Guest guest Posted July 4, 2007 Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 Hi Jason, I thought long and hard about that question, and have come to the assumed conclusion that Ren Shen does that. I deduce that from the fact that Ren Shen strongly supplements the Yuan (original) Qi, which is closely related to Jing (except in the form of Qi and not fluid) which comes from the Kidneys. (See Nan Jing chapter 66 for the relationship between Yuan Qi and the Ming Men). In addition it treats Qi collapse. Now even though in the Materiae Medica that I have, it doesn't list it as entering the Kidney, but just the Lung and spleen in the old Bensky and Chen, and Lung Spleen and Heart in Yeung, nonetheless, because it supplements Qi and Yang, and is commonly used in formulas treat Kd Yang Xu, doesn't it seem to follow that it is what Li had in mind? Yehuda wrote: Y, What in BZYQT is supplementing the kidneys and dispelling cold from the lower burner? But I see no use in saying that the Ming Men is clearing out, actually this is why many Chinese descriptions of the pathomechanism of BZYQT / yinfire, completely leave this out, i.e. the heat is coming about from constraint. To summarize, if you are going to make such a big deal about the kidneys then I would hope the treatment would address it. Comments? -Jason _____ On Behalf Of yehuda frischman Tuesday, July 03, 2007 2:59 AM RE: pathogenic reactions to pathology Jason, One more thought-- In response to your statement, " I agree with Eric that keeping it simple is really the best way, meaning qi xu heat, end of story, otherwise at least to me all the other stuff makes little clinical sense. " I respectfully disagree, based on patients I have seen. I think that there is more to Yin fire than just Qi xu heat, and that has a lot to do with the pathogenesis, meaning the damp stagnation which contributed to it. Plus, I don't think you can discount the element of the Ming Men clearing out out and leaving the Kidneys empty and cold! This is collapse, not just xu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2007 Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 Y, I think that your response demonstrates my point which I do consider is somewhat story telling / playing the circular pathomechanism game. It is nice to try to hypothesize what LDY is thinking but I have a hard time believing your scenario. For example (in regard to BZYQT / yinfire): 1) there are no kidney yang xu signs / symptoms 2) there are no cold in lower burner signs / symptoms 3) ren shen does not supplement kidney yang 4) ren shen is not " commonly used in formulas treat Kd Yang Xu " at least in the formulas that I have studied. All major rxs in F & S do not include it. 5) LDY actually mentions what ren shen does in the BZYQT as " eliminating damp-heat and distressing heat " I think this demonstrates quite clearly the problem with these complex pathomechanisms. It creates patterns that don't really exist and then people start adding herbs for the supposed patterns. For example if there were really cold in the lower burner with kidney yang xu I think rou gui or something would have been used. But that is my opinion, if this kind of story works for you then awesome! :-) -Jason _____ On Behalf Of yehuda frischman Wednesday, July 04, 2007 1:02 AM RE: pathogenic reactions to pathology Hi Jason, I thought long and hard about that question, and have come to the assumed conclusion that Ren Shen does that. I deduce that from the fact that Ren Shen strongly supplements the Yuan (original) Qi, which is closely related to Jing (except in the form of Qi and not fluid) which comes from the Kidneys. (See Nan Jing chapter 66 for the relationship between Yuan Qi and the Ming Men). In addition it treats Qi collapse. Now even though in the Materiae Medica that I have, it doesn't list it as entering the Kidney, but just the Lung and spleen in the old Bensky and Chen, and Lung Spleen and Heart in Yeung, nonetheless, because it supplements Qi and Yang, and is commonly used in formulas treat Kd Yang Xu, doesn't it seem to follow that it is what Li had in mind? Yehuda <@chinesemed <%40Chinese Medicine> icinedoc.com> wrote: Y, What in BZYQT is supplementing the kidneys and dispelling cold from the lower burner? But I see no use in saying that the Ming Men is clearing out, actually this is why many Chinese descriptions of the pathomechanism of BZYQT / yinfire, completely leave this out, i.e. the heat is coming about from constraint. To summarize, if you are going to make