. J Xi'An Med Univ 1998;10:150–3.

 

 

4d. Re: update on qian ceng ta

Posted by: " Christine Chang " panasiaintl panasiaintl

Mon Jun 4, 2007 11:31 pm (PST)

Thanks Doug for correctiong, please always do that for me..

 

BTW, qian ceng ta has other names: like jin bu huan (gold can't

change), da bu si (never die by hitting)

 

whole plant cooks with meat for internal injury, or whole plant can be

external application.

 

CC

 

 

 

Christine W Chang, DAOM, LAc.,

BOD & Herbal Medicine Committee

(AAAOM)

American Association of Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine

310-951-8698 (cell)

 

" I think, therefore I am. "

 

 

 

 

Monday, June 4, 2007 5:45:50 PM

Re: update on qian ceng ta

 

Christine, I think you meant depending on...

doug

 

, Christine Chang

<panasiaintl@ ...> wrote:

>

> Deplaned on raw herb or concentrated powder

>

> only mention 10-30g whole plant for trauma or bleeding issue on the

book; but Alzheimer's is a new study..

>

> Christine

>

> Christine W Chang, DAOM, LAc.,

> BOD & Chair of Herbal Medicine Committee

> (AAAOM)

> American Association of Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine

> 310-951-8698 (cell)

>

> " I think, therefore I am. "

>

[Guest guest]

tetrahydropalmatine

>>>>>>Are you sure this is not yan hu so?

Alon

 

berkeleytcm <laurastropes wrote:

Hi all,

 

Just wanted to mention that if Qian Ceng Ta really is Jin Bu

Huan/Stephania sinica herb, there have been some cases of toxicity

associated with this herb. Here is some research I dug up a while back

on Jin Bu Huan.

 

Take care,

 

 

Jin Bu Huan naturally contains the chemical alkaloid

tetrahydropalmatine. Most patients will not have any noticeable

reaction to tetrahydropalmatine, however, in a small number of cases,

patients can be very sensitive to it. Such individuals can experience

negative side-effects such as nausea, vertigo, fatigue, fever,

jaundice, even acute hepatitis [1] and/or rapid onset of central

nervous system and respiratory depression [2], with such symptoms as

rapid heart rate, palpitations, shortness of breath, or heavy

sensation in chest.

 

Upon further investigation, expert advisors informed me that even

patients who are not particularly sensitive to this substance may

eventually exhibit the same reactions if enough tetrahydropalmatine

builds up in their bodies. Specifically, side-effects may appear if a

patient takes a product containing Jin Bu Huan for a prolonged period

of time, which depending upon the individual could be a couple of

weeks to a few months of daily use.

 

Although the reactions are temporary, and disappear when discontinued,

the risk of some patients developing these unpleasant side effects is

something to consider in terms of patient safety.

 

*Jin Bu Huan/Stephania sinica herb*

According to Traditional materia medicas, Jin bu

huan/Stephania sinica herb is bitter and cold, and has an affinity for

the Lung and Stomach channels. It Clears Heat and Resolves Toxins,

Strengthens the Stomach and Stops Pain, Eliminates Stasis and

Disperses Swelling. It was traditionally a minor Clear Heat Toxin

herb, used in the treatment of toxic swellings, insect bites, throat

pain, mouth and tongue sores, vomiting, diarrhea, dysentery, toothache

and stomach pain, as well as injuries due to trauma.[4 & 5]

 

It has also been used extensively in modern times for its ability to

invigorate the Blood [6], calm the Shen and promote sleep, because in

its concentrated form, Jin bu huan acts as a sedative. The old version

of An Shui Wan and the old patent Jin Bu Huan Anodyne Tablets both

contained Jin Bu Huan concentrated extract as a sedative and to

promote sleep.

 

*More information about tetrahydropalmatine*

In laboratory research, tetrahydropalmatine [7] has been shown to

exhibit a wide number of pharmacological actions on the central

nervous system, including analgesic and sedative effects.[8] dl-THP

has been found to exhibit a tranquilizing action in mice. Scientists

have suggested that dl-THP blocks certain receptor sites (e.g.,

dopamine) in the brain to cause sedation. [8] Some human clinical

trials on dl-THP have shown the ability to fall asleep was improved in

people suffering from insomnia after taking 100–200 mg of dl-THP at

bedtime. Patients taking the alkaloid extract reported no drug

hangover symptoms such as morning grogginess, dizziness or vertigo. [9]

 

In addition to their central nervous system effects,

tetrahydropalmatine also has cardiovascular actions. For example,

dl-THP has been shown to both decrease the stickiness of platelets and

protect against stroke,[10] as well as lower blood pressure and heart

rate in animal studies.[11] Additionally, it seems to exert an

anti-arrhythmic action on the heart. This was found in a small double

blind clinical trial with patients suffering from a specific type of

heart arrhythmia (e.g., supra-ventricular premature beat or SVPB).[12]

People taking 300–600 mg of dl-THP per day in tablet form had

significantly greater improvement than those taking placebo pills.

