Guest guest Posted June 26, 2007 Report Share Posted June 26, 2007 One other thought on this, Doug. " Or put another way, (I believe I am quoting Al Stone) the body can't correct a pathology with a pathology " I believe that this statement is not exactly correct. There are numerous " reactive " responses that the body generates to pathology. In addition to this one we are discussing, what about scar tissue formation? What about lymphatic accumulation? This isn't even exploring the emotional mechanism of " blocking " traumas which Upledger calls " energy cysts " , this is a very real pathogenic reaction, and as with the first two cases, is well intended but ultimately a pathogenic response to pathology. Respectfully, Yehuda Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Autos new Car Finder tool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2007 Report Share Posted June 29, 2007 Yehuda- Can you give an example of this in TCM theory (not related to Jeffrey Yuen) to back up your assertion? Where else in TCM does the body produce a pathology to counteract another pathology? -Steve On Jun 26, 2007, at 4:42 PM, yehuda frischman wrote: > One other thought on this, Doug. > > " Or put another way, (I believe I am quoting Al Stone) the body > can't correct a pathology with a pathology " > > I believe that this statement is not exactly correct. There are > numerous " reactive " responses that the body generates to pathology. > In addition to this one we are discussing, what about scar tissue > formation? What about lymphatic accumulation? This isn't even > exploring the emotional mechanism of " blocking " traumas which > Upledger calls " energy cysts " , this is a very real pathogenic > reaction, and as with the first two cases, is well intended but > ultimately a pathogenic response to pathology. > > Respectfully, > > Yehuda > > > > > > > > Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Autos > new Car Finder tool. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2007 Report Share Posted July 1, 2007 Hi Steve, The examples that I give are empirically obvious: The body clearly reacts (or more precisely overreacts) to the presence of pathogens, as is clear from the examples I listed. I am far from a scholar of Chinese medical literature, and would ask others in the group to help me answer your question, but I will give you one example: Li Dong yuan's concept of Yin fire, which to my understanding of the Pi Wei Lun, is the body's response to to damp accummulation in the presence of Spleen xu. This combination of factors disturbs the Ming Men, causing a pathogenic upward flaring of this " Yin Fire " , damaging the spleen and the Zhong Qi, and leaving the Kidneys void of Yang Qi, and therefore, cold. In this case, this pathogenic Yin Fire was the result of the body's reaction to a pathogenic accumulation of dampness, a reaction which actually pathogenically vacated the Ming Men. Is this not such an example? Respectfully, Yehuda Stephen Bonzak <stephenbonzak wrote: Yehuda- Can you give an example of this in TCM theory (not related to Jeffrey Yuen) to back up your assertion? Where else in TCM does the body produce a pathology to counteract another pathology? -Steve On Jun 26, 2007, at 4:42 PM, yehuda frischman wrote: > One other thought on this, Doug. > > " Or put another way, (I believe I am quoting Al Stone) the body > can't correct a pathology with a pathology " > > I believe that this statement is not exactly correct. There are > numerous " reactive " responses that the body generates to pathology. > In addition to this one we are discussing, what about scar tissue > formation? What about lymphatic accumulation? This isn't even > exploring the emotional mechanism of " blocking " traumas which > Upledger calls " energy cysts " , this is a very real pathogenic > reaction, and as with the first two cases, is well intended but > ultimately a pathogenic response to pathology. > > Respectfully, > > Yehuda > > > > > > > > Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Autos > new Car Finder tool. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2007 Report Share Posted July 2, 2007 Yehuda, Just curious how you treat the below (yinfire) scenario you describe? -Jason _____ On Behalf Of yehuda frischman Sunday, July 01, 2007 11:44 PM Re: pathogenic reactions to pathology Hi Steve, The examples that I give are empirically obvious: The body clearly reacts (or more precisely overreacts) to the presence of pathogens, as is clear from the examples I listed. I am far from a scholar of Chinese medical literature, and would ask others in the group to help me answer your question, but I will give you one example: Li Dong yuan's concept of Yin fire, which to my understanding of the Pi Wei Lun, is the body's response to to damp accummulation in the presence of Spleen xu. This combination of factors disturbs the Ming Men, causing a pathogenic upward flaring of this " Yin