Guest guest Posted July 13, 2007 Report Share Posted July 13, 2007 Anyone use or know about estriol as an alternative for estrogen for menopause or estrogen sensitive cancers? is it a viable alternate and is it available? I have a very sad case (as most cancer cases are) of a 38 year old woman who had cervical cancer a couple years or so ago. She's now on tamoxifen but of course that has completely disrupted her life in all ways, love, work and activity. She's wondering whether to stop the tamoxifen and risk full blown recurrence of cancer. At this point there is only a small metastasis on one of her lungs. She asked about estriol as a weaker estrogen alternative and one that according to what I've read on the internet has little or no cancer sensitivity. I should know about it but alas, I don't and she wanted to know about it. Michael Tierra www.planetherbs.com _____ << ella for Spam Control >> has removed 1256 Spam messages and set aside 1076 Newsletters for me You can use it too - and it's FREE! www.ellaforspam.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2007 Report Share Posted July 15, 2007 Dear Michael, A successful approach has been to use tri-estrogen (available from compounding pharmacies, made up of the 3 estrogens : Estriol, Estradiol and Estrone, in a ratio of 80/10/10. There was a book written about it a number of years ago by the late MD John Lee. I also know that Jonathan Wright, MD has been promoting tri-estrogen as part of a protocol to help peri and post menopausal women as well as for years. Here's his site: http://www.tahoma-clinic.com/. Wright is a very informed and very brave MD, who has refused to be intimidated by the FDA, which has raided his offices on multiple occasions. Yehuda Michael Tierra <mtierra wrote: Anyone use or know about estriol as an alternative for estrogen for menopause or estrogen sensitive cancers? is it a viable alternate and is it available? I have a very sad case (as most cancer cases are) of a 38 year old woman who had cervical cancer a couple years or so ago. She's now on tamoxifen but of course that has completely disrupted her life in all ways, love, work and activity. She's wondering whether to stop the tamoxifen and risk full blown recurrence of cancer. At this point there is only a small metastasis on one of her lungs. She asked about estriol as a weaker estrogen alternative and one that according to what I've read on the internet has little or no cancer sensitivity. I should know about it but alas, I don't and she wanted to know about it. Michael Tierra www.planetherbs.com _____ << ella for Spam Control >> has removed 1256 Spam messages and set aside 1076 Newsletters for me You can use it too - and it's FREE! www.ellaforspam.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2007 Report Share Posted July 15, 2007 Dear Michael and Yehuda, I agree with Yehuda on the Tri-Est. It really seems to be a great combination. I would highly recommend adding some progesterone into the treatment though. All sex hormones work in together to balance the effects of the anothers. A person can have relatively high hormone levels safely if they are in balance. That same person could be in grave danger of cellular proliferation at a much lower overall hormone level if the estrogens are not balanced with progesterone. Testing is the key to finding the balance for this patient. I would suggest a blood test to find out where her levels of estradiol, progesterone and testosterone are. Depending on what the numbers say, bring her up to a more youthful level using bio identical progesterone testosterone and Tri-Est. I know there is a lot of conflicting info regarding hormone replacement and safety, but at this point, I believe the problems associated with HRT are with the types of hormones used and the way they were administered. The studies that showed the " dangers " of HRT used synthetic hormones that were not balanced with the other sex hormones. Primerine is a horror story it's by itself. It has in it many estrogens that are much more bio-active than the estrogens normally found in a human. These estrogens send a strong signal for tissue growth. Given that the studies were not balancing the super strong estrogens with the appropriate amount of the estrogen antagonist progesterone, it would be obvious that participants would have abnormal growth patterns. Another consideration with all patients is the aromatase enzyme with converts testosterone to very strong growth promoting high density estrogens. Unfortunately this enzyme tends to up regulate as people get older and IMHO is a major issue with both prostate and breast cancers. Fortunately we have natural aromatase inhibitors that are normally have within us when we are in balance. As it turns out progesterone and zinc are both aromatase inhibitors. Progesterone and zinc shows up strongly for men as prostate protectant and some studies have shown that progesterone will actually kill prostate tumor cells. Many people don't realize that in utero, the same tissue that turns into a uterus for women turns into a prostate for men. There are a lot of estrogen receptors in prostate tissue and we will be hearing a lot more about his is the future. Also I like the use of I3C as it tends to funnel the testosterone to estrogen process into protective low density estrogens. There is some controversy whether to use I3C or DIMM which is a metabolite of I3C. Most of this stir comes from a doctor who has the patent on the manufacturing of DIMM and it is he who is promoting the use of his patent process. (Big surprise there.) Everything I read suggests that I3C has more biological action and since one of it's metabolites is DIMM, I believe you get all the benefit of DIMM when you take I3C. Sex hormones all work in harmony and balance is the key for health, if my mother was to have breast cancer I would test her, and adjust all her hormones to be in balance with each other for safety with no concern that it may damage her in any way. Appropriate bio-identical hormone replacement that is balanced for the person is a protective service that we can help our patients with. Not something to be feared. My 2 Cents, Chris In a message dated 7/15/2007 3:56:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, writes: Dear Michael, A successful approach has been to use tri-estrogen (available from compounding pharmacies, made up of the 3 estrogens : Estriol, Estradiol and Estrone, in a ratio of 80/10/10. There was a book written about it a number of years ago by the late MD John Lee. I also know that Jonathan Wright, MD has been promoting tri-estrogen as part of a protocol to help peri and post menopausal women as well as for years. Here's his site: _http://www.tahoma-http://www.h_ (http://www.tahoma-clinic.com/.) Wright is a very informed and very brave MD, who has refused to be intimidated by the FDA, which has raided his offices on multiple occasions. Yehuda Michael Tierra <_mtierra@planetherbsmtie_ (mtierra) > wrote: Anyone use or know about estriol as an alternative for estrogen for menopause or estrogen sensitive cancers? is it a viable alternate and is it available? I have a very sad case (as most cancer cases are) of a 38 year old woman who had cervical cancer a couple years or so ago. She's now on tamoxifen but of course that has completely disrupted her life in all ways, love, work and activity. She's wondering whether to stop the tamoxifen and risk full blown recurrence of cancer. At this point there is only a small metastasis on one of her lungs. She asked about estriol as a weaker estrogen alternative and one that according to what I've read on the internet has little or no cancer sensitivity. I should know about it but alas, I don't and she wanted to know about it. Michael Tierra www.planetherbs.www ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2007 Report Share Posted July 15, 2007 Thanks for the