 

1 Kaptchuk TJ, Woolf GM, Vierling JM. Acute hepatitis associated with

Jin Bu Huan. Ann Int Med 1995;122:636.

2 Shaffer, M. Jin Bu Huan Herbal Tablets. U.S. Department of Health

and Human Services, Food and Drug Administration's website

http://www.fda.gov/ article T94-22, April 15, 1994.

3 Bensky D, Gamble A. Materia Medica, Revised

Edition, Seattle, WA: Eastland Press, Inc., 1993, 390-1 and 407-8.

4 Editing Committee of the National Authority.

Chinese Herbal Materia Medica. China: Shanghai Science and Technology

Publishing Co., 1999, 1982-1983.

5 New Medical College of Jiang Su, The Great Dictionary of Chinese

Medicine, Hong Kong: Shanghai Science and Technology Publishing Co.,

1979, 2854-2857.

6 Flaws B. 160 Essential Chinese Herbal Patent Medicines. Boulder, CO:

Blue Poppy Press, 1999, 152-3.

7 dl-Tetrahydropalmatine is the same chemical as tetrahydropalmatine.

The dl form is the racemic mixtures of the steroisomers. DL stands

for dextrorotatory (+) and levorotatory (-) form of the salt.

8 Zhu YP. Chinese Materia Media: Chemistry, Pharmacology, and

Applications. Australia: Harwood Academic Publishers, 1998, 445–8.

9 Chang HM, But PPH. Pharmacology and Applications of Chinese Materia

Medica vol 1. Singapore: World Scientific Inc., 1986, 521.

10 Hsu HY. Oriental Materia Medica: A Concise Guide. Long Beach, CA:

Oriental Healing Arts Institute, 1986, 448–50.

11 Zhu YP. Chinese Materia Media: Chemistry, Pharmacology, and

Applications. Australia: Harwood Academic Publishers, 1998, 445–8.

12 Xiaolin N, Zhenhua H, Xin M, et al. Clinical and experimental study

of dl-tetrahydropalmatine effect in the treatment of supraventricular

arrhythmia. J Xi'An Med Univ 1998;10:150–3.

 

4d. Re: update on qian ceng ta

Posted by: " Christine Chang " panasiaintl panasiaintl

Mon Jun 4, 2007 11:31 pm (PST)

Thanks Doug for correctiong, please always do that for me..

 

BTW, qian ceng ta has other names: like jin bu huan (gold can't

change), da bu si (never die by hitting)

 

whole plant cooks with meat for internal injury, or whole plant can be

external application.

 

CC

 

Christine W Chang, DAOM, LAc.,

BOD & Herbal Medicine Committee

(AAAOM)

American Association of Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine

310-951-8698 (cell)

 

" I think, therefore I am. "

 

 

 

 

Monday, June 4, 2007 5:45:50 PM

Re: update on qian ceng ta

 

Christine, I think you meant depending on...

doug

 

, Christine Chang

<panasiaintl@ ...> wrote:

>

> Deplaned on raw herb or concentrated powder

>

> only mention 10-30g whole plant for trauma or bleeding issue on the

book; but Alzheimer's is a new study..

>

> Christine

>

> Christine W Chang, DAOM, LAc.,

> BOD & Chair of Herbal Medicine Committee

> (AAAOM)

> American Association of Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine

> 310-951-8698 (cell)

>

> " I think, therefore I am. "

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Qian Ceng Ta (Huperzia serrata)

 

Yan Hu Suo (corydalis yanhusuo)

 

Jin Bu Huan (Casia siamea) (chapparal) banned in U.S. due to hepatotoxicity

 

 

dr.w

[Guest guest]

Jin Bu Huan isn't Chaparral. Chaparral is Larrea tridentata.

 

The controversy over Jin Bu Huan occurred when a product labeled as Jin Bu

Huan actually contained pure tetrahydropalmatine. It was being sold in

health food stores as a treatment for insomnia. From the effects, it was

obviously a drug. People would fall asleep immediately, only to wake up two

hours later. In one case, a woman passed out in one of the health food

stores. This stuff was bad news, so we're lucky that it's not still around.

 

- Bill

 

.............................................

Bill Schoenbart, L.Ac.

P.O. Box 8099

Santa Cruz, CA 95061

 

office phone: 831-335-3165

email: plantmed

.............................................

 

 

>>>Qian Ceng Ta (Huperzia serrata)

 

Yan Hu Suo (corydalis yanhusuo)

 

Jin Bu Huan (Casia siamea) (chapparal) banned in U.S. due to hepatotoxicity

 

dr.w>>>>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I know it's not funny bit I had to laugh.... What if all the health

food store supplements worked immediately... Liver Flush, Intestinal

Cleanse, Virility Plus etc...

Doug

 

 

From the effects, it was

> obviously a drug. People would fall asleep immediately, only to wake

up two

> hours later. In one case, a woman passed out in one of the health food

> stores. This stuff was bad news, so we're lucky that it's not still

around.

>

> - Bill

>

> ............................................

> Bill Schoenbart, L.Ac.

> P.O. Box 8099

> Santa Cruz, CA 95061

>

> office phone: 831-335-3165

> email: plantmed

> ............................................

