Guest guest Posted June 23, 2007 Report Share Posted June 23, 2007 <http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=201013/grpspId=1705060815/msgId= 40111/stime=1182546109/nc1=4670547/nc2=4617366/nc3=4025321> How does Chinese medicine view the concept of food allergies such as an allergy to wheat or dairy? It has seemed to me that while there are some very real food allergies many if not most of these can be seen as an energetic imbalance. For instance both wheat, gluten and dairy are damp and would aggravate a condition of either cold or hot dampness and phlegm. Any thoughts on this? Michael Tierra _____ << ella for Spam Control >> has removed 962 Spam messages and set aside 857 Newsletters for me You can use it too - and it's FREE! www.ellaforspam.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2007 Report Share Posted June 24, 2007 First thing is that most of these grain issues are food sensitivities, not allergies that would send a person to the hospital. From my patients and friends who have these conditions I would look at them as heat and damp toxins depending on the reactions. One friend developed a heat in the blood condition that is only now solved by a gluten free diet. Doug How does > Chinese medicine view the concept of food allergies such as an allergy to > wheat or dairy? It has seemed to me that while there are some very real food > allergies many if not most of these can be seen as an energetic imbalance. > For instance both wheat, gluten and dairy are damp and would aggravate a > condition of either cold or hot dampness and phlegm. Any thoughts on this? > > Michael Tierra > > > _____ > > << ella for Spam Control >> has removed 962 Spam messages and set aside 857 > Newsletters for me > You can use it too - and it's FREE! www.ellaforspam.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2007 Report Share Posted June 24, 2007 Michael, ( I think) I agree with your concept that energetic imbalances can cause food sensitivities. Meaning if there are no blatant pathologies then wheat, gluten etc are not going to cause any problems. I think that is how CM views such reactions. One can have an excess or deficiency that can lead to food sensitivities. Therefore treatment still comes down to pattern differentiation. I do not think it is always about deficiency as I have heard people suggest. But I would not say that wheat is " damp " per se, but I would agree that if one has, for instance, excessive damp cold then the sweet and cool wheat can aggravate it, just as many yin and blood tonifying medicinals can. CM would therefore say that wheat is better for damp-heat than cold-damp conditions. CM states that wheat is cold and sweet and eliminates vexation, nourishes the heart, calms the spirit, boosts the spleen, alleviates thirst, and disinhibits urination. I have seen wheat and dairy [sensitivities] mentioned as causes for chronic allergies and sinus congestion. I do think the CM is limited in explaining the complexities of the issue. For example I have one patient that wheat creates liver qi stagnation symptoms with heat. There is zero s/s of damp. Another, liver qi with emotional depression. I also think such sensitivities can cause all sorts of systemic problems related to things far beyond just dampness. Functional medicine seems to have a pretty good handle on how such sensitivities really cause systemic issues. But I do find that Chinese herbs can be helpful in eliminating the core imbalance. Other's comments? - _____ On Behalf Of Michael Tierra Saturday, June 23, 2007 3:25 PM question about food allergies <http://geo.. <http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=201013/grpspId=1705060815/msgId= > com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=201013/grpspId=1705060815/msgId= 40111/stime=1182546109/nc1=4670547/nc2=4617366/nc3=4025321> How does Chinese medicine view the concept of food allergies such as an allergy to wheat or dairy? It has seemed to me that while there are some very real food allergies many if not most of these can be seen as an energetic imbalance. For instance both wheat, gluten and dairy are damp and would aggravate a condition of either cold or hot dampness and phlegm. Any thoughts on this? Michael Tierra _____ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2007 Report Share Posted June 24, 2007 Jason Do you get rid of the allergy or the pt needs to stay off the food? - Sunday, June 24, 2007 1:53 PM RE: question about food allergies Michael, ( I think) I agree with your concept that energetic imbalances can cause food sensitivities. Meaning if there are no blatant pathologies then wheat, gluten etc are not going to cause any problems. I think that is how CM views such reactions. One can have an excess or deficiency that can lead to food sensitivities. Therefore treatment still comes down to pattern differentiation. I do not think it is always about deficiency as I have heard people suggest. But I would not say that wheat is " damp " per se, but I would agree that if one has, for instance, excessive damp cold then the sweet and cool wheat can aggravate it, just as many yin and blood tonifying medicinals can. CM would therefore say that wheat is better for damp-heat than cold-damp conditions. CM states that wheat is cold and sweet and eliminates vexation, nourishes the heart, calms the spirit, boosts the spleen, alleviates thirst, and disinhibits urination. I have seen wheat and dairy [sensitivities] mentioned as causes for chronic allergies and sinus congestion. I do think the CM is limited in explaining the complexities of the issue. For example I have one patient that wheat creates liver qi stagnation symptoms with heat. There is zero s/s of damp. Another, liver qi with emotional depression. I also think such sensitivities can cause all sorts of systemic problems related to things far beyond just dampness. Functional medicine seems to have a pretty good handle on how such sensitivities really cause systemic issues. But I do find that Chinese herbs can be helpful in eliminating the core imbalance. Other's comments? - _____ On Behalf Of Michael Tierra Saturday, June 23, 2007 3:25 PM question about food allergies <http://geo.. <http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=201013/grpspId=1705060815/msgId= > com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=201013/grpspId=1705060815/msgId= 40111/stime=1182546109/nc1=4670547/nc2=4617366/nc3=4025321> How does Chinese medicine view the concept of food allergies such as an allergy to wheat or dairy? It has seemed to me that while there are some very real food allergies many if not most of these can be seen as an energetic imbalance. For instance both wheat, gluten and dairy are damp and would aggravate a condition of either cold or hot dampness and phlegm. Any thoughts on this? Michael Tierra _____ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2007 