refinement Warren. This is a somewhat gray area for me. I understand that saliva testing tests for unbound hormones and by majority the blood tests for bound hormones. The biggest aspect of blood verses saliva testing that I am still trying to work out for myself is that since I can not prescribe hormone replacement, I get to work with a Doctor to get that done. None of them will use saliva testing for the prescription protocol, so If I test a patient with saliva and refer them out, they get to be tested again with blood to suit the Doctors choice of testing. I may be able to persuade a local doctor to use saliva testing at some point, but to date, I have not been able to. The second issue I have had is free testosterone in female hormone saliva testing. I have had a couple tests come back showing abnormally high testosterone in women that I suspect was wrong. When I checked with another practitioner, they had the same potential issue. One possible issue is that the amount of free testosterone in the saliva is so low in women that sometimes the readings may be off. In checking with the lab, the answer is an absolute in support of their accuracy. I honestly don't have a definitive answer for myself, but this is a concern for me. I have not researched SHBG that much yet, but my guess is that SHBG binds unpreferencially all the sex hormones, so if one sex hormone is bound at a higher level, they all will be. If this is true, I think the most important aspect to look at is balance rather than total hormone levels. If this is true, then we can still use blood testing to show balance but it will not show an accurate total availability of unbound hormone. If we want to get an idea of the level of SHBG activity, then an inexpensive way to do that may be to order both free and total blood testosterone levels along with the rest of the hormone panel. Free blood testosterone is relatively cheap these days and it may give us an idea of the level of SHBG activity. Also, total hormone levels vary dramatically in healthy young women. If you take a thin young lady with low total body fat and smallish breasts and compare her levels of progesterone and estrogen with a softer looking healthy young lady, we may find 5-6x the levels of estrogen and progesterone in the softer version and both will have healthy levels as long as the balance between the estrogens and progesterone is correct. I think there is a rather large window of total hormone levels that is healthy and safe, as long as the balance is kept in check. This is a learning process for me right now so I have nothing that is absolute in my mind so please come back with any additional info that would help round out my comments. All the best, Chris In a message dated 7/15/2007 8:42:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, wcargal9 writes: Chris, Just a comment about using the blood test: Generally plasma levels are not good indicators of available hormones as you are getting a mixed reading of bound and unbound " free " hormones. Free hormones are bioactively available to dock on the hormone receptor sites, while bound is not. You can specify a free fraction plama test, however that is much more expensive. The least expensive way to look at free fraction is w/ a saliva test. Warren L. Cargal ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2007 Report Share Posted July 15, 2007 Chris, Just a comment about using the blood test: Generally plasma levels are not good indicators of available hormones as you are getting a mixed reading of bound and unbound " free " hormones. Free hormones are bioactively available to dock on the hormone receptor sites, while bound is not. You can specify a free fraction plama test, however that is much more expensive. The least expensive way to look at free fraction is w/ a saliva test. Warren L. Cargal > > Musiclear > 2007/07/15 Sun AM 08:21:25 EDT > > Re: About Estriol > > > > Dear Michael and Yehuda, > > I agree with Yehuda on the Tri-Est. It really seems to be a great > combination. I would highly recommend adding some progesterone into the treatment > though. > > All sex hormones work in together to balance the effects of the > anothers. A person can have relatively high hormone levels safely if they are in > balance. That same person could be in grave danger of cellular proliferation at > a much lower overall hormone level if the estrogens are not balanced with > progesterone. Testing is the key to finding the balance for this patient. > > I would suggest a blood test to find out where her levels of estradiol, > progesterone and testosterone are. Depending on what the numbers say, bring > her up to a more youthful level using bio identical progesterone testosterone > and Tri-Est. > > I know there is a lot of conflicting info regarding hormone replacement > and safety, but at this point, I believe the problems associated with HRT are > with the types of hormones used and the way they were administered. The > studies that showed the " dangers " of HRT used synthetic hormones that were not > balanced with the other sex hormones. > > Primerine is a horror story it's by itself. It has in it many estrogens > that are much more bio-active than the estrogens normally found in a human. > These estrogens send a strong signal for tissue growth. Given that the > studies were not balancing the super strong estrogens with the appropriate > amount of the estrogen antagonist progesterone, it would be obvious that > participants would have abnormal growth patterns. > > Another consideration with all patients is the aromatase enzyme with > converts testosterone to very strong growth promoting high density estrogens. > Unfortunately this enzyme tends to up regulate as people get older and IMHO is > a major issue with both prostate and breast cancers. > > Fortunately we have natural aromatase inhibitors that are normally have > within us when we are in balance. As it turns out progesterone and zinc are > both aromatase inhibitors. Progesterone and zinc shows up strongly for men > as prostate protectant and some studies have shown that progesterone will > actually kill prostate tumor cells. Many people don't realize that in utero, the > same tissue that turns into a uterus for women turns into a prostate for > men. There are a lot of estrogen receptors in prostate tissue and we will be > hearing a lot more about his is the future. > > Also I like the use of I3C as it tends to funnel the testosterone to > estrogen process into protective low density estrogens. There is some > controversy whether to use I3C or DIMM which is a metabolite of I3C. Most of this > stir comes from a doctor who has the patent on the manufacturing of DIMM and it > is he who is promoting the use of his patent process. (Big surprise there.) > > Everything I read suggests that I3C has more biological action and since > one of it's metabolites is DIMM, I believe you get all the benefit of DIMM > when you take I3C. > > Sex hormones all work in harmony and balance is the key for health, if > my mother was to have breast cancer I would test her, and adjust all her > hormones to be in balance with each other for safety with no concern that it may > damage her in any way. > > Appropriate bio-identical hormone replacement that is balanced for the > person is a protective service that we can help our patients with. Not > something to be feared. > > My 2 Cents, > > Chris > > > In a message dated 7/15/2007 3:56:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > writes: > > Dear Michael, > > A successful approach has been to use tri-estrogen (available from > compounding pharmacies, made up of the 3 estrogens : Estriol, Estradiol and Estrone, > in a ratio of 80/10/10. There was a book written about it a number of years > ago by the late MD John Lee. I also know that Jonathan Wright, MD has been > promoting tri-estrogen as part of a protocol to help peri and