>

>

> >>>Qian Ceng Ta (Huperzia serrata)

>

> Yan Hu Suo (corydalis yanhusuo)

>

> Jin Bu Huan (Casia siamea) (chapparal) banned in U.S. due to

hepatotoxicity

>

> dr.w>>>>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Seems to me the main reason it was removed from the market was

supposed liver toxicity with prolonged use. Has anyone seen any way

to quantify this? For example, in comparison with acetaminophen,

whose entry into the general market was delayed for years because it

was deemed too toxic.

 

Jin bu huan is short-acting, therefore one might wake after 2 hours.

Without druggy aftereffects. Obviously not for chronic use. But

neither is Tylenol, which is sometimes used chronically, though more

public education on this may somewhat have reduced abuse (?).

 

Just a question about a possible imponderable,

Ann

 

 

On Jun 8, 2007, at 1:22 AM, Bill Schoenbart wrote:

 

> Jin Bu Huan isn't Chaparral. Chaparral is Larrea tridentata.

>

> The controversy over Jin Bu Huan occurred when a product labeled as

> Jin Bu

> Huan actually contained pure tetrahydropalmatine. It was being sold in

> health food stores as a treatment for insomnia. From the effects,

> it was

> obviously a drug. People would fall asleep immediately, only to

> wake up two

> hours later. In one case, a woman passed out in one of the health food

> stores. This stuff was bad news, so we're lucky that it's not still

> around.

>

> - Bill

>

> ............................................

> Bill Schoenbart, L.Ac.

> P.O. Box 8099

> Santa Cruz, CA 95061

>

> office phone: 831-335-3165

> email: plantmed

> ............................................

>

> >>>Qian Ceng Ta (Huperzia serrata)

>

> Yan Hu Suo (corydalis yanhusuo)

>

> Jin Bu Huan (Casia siamea) (chapparal) banned in U.S. due to

> hepatotoxicity

>

> dr.w>>>>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the clarification Bill.

I realized after I posted that jin bu huan was not chaparral. Now that

that's clear, do you have any insights as to the safety/efficacy of

qian ceng ta as a memory supplement compared to the huperzine

products?

 

dr.w

[Guest guest]

Here's an article on the topic:

 

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00022295.htm

 

- Bill

 

 

, A Brameier

<snakeoil.works wrote:

>

> Seems to me the main reason it was removed from the market was

> supposed liver toxicity with prolonged use. Has anyone seen any

way

> to quantify this? For example, in comparison with acetaminophen,

> whose entry into the general market was delayed for years because

it

> was deemed too toxic.

>

> Jin bu huan is short-acting, therefore one might wake after 2

hours.

> Without druggy aftereffects. Obviously not for chronic use. But

> neither is Tylenol, which is sometimes used chronically, though

more

> public education on this may somewhat have reduced abuse (?).

>

> Just a question about a possible imponderable,

> Ann

>

[Guest guest]

tetrahydropalmatine

>>>>>>

This is one of the alkaloids in yan hu so not jin gu huan. It has abuse

potential

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

Bill Schoenbart

Thursday, June 07, 2007 10:22 PM

Re: update on qian ceng ta - jin bu huan?

 

 

Jin Bu Huan isn't Chaparral. Chaparral is Larrea tridentata.

 

The controversy over Jin Bu Huan occurred when a product labeled as Jin Bu

Huan actually contained pure tetrahydropalmatine. It was being sold in

health food stores as a treatment for insomnia. From the effects, it was

obviously a drug. People would fall asleep immediately, only to wake up two

hours later. In one case, a woman passed out in one of the health food

stores. This stuff was bad news, so we're lucky that it's not still around.

 

- Bill

 

............................................

Bill Schoenbart, L.Ac.

P.O. Box 8099

Santa Cruz, CA 95061

 

office phone: 831-335-3165

email: plantmed

............................................

 

>>>Qian Ceng Ta (Huperzia serrata)

 

Yan Hu Suo (corydalis yanhusuo)

 

Jin Bu Huan (Casia siamea) (chapparal) banned in U.S. due to hepatotoxicity

 

dr.w>>>>

 

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

 

True, Jin Bu Huan/Stephania sinica herb did come to the community's

attention when Jin Bu Huan Anodyne products were found to contain

almost pure tetrahydropalmatine. Actually, a couple of people I went

to school with in New Mexico ended up in the hospital after taking too

much of it.

 

Everyone assumed that the plant Jin Bu Huan, when used traditionally,

was still safe. However, when you make a concentrated extract of Jin

Bu Huan you will end up with a high amount of tetrahydropalmatine,

which if administered for several months (as patients will want to do

with an effective insomnia formula!), can induce hepatitis or central

nervous system and respiratory depression in sensitive individuals. I

do not know for sure whether the chemical comes out into a water

decoction, but unless that could be determined, I would even be

careful when giving a decoction of Jin Bu Huan for more than a few weeks.