Report Share Posted June 24, 2007 Alon, Gotten rid of food sensitivities, and mild allergies. Not severe life threatening IgE reactions. -Jason _____ On Behalf Of Alon Marcus Sunday, June 24, 2007 5:51 PM Re: question about food allergies Jason Do you get rid of the allergy or the pt needs to stay off the food? - @ <%40> Sunday, June 24, 2007 1:53 PM RE: question about food allergies Michael, ( I think) I agree with your concept that energetic imbalances can cause food sensitivities. Meaning if there are no blatant pathologies then wheat, gluten etc are not going to cause any problems. I think that is how CM views such reactions. One can have an excess or deficiency that can lead to food sensitivities. Therefore treatment still comes down to pattern differentiation. I do not think it is always about deficiency as I have heard people suggest. But I would not say that wheat is " damp " per se, but I would agree that if one has, for instance, excessive damp cold then the sweet and cool wheat can aggravate it, just as many yin and blood tonifying medicinals can. CM would therefore say that wheat is better for damp-heat than cold-damp conditions. CM states that wheat is cold and sweet and eliminates vexation, nourishes the heart, calms the spirit, boosts the spleen, alleviates thirst, and disinhibits urination. I have seen wheat and dairy [sensitivities] mentioned as causes for chronic allergies and sinus congestion. I do think the CM is limited in explaining the complexities of the issue. For example I have one patient that wheat creates liver qi stagnation symptoms with heat. There is zero s/s of damp. Another, liver qi with emotional depression. I also think such sensitivities can cause all sorts of systemic problems related to things far beyond just dampness. Functional medicine seems to have a pretty good handle on how such sensitivities really cause systemic issues. But I do find that Chinese herbs can be helpful in eliminating the core imbalance. Other's comments? - _____ @ <%40> [@ <%40> ] On Behalf Of Michael Tierra Saturday, June 23, 2007 3:25 PM @ <%40> question about food allergies <http://geo.. <http://geo.. <http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=201013/grpspId=1705060815/msgId= > com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=201013/grpspId=1705060815/msgId= > com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=201013/grpspId=1705060815/msgId= 40111/stime=1182546109/nc1=4670547/nc2=4617366/nc3=4025321> How does Chinese medicine view the concept of food allergies such as an allergy to wheat or dairy? It has seemed to me that while there are some very real food allergies many if not most of these can be seen as an energetic imbalance. For instance both wheat, gluten and dairy are damp and would aggravate a condition of either cold or hot dampness and phlegm. Any thoughts on this? Michael Tierra _____ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2007 Report Share Posted June 24, 2007 Jason Did they need to continue to take herbs if they continued to eat the offending foods? - Sunday, June 24, 2007 7:18 PM RE: question about food allergies Alon, Gotten rid of food sensitivities, and mild allergies. Not severe life threatening IgE reactions. -Jason _____ On Behalf Of Alon Marcus Sunday, June 24, 2007 5:51 PM Re: question about food allergies Jason Do you get rid of the allergy or the pt needs to stay off the food? - @ <%40> Sunday, June 24, 2007 1:53 PM RE: question about food allergies Michael, ( I think) I agree with your concept that energetic imbalances can cause food sensitivities. Meaning if there are no blatant pathologies then wheat, gluten etc are not going to cause any problems. I think that is how CM views such reactions. One can have an excess or deficiency that can lead to food sensitivities. Therefore treatment still comes down to pattern differentiation. I do not think it is always about deficiency as I have heard people suggest. But I would not say that wheat is " damp " per se, but I would agree that if one has, for instance, excessive damp cold then the sweet and cool wheat can aggravate it, just as many yin and blood tonifying medicinals can. CM would therefore say that wheat is better for damp-heat than cold-damp conditions. CM states that wheat is cold and sweet and eliminates vexation, nourishes the heart, calms the spirit, boosts the spleen, alleviates thirst, and disinhibits urination. I have seen wheat and dairy [sensitivities] mentioned as causes for chronic allergies and sinus congestion. I do think the CM is limited in explaining the complexities of the issue. For example I have one patient that wheat creates liver qi stagnation symptoms with heat. There is zero s/s of damp. Another, liver qi with emotional depression. I also think such sensitivities can cause all sorts of systemic problems related to things far beyond just dampness. Functional medicine seems to have a pretty good handle on how such sensitivities really cause systemic issues. But I do find that Chinese herbs can be helpful in eliminating the core imbalance. Other's comments? - _____ @ <%40> [@ <%40> ] On Behalf Of Michael Tierra Saturday, June 23, 2007 3:25 PM @ <%40> question about food allergies <http://geo.. <http://geo.. <http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=201013/grpspId=1705060815/msgId= > com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=201013/grpspId=1705060815/msgId= > com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=201013/grpspId=1705060815/msgId= 40111/stime=1182546109/nc1=4670547/nc2=4617366/nc3=4025321> How does Chinese medicine view the concept of food allergies such as an allergy to wheat or dairy? It has seemed to me that while there are some very real food allergies many if not most of these can be seen as an energetic imbalance. For instance both wheat, gluten and dairy are damp and would aggravate a condition of either cold or hot dampness and phlegm. Any thoughts on this? Michael Tierra _____ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2007 Report Share Posted June 24, 2007 No, not always. -Jason _____ On Behalf Of Alon Marcus Sunday, June 24, 2007 9:17 PM Re: question about food allergies Jason Did they need to continue to take herbs if they continued to eat the offending foods? - @ <%40> Sunday, June 24, 2007 7:18 PM RE: question about food allergies Alon, Gotten rid of food sensitivities, and mild allergies. Not severe life threatening IgE reactions. -Jason _____ @ <%40> [@ <%40> ] On Behalf Of Alon Marcus Sunday, June 24, 2007 5:51 PM @ <%40> Re: question about food allergies Jason Do you get rid of the allergy or the pt needs to stay off the food? - @ <%40> Sunday, June 24, 2007 1:53 PM RE: question about food allergies Michael, ( I think) I agree with your concept that energetic imbalances can cause food sensitivities. Meaning if there are no blatant