post menopausal > women as well as for years. Here's his site: _http://www.tahoma-http://www.h_ > (http://www.tahoma-clinic.com/.) Wright is a very informed and very brave MD, > who has refused to be intimidated by the FDA, which has raided his offices on > multiple occasions. > > Yehuda > > Michael Tierra <_mtierra@planetherbsmtie_ (mtierra) > > wrote: > Anyone use or know about estriol as an alternative for estrogen for > menopause or estrogen sensitive cancers? is it a viable alternate and is it > available? I have a very sad case (as most cancer cases are) of a 38 year > old woman who had cervical cancer a couple years or so ago. She's now on > tamoxifen but of course that has completely disrupted her life in all ways, > love, work and activity. She's wondering whether to stop the tamoxifen and > risk full blown recurrence of cancer. At this point there is only a small > metastasis on one of her lungs. She asked about estriol as a weaker estrogen > alternative and one that according to what I've read on the internet has > little or no cancer sensitivity. I should know about it but alas, I don't > and she wanted to know about it. > > Michael Tierra > www.planetherbs.www > ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at > http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2007 Report Share Posted July 15, 2007 I personally like to test the hormones using urine… Other have comments on this? -Jason _____ On Behalf Of wcargal9 Sunday, July 15, 2007 6:40 AM Re: Re: About Estriol Chris, Just a comment about using the blood test: Generally plasma levels are not good indicators of available hormones as you are getting a mixed reading of bound and unbound " free " hormones. Free hormones are bioactively available to dock on the hormone receptor sites, while bound is not. You can specify a free fraction plama test, however that is much more expensive. The least expensive way to look at free fraction is w/ a saliva test. Warren L. Cargal > > Musiclear (AT) aol (DOT) <Musiclear%40aol.com> com > 2007/07/15 Sun AM 08:21:25 EDT > @ <%40> > Re: About Estriol > > > > Dear Michael and Yehuda, > > I agree with Yehuda on the Tri-Est. It really seems to be a great > combination. I would highly recommend adding some progesterone into the treatment > though. > > All sex hormones work in together to balance the effects of the > anothers. A person can have relatively high hormone levels safely if they are in > balance. That same person could be in grave danger of cellular proliferation at > a much lower overall hormone level if the estrogens are not balanced with > progesterone. Testing is the key to finding the balance for this patient. > > I would suggest a blood test to find out where her levels of estradiol, > progesterone and testosterone are. Depending on what the numbers say, bring > her up to a more youthful level using bio identical progesterone testosterone > and Tri-Est. > > I know there is a lot of conflicting info regarding hormone replacement > and safety, but at this point, I believe the problems associated with HRT are > with the types of hormones used and the way they were administered. The > studies that showed the " dangers " of HRT used synthetic hormones that were not > balanced with the other sex hormones. > > Primerine is a horror story it's by itself. It has in it many estrogens > that are much more bio-active than the estrogens normally found in a human. > These estrogens send a strong signal for tissue growth. Given that the > studies were not balancing the super strong estrogens with the appropriate > amount of the estrogen antagonist progesterone, it would be obvious that > participants would have abnormal growth patterns. > > Another consideration with all patients is the aromatase enzyme with > converts testosterone to very strong growth promoting high density estrogens. > Unfortunately this enzyme tends to up regulate as people get older and IMHO is > a major issue with both prostate and breast cancers. > > Fortunately we have natural aromatase inhibitors that are normally have > within us when we are in balance. As it turns out progesterone and zinc are > both aromatase inhibitors. Progesterone and zinc shows up strongly for men > as prostate protectant and some studies have shown that progesterone will > actually kill prostate tumor cells. Many people don't realize that in utero, the > same tissue that turns into a uterus for women turns into a prostate for > men. There are a lot of estrogen receptors in prostate tissue and we will be > hearing a lot more about his is the future. > > Also I like the use of I3C as it tends to funnel the testosterone to > estrogen process into protective low density estrogens. There is some > controversy whether to use I3C or DIMM which is a metabolite of I3C. Most of this > stir comes from a doctor who has the patent on the manufacturing of DIMM and it > is he who is promoting the use of his patent process. (Big surprise there.) > > Everything I read suggests that I3C has more biological action and since > one of it's metabolites is DIMM, I believe you get all the benefit of DIMM > when you take I3C. > > Sex hormones all work in harmony and balance is the key for health, if > my mother was to have breast cancer I would test her, and adjust all her > hormones to be in balance with each other for safety with no concern that it may > damage her in any way. > > Appropriate bio-identical hormone replacement that is balanced for the > person is a protective service that we can help our patients with. Not > something to be feared. > > My 2 Cents, > > Chris > > > In a message dated 7/15/2007 3:56:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > (AT) (DOT) <%40> com writes: > > Dear Michael, > > A successful approach has been to use tri-estrogen (available from > compounding pharmacies, made up of the 3 estrogens : Estriol, Estradiol and Estrone, > in a ratio of 80/10/10. There was a book written about it a number of years > ago by the late MD John Lee. I also know that Jonathan Wright, MD has been > promoting tri-estrogen as part of a protocol to help peri and post menopausal > women as well as for years. Here's his site: _http://www.tahoma- <http://www.tahoma-http:/www.h_> http://www.h_ > (http://www.tahoma- <http://www.tahoma-clinic.com/> clinic.com/.) Wright is a very informed and very brave MD, > who has refused to be intimidated by the FDA, which has raided his offices on > multiple occasions. > > Yehuda > > Michael Tierra <_mtierra@planetherbsmtie_ (mtierra@planetherbs <mtierra%40planetherbs.com> .com) > > wrote: > Anyone use or know about estriol as an alternative for estrogen for > menopause or estrogen sensitive cancers? is it a viable alternate and is it > available? I have a very sad case (as most cancer cases are) of a 38 year > old woman who had cervical cancer a couple years or so ago. She's now on > tamoxifen but of course that has completely disrupted her life in all ways, > love, work and activity. She's wondering whether to stop the tamoxifen and > risk full blown recurrence of cancer. At this point there is only a small > metastasis on one of her lungs. She asked about estriol as a weaker estrogen > alternative and one that according to what I've read on the internet has > little or no cancer sensitivity. I should know about it but alas, I don't > and she wanted to know about it. > > Michael Tierra > www.planetherbs.www > ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at > http://discover. <http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour> aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2007 Report Share Posted July 15, 2007 To answer the first question we get to touch in with what I would like to do with some of these post menopausal women. Yes, I agree that we can treat these women to the point where their symptomology disappears. Is that all that can be done? Is that as far as we should