 

Alon asked whether I meant Yan hu suo, and actually both Yan Hu Suo

and Jin Bu Huan contain tetrahydropalmatine, but I believe Yan Hu Suo

contains it in smaller amounts. I would have to look it up again to

know for sure. Also, as we assume that Yan Hu Suo wouldn't be

administered in large doses daily over the course of several months,

the chances of it causing an allergic reaction would be much less.

Although it is a good thing to have in mind if prescribing larger

doses of Yan hu suo for longer than a few weeks at a time. Has anyone

had patients who experienced any of these types of reactions when

prescribing Yan hu suo?

 

However, if tetrahydropalmatine only comes out in an alcohol

extraction, or a water/alcohol mix, then we wouldn't need to worry

about decoctions. I'll try to find out.

 

Thanks,

Laura

 

, " Bill Schoenbart "

<plantmed2 wrote:

>

> Jin Bu Huan isn't Chaparral. Chaparral is Larrea tridentata.

>

> The controversy over Jin Bu Huan occurred when a product labeled as

Jin Bu

> Huan actually contained pure tetrahydropalmatine. It was being sold in

> health food stores as a treatment for insomnia. From the effects, it was

> obviously a drug. People would fall asleep immediately, only to wake

up two

> hours later. In one case, a woman passed out in one of the health food

> stores. This stuff was bad news, so we're lucky that it's not still

around.

>

> - Bill

>

> ............................................

> Bill Schoenbart, L.Ac.

> P.O. Box 8099

> Santa Cruz, CA 95061

>

> office phone: 831-335-3165

> email: plantmed

> ............................................

>

>

> >>>Qian Ceng Ta (Huperzia serrata)

>

> Yan Hu Suo (corydalis yanhusuo)

>

> Jin Bu Huan (Casia siamea) (chapparal) banned in U.S. due to

hepatotoxicity

>

> dr.w>>>>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jin bu huan was a big thing back in the early 80's. But I remember

one of my assistants in my Denver clinic taking a dose for menstrual

cramps, lying down on the floor, and was so groggy she couldn't drive

herself home for six hours. I used it myself when I had shoulder

pain once, went to bed and woke up a few hours later with

palpitations, unable to breathe. I almost took myself to the

emergency room, but was able to needle points to restore myself to

sanity.

 

The next day, I mentioned what happened to me to Ted Kaptchuk, who

was teaching at PCOM at the time, and he basically told me I had

poisoned myself with a crude drug.

 

A few years later, a child died in Denver after taking Jin Bu Huan

tablets.

 

I haven't gotten close to any product that is not properly labeled

ever since. . .

 

 

On Jun 7, 2007, at 10:22 PM, Bill Schoenbart wrote:

 

> Jin Bu Huan isn't Chaparral. Chaparral is Larrea tridentata.

>

> The controversy over Jin Bu Huan occurred when a product labeled as

> Jin Bu

> Huan actually contained pure tetrahydropalmatine. It was being sold in

> health food stores as a treatment for insomnia. From the effects,

> it was

> obviously a drug. People would fall asleep immediately, only to

> wake up two

> hours later. In one case, a woman passed out in one of the health food

> stores. This stuff was bad news, so we're lucky that it's not still

> around.

>

> - Bill

>

> ............................................

> Bill Schoenbart, L.Ac.

> P.O. Box 8099

> Santa Cruz, CA 95061

>

> office phone: 831-335-3165

> email: plantmed

> ............................................

>

> >>>Qian Ceng Ta (Huperzia serrata)

>

> Yan Hu Suo (corydalis yanhusuo)

>

> Jin Bu Huan (Casia siamea) (chapparal) banned in U.S. due to

> hepatotoxicity

>

> dr.w>>>>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Laura

Yin Hu So Su is tetrahydropalmatine, it became illegal in several Asian

countries and i wander if they just relabeled it has jin bu wan. This alkaloid

is not found in the herb jin bu wan.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

berkeleytcm

Friday, June 08, 2007 3:18 PM

Re: update on qian ceng ta - jin bu huan?

 

 

Hi all,

 

True, Jin Bu Huan/Stephania sinica herb did come to the community's

attention when Jin Bu Huan Anodyne products were found to contain

almost pure tetrahydropalmatine. Actually, a couple of people I went

to school with in New Mexico ended up in the hospital after taking too

much of it.

 

Everyone assumed that the plant Jin Bu Huan, when used traditionally,

was still safe. However, when you make a concentrated extract of Jin

Bu Huan you will end up with a high amount of tetrahydropalmatine,

which if administered for several months (as patients will want to do

with an effective insomnia formula!), can induce hepatitis or central

nervous system and respiratory depression in sensitive individuals. I

do not know for sure whether the chemical comes out into a water

decoction, but unless that could be determined, I would even be

careful when giving a decoction of Jin Bu Huan for more than a few weeks.

 

Alon asked whether I meant Yan hu suo, and actually both Yan Hu Suo

and Jin Bu Huan contain tetrahydropalmatine, but I believe Yan Hu Suo

contains it in smaller amounts. I would have to look it up again to

know for sure. Also, as we assume that Yan Hu Suo wouldn't be

administered in large doses daily over the course of several months,

the chances of it causing an allergic reaction would be much less.