pathologies then wheat, gluten etc are not going to cause any problems. I think that is how CM views such reactions. One can have an excess or deficiency that can lead to food sensitivities. Therefore treatment still comes down to pattern differentiation. I do not think it is always about deficiency as I have heard people suggest. But I would not say that wheat is " damp " per se, but I would agree that if one has, for instance, excessive damp cold then the sweet and cool wheat can aggravate it, just as many yin and blood tonifying medicinals can. CM would therefore say that wheat is better for damp-heat than cold-damp conditions. CM states that wheat is cold and sweet and eliminates vexation, nourishes the heart, calms the spirit, boosts the spleen, alleviates thirst, and disinhibits urination. I have seen wheat and dairy [sensitivities] mentioned as causes for chronic allergies and sinus congestion. I do think the CM is limited in explaining the complexities of the issue. For example I have one patient that wheat creates liver qi stagnation symptoms with heat. There is zero s/s of damp. Another, liver qi with emotional depression. I also think such sensitivities can cause all sorts of systemic problems related to things far beyond just dampness. Functional medicine seems to have a pretty good handle on how such sensitivities really cause systemic issues. But I do find that Chinese herbs can be helpful in eliminating the core imbalance. Other's comments? - _____ @ <%40> [@ <%40> ] On Behalf Of Michael Tierra Saturday, June 23, 2007 3:25 PM @ <%40> question about food allergies <http://geo.. <http://geo.. <http://geo.. <http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=201013/grpspId=1705060815/msgId= > com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=201013/grpspId=1705060815/msgId= > com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=201013/grpspId=1705060815/msgId= > com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=201013/grpspId=1705060815/msgId= 40111/stime=1182546109/nc1=4670547/nc2=4617366/nc3=4025321> How does Chinese medicine view the concept of food allergies such as an allergy to wheat or dairy? It has seemed to me that while there are some very real food allergies many if not most of these can be seen as an energetic imbalance. For instance both wheat, gluten and dairy are damp and would aggravate a condition of either cold or hot dampness and phlegm. Any thoughts on this? Michael Tierra _____ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 I'm not so sure that these sensitivities only show with blatant pathology. I've had two good friends with gluten intolerance, who were treated by very good TCM doctors for years with little result. Their lives were getting increasingly miserable until they went off gluten and things turned around. Although I hadn't treated them I would say both were reasonably healthy and perhaps exceedly good in their food choices otherwise. So if I were to see their symptoms in other patients I would suspect, diagnosis and eliminate the gluten sensitivity before spending months of time trying to treat in TCM terms. Now on the other hand we have people who eliminate so much from their diet, that eventually they become sensitive to everything. Here I can be confident we have not only an eating disorder but probably a spleen deficiency. Doug > > Michael, > > ( I think) I agree with your concept that energetic imbalances can cause > food sensitivities. Meaning if there are no blatant pathologies then wheat, > gluten etc are not going to cause any problems. I think that is how CM views > such reactions. One can have an excess or deficiency that can lead to food > sensitivities. Therefore treatment still comes down to pattern > differentiation. I do not think it is always about deficiency as I have > heard people suggest. > ____________________ > > I do think the CM is limited in explaining the complexities of the issue. > For example I have one patient that wheat creates liver qi stagnation > symptoms with heat. There is zero s/s of damp. Another, liver qi with > emotional depression. I also think such sensitivities can cause all sorts of > systemic problems related to things far beyond just dampness. Functional > medicine seems to have a pretty good handle on how such sensitivities really > cause systemic issues. But I do find that Chinese herbs can be helpful in > eliminating the core imbalance. > > Other's comments? > > - > > question about food allergies > How does > Chinese medicine view the concept of food allergies such as an allergy to > wheat or dairy? It has seemed to me that while there are some very real food > allergies many if not most of these can be seen as an energetic imbalance. > For instance both wheat, gluten and dairy are damp and would aggravate a > condition of either cold or hot dampness and phlegm. Any thoughts on this? > > Michael Tierra > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 Doug, I agree that one should eliminate the offending food while recovering. But if they are having obvious symptoms (as you suggest) from the food, then IMO there is a " blatant pathology " - Just because they saw a good TCM doc does not prove there is not a pathology. Or maybe I misunderstood you??? I have a hard time seeing how someone is " reasonably healthy " and at the same time " their lives are getting increasingly miserable " ??? -Jason _____ On Behalf Of Monday, June 25, 2007 12:39 AM Re: question about food allergies I'm not so sure that these sensitivities only show with blatant pathology. I've had two good friends with gluten intolerance, who were treated by very good TCM doctors for years with little result. Their lives were getting increasingly miserable until they went off gluten and things turned around. Although I hadn't treated them I would say both were reasonably healthy and perhaps exceedly good in their food choices otherwise. So if I were to see their symptoms in other patients I would suspect, diagnosis and eliminate the gluten sensitivity before spending months of time trying to treat in TCM terms. Now on the other hand we have people who eliminate so much from their diet, that eventually they become sensitive to everything. Here I can be confident we have not only an eating disorder but probably a spleen deficiency. Doug > > Michael, > > ( I think) I agree with your concept that energetic imbalances can cause > food sensitivities. Meaning if there are no blatant pathologies then wheat, > gluten etc are not going to cause any problems. I think that is how CM views > such reactions. One can have an excess or deficiency that can lead to food > sensitivities. Therefore treatment still comes down to pattern > differentiation. I do not think it is always about deficiency as I have > heard people suggest. > ____________________ > > I do think the CM is limited in explaining the complexities