take it? In some cases, I don't think so. I believe that we can stimulate a true youthening but, their hormone levels get to come up to a level closer to when they were younger. To do that, I believe we need HRT. I also believe that can be done not only safely, but in a way that can and will be protective against many of the dreaded diseases of aging. And it can be done in a way where they feel fantastic. Once the ovaries shut down, we are limited to what we can do with natural supplements. We get to reley on the adrenals and enzyme conversion of hormones to shift overall hormone levels. Even with that, we could never get them back to a level that I believe is most appropriate for many people who want to go there. That is why I would want to refer out to an MD. in some cases. Of course if your experience is different, I would love to hear about it. As far as the second part of your reply, I am aware of the possibilities that you describe with the exception of #2. I had thought that blood sugar dysregulation tends to push estrogen dominance rather than testosterone. Would you care to explain that a little further? This was a women who does some yoga, but was still rather soft. No sign of hair loss or excess hair. Moods were stable, just generally a softy all the way around. She did not seem like a person that would have excess testosterone. Her DHEA was normal. So, when we had her do a free and bound blood test and found low normal levels, that seemed to be the more correct answer with all other things considered. All the best, Chris In a message dated 7/15/2007 12:24:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, wcargal9 writes: Chris, I am not following your reasoning. Why are you referring the pt out to the MD; you could do the saliva test and based on S & S treat w/ herbal formulas & acu to upregulate or down regulate the hormones. Regarding the high testosterone. Questioning the test is certainly one avenue of inquiry. However there are more common issues of high t that may be more productive to inquire about: 1. excessive excercising 2. dysregulation of blood sugar will periphally aromatize estrogen into t (pcos) 3. excessive stress coupled w/ missed meals will result in #2 4. exogenous hormones from cosmetics specifically DHEA will elevate t 5, exogenous hormones from HRT (either natural or synthetic) will elevate t because as you previosly mentioned the steriods will try to stay in ratios to ea other. ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2007 Report Share Posted July 15, 2007 Jason, Are you referring to a 24 hr urine test? Why do you prefer that over a plasma or saliva test? Warren > > " " > 2007/07/15 Sun AM 08:58:36 EDT > > RE: Re: About Estriol > > I personally like to test the hormones using urine… Other have comments on > this? > > > > -Jason > _____ > > > On Behalf Of > wcargal9 > Sunday, July 15, 2007 6:40 AM > > Re: Re: About Estriol > > > > Chris, > > Just a comment about using the blood test: > > Generally plasma levels are not good indicators of available hormones as you > are getting a mixed reading of bound and unbound " free " hormones. Free > hormones are bioactively available to dock on the hormone receptor sites, > while bound is not. You can specify a free fraction plama test, however that > is much more expensive. > > The least expensive way to look at free fraction is w/ a saliva test. > > Warren L. Cargal > > > > Musiclear (AT) aol (DOT) <Musiclear%40aol.com> com > > 2007/07/15 Sun AM 08:21:25 EDT > > @ <%40> > > > Re: About Estriol > > > > > > > > Dear Michael and Yehuda, > > > > I agree with Yehuda on the Tri-Est. It really seems to be a great > > combination. I would highly recommend adding some progesterone into the > treatment > > though. > > > > All sex hormones work in together to balance the effects of the > > anothers. A person can have relatively high hormone levels safely if they > are in > > balance. That same person could be in grave danger of cellular > proliferation at > > a much lower overall hormone level if the estrogens are not balanced with > > progesterone. Testing is the key to finding the balance for this patient. > > > > I would suggest a blood test to find out where her levels of estradiol, > > progesterone and testosterone are. Depending on what the numbers say, > bring > > her up to a more youthful level using bio identical progesterone > testosterone > > and Tri-Est. > > > > I know there is a lot of conflicting info regarding hormone replacement > > and safety, but at this point, I believe the problems associated with HRT > are > > with the types of hormones used and the way they were administered. The > > studies that showed the " dangers " of HRT used synthetic hormones that were > not > > balanced with the other sex hormones. > > > > Primerine is a horror story it's by itself. It has in it many estrogens > > that are much more bio-active than the estrogens normally found in a > human. > > These estrogens send a strong signal for tissue growth. Given that the > > studies were not balancing the super strong estrogens with the appropriate > > > amount of the estrogen antagonist progesterone, it would be obvious that > > participants would have abnormal growth patterns. > > > > Another consideration with all patients is the aromatase enzyme with > > converts testosterone to very strong growth promoting high density > estrogens. > > Unfortunately this enzyme tends to up regulate as people get older and > IMHO is > > a major issue with both prostate and breast cancers. > > > > Fortunately we have natural aromatase inhibitors that are normally have > > within us when we are in balance. As it turns out progesterone and zinc > are > > both aromatase inhibitors. Progesterone and zinc shows up strongly for men > > > as prostate protectant and some studies have shown that progesterone will > > actually kill prostate tumor cells. Many people don't realize that in > utero, the > > same tissue that turns into a uterus for women turns into a prostate for > > men. There are a lot of estrogen receptors in prostate tissue and we will > be > > hearing a lot more about his is the future. > > > > Also I like the use of I3C as it tends to funnel the testosterone to > > estrogen process into protective low density estrogens. There is some > > controversy whether to use I3C or DIMM which is a metabolite of I3C. Most > of this > > stir comes from a doctor who has the patent on the manufacturing of DIMM > and it > > is he who is promoting the use of his patent process. (Big surprise > there.) > > > > Everything I read suggests that I3C has more biological action and since > > one of it's metabolites is DIMM, I believe you get all the benefit of DIMM > > > when you take I3C. > > > > Sex hormones all work in harmony and balance is the key for health, if > > my mother was to have breast cancer I would test her, and adjust all her > > hormones to be in balance with each other for safety with no concern that > it may > > damage her in any way. > > > > Appropriate bio-identical hormone replacement that is balanced for the > > person is a protective service that we can help our patients with. Not > > something to be feared. > > > > My 2 Cents, > > > > Chris > > > > > > In a message dated 7/15/2007 3:56:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > > (AT) (DOT) <%40> com writes: > > > > Dear Michael, > > > > A successful approach has been to use tri-estrogen (available from > > compounding pharmacies, made up of the 3 estrogens : Estriol, Estradiol > and Estrone, > > in a ratio of 80/10/10. There was a book written about it a number of > years > > ago by the late MD John Lee. I also know that Jonathan Wright, MD has been > > > promoting tri-estrogen as part of a protocol to help peri and post > menopausal > > women as well as for years. Here's his site: _http://www.tahoma- > <http://www.tahoma-http:/www.h_> http://www.h_ > > (http://www.tahoma- <http://www.tahoma-clinic.com/> clinic.com/.) Wright > is a very informed and very brave MD, > > who has refused to be intimidated by the FDA, which has raided his offices > on > > multiple occasions. > > > > Yehuda > > > > Michael Tierra <_mtierra@planetherbsmtie_ (mtierra@planetherbs > <mtierra%40planetherbs.com> .com) > > > wrote: > > Anyone use or know about estriol as an alternative for estrogen for > > menopause or estrogen sensitive cancers? is it a viable alternate and is > it > > available? I have a very sad case (as most cancer cases are) of a 38 year > > old woman who had cervical cancer a couple years or so ago. She's now on > > tamoxifen but of course that has completely disrupted her life in all > ways, > > love, work and activity. She's wondering whether to stop the tamoxifen and > > risk full blown recurrence of cancer. At this point there is only a small > > metastasis on one of her lungs. She asked about estriol as a weaker > estrogen > > alternative and one that according to what I've read on the internet has > > little or no cancer sensitivity. I should know about it but alas, I don't > > and she wanted to know about it. > > > > Michael Tierra > > www.planetherbs.www > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL > at > > http://discover. <http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour> > aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2007 Report Share Posted July 15, 2007 Chris, I am not following your reasoning. Why are you referring the pt out to the MD; you could do the saliva test and based on S & S treat w/ herbal formulas & acu to upregulate or down regulate the hormones. Regarding the high testosterone. Questioning the test is certainly one avenue of inquiry. However there are more common issues of high t that may be more productive to inquire about: 1. excessive excercising 2. dysregulation of blood sugar will periphally aromatize estrogen into t (pcos) 3. excessive stress coupled w/ missed meals will result in #2 4. exogenous hormones from cosmetics specifically DHEA will elevate t 5, exogenous hormones from HRT (either natural or synthetic) will elevate t because as you previosly mentioned the steriods will try to stay in ratios to ea other. Warren > > Musiclear > 2007/07/15 Sun AM 09:43:59 EDT > > Re: About Estriol > > > > > Thanks for the refinement Warren. > > This is a somewhat gray area for me. I understand that saliva testing > tests for unbound hormones and by majority the blood tests for bound hormones. > > The biggest aspect of blood verses saliva testing that I am still trying > to work out for myself is that since I can not prescribe hormone > replacement, I get to work with a Doctor to get that done. None of them will use saliva > testing for the prescription protocol, so If I test a patient with saliva > and refer them out, they get to be tested again with blood to suit the Doctors > choice of testing. I may be able to persuade a local doctor to use saliva > testing at some point, but to date, I have not been able to. > > The second issue I have had is free testosterone in female hormone > saliva testing. I have had a couple tests come back showing abnormally high > testosterone in women that I suspect was wrong. When I checked with another > practitioner, they had the same potential issue. > > One possible issue is that the amount of free testosterone in the saliva > is so low in women that sometimes the readings may be off. In checking with > the lab, the answer is an absolute in support of their accuracy. I honestly > don't have a definitive answer for myself, but this is a concern for me. > > I have not researched SHBG that much yet, but my guess is that SHBG > binds unpreferencially all the sex hormones, so if one sex hormone is bound at a > higher level, they all will be. If this is true, I think the most important > aspect to look at is balance rather than total hormone levels. If this is > true, then we can still use blood testing to show balance but it will not show > an accurate total availability of unbound hormone. > > If we want to get an idea of the level of SHBG activity, then an > inexpensive way to do that may be to order both free and total blood testosterone > levels along with the rest of the hormone panel. Free blood testosterone is > relatively cheap these days and it may give us an idea of the level of SHBG > activity. > > Also, total hormone levels vary dramatically in healthy young women. If > you take a thin young lady with low total body fat and smallish breasts and > compare her levels of progesterone and estrogen with a softer looking healthy > young lady, we may find 5-6x the levels of estrogen and progesterone in the > softer version and both will have healthy levels as long as the balance > between the estrogens and progesterone is correct. > > I think there is a rather large window of total hormone levels that is > healthy and safe, as long as the balance is kept in check. > > This is a learning process for me right now so I have nothing that is > absolute in my mind so please come back with any additional info that would > help round out my comments. > > All the best, > > Chris > > > > In a message dated 7/15/2007 8:42:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > wcargal9 writes: > > Chris, > > Just a comment about using the blood test: > > Generally plasma levels are not good indicators of available hormones as you > are getting a mixed reading of bound and unbound " free " hormones. Free > hormones are bioactively available to dock on the hormone receptor sites, while > bound is not. You can specify a free fraction plama test, however that is much > more expensive. > > The least expensive way to look at free fraction is w/ a saliva test. > > Warren L. Cargal > ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at > http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2007 Report Share Posted July 15, 2007 Lets not forget that we do not have any evidence, yet, that " natural " hormone replacement is any safer that Premarin. - Musiclear Sunday, July 15, 2007 5:21 AM Re: About Estriol Dear Michael and Yehuda, I agree with Yehuda on the Tri-Est. It really seems to be a great combination. I would highly recommend adding some progesterone into the treatment though. All sex hormones work in together to balance the effects of the anothers. A person can have relatively high hormone levels safely if they are in balance. That same person could be in grave danger of cellular proliferation at a much lower overall hormone level if the estrogens are not balanced with progesterone. Testing is the key to finding the balance for this patient. I would suggest a blood test to find out where her levels of estradiol, progesterone and testosterone are. Depending on what the numbers say, bring her up to a more youthful level using bio identical progesterone testosterone and Tri-Est. I know there is a lot of conflicting info regarding hormone replacement and safety, but at this point, I believe the problems associated with HRT are with the types of hormones used and the way they were administered. The studies that showed the " dangers " of HRT used synthetic hormones that were not balanced with the other sex hormones. Primerine is a horror story it's by itself. It has in it many estrogens that are much more bio-active than the estrogens normally found in a human. These estrogens send a strong signal for tissue growth. Given that the studies were not balancing the super strong estrogens with the appropriate amount of the estrogen antagonist progesterone, it would be obvious that participants would have abnormal growth patterns. Another consideration with all patients is the aromatase enzyme with converts testosterone to very strong growth promoting high density estrogens. Unfortunately this enzyme tends to up regulate as people get older and IMHO is a major issue with both