Guest guest Posted July 7, 2007 Report Share Posted July 7, 2007 Jason, You said: I personally consider Spleen qi xu as a pattern, the dizziness I would say would be the disease (or chief manifestation). I guess I see the PM as how the Spleen qi xu actually causes dizziness. I agree with this breakdown and that generally the accepted meaning of PM is the process by which disease arises and develops. My example from the SHL of phlegm and rheum being treated with warm herbs was meant to be seen in a bigger context. Actions and reactions come about because of the varying natures of things in the world and it is these interactions that is the basis for PM or even disease causes or disease manifestation etc. That is why I threw in the word physiology in my earlier post. It was an attempt to give some overlying word for the process by which a living organism interacts in the world, which to me implies and includes the idea of pathomechanisms. I would say that the pattern of Spleen qi xu simply states which organ is involved in this pathomechanism and that the pathomechanism is of a xu type. You quoted " all qi4 huffing and depression is ascribed to the lung. " - and said that you thought the Lung is the pathomechanism (PM). I would not say that the Lung is the PM in this example. First of all if we are to assume the " bing ji " in that chapter of the Nei Jing means the same as " bing ji " today (pathomechanism) then I would say it is difficult for me to understand what the pathomechanism here refers to. In this case i think we have to read what the NJ says about the nature of the lung and its functions to build an understanding of the pathomechanism involved here. " all diseases with aching pain and swelling of the instep, and fright are ascribed to fire " - Fire is the PM. To me fire is the agent. What exactly the PM is is a mystery to me, but again i would suggest that for this we need to look back at what the NJ says about fire, the heart perhaps and it related channel disorders, and more. In fact using the modern definition of pathomechanism, it doesn't seem that this chapter discusses PM but rather wants us to use what we know about these symptoms, agents and organs to deduce the PM. Tai Yang wind-strike would also not be a pathomechanism, but in my understanding, it implies one. Comments, thoughts? Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 I can't help to think that people are getting confused with semantics & details that may or may not have much to do with clinical use. There's a chinese saying that goes: 'Shang Han saved a lot of people and killed a lot of people'. I believe, as I was taught, that the classics were terse for a reason, like parables, a ingenious (maybe?) filtering mechanisim. Geoff , " " wrote: > > just because the SHL doesn't explicitly state " would be silly. But all the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 I was just thinking today it is interesting that the two times i heard Mitchell talk about SHL he basically taught Huang Huang type information. I do not know Mitchell but wandering if he also see that information as the most clinically useful or accessible way of learning SHL - G Hudson Sunday, July 08, 2007 10:16 AM Re: SHL and Pathomechanisms I can't help to think that people are getting confused with semantics & details that may or may not have much to do with clinical use. There's a chinese saying that goes: 'Shang Han saved a lot of people and killed a lot of people'. I believe, as I was taught, that the classics were terse for a reason, like parables, a ingenious (maybe?) filtering mechanisim. Geoff , " " wrote: > > just because the SHL doesn't explicitly state " would be silly. But all the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2007 Report Share Posted July 9, 2007 Geoff, You are correct we are getting a bit involved in this semantical issue. I think though if we are going to discuss the value of pathomechanisms in the clinic, which I think is a very worthwhile topic, we all need to be talking about the same thing. Clearly people on the list have very different views on what the term means, therefore unless we can come to a common understanding it makes it very difficult to evaluate. Sorry if our conversation was too detailed. -Jason _____ On Behalf Of G Hudson Sunday, July 08, 2007 11:16 AM Re: SHL and Pathomechanisms I can't help to think that people are getting confused with semantics & details that may or may not have much to do with clinical use. There's a chinese saying that goes: 'Shang Han saved a lot of people and killed a lot of people'. I believe, as I was taught, that the classics were terse for a reason, like parables, a ingenious (maybe?) filtering mechanisim. Geoff @ <%40> , " " wrote: > > just because the SHL doesn't explicitly state " would be silly. But all the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2007 Report Share Posted July 9, 2007 Michael, I totally agree with what you say. I think the issue is that the term " pathomechanism " has developed quite a bit since the NeiJing. Now it is a much more involved term, including much more of the " whole " story behind " the why " . Anyone else have other ideas on this? A basic modern definition (from a Chinese dictionary) is " the disease's mechanism for its generation, development, and transmutations. " Clearly something like spleen qi xu is only a fraction of what people understand (in modern times) as the pathomechanism. -Jason _____ On Behalf Of fitzms Saturday, July 07, 2007 10:11 PM SHL and Pathomechanisms Jason, You said: I personally consider Spleen qi xu as a pattern, the dizziness I would say would be the disease (or chief manifestation). I guess I see the PM as how the Spleen qi xu actually causes dizziness. I agree with this breakdown and that generally the accepted meaning of PM is the process by which disease arises and develops. My example from the SHL of phlegm and rheum being treated with warm herbs was meant to be seen in a bigger context. Actions and reactions come about because of the varying natures of things in the world and it is these interactions that is the basis for PM or even disease causes or disease manifestation etc. That is why I threw in the word physiology in my earlier post. It was an attempt to give some overlying word for the process by which a living organism interacts in the world, which to me implies and includes the idea of pathomechanisms. I would say that the pattern of Spleen qi xu simply states which