of the issue. > For example I have one patient that wheat creates liver qi stagnation > symptoms with heat. There is zero s/s of damp. Another, liver qi with > emotional depression. I also think such sensitivities can cause all sorts of > systemic problems related to things far beyond just dampness. Functional > medicine seems to have a pretty good handle on how such sensitivities really > cause systemic issues. But I do find that Chinese herbs can be helpful in > eliminating the core imbalance. > > Other's comments? > > - > > question about food allergies > How does > Chinese medicine view the concept of food allergies such as an allergy to > wheat or dairy? It has seemed to me that while there are some very real food > allergies many if not most of these can be seen as an energetic imbalance. > For instance both wheat, gluten and dairy are damp and would aggravate a > condition of either cold or hot dampness and phlegm. Any thoughts on this? > > Michael Tierra > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 I agree, they aren't healthy with these types of symptoms, but the practitioners were treating the what they percieved as the pathology as well as symptoms forever when the solution was a simple removal of the food. I want to believe that you or others or myself can find the root problem with TCM but I'm just saying that when it comes to gluten intolerance, there is a simpler solution, albeit not perfect. doug , " " wrote: > > Doug, > > > > I agree that one should eliminate the offending food while recovering. But > if they are having obvious symptoms (as you suggest) from the food, then IMO > there is a " blatant pathology " - Just because they saw a good TCM doc does > not prove there is not a pathology. Or maybe I misunderstood you??? I have a > hard time seeing how someone is " reasonably healthy " and at the same time > " their lives are getting increasingly miserable " ??? > > > > -Jason > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 I tend to agree. The issue of leaky gut syndrome is one thing, that may be healed over time, but the issue of gliadin sensitivity may be of a different order, more similar to individual sensitivities we call allergies, ie. not so easy to change. It may fall into that grab- bag of problems called 'autoimmune'. See this discussion of it: http://www.members.cox.net/hal.kraus/gluten/the_basics.htm Or here, which discusses the different types of Ig reactions: http://www.frot.co.nz/dietnet/basics/gluten.htm The question remains whether these patients can be maintained with Chinese herb therapy, while continuing to eat wheat (or other food irritants). At some point it seems like trying to go up the down escalator. Just take the stairs. ann On Jun 25, 2007, at 10:14 AM, wrote: > I agree, they aren't healthy with these types of symptoms, but the > practitioners were treating the what they percieved as the pathology > as well as symptoms forever when the solution was a simple removal of > the food. I want to believe that you or others or myself can find the > root problem with TCM but I'm just saying that when it comes to gluten > intolerance, there is a simpler solution, albeit not perfect. > doug > > , " " > wrote: > > > > Doug, > > > > > > > > I agree that one should eliminate the offending food while > recovering. But > > if they are having obvious symptoms (as you suggest) from the food, > then IMO > > there is a " blatant pathology " - Just because they saw a good TCM > doc does > > not prove there is not a pathology. Or maybe I misunderstood you??? > I have a > > hard time seeing how someone is " reasonably healthy " and at the same > time > > " their lives are getting increasingly miserable " ??? > > > > > > > > -Jason > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 It has always been a question on my mind whether or not CM can alter the balance of a person in such a way to stop a severe IgE type allergic reaction. And if CM change the balance, will it be long lasting. 5 years ago, I encouraged my wife to see my Doctor of CM for her severe head to toe eczema, which she had since 2 years of age. She also had acute uriticaria and annaphalatic type reactions to egg and dairy proteins, to the point of being hospitalized twice. Well, within a couple of months her eczema cleared up, obviously, but the intersting part is that she started being able to tollerate small amounts of egg or dairy products that were " cooked or baked " into a recipe. When she would eat these, once deadly, foods her reaction would be just a mild nausea. Eventually even the nausea feeling left her and she could handle eating these foods without too much problems. Now that was five years ago. The past 5 months or so she started getting uriticaria randomly appearing on her body for reasons we couldn't figure out. Two weeks ago at her sisters wedding she actually had a very severe reaction to the dairy that was cooked into the rice pilaf that she almost went to the hospital, it wasn't annaphalatix, but there was definelty lots of swelling and hives on the outside of her body. So it seems that she improved to the point where she was aboe to eat once offending foods without to much problem. But then over time her sensitivities came back. She is still free of the eczema, but her uriticaria came back. Could this have been due to emotional stress (she has gone back to college, which has brought up a lot of emotionally challanging changes), ie Liver depression Qi stagnation, overacting on the spleen ??? I am mind boggled about how a seemingly life threatenning allergy could go away, but then return again later in life. Perhaps there is more to the bodies physiology then we know. Perhaps what we think of as being set in stone is not the case??? Interesting topic, never the less.... Trevor , A Brameier <snakeoil.works wrote: > > I tend to agree. The issue of leaky gut syndrome is one thing, that > may be healed over time, but the issue of gliadin sensitivity may be > of a different order, more similar to individual sensitivities we > call allergies, ie. not so easy to change. It may fall into that grab- > bag of problems called 'autoimmune'. See this discussion of it: > > http://www.members.cox.net/hal.kraus/gluten/the_basics.htm > > Or here, which discusses the different types of Ig reactions: > http://www.frot.co.nz/dietnet/basics/gluten.htm > > The question remains whether these patients can be maintained with > Chinese herb therapy, while continuing to eat wheat (or other food > irritants). At some point it seems like trying to go up the down > escalator. Just take the stairs. > > ann > > > > On Jun 25, 2007, at 10:14 AM, wrote: > > > I agree, they aren't healthy with these types of symptoms, but the > > practitioners were treating the what they percieved as the pathology > > as well as symptoms forever when the solution was a simple removal of > > the food. I