Although it is a good thing to have in mind if prescribing larger

doses of Yan hu suo for longer than a few weeks at a time. Has anyone

had patients who experienced any of these types of reactions when

prescribing Yan hu suo?

 

However, if tetrahydropalmatine only comes out in an alcohol

extraction, or a water/alcohol mix, then we wouldn't need to worry

about decoctions. I'll try to find out.

 

Thanks,

Laura

 

, " Bill Schoenbart "

<plantmed2 wrote:

>

> Jin Bu Huan isn't Chaparral. Chaparral is Larrea tridentata.

>

> The controversy over Jin Bu Huan occurred when a product labeled as

Jin Bu

> Huan actually contained pure tetrahydropalmatine. It was being sold in

> health food stores as a treatment for insomnia. From the effects, it was

> obviously a drug. People would fall asleep immediately, only to wake

up two

> hours later. In one case, a woman passed out in one of the health food

> stores. This stuff was bad news, so we're lucky that it's not still

around.

>

> - Bill

>

> ............................................

> Bill Schoenbart, L.Ac.

> P.O. Box 8099

> Santa Cruz, CA 95061

>

> office phone: 831-335-3165

> email: plantmed

> ............................................

>

>

> >>>Qian Ceng Ta (Huperzia serrata)

>

> Yan Hu Suo (corydalis yanhusuo)

>

> Jin Bu Huan (Casia siamea) (chapparal) banned in U.S. due to

hepatotoxicity

>

> dr.w>>>>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, liver toxicity from chronic (ie. repeated, regular) use. Don't

want to bore anyone b/c this issue has been discussed on this list in

months (and years) past. I think there were some cases of people

mistakenly ingesting the entire little vial (of 12 or so little

tablets); they are packed in little vials somewhat like the popular

" Curing Pills " for digestion, which are meant to be taken 1-2 vials

at a time. Thus they got an overdose, and since IIRC some children

were involved, this was deemed dangerous.

 

So, I'm just sayin' -- here's another danger alert:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetaminophen#Toxicity

.....available on every city block.

 

Ann

 

 

On Jun 8, 2007, at 3:01 PM, bill_schoenbart wrote:

 

> Here's an article on the topic:

>

> http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00022295.htm

>

> - Bill

>

> , A Brameier

> <snakeoil.works wrote:

> >

> > Seems to me the main reason it was removed from the market was

> > supposed liver toxicity with prolonged use. Has anyone seen any

> way

> > to quantify this? For example, in comparison with acetaminophen,

> > whose entry into the general market was delayed for years because

> it

> > was deemed too toxic.

> >

> > Jin bu huan is short-acting, therefore one might wake after 2

> hours.

> > Without druggy aftereffects. Obviously not for chronic use. But

> > neither is Tylenol, which is sometimes used chronically, though

> more

> > public education on this may somewhat have reduced abuse (?).

> >

> > Just a question about a possible imponderable,

> > Ann

> >

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Z'ev, Do you remember what doses were involved?

ann

 

On Jun 8, 2007, at 6:34 PM, wrote:

 

> Jin bu huan was a big thing back in the early 80's. But I remember

> one of my assistants in my Denver clinic taking a dose for menstrual

> cramps, lying down on the floor, and was so groggy she couldn't drive

> herself home for six hours. I used it myself when I had shoulder

> pain once, went to bed and woke up a few hours later with

> palpitations, unable to breathe. I almost took myself to the

> emergency room, but was able to needle points to restore myself to

> sanity.

>

> The next day, I mentioned what happened to me to Ted Kaptchuk, who

> was teaching at PCOM at the time, and he basically told me I had

> poisoned myself with a crude drug.

>

> A few years later, a child died in Denver after taking Jin Bu Huan

> tablets.

>

> I haven't gotten close to any product that is not properly labeled

> ever since. . .

>

>

> On Jun 7, 2007, at 10:22 PM, Bill Schoenbart wrote:

>

> > Jin Bu Huan isn't Chaparral. Chaparral is Larrea tridentata.

> >

> > The controversy over Jin Bu Huan occurred when a product labeled as

> > Jin Bu

> > Huan actually contained pure tetrahydropalmatine. It was being

> sold in

> > health food stores as a treatment for insomnia. From the effects,

> > it was

> > obviously a drug. People would fall asleep immediately, only to

> > wake up two

> > hours later. In one case, a woman passed out in one of the health

> food

> > stores. This stuff was bad news, so we're lucky that it's not still

> > around.

> >

> > - Bill

> >

> > ............................................

> > Bill Schoenbart, L.Ac.

> > P.O. Box 8099

> > Santa Cruz, CA 95061

> >

> > office phone: 831-335-3165

> > email: plantmed

> > ............................................

> >

> > >>>Qian Ceng Ta (Huperzia serrata)

> >

> > Yan Hu Suo (corydalis yanhusuo)

> >

> > Jin Bu Huan (Casia siamea) (chapparal) banned in U.S. due to

> > hepatotoxicity

> >

> > dr.w>>>>

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Two or three tablets. . .