such a big deal about the kidneys then I would hope the treatment would address it. Comments? -Jason _____ @ <%40> [@ <%40> ] On Behalf Of yehuda frischman Tuesday, July 03, 2007 2:59 AM @ <%40> RE: pathogenic reactions to pathology Jason, One more thought-- In response to your statement, " I agree with Eric that keeping it simple is really the best way, meaning qi xu heat, end of story, otherwise at least to me all the other stuff makes little clinical sense. " I respectfully disagree, based on patients I have seen. I think that there is more to Yin fire than just Qi xu heat, and that has a lot to do with the pathogenesis, meaning the damp stagnation which contributed to it. Plus, I don't think you can discount the element of the Ming Men clearing out out and leaving the Kidneys empty and cold! This is collapse, not just xu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2007 Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 On what it is in Bu Zhong Yi Qi Tang that affects the kidneys, perhaps Yehuda is right is that Ren Shen is the agent, or perhaps the formula as a whole; no matter. The principle is that earth controls water. Support the middle, the earth, the spleen and stomach, and find that the lower jiao, the water, the kidneys are sustained. A dramatic but non-classical demonstration of this principle came in the study of diabetes. When the pancreas (read Chinese Spleen, middle jiao) was surgically removed from dogs, they quickly developed the hallmark sign of diabetes, polyuria, a kidney pathology. Take away earth, water flows out ceaselessly. When pancreatic tissue was re-introduced under the skin, symptoms improved. Restore earth hold back water. This result would not have surprized Li Long-yuan. Carl Ploss Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Answers - Check it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 Carl, I do not discount that in 5 phases that earth restrains water. I do though have no idea how this is supposed to apply to BZYQT. I would like to hear more. But just because there are correlations between 2 organs (i.e. earth and kidney) (via 5 element (circular relationships), experiment on pancreases etc) gives zero proof that in the case that we are discussing that there is actual kidney involvement. Of course in CM there are plenty of pathologies that involve the kidney and the spleen, There are plenty of physiological functions and relationships that link the two. As a matter of fact every single organ in some way or another can be linked to any other organ. 5 phases is notorious for its circular relationships (for better or worse) For example, Normal function: (sheng) Earth generates Metal Fire generates earth (xiang ke) Earth restrains Water Wood restrains earth Pathology: (If earth is weak) (xiang wu) mutual rebellion Earth (conversely) restrains wood (wood is inherently weak) Water (conversely) restrains earth (earth is inherently weak) (there are of course other pathologies if earth is too strong) One can link every single organ to the earth, but that in no way means that every time one has a earth problem that all of those organs are affected. One still must show pathologies of the organ to have involvement (at least this is basic CM). Therefore, if you want to use a 5 phases analogy to explain how there is kidney involvement (especially yang xu with cold in the lower burner) I think it would be helpful to show s/s to describe what is happened instead of just empty theory that says, " yes there is a relationship " - obviously there is a relationship (sometimes), but isn't it true that we can say that about any two phases? Respectfully, - _____ On Behalf Of carl ploss Wednesday, July 04, 2007 10:01 PM Re: pathogenic reactions to pathology On what it is in Bu Zhong Yi Qi Tang that affects the kidneys, perhaps Yehuda is right is that Ren Shen is the agent, or perhaps the formula as a whole; no matter. The principle is that earth controls water. Support the middle, the earth, the spleen and stomach, and find that the lower jiao, the water, the kidneys are sustained. A dramatic but non-classical demonstration of this principle came in the study of diabetes. When the pancreas (read Chinese Spleen, middle jiao) was surgically removed from dogs, they quickly developed the hallmark sign of diabetes, polyuria, a kidney pathology. Take away earth, water flows out ceaselessly. When pancreatic tissue was re-introduced under the skin, symptoms improved. Restore earth hold back water. This result would not have