prostate and breast cancers. Fortunately we have natural aromatase inhibitors that are normally have within us when we are in balance. As it turns out progesterone and zinc are both aromatase inhibitors. Progesterone and zinc shows up strongly for men as prostate protectant and some studies have shown that progesterone will actually kill prostate tumor cells. Many people don't realize that in utero, the same tissue that turns into a uterus for women turns into a prostate for men. There are a lot of estrogen receptors in prostate tissue and we will be hearing a lot more about his is the future. Also I like the use of I3C as it tends to funnel the testosterone to estrogen process into protective low density estrogens. There is some controversy whether to use I3C or DIMM which is a metabolite of I3C. Most of this stir comes from a doctor who has the patent on the manufacturing of DIMM and it is he who is promoting the use of his patent process. (Big surprise there.) Everything I read suggests that I3C has more biological action and since one of it's metabolites is DIMM, I believe you get all the benefit of DIMM when you take I3C. Sex hormones all work in harmony and balance is the key for health, if my mother was to have breast cancer I would test her, and adjust all her hormones to be in balance with each other for safety with no concern that it may damage her in any way. Appropriate bio-identical hormone replacement that is balanced for the person is a protective service that we can help our patients with. Not something to be feared. My 2 Cents, Chris In a message dated 7/15/2007 3:56:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, writes: Dear Michael, A successful approach has been to use tri-estrogen (available from compounding pharmacies, made up of the 3 estrogens : Estriol, Estradiol and Estrone, in a ratio of 80/10/10. There was a book written about it a number of years ago by the late MD John Lee. I also know that Jonathan Wright, MD has been promoting tri-estrogen as part of a protocol to help peri and post menopausal women as well as for years. Here's his site: _http://www.tahoma-http://www.h_ (http://www.tahoma-clinic.com/.) Wright is a very informed and very brave MD, who has refused to be intimidated by the FDA, which has raided his offices on multiple occasions. Yehuda Michael Tierra <_mtierra@planetherbsmtie_ (mtierra) > wrote: Anyone use or know about estriol as an alternative for estrogen for menopause or estrogen sensitive cancers? is it a viable alternate and is it available? I have a very sad case (as most cancer cases are) of a 38 year old woman who had cervical cancer a couple years or so ago. She's now on tamoxifen but of course that has completely disrupted her life in all ways, love, work and activity. She's wondering whether to stop the tamoxifen and risk full blown recurrence of cancer. At this point there is only a small metastasis on one of her lungs. She asked about estriol as a weaker estrogen alternative and one that according to what I've read on the internet has little or no cancer sensitivity. I should know about it but alas, I don't and she wanted to know about it. Michael Tierra www.planetherbs.www ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 Well.... that isn't exactly what I have found. With no disrespect intended, there are many who will say that we haven't found any evidence that Acupuncture works. I would tend to disagree with those people too. I'll see if I can get together some info so support Natural HRT safety info. It would be a good thing for me to have on hand anyway. All the best, Chris In a message dated 7/16/2007 12:34:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, alonmarcus writes: Lets not forget that we do not have any evidence, yet, that " natural " hormone replacement is any safer that Premarin. 400 29th St. #419 ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 A big question as to " natural " hormone. There are only hormone precursors in certain things such as soya and ge gen for instance (other beans as well), black cohosh. No hormones in Dan gui. Tian men dong (asparagus root) in Ayurveda is consider THE female tonic herb. Dang gui works by stimulating pelvic circulation and thus enhancing the self regulatory hormonal processes. Other plants have hormone precursors which are believed to occupy hormone receptor sites and thereby regulate hormone conversion. No one has been able to show either way whether these aggravate estrogen sensitive cancers or not. However, the long usage of soya and other beans in both Japanese and Chinese food medicine for cancer seems to tilt towards their use in the management of cancer. I'd be interested in any of yours or anyone on the lists thoughts about this. By the way, everyone, thanks for the extriol feedback. Michael Tierra www.planetherbs.com _____ On Behalf Of Alon Marcus Sunday, July 15, 2007 9:05 PM Re: About Estriol Lets not forget that we do not have any evidence, yet, that " natural " hormone replacement is any safer that Premarin. - Musiclear (AT) aol (DOT) <Musiclear%40aol.com> com @ <%40> Sunday, July 15, 2007 5:21 AM Re: About Estriol Dear Michael and Yehuda, I agree with Yehuda on the Tri-Est. It really seems to be a great combination. I would highly recommend adding some progesterone into the treatment though. All sex hormones work in together to balance the effects of the anothers. A person can have relatively high hormone levels safely if they are in balance. That same person could be in grave danger of cellular proliferation at a much lower overall hormone level if the estrogens are not balanced with progesterone. Testing is the key to finding the balance for this patient. I would suggest a blood test to find out where her levels of estradiol, progesterone and testosterone are. Depending on what the numbers say, bring her up to a more youthful level using bio identical progesterone testosterone and Tri-Est. I know there is a lot of conflicting info regarding hormone replacement and safety, but at this point, I believe the problems associated with HRT are with the types of hormones used and the way they were administered. The studies that showed the " dangers " of HRT used synthetic hormones that were not balanced with the other sex hormones. Primerine is a horror story it's by itself. It has in it many estrogens that are much more bio-active than the estrogens normally found in a human. These estrogens send a strong signal for tissue growth. Given that the studies were not balancing the super strong estrogens with the appropriate amount of the estrogen antagonist progesterone, it would be obvious that participants would have abnormal growth patterns. Another consideration with all patients is the aromatase enzyme with converts testosterone to very strong growth promoting high density estrogens. Unfortunately this enzyme tends to up regulate as people get older and IMHO is a major issue with both prostate and breast cancers. Fortunately we have natural aromatase inhibitors that are normally have within us when we are in balance. As it turns out progesterone and zinc are both aromatase inhibitors. Progesterone and zinc shows up strongly for men as prostate protectant and some studies have shown that progesterone will actually kill prostate tumor cells. Many people don't realize that in utero, the same tissue that turns into a uterus for women turns into a prostate for men. There are a lot of estrogen receptors in prostate tissue and we will be hearing a lot more about his is the future. Also I like the use of I3C as it tends to funnel the testosterone to estrogen process into protective low density estrogens. There is some controversy whether to use I3C or DIMM which is a metabolite of I3C. Most of this stir comes from a doctor who has the patent on the manufacturing of DIMM and it is he who is promoting the use of his patent process. (Big surprise