 

Z'ev

On Jun 8, 2007, at 4:19 PM, A Brameier wrote:

 

> Z'ev, Do you remember what doses were involved?

> ann

>

> On Jun 8, 2007, at 6:34 PM, wrote:

>

> > Jin bu huan was a big thing back in the early 80's. But I remember

> > one of my assistants in my Denver clinic taking a dose for menstrual

> > cramps, lying down on the floor, and was so groggy she couldn't

> drive

> > herself home for six hours. I used it myself when I had shoulder

> > pain once, went to bed and woke up a few hours later with

> > palpitations, unable to breathe. I almost took myself to the

> > emergency room, but was able to needle points to restore myself to

> > sanity.

> >

> > The next day, I mentioned what happened to me to Ted Kaptchuk, who

> > was teaching at PCOM at the time, and he basically told me I had

> > poisoned myself with a crude drug.

> >

> > A few years later, a child died in Denver after taking Jin Bu Huan

> > tablets.

> >

> > I haven't gotten close to any product that is not properly labeled

> > ever since. . .

> >

> >

> > On Jun 7, 2007, at 10:22 PM, Bill Schoenbart wrote:

> >

> > > Jin Bu Huan isn't Chaparral. Chaparral is Larrea tridentata.

> > >

> > > The controversy over Jin Bu Huan occurred when a product

> labeled as

> > > Jin Bu

> > > Huan actually contained pure tetrahydropalmatine. It was being

> > sold in

> > > health food stores as a treatment for insomnia. From the effects,

> > > it was

> > > obviously a drug. People would fall asleep immediately, only to

> > > wake up two

> > > hours later. In one case, a woman passed out in one of the health

> > food

> > > stores. This stuff was bad news, so we're lucky that it's not

> still

> > > around.

> > >

> > > - Bill

> > >

> > > ............................................

> > > Bill Schoenbart, L.Ac.

> > > P.O. Box 8099

> > > Santa Cruz, CA 95061

> > >

> > > office phone: 831-335-3165

> > > email: plantmed

> > > ............................................

> > >

> > > >>>Qian Ceng Ta (Huperzia serrata)

> > >

> > > Yan Hu Suo (corydalis yanhusuo)

> > >

> > > Jin Bu Huan (Casia siamea) (chapparal) banned in U.S. due to

> > > hepatotoxicity

> > >

> > > dr.w>>>>

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

The son of an LAc, MD in SF did take a whole vial and was in a very deep coma

for 24hr.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

A Brameier

Friday, June 08, 2007 4:07 PM

Re: Re: update on qian ceng ta - jin bu huan?

 

 

Yes, liver toxicity from chronic (ie. repeated, regular) use. Don't

want to bore anyone b/c this issue has been discussed on this list in

months (and years) past. I think there were some cases of people

mistakenly ingesting the entire little vial (of 12 or so little

tablets); they are packed in little vials somewhat like the popular

" Curing Pills " for digestion, which are meant to be taken 1-2 vials

at a time. Thus they got an overdose, and since IIRC some children

were involved, this was deemed dangerous.

 

So, I'm just sayin' -- here's another danger alert:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetaminophen#Toxicity

....available on every city block.

 

Ann

 

On Jun 8, 2007, at 3:01 PM, bill_schoenbart wrote:

 

> Here's an article on the topic:

>

> http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00022295.htm

>

> - Bill

>

> , A Brameier

> <snakeoil.works wrote:

> >

> > Seems to me the main reason it was removed from the market was

> > supposed liver toxicity with prolonged use. Has anyone seen any

> way

> > to quantify this? For example, in comparison with acetaminophen,

> > whose entry into the general market was delayed for years because

> it

> > was deemed too toxic.

> >

> > Jin bu huan is short-acting, therefore one might wake after 2

> hours.

> > Without druggy aftereffects. Obviously not for chronic use. But

> > neither is Tylenol, which is sometimes used chronically, though

> more

> > public education on this may somewhat have reduced abuse (?).

> >

> > Just a question about a possible imponderable,

> > Ann

> >

>

>

>

 

[Guest guest]

Wow. I have taken it many, many times - always only 2, never more

than once or twice a week (usually much less frequently) - and I have

never experienced anything even approaching that dramatic an effect.

Different tokes ;-)

 

ann

 

On Jun 8, 2007, at 7:23 PM, wrote:

 

> Two or three tablets. . .

>

> Z'ev

> On Jun 8, 2007, at 4:19 PM, A Brameier wrote:

>

> > Z'ev, Do you remember what doses were involved?

> > ann

> >

> > On Jun 8, 2007, at 6:34 PM, wrote:

> >

> > > Jin bu huan was a big thing back in the early 80's. But I remember

> > > one of my assistants in my Denver clinic taking a dose for

> menstrual

> > > cramps, lying down on the floor, and was so groggy she couldn't

> > drive

> > > herself home for six hours. I used it myself when I had shoulder

> > > pain once, went to bed and woke up a few hours later with

> > > palpitations, unable to breathe. I almost took myself to the

> > > emergency room, but was able to needle points to restore myself to

> > > sanity.