want to believe that you or others or myself can find the > > root problem with TCM but I'm just saying that when it comes to gluten > > intolerance, there is a simpler solution, albeit not perfect. > > doug > > > > , " " > > <@> wrote: > > > > > > Doug, > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree that one should eliminate the offending food while > > recovering. But > > > if they are having obvious symptoms (as you suggest) from the food, > > then IMO > > > there is a " blatant pathology " - Just because they saw a good TCM > > doc does > > > not prove there is not a pathology. Or maybe I misunderstood you??? > > I have a > > > hard time seeing how someone is " reasonably healthy " and at the same > > time > > > " their lives are getting increasingly miserable " ??? > > > > > > > > > > > > -Jason > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 For those of you who have seen improvement when gluten was removed from a patient's diet: how long did it take for symptoms to abate after the gluten was removed? Gluten sensitivity has become something of a fad diagnosis in recent years as evidenced by the numerous wheat free products available in the organic/natural food outlets these days. Human civilizations have favored these kinds of grains since we figured out how to plant crops in Egypt way back when (and Yellow river area in China of course). If gluten were so toxic to the majority of people, we probably wouldn't have flourished as we did once agriculture became part of our social development. So, if giving up gluten doesn't cause symptoms to abate, then we can safely presume that gluten isn't the problem. But like I asked above, how long should we remove wheat from the diet before ruling out a celiac disease or gluten sensitivity. -al. On 6/25/07, A Brameier <snakeoil.works wrote: > > The question remains whether these patients can be maintained with > Chinese herb therapy, while continuing to eat wheat (or other food > irritants). At some point it seems like trying to go up the down > escalator. Just take the stairs. > > > -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 Al It depends on how serious the problem is. If someone truly has a problem with gluten improvement can occur fairly quickly, from days to weeks - Al Stone Monday, June 25, 2007 10:10 AM Re: question about food allergies For those of you who have seen improvement when gluten was removed from a patient's diet: how long did it take for symptoms to abate after the gluten was removed? Gluten sensitivity has become something of a fad diagnosis in recent years as evidenced by the numerous wheat free products available in the organic/natural food outlets these days. Human civilizations have favored these kinds of grains since we figured out how to plant crops in Egypt way back when (and Yellow river area in China of course). If gluten were so toxic to the majority of people, we probably wouldn't have flourished as we did once agriculture became part of our social development. So, if giving up gluten doesn't cause symptoms to abate, then we can safely presume that gluten isn't the problem. But like I asked above, how long should we remove wheat from the diet before ruling out a celiac disease or gluten sensitivity. -al. On 6/25/07, A Brameier <snakeoil.works wrote: > > The question remains whether these patients can be maintained with > Chinese herb therapy, while continuing to eat wheat (or other food > irritants). At some point it seems like trying to go up the down > escalator. Just take the stairs. > > > -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 It's also interesting that in some cases, women cut simple carbs out of their diet (best they can) and it resolves PMS / menstrual pain completely. I don't understand why it would, but food for thought (oops - no pun intended). Geoff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 This is totally to be expected. I often counsel clients to get off sugar (and other simple carbs) to deal with a multitude of symptoms/ syndromes. Insulin resistance is practically endemic (not to seem rabid here). Don't we remember that little book " Sugar Blues " written so many years ago? Eat sugar, insulin way up, then blood glucose goes way down --->sugar blues. Blood sugar swings = moody. That's just the beginning. Simple sugars tend to increase stickiness of platelets. And consumption of sugar tends to be one of the causes for magnesium loss. The B vitamins require mg for conversion to their active form in the liver. So inadequate Bs, and low magnesium is a recipe for PMS and menstrual cramps. And oh yeah, inadequate B6 causes water retention (bloat) premenstrually. Then there's the dopamine connection...but don't get me started. See it all the time. ann On Jun 25, 2007, at 4:57 PM, G Hudson wrote: > It's also interesting that in some cases, women cut simple carbs out > of their diet (best they can) and it resolves PMS / menstrual pain > completely. I don't understand why it would, but food for thought > (oops - no pun intended). > Geoff > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 Al, One thing to consider besides just the simple food, is the modern impact on the G.I. - fast food, environmental toxins, etc. This damage can make once friendly food (for even 1000's of years) now harmful. It is not the food, but the state of the GI tract. I do agree and think gluten insensitivity is over diagnosed, no doubt, but I also think more and more people are developing real food sensitivities than in past years. I have treated many many kids with such problems. I really don't think this was a problem when I was growing up. OR maybe it was and no one knew how to dx it. ??? :-) -Jason _____ On Behalf Of Al Stone Monday, June 25, 2007 11:11 AM Re: question about food allergies Gluten sensitivity has become something of a fad diagnosis in recent years as evidenced by the numerous wheat free products available in the organic/natural food outlets these days. Human civilizations have favored these kinds of grains since we figured out how to plant crops in Egypt way back when (and Yellow river area in China of course). If gluten were so toxic to the majority of people, we probably wouldn't have flourished as we did once agriculture became part of our social development. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2007 Report Share Posted June 27, 2007 Al, I think the idea here is that it is the over exposure to a specific item that can create a sensitivity. Rice, which is more or less considered hypo-allergenic has been eaten for generations with little side effect. Some wheat varieties, however, have a higher potential in certain populations when they use the grain as a primary food source generation after generation. Just because people have been eating a food that is the only food their ecosystem can produce doesn’t necessarily mean that a percentage of the population isn’t experiencing a sensitivity to the food. Humans are experts at normalizing idiosyncrasies and chalking them up to cultural variation. I wonder how much cultural expression is actually food related. Kip _____ On Behalf Of Al Stone Monday, June 25, 2007 10:11 AM Re: question about food allergies For those of you who have seen improvement when gluten was removed from a patient's diet: how long did it take for symptoms to abate after the gluten was removed? Gluten sensitivity has become something of a fad diagnosis in recent years as evidenced by the numerous wheat free products available in the organic/natural food outlets these days. Human civilizations have favored these kinds of grains since we figured out how to plant crops in Egypt way back when (and Yellow river area in China of course). If gluten were so toxic to the majority of people, we probably wouldn't have flourished as we did once agriculture became part of our social development. So, if giving up gluten doesn't cause symptoms to abate, then we can safely presume that gluten isn't the problem. But like I asked above, how long should we remove wheat from the diet before ruling out a celiac disease or gluten sensitivity. -al. On 6/25/07, A Brameier <HYPERLINK " snakeoil.works%40verizon.net " snakeoil.works@-verizon.net> wrote: > > The question remains whether these patients can be maintained with > Chinese herb therapy, while continuing to eat wheat (or other food > irritants). At some point it seems like trying to go up the down > escalator. Just take the stairs. > > > -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2007 Report Share Posted June 27, 2007 Talking about problems with food, there has been a massive crackdown on contaminated food being produced in China, see http://news./s/afp/20070627/hl_afp/healthchinafood_070627135319 This is on top of wide spread GMP licenses being revoked earlier in the year. What's going on in China? Kind regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC Editor Times +44 (0) 1189 612512 enquiries www.chinesemedicinetimes.com www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php This message contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the addressee. If you have received this message in error you must not disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify sender. Although this e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, e-mail communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no warranty that this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this transmission shall or shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an offer or otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by electronic communication. Your name and address may be stored to facilitate communications. The sender is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, Wokingham, Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK. On Behalf Of kip 27 June 2007 16:47 RE: question about food allergies Al, I think the idea here is that it is the over exposure to a specific item that can create a sensitivity. Rice, which is more or less considered hypo-allergenic has been eaten for generations with little side effect. Some wheat varieties, however, have a higher potential in certain populations when they use the grain as a primary food source generation after generation. Just because people have been eating a food that is the only food their ecosystem can produce doesn't necessarily mean that a percentage of the population isn't experiencing a sensitivity to the food. Humans are experts at normalizing idiosyncrasies and chalking them up to cultural variation. I wonder how much cultural expression is actually food related. Kip _____ On Behalf Of Al Stone Monday, June 25, 2007 10:11 AM Re: question about food allergies For those of you who have seen improvement when gluten was removed from a patient's diet: how long did it take for symptoms to abate after the gluten was removed? Gluten sensitivity has become something of a fad diagnosis in recent years as evidenced by the numerous wheat free products available in the organic/natural food outlets these days. Human civilizations have favored these kinds of grains since we figured out how to plant crops in Egypt way back when (and Yellow river area in China of course). If gluten were so toxic to the majority of people, we probably wouldn't have flourished as we did once agriculture became part of our social development. So, if giving up gluten doesn't cause symptoms to abate, then we can safely presume that gluten isn't the problem. But like I asked above, how long should we remove wheat from the diet before ruling out a celiac disease or gluten sensitivity. -al. On 6/25/07, A Brameier <HYPERLINK " snakeoil.works%40verizon.net " snakeoil.works@-verizon.net> wrote: > > The question remains whether these patients can be maintained with > Chinese herb therapy, while continuing to eat wheat (or other food > irritants). At some point it seems like trying to go up the down > escalator. Just take the stairs. > > > -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2007 Report Share Posted June 27, 2007 To continue this line of thought, some other factors to consider: 1)Wheat itself has been changed by hybridization, increasing protein and gluten content over the centuries. This may increase sensitivity 2) How the wheat is prepared is critical. With or without yeast in bread, combinations with other foods or ingredients. Refined (white flour) or whole grain flour. Couscous or bulghur wheat. 3) Lifestyle, chewing one's food, other stress factors. Personally, I think wheat gets a bad rap because few people know how to make good bread or wheat product dishes. On Jun 27, 2007, at 8:47 AM, kip wrote: > Al, > > > > I think the idea here is that it is the over exposure to a specific > item > that can create a sensitivity. Rice, which is more or less considered > hypo-allergenic has been eaten for generations with little side > effect. Some > wheat varieties, however, have a higher potential in certain > populations > when they use the grain as a primary food source generation after > generation. Just because people have been eating a food that is the > only > food their ecosystem can produce doesn’t necessarily mean that a > percentage > of the population isn’t experiencing a sensitivity to the food. > Humans are > experts at normalizing idiosyncrasies and chalking them up to cultural > variation. I wonder how much cultural expression is actually food > related. > > > > Kip > > > > _____ > > > On Behalf Of Al Stone > Monday, June 25, 2007 10:11 AM > > Re: question about food allergies > > > > For those of you who have seen improvement when gluten was removed > from a > patient's diet: how long did it take for symptoms to abate after > the gluten > was removed? > > Gluten sensitivity