Fire " , damaging the spleen and the Zhong Qi, and leaving the Kidneys void of Yang Qi, and therefore, cold. In this case, this pathogenic Yin Fire was the result of the body's reaction to a pathogenic accumulation of dampness, a reaction which actually pathogenically vacated the Ming Men. Is this not such an example? Respectfully, Yehuda Stephen Bonzak <stephenbonzak@ <stephenbonzak%40comcast.net> comcast.net> wrote: Yehuda- Can you give an example of this in TCM theory (not related to Jeffrey Yuen) to back up your assertion? Where else in TCM does the body produce a pathology to counteract another pathology? -Steve On Jun 26, 2007, at 4:42 PM, yehuda frischman wrote: > One other thought on this, Doug. > > " Or put another way, (I believe I am quoting Al Stone) the body > can't correct a pathology with a pathology " > > I believe that this statement is not exactly correct. There are > numerous " reactive " responses that the body generates to pathology. > In addition to this one we are discussing, what about scar tissue > formation? What about lymphatic accumulation? This isn't even > exploring the emotional mechanism of " blocking " traumas which > Upledger calls " energy cysts " , this is a very real pathogenic > reaction, and as with the first two cases, is well intended but > ultimately a pathogenic response to pathology. > > Respectfully, > > Yehuda > > > > > > > > Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Autos > new Car Finder tool. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2007 Report Share Posted July 2, 2007 To quote Li Dong Yuan: " Then how to treat this? The only choice is to emplly acrid, sweet warm ingredients to supplement the center and upraise yang along with sweet cold to drain fire...Warm can eliminate intense heat. " So we would dry dampness by aromatically transforming it, while at the same time regulating the qi, nourishing the blood, and supplementing and raising the stuck Yang qi thus allowing the Yin fire to calm and drain downward, in other words, Bu Zhong Yi Qi Wan. Yehuda wrote: Yehuda, Just curious how you treat the below (yinfire) scenario you describe? -Jason _____ On Behalf Of yehuda frischman Sunday, July 01, 2007 11:44 PM Re: pathogenic reactions to pathology Hi Steve, The examples that I give are empirically obvious: The body clearly reacts (or more precisely overreacts) to the presence of pathogens, as is clear from the examples I listed. I am far from a scholar of Chinese medical literature, and would ask others in the group to help me answer your question, but I will give you one example: Li Dong yuan's concept of Yin fire, which to my understanding of the Pi Wei Lun, is the body's response to to damp accummulation in the presence of Spleen xu. This combination of factors disturbs the Ming Men, causing a pathogenic upward flaring of this " Yin Fire " , damaging the spleen and the Zhong Qi, and leaving the Kidneys void of Yang Qi, and therefore, cold. In this case, this pathogenic Yin Fire was the result of the body's reaction to a pathogenic accumulation of dampness, a reaction which actually pathogenically vacated the Ming Men. Is this not such an example? Respectfully, Yehuda Stephen Bonzak <stephenbonzak@ <stephenbonzak%40comcast.net> comcast.net> wrote: Yehuda- Can you give an example of this in TCM theory (not related to Jeffrey Yuen) to back up your assertion? Where else in TCM does the body produce a pathology to counteract another pathology? -Steve On Jun 26, 2007, at 4:42 PM, yehuda frischman wrote: > One other thought on this, Doug. > > " Or put another way, (I believe I am quoting Al Stone) the body > can't correct a pathology with a pathology " > > I believe that this statement is not exactly correct. There are > numerous " reactive " responses that the body generates to pathology. > In addition to this one we are discussing, what about scar tissue > formation? What about lymphatic accumulation? This isn't even > exploring the emotional mechanism of " blocking " traumas which > Upledger calls " energy cysts " , this is a very real pathogenic > reaction, and as with the first two cases, is well intended but > ultimately a pathogenic response to pathology. > > Respectfully, > > Yehuda > > > > > > > > Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Autos > new Car Finder tool. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2007 Report Share Posted July 2, 2007 Ok, this is my aversion to the sentence below, " the body's response to damp accumulation " ... I would see CM as using the tendencies of the five elements that creates the mechanisms of change. This " body's response " to me is the " wild-card " and not a factor in CM. Doug wrote: > > Hi Steve, > > The examples that I give are empirically obvious: The body clearly reacts (or more precisely overreacts) to the presence of pathogens, as is clear from the examples I listed. I am far from a scholar of Chinese medical literature, and would ask others in the group to help me answer your question, but I will give you one example: Li Dong yuan's concept of Yin fire, which to my understanding of the Pi Wei Lun, is the body's response to to damp accummulation in the presence of Spleen xu. This combination of factors disturbs the Ming Men, causing a pathogenic upward flaring of this " Yin Fire " , damaging the spleen and the Zhong Qi, and leaving the Kidneys void of Yang Qi, and therefore, cold. In this case, this pathogenic Yin Fire was the result of the body's reaction to a pathogenic accumulation of dampness, a reaction which actually pathogenically vacated the Ming Men. Is this not such an example? > > Respectfully, > > Yehuda > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2007 Report Share Posted July 2, 2007 Yehuda- I think what I meant to ask was give me an example of a pathological response that the body uses to " correct " another pathology. For instance, Jeffrey Yuen talks about the cold and damp that is engendered in the body during cancer as being a pathological, but helpful, response. The cold is supposed to be slowing the progression of the fire and the damp is an attempt to hold onto yin. He suggests that even though one might see signs and symptoms from a TCM perspective of yang vacuity, one should not moxa or use warming medicinals as this is going against the body's attempt to " correct " the pathology. In your example, the yin fire is a direct result, from a TCM perspective, of the congestion from the SP vacuity. Even though the heat is present, it is not a pathological response of the body to " correct " the pathology as in the above example. -Steve On Jul 2, 2007, at 12:44 AM, yehuda frischman wrote: > Hi Steve, > > The examples that I give are empirically obvious: The body clearly > reacts (or more precisely overreacts) to the presence of pathogens, > as is clear from the examples I listed. I am far from a scholar of > Chinese medical literature, and would ask others in the group to > help me answer your question, but I will give you one example: Li > Dong yuan's concept of Yin fire, which to my understanding of the > Pi Wei Lun, is the body's response to to damp accummulation in the > presence of Spleen xu. This combination of factors disturbs the > Ming Men, causing a pathogenic upward flaring of this " Yin Fire " , > damaging the spleen and the Zhong Qi, and leaving the Kidneys void > of Yang Qi, and therefore, cold. In this case, this pathogenic Yin > Fire was the result of the body's reaction to a pathogenic > accumulation of dampness, a reaction which actually pathogenically > vacated the Ming Men. Is this not such an example? > > Respectfully, > > Yehuda > > Stephen Bonzak <stephenbonzak wrote: > Yehuda- > > Can you give an example of this in TCM theory (not related to Jeffrey > Yuen) to back up your assertion? Where else in TCM does the body > produce a pathology to counteract another pathology? > > -Steve > > On Jun 26, 2007, at 4:42 PM, yehuda frischman wrote: > > > One other thought on this, Doug. > > > > " Or put another way, (I believe I am quoting Al Stone) the body > > can't correct a pathology with a pathology " > > > > I believe that this statement is not exactly correct. There are > > numerous " reactive " responses that the body generates to pathology. > > In addition to this one we are discussing, what about scar tissue > > formation? What about lymphatic accumulation? This isn't even > > exploring the emotional mechanism of " blocking " traumas which > > Upledger calls " energy cysts " , this is a very real pathogenic > > reaction, and as with the first two cases, is well intended but > > ultimately a pathogenic response to pathology. > > > > Respectfully, > > > > Yehuda > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Autos > > new Car Finder tool. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2007 Report Share Posted July 2, 2007 Y, I thought you would say BZYQT, therefore my next question is how does the pathomechanism you describe help inform your herbal prescribing. From my point of view the pathomechanism you describe is not reflected in the herbs in BZYQT. I am not saying that BZYQT does not treat this pattern, only that the elaborate pathomechanism is not reflected in the formula. I am curious how people use these stories clinically. I agree with Eric that keeping it simple is really the best way, meaning qi xu heat, end of story, otherwise at least to me all the other stuff makes little clinical sense. Comments? -Jason _____ On Behalf Of yehuda frischman Monday, July 02, 2007 10:48 AM RE: pathogenic reactions to pathology To quote Li Dong Yuan: " Then how to treat this? The only choice is to emplly acrid, sweet warm ingredients to supplement the center and upraise yang along with sweet cold to drain fire...Warm can eliminate intense heat. " So we would dry dampness by aromatically transforming it, while at the same time regulating