> > >

> > > The next day, I mentioned what happened to me to Ted Kaptchuk, who

> > > was teaching at PCOM at the time, and he basically told me I had

> > > poisoned myself with a crude drug.

> > >

> > > A few years later, a child died in Denver after taking Jin Bu Huan

> > > tablets.

> > >

> > > I haven't gotten close to any product that is not properly labeled

> > > ever since. . .

> > >

> > >

> > > On Jun 7, 2007, at 10:22 PM, Bill Schoenbart wrote:

> > >

> > > > Jin Bu Huan isn't Chaparral. Chaparral is Larrea tridentata.

> > > >

> > > > The controversy over Jin Bu Huan occurred when a product

> > labeled as

> > > > Jin Bu

> > > > Huan actually contained pure tetrahydropalmatine. It was being

> > > sold in

> > > > health food stores as a treatment for insomnia. From the

> effects,

> > > > it was

> > > > obviously a drug. People would fall asleep immediately, only to

> > > > wake up two

> > > > hours later. In one case, a woman passed out in one of the

> health

> > > food

> > > > stores. This stuff was bad news, so we're lucky that it's not

> > still

> > > > around.

> > > >

> > > > - Bill

> > > >

> > > > ............................................

> > > > Bill Schoenbart, L.Ac.

> > > > P.O. Box 8099

> > > > Santa Cruz, CA 95061

> > > >

> > > > office phone: 831-335-3165

> > > > email: plantmed

> > > > ............................................

> > > >

> > > > >>>Qian Ceng Ta (Huperzia serrata)

> > > >

> > > > Yan Hu Suo (corydalis yanhusuo)

> > > >

> > > > Jin Bu Huan (Casia siamea) (chapparal) banned in U.S. due to

> > > > hepatotoxicity

> > > >

> > > > dr.w>>>>

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

The whole plant still has the huperzine alkaloids, but at much lower

levels. The actions of huperzine were discovered when cholinergic

effects were observed in patients taking qian ceng ta.

 

Here's some info from ITM:

 

NEW PLANT DRUG FOR ALZHEIMER'S: HUPERZINE

Huperzine, an anticholinesterase alkaloid, is divided into two

chemical species, huperzine A and huperzine B, which have similar

effects but differing activity levels (huperzine A being about 10

times as strong as huperzine B). Huperzine A was first isolated from

the Chinese herb Lycopodium serratum in 1980 at the Zhejiang Academy

of Medical Sciences and the Shanghai Institute of Materia Medica of

the Chinese Academy of Sciences. Huperzine B was isolated five years

later. The plant source, originally called Qian Ceng Ta, meaning

thousand-layers pagoda (referring to the tall multi-leafed

appearance of the plant), is also known in China as Jin Bu Huan, a

term meaning " more valuable than gold, " usually applied to plants

that have potent analgesic actions. This herb should not be confused

with the patent remedy called Jin Bu Huan made from

tetrahydropalmatine. The plant has been reclassified botanically as

Huperzia serrata from the new family Huperziaceae, rather than from

the closely related family Lycopodiaceae. It is reported that the

Lycopodiaceae have two medicinal genera: Lycopodium (now Huperzia)

and Phlegmariurus. A common constituent is the alkaloid fordine,

which is found in 14 species of Huperzia and has similar action to

the huperzines.

 

Huperzia, as it is now called, contains a wide variety of alkaloids,

including lycodoline, lycoclavine, and serratinine, as well as the

huperzines. The alkaloids are of a unique structure and have been

called Lycopodium alkaloids. In general, they are comprised of four

rings, though one of the rings may be opened. The huperzines, like

many of the other lycopodium alkaloids, contain a nitrogen within

one of the rings and an NH2 group attached to the ring structure

(some of the Lycopodium alkaloids contain only a nitrogen within the

ring structure).

 

Huperzia is not much used as a crude herb in Chinese medicine: the

dominant application is for blood disorders caused by trauma or

acute ailment, such as hematamesis caused by overstrain, bruises,

hemorrhoids, and lung abscess. In addition to alkaloids, it contains

triterpenoids. Huperzines and other isolated alkaloids are

increasingly used in Chinese medicine as an alternative to crude

herb preparations.

 

PHARMACOLOGY AND CLINICAL APPLICATIONS OF HUPERZINE

Huperzines A and B reversibly inhibit cholinesterase; huperzine A

has a stronger action than huperzine B, which in turn has a stronger

action than galanthamine (an alkaloid from Lycorus radiata that has

been used for its anticholinesterase activity). Huperzine A has

substantially stronger anticholinesterase activity than

physostigmine or neostigmine (chinchona alkaloids obtained from

Physostigma venenosum; neostigmine is a common drug for treatment of

myasthenia at a dose of 1-2 mg by IM or 0.5 mg IV; physostigmine is

also an approved anticholinesterase drug), but huperzine B is three

to five times weaker than physostigmine. Huperzines A and B have

greater effect on acetylcholinesterase (AChE) than on

butyrocholinesterase (BuChE). Huperzine A, because of its

cholinesterase inhibiting activity, has been used in myasthenia

gravis patients in China, with apparent success.