organ is involved in this pathomechanism and that the pathomechanism is of a xu type. You quoted " all qi4 huffing and depression is ascribed to the lung. " - and said that you thought the Lung is the pathomechanism (PM). I would not say that the Lung is the PM in this example. First of all if we are to assume the " bing ji " in that chapter of the Nei Jing means the same as " bing ji " today (pathomechanism) then I would say it is difficult for me to understand what the pathomechanism here refers to. In this case i think we have to read what the NJ says about the nature of the lung and its functions to build an understanding of the pathomechanism involved here. " all diseases with aching pain and swelling of the instep, and fright are ascribed to fire " - Fire is the PM. To me fire is the agent. What exactly the PM is is a mystery to me, but again i would suggest that for this we need to look back at what the NJ says about fire, the heart perhaps and it related channel disorders, and more. In fact using the modern definition of pathomechanism, it doesn't seem that this chapter discusses PM but rather wants us to use what we know about these symptoms, agents and organs to deduce the PM. Tai Yang wind-strike would also not be a pathomechanism, but in my understanding, it implies one. Comments, thoughts? Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2007 Report Share Posted July 9, 2007 I think a definition of pathomechanism that we can all get our teeth into is necessary. In my classes, a pathomechanism = diease cause + disruption of normal physiology + sign/symptom. So in the dizziness example Jason gave above one could imagine, for instance, that dietary irregularities damaged the spleen qi which led to an inability to raise the clear yang to the head which led to dizziness. The good thing about pthomechanisms, in my opinion, is that they help practitioners get to a more precise herbal formula than if you just think about pattern diagnosis. The person above has spleen qi vacuity. If you just apply herbal formulas without thinking about the pathomechanism, you might think that si jun zi tang would be appropriate. If you think about the pathomechanism, then you see that clearly a formula that raises clear yang would work better, so bu zhong yi qi tang would be better. Not that the first formula would not help, but that the second formula would help in a shorter period of time because the appropriate " target " had been hit. -Steve On Jul 9, 2007, at 9:04 AM, wrote: > Michael, > > I totally agree with what you say. I think the issue is that the term > " pathomechanism " has developed quite a bit since the NeiJing. Now > it is a > much more involved term, including much more of the " whole " story > behind > " the why " . Anyone else have other ideas on this? A basic modern > definition > (from a Chinese dictionary) is " the disease's mechanism for its > generation, > development, and transmutations. " Clearly something like spleen qi > xu is > only a fraction of what people understand (in modern times) as the > pathomechanism. > > -Jason > > _____ > > > On Behalf Of fitzms > Saturday, July 07, 2007 10:11 PM > > SHL and Pathomechanisms > > Jason, > > You said: I personally consider Spleen qi xu as a pattern, the > dizziness I would say > would be the disease (or chief manifestation). I guess I see the PM > as how > the Spleen qi xu actually causes dizziness. > > I agree with this breakdown and that generally the accepted meaning of > PM is the process by which disease arises and develops. My example > from the SHL of phlegm and rheum being treated with warm herbs was > meant to be seen in a bigger context. Actions and reactions come about > because of the varying natures of things in the world and it is these > interactions that is the basis for PM or even disease causes or > disease manifestation etc. That is why I threw in the word physiology > in my earlier post. It was an attempt to give some overlying word > for the process by which a living organism interacts in the world, > which to me implies and includes the idea of pathomechanisms. > I would say that the pattern of Spleen qi xu simply states which organ > is involved in this pathomechanism and that the pathomechanism is of a > xu type. > You quoted " all qi4 huffing and depression is ascribed to the lung. " - > and said that you thought > the Lung is the pathomechanism (PM). > > I would not say that the Lung is the PM in this example. First of all > if we are to assume the " bing ji " in that chapter of the Nei Jing > means the same as " bing ji " today (pathomechanism) then I would say it > is difficult for me to understand what the pathomechanism here refers > to. In this case i think we have to read what the NJ says about the > nature of the lung and its functions to build an understanding of the > pathomechanism involved here. > > " all diseases with aching pain and swelling of the instep, and > fright are > ascribed to fire " - Fire is the PM. > To me fire is the agent. What exactly the PM is is a mystery to me, > but again i would suggest that for this we need to look back at what > the NJ says about fire, the heart perhaps and it related channel > disorders, and more. In fact using the modern definition of > pathomechanism, it doesn't seem that this chapter discusses PM but > rather wants us to use what we know about these symptoms, agents and > organs to deduce the PM. > Tai Yang wind-strike would also not be a pathomechanism, but in my > understanding, it implies one. > > Comments, thoughts? > > Michael > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2007 Report Share Posted July 10, 2007 No problem Jason! I'd say it's about time to just pick something clinically relevant, move on, and let me know when the dust settles. I'll be in the corner gnashing my teeth waiting for the poll to come out ;-) Geoff , " " wrote: > > Geoff, > > > > You are correct we are getting a bit involved in this semantical issue. I > think though if we are going to discuss the value of pathomechanisms in the > clinic, which I think is a very worthwhile topic, we all need to be talking > about the same thing. Clearly people on the list have very different views > on what the term means, therefore unless we can come to a common > understanding it makes it very difficult to evaluate. Sorry if our > conversation was too detailed. > > > > -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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