there.) Everything I read suggests that I3C has more biological action and since one of it's metabolites is DIMM, I believe you get all the benefit of DIMM when you take I3C. Sex hormones all work in harmony and balance is the key for health, if my mother was to have breast cancer I would test her, and adjust all her hormones to be in balance with each other for safety with no concern that it may damage her in any way. Appropriate bio-identical hormone replacement that is balanced for the person is a protective service that we can help our patients with. Not something to be feared. My 2 Cents, Chris In a message dated 7/15/2007 3:56:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, (AT) (DOT) <%40> com writes: Dear Michael, A successful approach has been to use tri-estrogen (available from compounding pharmacies, made up of the 3 estrogens : Estriol, Estradiol and Estrone, in a ratio of 80/10/10. There was a book written about it a number of years ago by the late MD John Lee. I also know that Jonathan Wright, MD has been promoting tri-estrogen as part of a protocol to help peri and post menopausal women as well as for years. Here's his site: _http://www.tahoma- <http://www.tahoma-http://www.h_> http://www.h_ (http://www.tahoma- <http://www.tahoma-clinic.com/.> clinic.com/.) Wright is a very informed and very brave MD, who has refused to be intimidated by the FDA, which has raided his offices on multiple occasions. Yehuda Michael Tierra <_mtierra@planetherbsmtie_ (mtierra@planetherbs <mtierra%40planetherbs.com> .com) > wrote: Anyone use or know about estriol as an alternative for estrogen for menopause or estrogen sensitive cancers? is it a viable alternate and is it available? I have a very sad case (as most cancer cases are) of a 38 year old woman who had cervical cancer a couple years or so ago. She's now on tamoxifen but of course that has completely disrupted her life in all ways, love, work and activity. She's wondering whether to stop the tamoxifen and risk full blown recurrence of cancer. At this point there is only a small metastasis on one of her lungs. She asked about estriol as a weaker estrogen alternative and one that according to what I've read on the internet has little or no cancer sensitivity. I should know about it but alas, I don't and she wanted to know about it. Michael Tierra www.planetherbs.www ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at http://discover. <http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour> aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 But we've found acupuncture safer than surgery. Doug , Musiclear wrote: > > > > Well.... that isn't exactly what I have found. > > With no disrespect intended, there are many who will say that we haven't > found any evidence that Acupuncture works. I would tend to disagree with > those people too. > > I'll see if I can get together some info so support Natural HRT safety > info. It would be a good thing for me to have on hand anyway. > > All the best, > > Chris > > > In a message dated 7/16/2007 12:34:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > alonmarcus writes: > > Lets not forget that we do not have any evidence, yet, that " natural " > hormone replacement is any safer that Premarin. > > > > 400 29th St. #419 > > > ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at > http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 if you find any true evidence, not just statements, please share. I have seen non so far. I am not sure that " natural " HRT is natural in a sort and i am not sure we can assume it is safer - Musiclear Monday, July 16, 2007 4:01 AM Re: About Estriol Well.... that isn't exactly what I have found. With no disrespect intended, there are many who will say that we haven't found any evidence that Acupuncture works. I would tend to disagree with those people too. I'll see if I can get together some info so support Natural HRT safety info. It would be a good thing for me to have on hand anyway. All the best, Chris In a message dated 7/16/2007 12:34:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, alonmarcus writes: Lets not forget that we do not have any evidence, yet, that " natural " hormone replacement is any safer that Premarin. ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 I do agree that natural doesn't mean safe. You can totally mess up hormone balance with natural hormones and cause just as many problems as synthetic hormones. The only way natural HRT can be " safe " is if the balance of hormones remains appropriate to normal physiology. Chris In a message dated 7/16/2007 6:16:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, alonmarcus writes: if you find any true evidence, not just statements, please share. I have seen non so far. I am not sure that " natural " HRT is natural in a sort and i am not sure we can assume it is safer 400 29th St. #419 ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 Alon, Sorry that I haven't participated in this discussion since the outset, but I have been incredibly busy. Forgive me for being so blunt, but you are completely wrong in equating Premarin with " natural " HRT, they are like comparing, well, a woman to a horse! (I would use the same analogy with cows milk, which I grant you is a perfect food...for calves, but for humans is largely intolerated, besides the delicious pesticides, antibiotics and hormones therein but more on that later). The problem with Premarin is that it contains just one " human " estrogen, Estrone, plus Equilin, a form of estrogen found exclusively in horses, smaller amounts of Estradiol which is also found in humans, and two other horse estrogens. More light is shed on this problem when you begin to compare Premarin's " make-up " with that of the female body. The average woman's estrogen balance is 60-80% Estriol, 10-20% Estrone and 10 to 20% Estradiol (thus it's name triple estrogen). One major problem stands out in this comparison. Premarin is made up of 75-80% Estrone compared to 10-20% in the human body. If that isn't enough, remember that Premarin is a synthetic hormone extracted from the urine of pregnant mares. -Because of that, it is a foreign substance, and therefore can have a deleterious effect on the body. In a study reported in the June 1997 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine, women taking estrogen postmenopausally reported a 59% decrease in death from heart disease. So far so good! But the same study showed that women who took estrogen postmenopausally for 10 years had a 43% increased risk due to breast cancer. Note that the figure leaves out women who were treated successfully for breast cancer with breast removal, radiation or chemotherapy. Lacking the major human estrogen component Estriol, is about as healthy, again as starting a baby on cows milk from birth, and generally compromises immune function. Here's an article from Life Extension that speaks more about this issue: http://www.antiagingatlanta.com/100064.pdf Off to see a patient, Yehuda Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: if you find any true evidence, not just statements, please share. I have seen non so far. I am not sure that " natural " HRT is natural in a sort and i am not sure we can assume it is safer - Musiclear Monday, July 16, 2007 4:01 AM Re: About Estriol Well.... that isn't exactly what I have found. With no disrespect intended, there are many who will say that we haven't found any evidence that Acupuncture works. I would tend to disagree with those people too. I'll see if I can get together some info so support Natural HRT safety info. It would be a good thing for me to have on hand anyway. All the best, Chris In a message dated 7/16/2007 12:34:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, alonmarcus writes: Lets not forget that we do not have any evidence, yet, that " natural " hormone replacement is any safer that Premarin. ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 Chris Normal for what age that is the big question. We are giving natural hormones to women restoring hormone level seen at much younger age and we no idea if it is safe. - Musiclear Monday, July 16, 2007 6:08 PM Re: About Estriol I do agree that natural doesn't mean safe. You can totally mess up hormone balance with natural hormones and cause just as many problems as synthetic hormones. The only way natural HRT can be " safe " is if the balance of hormones remains appropriate to normal physiology. Chris In a message dated 7/16/2007 6:16:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, alonmarcus writes: if you find any true evidence, not just statements, please share. I have seen non so far. I am not sure that " natural " HRT is natural in a sort and i am not sure we can assume it is safer ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 well yehuda can you show me any evidence that taking triest is safe. Not just dogmatic talk. show me one human study on triest. It took years to sort out Premarin and we have no data at all on bio-identical hormones. - yehuda frischman Monday, July 16, 2007 7:23 PM Re: About Estriol Alon, Sorry that I haven't participated in this discussion since the outset, but I have been incredibly busy. Forgive me for being so blunt, but you are completely wrong in equating Premarin with " natural " HRT, they are like comparing, well, a woman to a horse! (I would use the same analogy with cows milk, which I grant you is a perfect food...for calves, but for humans is largely intolerated, besides the delicious pesticides, antibiotics and hormones therein but more on that later). The problem with Premarin is that it contains just one " human " estrogen, Estrone, plus Equilin, a form of estrogen found exclusively in horses, smaller amounts of Estradiol which is also found in humans, and two other horse estrogens. More light is shed on this problem when you begin to compare Premarin's " make-up " with that of the female body. The average woman's estrogen balance is 60-80% Estriol, 10-20% Estrone and 10 to 20% Estradiol (thus it's name triple estrogen). One major problem stands out in this comparison. Premarin is made up of 75-80% Estrone compared to 10-20% in the human body. If that isn't enough, remember that Premarin is a synthetic hormone extracted from the urine of pregnant mares. -Because of that, it is a foreign substance, and therefore can have a deleterious effect on the body. In a study reported in the June 1997 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine, women taking estrogen postmenopausally reported a 59% decrease in death from heart disease. So far so good! But the same study showed that women who took estrogen postmenopausally for 10 years had a 43% increased risk due to breast cancer. Note that the figure leaves out women who were treated successfully for breast cancer with breast removal, radiation or chemotherapy. Lacking the major human estrogen component Estriol, is about as healthy, again as starting a baby on cows milk from birth, and generally compromises immune function. Here's an article from Life Extension that speaks more about this issue: http://www.antiagingatlanta.com/100064.pdf Off to see a patient, Yehuda Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: if you find any true evidence, not just statements, please share. I have seen non so far. I am not sure that " natural " HRT is natural in a sort and i am not sure we can assume it is safer - Musiclear Monday, July 16, 2007 4:01 AM Re: About Estriol Well.... that isn't exactly what I have found. With no disrespect intended, there are many who will say that we haven't found any evidence that Acupuncture works. I would tend to disagree with those people too. I'll see if I can get together some info so support Natural HRT safety info. It would be a good thing for me to have on hand anyway. All the best, Chris In a message dated 7/16/2007 12:34:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, alonmarcus writes: Lets not forget that we do not have any evidence, yet, that " natural " hormone replacement is any safer that Premarin. ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 See these: http://www.usask.ca/pharmacy-nutrition/services/read.php?id=11 Effects of estrogen or estrogen/ progestin regimens on heart disease risk factors in postmenopausal women. The premenopausal estrogen/ progestin interventions (PEPI) trial. JAMA 1995;273:199-208 Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: well yehuda can you show me any evidence that taking triest is safe. Not just dogmatic talk. show me one human study on triest. It took years to sort out Premarin and we have no data at all on bio-identical hormones. - yehuda frischman Monday, July 16, 2007 7:23 PM Re: About Estriol Alon, Sorry that I haven't participated in this discussion since the outset, but I have been incredibly busy. Forgive me for being so blunt, but you are completely wrong in equating Premarin with " natural " HRT, they are like comparing, well, a woman to a horse! (I would use the same analogy with cows milk, which I grant you is a perfect food...for calves, but for humans is largely intolerated, besides the delicious pesticides, antibiotics and hormones therein but more on that later). The problem with Premarin is that it contains just one " human " estrogen, Estrone, plus Equilin, a form of estrogen found exclusively in horses, smaller amounts of Estradiol which is also found in humans, and two other horse estrogens. More light is shed on this problem when you begin to compare Premarin's " make-up " with that of the female body. The average woman's estrogen balance is 60-80% Estriol, 10-20% Estrone and 10 to 20% Estradiol (thus it's name triple estrogen). One major problem stands out in this comparison. Premarin is made up of 75-80% Estrone compared to 10-20% in the human body. If that isn't enough, remember that Premarin is a synthetic hormone extracted from the urine of pregnant mares. -Because of that, it is a foreign substance, and therefore can have a deleterious effect on the body. In a study reported in the June 1997 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine, women taking estrogen postmenopausally reported a 59% decrease in death from heart disease. So far so good! But the same study showed that women who took estrogen postmenopausally for 10 years had a 43% increased risk due to breast cancer. Note that the figure leaves out women who were treated successfully for breast cancer with breast removal, radiation or chemotherapy. Lacking the major human estrogen component Estriol, is about as healthy, again as starting a baby on cows milk from birth, and generally compromises immune function. Here's an article from Life Extension that speaks more about this issue: http://www.antiagingatlanta.com/100064.pdf Off to see a patient, Yehuda Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: if you find any true evidence, not just statements, please share. I have seen non so far. I am not sure that " natural " HRT is natural in a sort and i am not sure we can assume it is safer - Musiclear Monday, July 16, 2007 4:01 AM Re: About Estriol Well.... that isn't exactly what I have found. With no disrespect intended, there are many who will say that we haven't found any evidence that Acupuncture works. I would tend to disagree with those people too. I'll see if I can get together some info so support Natural HRT safety info. It would be a good thing for me to have on hand anyway. All the best, Chris In a message dated 7/16/2007 12:34:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, alonmarcus writes: Lets not forget that we do not have any evidence, yet, that " natural " hormone replacement is any safer that Premarin. ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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