has become something of a fad diagnosis in > recent years > as evidenced by the numerous wheat free products available in the > organic/natural food outlets these days. Human civilizations have > favored > these kinds of grains since we figured out how to plant crops in > Egypt way > back when (and Yellow river area in China of course). If gluten > were so > toxic to the majority of people, we probably wouldn't have > flourished as we > did once agriculture became part of our social development. > > So, if giving up gluten doesn't cause symptoms to abate, then we > can safely > presume that gluten isn't the problem. But like I asked above, how > long > should we remove wheat from the diet before ruling out a celiac > disease or > gluten sensitivity. > > -al. > > On 6/25/07, A Brameier <HYPERLINK > " snakeoil.works%40verizon.net " snakeoil.works@-verizon.net> > wrote: >> >> The question remains whether these patients can be maintained with >> Chinese herb therapy, while continuing to eat wheat (or other food >> irritants). At some point it seems like trying to go up the down >> escalator. Just take the stairs. >> >> >> > > -- > , DAOM > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2007 Report Share Posted June 27, 2007 If you think someone possibly has celiac they should be tested before you do an elimination. A celiac panel usually includes : Antigliadin IgG, IgA, Tissue transglutaminase (TTG), Anitendomysial IgA and Total IgA. Testing can be helpful to in identifying if other members of a family need to worry about it and for long term compliance, because the only next symptom they might have is cancer. The elimination of gluten from the diet for two weeks can cause a drop in immunoglobulin levels. This drop can take 3 months to rebuild in some individuals making future testing difficult, and possibly returning a false negative in a person with celiac. The blood tests have only been around for about 10 years and the genetic testing even less, so I can see how it might seem like a fad. About 40% of people carry the gene but it doesn't always manifest unless they have a triggering event. Like Zev said the gluten concentrations in modern day wheat is much higher than that of the Fertile Crescent at the dawn of agriculture. Some have theorized that the Middle East has the lowest prevalence of celiac because people who had a problem with it died out, and since it is a genetic disease they removed their genes from the pool. As far as how long does it take to see improvement after removing gluten from the diet, it depends on what the problem is. Migraines and neurological symptoms can take the longest-up to 18 months. In my practice I see a lot of infertility and suggest people who are dealing with it get screened for celiac, this coming from the NIH Consensus Conference on Celiac Disease. Anyway, my wife is an ND and she specializes in this... Sean _____ On Behalf Of Al Stone Monday, June 25, 2007 1:11 PM Re: question about food allergies For those of you who have seen improvement when gluten was removed from a patient's diet: how long did it take for symptoms to abate after the gluten was removed? Gluten sensitivity has become something of a fad diagnosis in recent years as evidenced by the numerous wheat free products available in the organic/natural food outlets these days. Human civilizations have favored these kinds of grains since we figured out how to plant crops in Egypt way back when (and Yellow river area in China of course). If gluten were so toxic to the majority of people, we probably wouldn't have flourished as we did once agriculture became part of our social development. So, if giving up gluten doesn't cause symptoms to abate, then we can safely presume that gluten isn't the problem. But like I asked above, how long should we remove wheat from the diet before ruling out a celiac disease or gluten sensitivity. -al. On 6/25/07, A Brameier <snakeoil.works@ <snakeoil.works%40verizon.net> verizon.net> wrote: > > The question remains whether these patients can be maintained with > Chinese herb therapy, while continuing to eat wheat (or other food > irritants). At some point it seems like trying to go up the down > escalator. Just take the stairs. > > > -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2007 Report Share Posted June 27, 2007 Group, I think China is the largest producer of wheat worldwide, and wheat has been a prominent feature in Chinese culture for thousands of years. Z'ev do you have more information of how the gluten content has changed over the years. Any timelines for China as well as the US. -Jason > > > On Behalf Of > Wednesday, June 27, 2007 12:24 PM > > Re: question about food allergies > > To continue this line of thought, some other factors to consider: > > 1)Wheat itself has been changed by hybridization, increasing protein > and gluten content over the centuries. This may increase sensitivity > > 2) How the wheat is prepared is critical. With or without yeast in > bread, combinations with other foods or ingredients. Refined (white > flour) or whole grain flour. Couscous or bulghur wheat. > > 3) Lifestyle, chewing one's food, other stress factors. > > Personally, I think wheat gets a bad rap because few people know how > to make good bread or wheat product dishes. > > > On Jun 27, 2007, at 8:47 AM, kip wrote: > > > Al, > > > > > > > > I think the idea here is that it is the over exposure to a specific > > item > > that can create a sensitivity. Rice, which is more or less considered > > hypo-allergenic has been eaten for generations with little side > > effect. Some > > wheat varieties, however, have a higher potential in certain > > populations > > when they use the grain as a primary food source generation after > > generation. Just because people have been eating a food that is the > > only > > food their ecosystem can produce doesn't necessarily mean that a > > percentage > > of the population isn't experiencing a sensitivity to the food. > > Humans are > > experts at normalizing idiosyncrasies and chalking them up to cultural > > variation. I wonder how much cultural expression is actually food > > related. > > > > > > > > Kip > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > On Behalf Of Al Stone > > Monday, June 25, 2007 10:11 AM > > > > Re: question about food allergies > > > > > > > > For those of you who have seen improvement when gluten was removed > > from a > > patient's diet: how long did it take for symptoms to abate after > > the gluten > > was removed? > > > > Gluten sensitivity has become something of a fad diagnosis in > > recent years > > as evidenced by the numerous wheat free products available in the > > organic/natural food outlets these days. Human civilizations have > > favored > > these kinds of grains since we figured out how to plant crops in > > Egypt way > > back when (and Yellow river area in China