the qi, nourishing the blood, and supplementing and raising the stuck Yang qi thus allowing the Yin fire to calm and drain downward, in other words, Bu Zhong Yi Qi Wan. Yehuda <@chinesemed <%40Chinese Medicine> icinedoc.com> wrote: Yehuda, Just curious how you treat the below (yinfire) scenario you describe? -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2007 Report Share Posted July 2, 2007 Doug, I agree, and apologize for mixing paradigms. Indeed, we need to think like Li Dong-yuan, and understand the mechanism by which the damp accumulation and weakness in the MJ has blocked the Yang Qi, has engendered this flaring up and has vacated the Ming Men, leaving the LJ vacuitous and cold. And like Li, we need to view this transformation using the 5 phases as our guide to understand this process. Indeed, he addresses this process in Book 3, chapters 2 and 3, of Pi Wei Lun. Yehuda wrote: Ok, this is my aversion to the sentence below, " the body's response to damp accumulation " ... I would see CM as using the tendencies of the five elements that creates the mechanisms of change. This " body's response " to me is the " wild-card " and not a factor in CM. Doug wrote: > > Hi Steve, > > The examples that I give are empirically obvious: The body clearly reacts (or more precisely overreacts) to the presence of pathogens, as is clear from the examples I listed. I am far from a scholar of Chinese medical literature, and would ask others in the group to help me answer your question, but I will give you one example: Li Dong yuan's concept of Yin fire, which to my understanding of the Pi Wei Lun, is the body's response to to damp accummulation in the presence of Spleen xu. This combination of factors disturbs the Ming Men, causing a pathogenic upward flaring of this " Yin Fire " , damaging the spleen and the Zhong Qi, and leaving the Kidneys void of Yang Qi, and therefore, cold. In this case, this pathogenic Yin Fire was the result of the body's reaction to a pathogenic accumulation of dampness, a reaction which actually pathogenically vacated the Ming Men. Is this not such an example? > > Respectfully, > > Yehuda > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2007 Report Share Posted July 2, 2007 Steve, I have to be careful, as my previous post pointed out, not mixing paradigms. Though I can't specifically think of examples of the body reacting pathogenically to pathogens, and using that pathogenic process to prevent greater illness, when necessary, isn't that exactly what physicians do to treat illness: by treating with substances that are toxic and even lethal for a healthy person, the pathogenically afflicted patient's body utilitizes this extreme substance to pull the body toward balance. But concerning the body itself, I know of no specific mechanism by which a pathogenic response is used to defend against a pathogen. Yehuda Stephen Bonzak <stephenbonzak wrote: Yehuda- I think what I meant to ask was give me an example of a pathological response that the body uses to " correct " another pathology. For instance, Jeffrey Yuen talks about the cold and damp that is engendered in the body during cancer as being a pathological, but helpful, response. The cold is supposed to be slowing the progression of the fire and the damp is an attempt to hold onto yin. He suggests that even though one might see signs and symptoms from a TCM perspective of yang vacuity, one should not moxa or use warming medicinals as this is going against the body's attempt to " correct " the pathology. In your example, the yin fire is a direct result, from a TCM perspective, of the congestion from the SP vacuity. Even though the heat is present, it is not a pathological response of the body to " correct " the pathology as in the above example. -Steve On Jul 2, 2007, at 12:44 AM, yehuda frischman wrote: > Hi Steve, > > The examples that I give are empirically obvious: The body clearly > reacts (or more precisely overreacts) to the presence of pathogens, > as is clear from the examples I listed. I am far from a scholar of > Chinese medical literature, and would ask others in the group to > help me answer your question, but I will give you one example: Li > Dong yuan's concept of Yin fire, which to my understanding of the > Pi Wei Lun, is the body's response to to damp accummulation in the > presence of Spleen xu. This combination of factors disturbs the > Ming Men, causing a pathogenic upward flaring of this " Yin Fire " , > damaging the spleen and the Zhong Qi, and leaving the Kidneys void > of Yang Qi, and therefore, cold. In this case, this pathogenic Yin > Fire was the result of the body's reaction to a pathogenic > accumulation of dampness, a reaction which actually pathogenically > vacated the Ming Men. Is this not such an example? > > Respectfully, > > Yehuda > > Stephen Bonzak <stephenbonzak wrote: > Yehuda- > > Can you give an example of this in TCM theory (not related to Jeffrey > Yuen) to back up your assertion? Where else in TCM does the body > produce a pathology to counteract another pathology? > > -Steve > > On Jun 26, 2007, at 4:42 PM, yehuda frischman wrote: > > > One other thought on this, Doug. > > > > " Or put another way, (I believe I am quoting Al Stone) the body > > can't correct a pathology with a pathology " > > > > I believe that this statement is not exactly correct. There are > > numerous " reactive " responses that the body generates to pathology. > > In addition to this one we are discussing, what about scar tissue > > formation? What about lymphatic accumulation? This isn't even > > exploring the emotional mechanism of " blocking " traumas which > > Upledger calls " energy cysts " , this is a very real pathogenic > > reaction, and as with the first two cases, is well intended but > > ultimately a pathogenic response to pathology. > > > > Respectfully, > > > > Yehuda > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Autos > > new Car Finder tool. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2007 Report Share Posted July 2, 2007 No need to apologize, I just needed to write down for myself what button that was pushing. doug wrote: > > > Doug, > > I agree, and apologize for mixing paradigms. Indeed, we need to think like Li Dong-yuan, and understand the mechanism by which the damp accumulation and weakness in the MJ has blocked the Yang Qi, has engendered this flaring up and has vacated the Ming Men, leaving the LJ vacuitous and cold. And like Li, we need to view this transformation using the 5 phases as our guide to understand this process. Indeed, he addresses this process in Book 3, chapters 2 and 3, of Pi Wei Lun. > > Yehuda > > > > > > > Shape in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2007 Report Share Posted July 2, 2007 Using BZYQT and Yin fire is a bit unfair as the mechanisms are often stretched. Personally, I prefer the small car going up the big hill story. Doug , " " wrote: > > Y, > > > > I thought you would say BZYQT, therefore my next question is how does the > pathomechanism you describe help inform your herbal prescribing. From my > point of view the pathomechanism you describe is not reflected in the herbs > in BZYQT. I am not saying that BZYQT does not treat this pattern, only that > the elaborate pathomechanism is not reflected in the formula. I am curious > how people use these stories clinically. I agree with Eric that keeping it > simple is really the best way, meaning qi xu heat, end of story, otherwise > at least to me all the other stuff makes little clinical sense. Comments? > > > > -Jason > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2007 Report Share Posted July 2, 2007 D, Sorry I am missing your point here. Small car??? But my question stands, if one is going to use such an elaborate pathomechanisms as Yehuda, I think it fair to ask how that translates into practice. Personally I think many pathomechanisms are stretched, but we still can determine and discuss their usefulness (or lack of). We can start one by one. Therefore, if one cannot explain how yinfire's elaborate pathomechanism translates into a clinically useful understanding and hence treatment, then IMO it is nothing more than hot air. I am all ears. -Jason _____ On Behalf Of Monday, July 02, 2007 9:57 PM Re: pathogenic reactions to pathology Using BZYQT and Yin fire is a bit unfair as the mechanisms are often stretched. Personally, I prefer the small car going up the big hill story. Doug @ <%40> , " " wrote: > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2007 Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 Well, I don't think we need or want to go through every pathomechanism one by one. I wouldn't mind knowing each of them though. There are books out there that elaborate each of one in detail and I appreciate that. Without case studies, however they remain as only words on paper. And I've seen pretty disastrous results when applied in the clinic with this kind of knowledge. I think this is what you are saying, among other things. Certainly I look forward to being able to say I have a vast amount of knowledge that I can then say I have the leisure to simplify. You seem to be 3 steps ahead of us here. If I had the experience to abandon the pathomechanisms then I would. However, now I still like having the blueprint. One can and probably should go back to the Nei Jing, but perhaps we only understand that by understanding pathomechanisms. I guess I'm reiterating what Sharon had said better earlier. One could look at pathomechanisms as the " why " of bianzheng - identifying the pattern. When the " why " becomes the justification for treatment then one (I have!) start to get in trouble. Doug , " " wrote: > > D, > > > > Sorry I am missing your point here. Small car??? > > > > But my question stands, if one is going to use such an elaborate > pathomechanisms as Yehuda, I think it fair to ask how