surprized Li Long-yuan. Carl Ploss Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Answers - Check it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 Since we're on the topic of mingmen fire, can we compare " KD yang " with " Mingmen fire " ? Are they synonymous? Are they just different terms for different time periods and separate philosophies? If they are identical, then isn't the issue that KD yang/Ming men fire flees from its home (between the KDs or on the right side of the KD, which ever way you look at it), because dampness and qi-depressive heat invade its space and cause the ministerial fire to rise upwards, disturbing the imperial fire? So, the KD itself does not become vacuous because of depletion/exhaustion but out of vacancy? In that case, using Li Gao's theory, since the " earth " phase (SP/ST) stabilizes and harmonizes the other four phases/(zang fu), the ministerial fire ( " little heart " ) can return to its home in the lower jiao, once the axle on the wheel is fixed. In this case of disturbance of ministerial fire, if you tonify the KD yang (a zang-fu term) or ministerial fire with heating herbs, you may aggravate the imperial fire even more, causing more severe shen disorder signs. The most common modification that I've seen of BZYQT is the addition of Huang Bai, which clears damp-heat from the lower jiao. Adding hot herbs to the lower jiao would put a flame to the fat so to speak. That's my take on why BZYQT doesn't include KD yang tonics. The elegance of the rx is that it goes for the root of the problem as well as the third branch of pathology. Thoughts? On 7/5/07, wrote: > > Carl, > > I do not discount that in 5 phases that earth restrains water. I do though > have no idea how this is supposed to apply to BZYQT. I would like to hear > more. But just because there are correlations between 2 organs (i.e. earth > and kidney) (via 5 element (circular relationships), experiment on > pancreases etc) gives zero proof that in the case that we are discussing > that there is actual kidney involvement. > > Of course in CM there are plenty of pathologies that involve the kidney > and > the spleen, There are plenty of physiological functions and relationships > that link the two. As a matter of fact every single organ in some way or > another can be linked to any other organ. 5 phases is notorious for its > circular relationships (for better or worse) For example, > > Normal function: > > (sheng) Earth generates Metal > > Fire generates earth > > (xiang ke) Earth restrains Water > > Wood restrains earth > > Pathology: > > (If earth is weak) > > (xiang wu) mutual rebellion > > Earth (conversely) restrains wood (wood is inherently weak) > > Water (conversely) restrains earth (earth is inherently weak) > > (there are of course other pathologies if earth is too strong) > > One can link every single organ to the earth, but that in no way means > that > every time one has a earth problem that all of those organs are affected. > One still must show pathologies of the organ to have involvement (at least > this is basic CM). > > Therefore, if you want to use a 5 phases analogy to explain how there is > kidney involvement (especially yang xu with cold in the lower burner) I > think it would be helpful to show s/s to describe what is happened instead > of just empty theory that says, " yes there is a relationship " - obviously > there is a relationship (sometimes), but isn't it true that we can say > that > about any two phases? > > Respectfully, > > - > > _____ > > <%40> > [ <%40>\ ] > On Behalf Of carl ploss > Wednesday, July 04, 2007 10:01 PM > <%40> > Re: pathogenic reactions to pathology > > On what it is in Bu Zhong Yi Qi Tang that affects the kidneys, perhaps > Yehuda is right is that Ren Shen is the agent, or perhaps the formula as a > whole; no matter. The principle is that earth controls water. Support the > middle, the earth, the spleen and stomach, and find that the lower jiao, > the > water, the kidneys are sustained. > > A dramatic but non-classical demonstration of this principle came in the > study of diabetes. When the pancreas (read Chinese Spleen, middle jiao) > was > surgically removed from dogs, they quickly developed the hallmark sign of > diabetes, polyuria, a kidney pathology. Take away earth, water flows out > ceaselessly. When pancreatic tissue was re-introduced under the skin, > symptoms improved. Restore earth hold back water. > > This result would not have surprized Li Long-yuan. > > Carl Ploss > > > Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who > knows. > Answers - Check it out. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 John, Thanks for your input… Life gate (Mingmen) fire has multiple meanings over the years. For example, in the ling shu chapter 5 it says, “ " Tai yang (channel) has its origin is in reaching yin (Bl-67), it is bound to the life gate, and the life gate is the eye " but the most popular is of course kidney’s equally life gate. What the life gate fire really equates is debatable over the years. It is not though directly correlated to ministerial fire. There are multiple views, here is a summary from a Chinese text discussing life gate fire: “In clinical practice we see patients with mingmen fire weakness. This disease pattern is pretty much identical to the pattern of kidney yang vacuity. Treatment is to give herbs to boost the mingmen fire. Again these mainly have the function of boosting kidney yang. This is due to mingmen fire reflecting the function of kidney yang (including the fx adrenal gland cortex), It is qi that is congenitally stored. It is the source of human body's life cycle / foundation of life. The crux of the meaning is that it generates life. Because of the nature of the emphasis of the yang qi within the kidney it is called the mingmen. (rough translation)” But you are right in that there is a relationship between the two, meaning ministerial fire (according to some) comes from life gate. I also somewhat agree with your statement, “The elegance of the rx is that it goes for the root of the problem as well as the third branch of pathology.” And your description in general of yinfire makes sense. Yes BZYQT essentially treats the root. But what about this 2nd (mystery) step? Why is it needed? What evidence do we have that it is even involved except for the description that we are using to say that it is? The only evidence we have that it is involved is the description of pathomechanism for yinfire that we are quoting. If you take out the story, which I am suggesting we do to properly evaluate this situation, then what stands? Side note: Li gao actually uses rou gui for a modification of BZYQT when there is extreme cold. To sum up: I think using the pathomechanism that explains BZYQT to proof it actually exists, is circular logic. But check this one set of s/s and pathomechanism! Patient presents with SOB, generalized fever and vexation, large surging pulse, headache, incessant thirst, the skin is unable to stand wind or cold and generates cold and heat. This is from spleen qi deficiency. We know that spleen engenders Lung. Therefore we have Lung qi deficiency (unable to stand wind or cold, and feeling of fever and chills, and SOB). Since we know that Lungs circulate qi, the deficiency starts to create stagnation (stagnation coming from deficiency) . Therefore we start to have qi stagnation in the upper burner. We also know from Zhu dan xi that things that stagnate tend to turn to heat. Therefore we start to get signs of fire that is surging upward (head = headache) and in the upper burner especially affecting the heart and sovereign fire (agitation, fever, thirst, surging pulse, headache). I call this “stagnant deficiency fire” and the treatment is of course treat the root with BZYQT. The set of s/s are straight from LDY’s pi wei lun. The pathomechanism well is complete MSU, but the treatment works 100%. Notice that there are no signs of qi stagnation in the upper burner. This is the problem! Comments? Respectfully, - _____ On Behalf Of Thursday, July 05, 2007 8:31 AM Re: Re: pathogenic reactions to pathology Since we're on the topic of mingmen fire, can we compare " KD yang " with " Mingmen fire " ? Are they synonymous? Are they just different terms for different time periods and separate philosophies? If they are identical, then isn't the issue that KD yang/Ming men fire flees from its home (between the KDs or on the right side of the KD, which ever way you look at it), because dampness and qi-depressive heat invade its space and cause the ministerial fire to rise upwards, disturbing the imperial fire? So, the KD itself does not become vacuous because of depletion/exhaustion but out of vacancy? In that case, using Li Gao's theory, since the " earth " phase (SP/ST) stabilizes and harmonizes the other four phases/(zang fu), the ministerial fire ( " little heart " ) can return to its home in the lower jiao, once the axle on the wheel is fixed. In this case of disturbance of ministerial fire, if you tonify the KD yang (a zang-fu