of course). If gluten > > were so > > toxic to the majority of people, we probably wouldn't have > > flourished as we > > did once agriculture became part of our social development. > > > > So, if giving up gluten doesn't cause symptoms to abate, then we > > can safely > > presume that gluten isn't the problem. But like I asked above, how > > long > > should we remove wheat from the diet before ruling out a celiac > > disease or > > gluten sensitivity. > > > > -al. > > > > On 6/25/07, A Brameier <HYPERLINK > > " snakeoil.works%40verizon.net " snakeoil.works@-verizon.net> > > wrote: > >> > >> The question remains whether these patients can be maintained with > >> Chinese herb therapy, while continuing to eat wheat (or other food > >> irritants). At some point it seems like trying to go up the down > >> escalator. Just take the stairs. > >> > >> > >> > > > > -- > > , DAOM > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2007 Report Share Posted June 27, 2007 I have seen data on this, but I don't have access at the moment. Some friends of mine in Santa Fe who are professional Ayurvedic cooks and have their own restaurant increased my awareness on this issue. On Jun 27, 2007, at 6:23 PM, wrote: > Group, > > I think China is the largest producer of wheat worldwide, and wheat > has been > a prominent feature in Chinese culture for thousands of years. > > Z'ev do you have more information of how the gluten content has > changed over > the years. Any timelines for China as well as the US. > > -Jason > > > > > > > On Behalf Of Z'ev > Rosenberg > > Wednesday, June 27, 2007 12:24 PM > > > > Re: question about food allergies > > > > To continue this line of thought, some other factors to consider: > > > > 1)Wheat itself has been changed by hybridization, increasing protein > > and gluten content over the centuries. This may increase sensitivity > > > > 2) How the wheat is prepared is critical. With or without yeast in > > bread, combinations with other foods or ingredients. Refined (white > > flour) or whole grain flour. Couscous or bulghur wheat. > > > > 3) Lifestyle, chewing one's food, other stress factors. > > > > Personally, I think wheat gets a bad rap because few people know how > > to make good bread or wheat product dishes. > > > > > > On Jun 27, 2007, at 8:47 AM, kip wrote: > > > > > Al, > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the idea here is that it is the over exposure to a > specific > > > item > > > that can create a sensitivity. Rice, which is more or less > considered > > > hypo-allergenic has been eaten for generations with little side > > > effect. Some > > > wheat varieties, however, have a higher potential in certain > > > populations > > > when they use the grain as a primary food source generation after > > > generation. Just because people have been eating a food that is > the > > > only > > > food their ecosystem can produce doesn't necessarily mean that a > > > percentage > > > of the population isn't experiencing a sensitivity to the food. > > > Humans are > > > experts at normalizing idiosyncrasies and chalking them up to > cultural > > > variation. I wonder how much cultural expression is actually food > > > related. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kip > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > On Behalf Of Al Stone > > > Monday, June 25, 2007 10:11 AM > > > > > > Re: question about food allergies > > > > > > > > > > > > For those of you who have seen improvement when gluten was removed > > > from a > > > patient's diet: how long did it take for symptoms to abate after > > > the gluten > > > was removed? > > > > > > Gluten sensitivity has become something of a fad diagnosis in > > > recent years > > > as evidenced by the numerous wheat free products available in the > > > organic/natural food outlets these days. Human civilizations have > > > favored > > > these kinds of grains since we figured out how to plant crops in > > > Egypt way > > > back when (and Yellow river area in China of course). If gluten > > > were so > > > toxic to the majority of people, we probably wouldn't have > > > flourished as we > > > did once agriculture became part of our social development. > > > > > > So, if giving up gluten doesn't cause symptoms to abate, then we > > > can safely > > > presume that gluten isn't the problem. But like I asked above, how > > > long > > > should we remove wheat from the diet before ruling out a celiac > > > disease or > > > gluten sensitivity. > > > > > > -al. > > > > > > On 6/25/07, A Brameier <HYPERLINK > > > " snakeoil.works%40verizon.net " snakeoil.works@-verizon.net> > > > wrote: > > >> > > >> The question remains whether these patients can be maintained > with > > >> Chinese herb therapy, while continuing to eat wheat (or other > food > > >> irritants). At some point it seems like trying to go up the down > > >> escalator. Just take the stairs. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > -- > > > , DAOM > > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 My experience with removing gluten and/or wheat from a patient's diet is that the difference is noticed pretty quickly. Some patients notice after a day or two. I usually suggest a 2 week " fast " from gluten and/or wheat (depending on the individual) and then adding gluten back in. If there is a problem the patient usually feels better w/o the gluten/wheat and also dramatically feels worse when adding product back in. The adding back in should be done mindfully, rather than in a haphazard kind of way so that he/she is well aware of how they are feeling (headaches, digestive issues, itching, etc). Hope this helps, Meredith Young, CAc, MSOM, ND Integrative Health Services Shorewood, WI 53211 www.inhealthservices.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 I would add that some patients don't feel the results of gluten free for several weeks. So don't let them get discouraged once the diagnosis has been made and the new diet has been started. Doug , " natdoc48 " <natdoc48 wrote: > > My experience with removing gluten and/or wheat from a patient's diet > is that the difference is noticed pretty quickly. Some patients > notice after a day or two. I usually suggest a 2 week " fast " from > gluten and/or wheat (depending on the individual) and then adding > gluten back in. If there is a problem the patient usually feels > better w/o the gluten/wheat and also dramatically feels worse when > adding product back in. The adding back in should be done mindfully, > rather than in a haphazard kind of way so that he/she is well aware of > how they are feeling (headaches, digestive issues, itching, etc). > Hope this helps, > Meredith Young, CAc, MSOM, ND > Integrative Health Services > Shorewood, WI 53211 > www.inhealthservices.com > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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