that translates into > practice. Personally I think many pathomechanisms are stretched, but we > still can determine and discuss their usefulness (or lack of). We can start > one by one. Therefore, if one cannot explain how yinfire's elaborate > pathomechanism translates into a clinically useful understanding and hence > treatment, then IMO it is nothing more than hot air. I am all ears. > > > > -Jason > > > > _____ > > > On Behalf Of Douglas > Monday, July 02, 2007 9:57 PM > > Re: pathogenic reactions to pathology > > > > Using BZYQT and Yin fire is a bit unfair as the mechanisms are often > stretched. Personally, I prefer the small car going up the big hill story. > Doug > > @ <%40> > , " " > <@> wrote: > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2007 Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 Why not? Plus, who says we shouldn't modify the formula based on a real patient, not just a pattern? Let's look at the picture I described: Damp accumulation and Spleen Qi Xu or collapse, Yin fire manifested as increased fever after exertion, intermittant low-grade fever, especially AM, temperature higher on the palm of the hand higher than the back, spontaneous sweating, thirst with desire for warm drinks, SOB, lassitude, hates cold, and loose stool. So what do we use: 1. aromatically move the blocked qi(Chen Pi) 2. Dry dampness (Bai Zhu. Chen pi)3. Stop sweating (Huang Qi,Ren Shen, Bai Zhu) 4. strengthen the spleen(Huang Qi, Ren Shen, Bai Zhu, Zhi Gan Cao). 3.nourish the blood(Dang Gui, Huang Qi) 4. Supplement and raise the stuck Yang Qi (Huang Qi, Sheng Ma, Chai Hu) 5. Calm the Yin fire down(Ren Shen). wrote: Y, I thought you would say BZYQT, therefore my next question is how does the pathomechanism you describe help inform your herbal prescribing. From my point of view the pathomechanism you describe is not reflected in the herbs in BZYQT. I am not saying that BZYQT does not treat this pattern, only that the elaborate pathomechanism is not reflected in the formula. I am curious how people use these stories clinically. I agree with Eric that keeping it simple is really the best way, meaning qi xu heat, end of story, otherwise at least to me all the other stuff makes little clinical sense. Comments? -Jason _____ On Behalf Of yehuda frischman Monday, July 02, 2007 10:48 AM RE: pathogenic reactions to pathology To quote Li Dong Yuan: " Then how to treat this? The only choice is to emplly acrid, sweet warm ingredients to supplement the center and upraise yang along with sweet cold to drain fire...Warm can eliminate intense heat. " So we would dry dampness by aromatically transforming it, while at the same time regulating the qi, nourishing the blood, and supplementing and raising the stuck Yang qi thus allowing the Yin fire to calm and drain downward, in other words, Bu Zhong Yi Qi Wan. Yehuda <@chinesemed <%40Chinese Medicine> icinedoc.com> wrote: Yehuda, Just curious how you treat the below (yinfire) scenario you describe? -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2007 Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 Doug-- We never see perfect textbook patients, but we ALL have seen patients with symptoms of Yin fire. So in such a case, is it not intelligent to START from BZYQT, and adapt to the individuality of the patient ? When we start with classic formulas, we build with the benefit of thousands of years and billions of patients experience. Nothing succeeds like success. So why would you want to create something new if this formula works? I don't understand. Yehuda wrote: Using BZYQT and Yin fire is a bit unfair as the mechanisms are often stretched. Personally, I prefer the small car going up the big hill story. Doug , " " wrote: > > Y, > > > > I thought you would say BZYQT, therefore my next question is how does the > pathomechanism you describe help inform your herbal prescribing. From my > point of view the pathomechanism you describe is not reflected in the herbs > in BZYQT. I am not saying that BZYQT does not treat this pattern, only that > the elaborate pathomechanism is not reflected in the formula. I am curious > how people use these stories clinically. I agree with Eric that keeping it > simple is really the best way, meaning qi xu heat, end of story, otherwise > at least to me all the other stuff makes little clinical sense. Comments? > > > > -Jason > > > > > > Never miss an email again! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. Check it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2007 Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 Jason, One more thought-- In response to your statement, " I agree with Eric that keeping it simple is really the best way, meaning qi xu heat, end of story, otherwise at least to me all the other stuff makes little clinical sense. " I respectfully disagree, based on patients I have seen. I think that there is more to Yin fire than just Qi xu heat, and that has a lot to do with the pathogenesis, meaning the damp stagnation which contributed to it. Plus, I don't think you can discount the element of the Ming Men clearing out out and leaving the Kidneys empty and cold! This is collapse, not just xu. wrote: Y, I thought you would say BZYQT, therefore my next question is how does the pathomechanism you describe help inform your herbal prescribing. From my point of view the pathomechanism you describe is not reflected in the herbs in BZYQT. I am not saying that BZYQT does not treat this pattern, only that the elaborate pathomechanism is not reflected in the formula. I am curious how people use these stories clinically. . Comments? -Jason _____ On Behalf Of yehuda frischman Monday, July 02, 2007 10:48 AM RE: pathogenic reactions to pathology To quote Li Dong Yuan: " Then how to treat this? The only choice is to emplly acrid, sweet warm ingredients to supplement the center and upraise yang along with sweet cold to drain fire...Warm can eliminate intense heat. " So we would dry dampness by aromatically transforming it, while at the same time regulating the qi, nourishing the blood, and supplementing and raising the stuck Yang qi thus allowing the Yin fire to calm and drain downward, in other words, Bu Zhong Yi Qi Wan. Yehuda <@chinesemed <%40Chinese Medicine> icinedoc.com> wrote: Yehuda, Just curious how you treat the below (yinfire) scenario you describe? -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2007 Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 Y, What in BZYQT is supplementing the kidneys and dispelling cold from the lower burner? But I see no use in saying that the Ming Men is clearing out, actually this is why many Chinese descriptions of the pathomechanism of BZYQT / yinfire, completely leave this out, i.e. the heat is coming about from constraint. To summarize, if you are going to make such a big deal about the kidneys then I would hope the treatment would address it. Comments? -Jason _____ On Behalf Of yehuda frischman Tuesday, July 03, 2007 2:59 AM RE: pathogenic reactions to pathology Jason, One more thought-- In response to your statement, " I agree with Eric that keeping it simple is really the best way, meaning qi xu heat, end of story, otherwise at least to me all the other stuff makes little clinical sense. " I respectfully disagree, based on patients I have seen. I think that there is more to Yin fire than just Qi xu heat, and that has a lot to do with the pathogenesis, meaning the damp stagnation which contributed to it. Plus, I don't think you can discount the element of the Ming Men clearing out out and leaving the Kidneys empty and cold! This is collapse, not just xu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2007 Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 _____ On Behalf Of Tuesday, July 03, 2007 12:03 AM Re: pathogenic reactions to pathology Well, I don't think we need or want to go through every pathomechanism one by one. I wouldn't mind knowing each of them though. There are books out there that elaborate each of one in detail and I appreciate that. Without case studies, however they remain as only words on paper. Yes I have a few of these books in Chinese, and you are right we need examples / case studies. It is interesting that I have never seen a Pathomechanism book with case studies. I unfortunately do not have the English language, " Pathomechanism of the Heart Book. " Does this contain case studies? -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2007 Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 I don't remember any. I am finishing the Liver one from Paradigm. It was really good but no case studies. Doug : > Well, I don't think we need or want to go through every pathomechanism > one by one. I wouldn't mind knowing each of them though. There are > books out there that elaborate each of one in detail and I appreciate > that. Without case studies, however they remain as only words on > paper. > > > > Yes I have a few of these books in Chinese, and you are right we need > examples / case studies. It is interesting that I have never seen a > Pathomechanism book with case studies. I unfortunately do not have the > English language, " Pathomechanism of the Heart Book. " Does this contain case > studies? > > -Jason > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2007 Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 Doug, If you have time can you give us your impression of this book and its strengths? I have not seen them, but have heard that they are not really clinically oriented books, but more a historical perspective of pathomechanisms. Does it present different author's interpretations of the way they see things occurring? -Jason _____ On Behalf Of Tuesday, July 03, 2007 8:37 AM Re: pathogenic reactions to pathology I don't remember any. I am finishing the Liver one from Paradigm. It was really good but no case studies. Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2007 Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 I have the book and think it is great. Simply, it teaches a way of thinking, and catalogues images of patterns in a way that is largely traceable to source texts. On Jul 3, 2007, at 7:46 AM, wrote: > Doug, > > If you have time can you give us your impression of this book and its > strengths? I have not seen them, but have heard that they are not > really > clinically oriented books, but more a historical perspective of > pathomechanisms. Does it present different author's interpretations > of the > way they see things occurring? > > -Jason > > _____ > > > On Behalf Of Douglas > > Tuesday, July 03, 2007 8:37 AM > > Re: pathogenic reactions to pathology > > I don't remember any. I am finishing the Liver one from Paradigm. It > was really good but no case studies. > Doug > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2007 Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 Z'ev, Any good examples you can quote us? Does it offer multiple views on pathomechanisms throughout the ages? -Jason _____ On Behalf Of Tuesday, July 03, 2007 9:10 AM Re: Re: pathogenic reactions to pathology I have the book and think it is great. Simply, it teaches a way of thinking, and catalogues images of patterns in a way that is largely traceable to source texts. On Jul 3, 2007, at 7:46 AM, wrote: > Doug, > > If you have time can you give us your impression of this book and its > strengths? I have not seen them, but have heard that they are not > really > clinically oriented books, but more a historical perspective of > pathomechanisms. Does it present different author's interpretations > of the > way they see things occurring? > > -Jason > > _____ > > @ <%40> > [@ <%40> ] On Behalf Of Douglas > > Tuesday, July 03, 2007 8:37 AM > @ <%40> > Re: pathogenic reactions to pathology > > I don't remember any. I am finishing the Liver one from Paradigm. It > was really good but no case studies. > Doug > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2007 Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 I have the book here so I'll answer briefly. For example, each mechanism has what they call Literature Review or 2 or 3 quotes from other books. For Liver Depression Transforming into Fire from the Su Wen In cases of liver heat disease... when qi moves counterflow, the result is headache and dizziness, and heat that follows the liver vessel upward to surge into the head There are other qotes from sheng ji zong lu (sages salvation records) on nosebleed... The liver stores blood and governs qi. When qi and blood have both contracted heat, this causes qi spillage and as a result, frenetic blood movement. This manifests in nosebleed. and Dan Xi Shou Jing (Dan-xi hand mirror) on rib-side pain anger can cause severe counterflow and lever depression and wood exuberance, alternatively, indecisive stategizing and preoccupation can cause wind to strike the liver. Both of these lead to wood exuberance engendering fire and to acute pain in the liver from fire exuberance. each of these is followed by a short " explanation " the whole book has the Chinese above the English... should be perfect for you, Jason. Doug > Z'ev, > > > > Any good examples you can quote us? Does it offer multiple views on > pathomechanisms throughout the ages? > > > > -Jason > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2007 Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 Thanks Doug.. _____ On Behalf Of Tuesday, July 03, 2007 10:34 AM Re: pathogenic reactions to pathology I have the book here so I'll answer briefly. For example, each mechanism has what they call Literature Review or 2 or 3 quotes from other books. For Liver Depression Transforming into Fire from the Su Wen In cases of liver heat disease... when qi moves counterflow, the result is headache and dizziness, and heat that follows the liver vessel upward to surge into the head There are other qotes from sheng ji zong lu (sages salvation records) on nosebleed... The liver stores blood and governs qi. When qi and blood have both contracted heat, this causes qi spillage and as a result, frenetic blood movement. This manifests in nosebleed. and Dan Xi Shou Jing (Dan-xi hand mirror) on rib-side pain anger can cause severe counterflow and lever depression and wood exuberance, alternatively, indecisive stategizing and preoccupation can cause wind to strike the liver. Both of these lead to wood exuberance engendering fire and to acute pain in the liver from fire exuberance. each of these is followed by a short " explanation " the whole book has the Chinese above the English... should be perfect for you, Jason. Doug > Z'ev, > > > > Any good examples you can quote us? Does it offer multiple views on > pathomechanisms throughout the ages? > > > > -Jason > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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