term) or ministerial fire with heating herbs, you may aggravate the imperial fire even more, causing more severe shen disorder signs. The most common modification that I've seen of BZYQT is the addition of Huang Bai, which clears damp-heat from the lower jiao. Adding hot herbs to the lower jiao would put a flame to the fat so to speak. That's my take on why BZYQT doesn't include KD yang tonics. The elegance of the rx is that it goes for the root of the problem as well as the third branch of pathology. Thoughts? On 7/5/07, <@chinesemed <%40Chinese Medicine> icinedoc.com> wrote: > > Carl, > > I do not discount that in 5 phases that earth restrains water. I do though > have no idea how this is supposed to apply to BZYQT. I would like to hear > more. But just because there are correlations between 2 organs (i.e. earth > and kidney) (via 5 element (circular relationships), experiment on > pancreases etc) gives zero proof that in the case that we are discussing > that there is actual kidney involvement. > > Of course in CM there are plenty of pathologies that involve the kidney > and > the spleen, There are plenty of physiological functions and relationships > that link the two. As a matter of fact every single organ in some way or > another can be linked to any other organ. 5 phases is notorious for its > circular relationships (for better or worse) For example, > > Normal function: > > (sheng) Earth generates Metal > > Fire generates earth > > (xiang ke) Earth restrains Water > > Wood restrains earth > > Pathology: > > (If earth is weak) > > (xiang wu) mutual rebellion > > Earth (conversely) restrains wood (wood is inherently weak) > > Water (conversely) restrains earth (earth is inherently weak) > > (there are of course other pathologies if earth is too strong) > > One can link every single organ to the earth, but that in no way means > that > every time one has a earth problem that all of those organs are affected. > One still must show pathologies of the organ to have involvement (at least > this is basic CM). > > Therefore, if you want to use a 5 phases analogy to explain how there is > kidney involvement (especially yang xu with cold in the lower burner) I > think it would be helpful to show s/s to describe what is happened instead > of just empty theory that says, " yes there is a relationship " - obviously > there is a relationship (sometimes), but isn't it true that we can say > that > about any two phases? > > Respectfully, > > - > > _____ > > @ <%40> <%40> > [@ <%40> <%40>] > On Behalf Of carl ploss > Wednesday, July 04, 2007 10:01 PM > @ <%40> <%40> > Re: pathogenic reactions to pathology > > On what it is in Bu Zhong Yi Qi Tang that affects the kidneys, perhaps > Yehuda is right is that Ren Shen is the agent, or perhaps the formula as a > whole; no matter. The principle is that earth controls water. Support the > middle, the earth, the spleen and stomach, and find that the lower jiao, > the > water, the kidneys are sustained. > > A dramatic but non-classical demonstration of this principle came in the > study of diabetes. When the pancreas (read Chinese Spleen, middle jiao) > was > surgically removed from dogs, they quickly developed the hallmark sign of > diabetes, polyuria, a kidney pathology. Take away earth, water flows out > ceaselessly. When pancreatic tissue was re-introduced under the skin, > symptoms improved. Restore earth hold back water. > > This result would not have surprized Li Long-yuan. > > Carl Ploss > > > Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who > knows. > Answers - Check it out. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2007 Report Share Posted July 6, 2007 If the question is how a formula like BZYQT could help resolve a kidney patholgy, earth restraining water is a possible explanation, or more simply strengthen yang to preserve yin. My comment is made in the context of an expert practitioner already proposing this course of action. What could he be thinking of? An untreated diabetic used to waste away with extreme yin deficiency, constant urination, and constant thirst. Insulin acts as a middle jiao yang tonic and thus resembles BZYQT. Insulin treats diabetic yin vacuity in the kidneys with remarkable success, proof that strongly tonifying the middle can supplement lower jiao yin vacuity. Does it always? I don't know. Should insulin be tried with some kinds of dialysis patients? Maybe. Sincerely, Carl Ploss Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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