 

Both huperzine A and B have been shown to have memory-enhancing

activities in animals. At 0.075 mg/kg for huperzine A or 0.5 mg/kg

for huperzine B, IP administration to mice significantly facilitated

spatial discrimination learning in a Y-maze study. At slightly

higher doses (0.075-0.125 mg/kg for A and 0.6-0.8 mg/kg for B) the

huperzines given prior to exposure of mice to carbon dioxide

prevented hypercapnia-induced impairment of learning. Memory

retention and retrieval could be enhanced in animals when the

alkaloids were given immediately or 6-12 hours after training.

Substantially lower or higher doses of huperzines are not effective.

Huperzine has been used for Alzheimer's and senile dementia with

positive results. In a double-blind trial with a group of 56

patients suffering from multi-infarct dementia or senile dementia

and a group of 104 patients with senile and presenile memory loss,

huperzine A was demonstrated to be effective for improving memory.

It was given by intramuscular injection, 0.05 mg twice daily for

four weeks to the first group and 0.03 mg twice daily for two weeks

to the second group. The only side effect was slight dizziness

experienced by a few patients. In rats, fordine, at 0.01-0.04 mg/kg

IP, speeds up conditioned avoidance responses, reverses impairment

of conditioned avoidance response, and antagonizes hippocampal and

cortical EEG changes induced by quinuclidinyl benilate.

 

Huperzine A has been evaluated at the Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville,

Florida. According to Alan Kozikowski, a chemist who is heading the

research there, Huperzine A is more effective and more specific than

tacrine, another anticholinesterase drug. Interneuron

Pharmaceuticals in Lexington, Mass. is testing Huperzine A in human

clinical trials.

 

 

 

, " Dr. W. W. Waldrope DOM

AP " <dr.w.w.waldrope wrote:

>

> Thanks for the clarification Bill.

> I realized after I posted that jin bu huan was not chaparral. Now

that

> that's clear, do you have any insights as to the safety/efficacy of

> qian ceng ta as a memory supplement compared to the huperzine

> products?

>

> dr.w

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks everyone for the interesting info on jin bu wan. The thread,

though, is actually about Qian Ceng Ta (chinese club moss) which

contains huperzine which is touted as being helpful for memory and

often recommended for alzheimers. My question is does anyone have any

experience/comments on this? Could the raw herb be used instead of the

VERY pricey isolated huperzine compounds and if so what would be the

dosage of raw herb? I have found only one source for the raw herb

(Rose Mountain Herbs) and can find no info about the herbs properties.

I found one source that gave jin bu huan as an alternative name; thus

the current conversation. I'm pretty sure at this point that Qian Ceng

Ta is not jin bu huan.

 

thx,

dr.w

[Guest guest]

Bill,

Thanks for the illumination!!

 

regards,

dr.w

[Guest guest]

Hi Alon,

 

Actually the alkaloid tetrahydropalmatine is in the herb Jin bu

huan/Stephania sinica herb, in very significant amounts. Is Jin bu wan

a different herb? Maybe we are talking about the same pin yin herb

name (Jin bu huan/wan) but two different species?

 

Laura

 

, " Alon Marcus "

<alonmarcus wrote:

>

> Laura

> Yin Hu So Su is tetrahydropalmatine, it became illegal in several

Asian countries and i wander if they just relabeled it has jin bu wan.

This alkaloid is not found in the herb jin bu wan.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

No the herb is jin bu huan, unfortunately chen and chen do not have chemical

composition for this herb, I know tetrahydropalmatine is the major analgesic

active ingredient in yan hu suo

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

berkeleytcm

Monday, June 11, 2007 10:22 AM

Re: update on qian ceng ta - jin bu huan?

 

 

Hi Alon,

 

Actually the alkaloid tetrahydropalmatine is in the herb Jin bu

huan/Stephania sinica herb, in very significant amounts. Is Jin bu wan

a different herb? Maybe we are talking about the same pin yin herb

name (Jin bu huan/wan) but two different species?

 

Laura

 

, " Alon Marcus "

<alonmarcus wrote:

>

> Laura

> Yin Hu So Su is tetrahydropalmatine, it became illegal in several

Asian countries and i wander if they just relabeled it has jin bu wan.

This alkaloid is not found in the herb jin bu wan.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Laura

Jin Bu Wan is the name of the small pills that caused all the problems

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

berkeleytcm

Monday, June 11, 2007 10:22 AM

Re: update on qian ceng ta - jin bu huan?

 

 

Hi Alon,

 

Actually the alkaloid tetrahydropalmatine is in the herb Jin bu

huan/Stephania sinica herb, in very significant amounts. Is Jin bu wan

a different herb? Maybe we are talking about the same pin yin herb

name (Jin bu huan/wan) but two different species?

 

Laura

 

, " Alon Marcus "

<alonmarcus wrote:

>

> Laura

> Yin Hu So Su is tetrahydropalmatine, it became illegal in several

Asian countries and i wander if they just relabeled it has jin bu wan.

This alkaloid is not found in the herb jin bu wan.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>