Guest guest Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 One of the risk factors for breast cancer is a later than normal menopause or an early menarche. If by giving a woman hormones, we're restoring or sustaining her periods, then, we're likely increasing her risk of breast cancer. Hormones help slow some measures of aging (cardiovascular disease ...) but may proliferate or cause cancer in organs that weren't 'meant' to function for so many years. You're just buying more tickets in the cancer lottery the more you're stimulating that reproductive tissue in the uterus and breast. That's been my understanding. Marian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Yehuda This is all very preliminary data. No one knows what the affects of long term use are. Unfortunately we will probably never know because lack of money to study bio identical hormones. - yehuda frischman Tuesday, July 17, 2007 12:56 PM Re: About Estriol See these: http://www.usask.ca/pharmacy-nutrition/services/read.php?id=11 Effects of estrogen or estrogen/ progestin regimens on heart disease risk factors in postmenopausal women. The premenopausal estrogen/ progestin interventions (PEPI) trial. JAMA 1995;273:199-208 Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: well yehuda can you show me any evidence that taking triest is safe. Not just dogmatic talk. show me one human study on triest. It took years to sort out Premarin and we have no data at all on bio-identical hormones. - yehuda frischman Monday, July 16, 2007 7:23 PM Re: About Estriol Alon, Sorry that I haven't participated in this discussion since the outset, but I have been incredibly busy. Forgive me for being so blunt, but you are completely wrong in equating Premarin with " natural " HRT, they are like comparing, well, a woman to a horse! (I would use the same analogy with cows milk, which I grant you is a perfect food...for calves, but for humans is largely intolerated, besides the delicious pesticides, antibiotics and hormones therein but more on that later). The problem with Premarin is that it contains just one " human " estrogen, Estrone, plus Equilin, a form of estrogen found exclusively in horses, smaller amounts of Estradiol which is also found in humans, and two other horse estrogens. More light is shed on this problem when you begin to compare Premarin's " make-up " with that of the female body. The average woman's estrogen balance is 60-80% Estriol, 10-20% Estrone and 10 to 20% Estradiol (thus it's name triple estrogen). One major problem stands out in this comparison. Premarin is made up of 75-80% Estrone compared to 10-20% in the human body. If that isn't enough, remember that Premarin is a synthetic hormone extracted from the urine of pregnant mares. -Because of that, it is a foreign substance, and therefore can have a deleterious effect on the body. In a study reported in the June 1997 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine, women taking estrogen postmenopausally reported a 59% decrease in death from heart disease. So far so good! But the same study showed that women who took estrogen postmenopausally for 10 years had a 43% increased risk due to breast cancer. Note that the figure leaves out women who were treated successfully for breast cancer with breast removal, radiation or chemotherapy. Lacking the major human estrogen component Estriol, is about as healthy, again as starting a baby on cows milk from birth, and generally compromises immune function. Here's an article from Life Extension that speaks more about this issue: http://www.antiagingatlanta.com/100064.pdf Off to see a patient, Yehuda Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: if you find any true evidence, not just statements, please share. I have seen non so far. I am not sure that " natural " HRT is natural in a sort and i am not sure we can assume it is safer - Musiclear Monday, July 16, 2007 4:01 AM Re: About Estriol Well.... that isn't exactly what I have found. With no disrespect intended, there are many who will say that we haven't found any evidence that Acupuncture works. I would tend to disagree with those people too. I'll see if I can get together some info so support Natural HRT safety info. It would be a good thing for me to have on hand anyway. All the best, Chris In a message dated 7/16/2007 12:34:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, alonmarcus writes: Lets not forget that we do not have any evidence, yet, that " natural " hormone replacement is any safer that Premarin. ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 According to BHRT theory, estriol does not cause proliferation of endometrial and breast tissue and, when given in combination, antagonizes the proliferative effect of the stronger estrogens.4,5 Whileearlier studies suggest that estriol has no effect on the uterus10,15, more recent studies report signifi-cant growth of the endometrium during estriol therapy16,17. Careful monitoring of patients using oral or vaginal estriol formulations is recommended and prophylactic therapy with a progestagen should be considered.5,7,16 Similarly, in regards to breast cancer, animal and epidemiological studies support a protective effect for estriol4 but there are in vitro studies that indicate estriol has stimulatory effect on human breast cancer cells18.19. Until further research clarifies this issue, estriol formulations should not be recommended as an alternative to HRT in women with breast cancer or at risk of breast cancer. - yehuda frischman Tuesday, July 17, 2007 12:56 PM Re: About Estriol See these: http://www.usask.ca/pharmacy-nutrition/services/read.php?id=11 Effects of estrogen or estrogen/ progestin regimens on heart disease risk factors in postmenopausal women. The premenopausal estrogen/ progestin interventions (PEPI) trial. JAMA 1995;273:199-208 Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: well yehuda can you show me any evidence that taking triest is safe. Not just dogmatic talk. show me one human study on triest. It took years to sort out Premarin and we have no data at all on bio-identical hormones. - yehuda frischman Monday, July 16, 2007 7:23 PM Re: About Estriol Alon, Sorry that I haven't participated in this discussion since the outset, but I have been incredibly busy. Forgive me for being so blunt, but you are completely wrong in equating Premarin with " natural " HRT, they are like comparing, well, a woman to a horse! (I would use the same analogy with cows milk, which I grant you is a perfect food...for calves, but for humans is largely intolerated, besides the delicious pesticides, antibiotics and hormones therein but more on that later). The problem with Premarin is that it contains just one " human " estrogen, Estrone, plus Equilin, a form of estrogen found exclusively in horses, smaller amounts of Estradiol which is also found in humans, and two other horse estrogens. More light is shed on this problem when you begin to compare Premarin's " make-up " with that of the female body. The average woman's estrogen balance is 60-80% Estriol, 10-20% Estrone and 10 to 20% Estradiol (thus it's name triple estrogen). One major problem stands out in this comparison. Premarin is made up of 75-80% Estrone compared to 10-20% in the human body. If that isn't enough, remember that Premarin is a synthetic hormone extracted from the urine of pregnant mares. -Because of that, it is a foreign substance, and therefore can have a deleterious effect on the body. In a study reported in the June 1997 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine, women taking estrogen postmenopausally reported a 59% decrease in death from heart disease. So far so good! But the same study showed that women who took estrogen postmenopausally for 10 years had a 43% increased risk due to breast cancer. Note that the figure leaves out women who were treated successfully for breast cancer with breast removal, radiation or chemotherapy. Lacking the major human estrogen component Estriol, is about as healthy, again as starting a baby on cows milk from birth, and generally compromises immune function. Here's an article from Life Extension that speaks more about this issue: http://www.antiagingatlanta.com/100064.pdf Off to see a patient, Yehuda Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: if you find any true evidence, not just statements, please share. I have seen non so far. I am not sure that " natural " HRT is natural in a sort and i am not sure we can assume it is safer - Musiclear Monday, July 16, 2007 4:01 AM Re: About Estriol Well.... that isn't exactly what I have found. With no disrespect intended, there are many who will say that we haven't found any evidence that Acupuncture works. I would tend to disagree with those people too. I'll see if I can get together some info so support Natural HRT safety info. It would be a good thing for me to have on hand anyway. All the best, Chris In a message dated 7/16/2007 12:34:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, alonmarcus writes: Lets not forget that we do not have any evidence, yet, that " natural " hormone replacement is any safer that Premarin. ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 I agree, Alon. However we do know that the ratios in Premarin are not at all consistent with female hormone ratios, and logic would dictate that we mimic the same balance that occurs in healthy females. My best, Yehuda Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: Yehuda This is all very preliminary data. No one knows what the affects of long term use are. Unfortunately we will probably never know because lack of money to study bio identical hormones. - yehuda frischman Tuesday, July 17, 2007 12:56 PM Re: About Estriol See these: http://www.usask.ca/pharmacy-nutrition/services/read.php?id=11 Effects of estrogen or estrogen/ progestin regimens on heart disease risk factors in postmenopausal women. The premenopausal estrogen/ progestin interventions (PEPI) trial. JAMA 1995;273:199-208 Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: well yehuda can you show me any evidence that taking triest is safe. Not just dogmatic talk. show me one human study on triest. It took years to sort out Premarin and we have no data at all on bio-identical hormones. - yehuda frischman Monday, July 16, 2007 7:23 PM Re: About Estriol Alon, Sorry that I haven't participated in this discussion since the outset, but I have been incredibly busy. Forgive me for being so blunt, but you are completely wrong in equating Premarin with " natural " HRT, they are like comparing, well, a woman to a horse! (I would use the same analogy with cows milk, which I grant you is a perfect food...for calves, but for humans is largely intolerated, besides the delicious pesticides, antibiotics and hormones therein but more on that later). The problem with Premarin is that it contains just one " human " estrogen, Estrone, plus Equilin, a form of estrogen found exclusively in horses, smaller amounts of Estradiol which is also found in humans, and two other horse estrogens. More light is shed on this problem when you begin to compare Premarin's " make-up " with that of the female body. The average woman's estrogen balance is 60-80% Estriol, 10-20% Estrone and 10 to 20% Estradiol (thus it's name triple estrogen). One major problem stands out in this comparison. Premarin is made up of 75-80% Estrone compared to 10-20% in the human body. If that isn't enough, remember that Premarin is a synthetic hormone extracted from the urine of pregnant mares. -Because of that, it is a foreign substance, and therefore can have a deleterious effect on the body. In a study reported in the June 1997 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine, women taking estrogen postmenopausally reported a 59% decrease in death from heart disease. So far so good! But the same study showed that women who took estrogen postmenopausally for 10 years had a 43% increased risk due to breast cancer. Note that the figure leaves out women who were treated successfully for breast cancer with breast removal, radiation or chemotherapy. Lacking the major human estrogen component Estriol, is about as healthy, again as starting a baby on cows milk from birth, and generally compromises immune function. Here's an article from Life Extension that speaks more about this issue: http://www.antiagingatlanta.com/100064.pdf Off to see a patient, Yehuda Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: if you find any true evidence, not just statements, please share. I have seen non so far. I am not sure that " natural " HRT is natural in a sort and i am not sure we can assume it is safer - Musiclear Monday, July 16, 2007 4:01 AM Re: About Estriol Well.... that isn't exactly what I have found. With no disrespect intended, there are many who will say that we haven't found any evidence that Acupuncture works. I would tend to disagree with those people too. I'll see if I can get together some info so support Natural HRT safety info. It would be a good thing for me to have on hand anyway. All the best, Chris In a message dated 7/16/2007 12:34:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, alonmarcus writes: Lets not forget that we do not have any evidence, yet, that " natural " hormone replacement is any safer that Premarin. ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Again, as was pointed out, Estrogen levels need to be measured and balanced with other hormones such as progesterone, testosterone, DHEA and pregnenolone as well. Otherwise, even with triest, I would contend that studies would be faulty. Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: According to BHRT theory, estriol does not cause proliferation of endometrial and breast tissue and, when given in combination, antagonizes the proliferative effect of the stronger estrogens.4,5 Whileearlier studies suggest that estriol has no effect on the uterus10,15, more recent studies report signifi-cant growth of the endometrium during estriol therapy16,17. Careful monitoring of patients using oral or vaginal estriol formulations is recommended and prophylactic therapy with a progestagen should be considered.5,7,16 Similarly, in regards to breast cancer, animal and epidemiological studies support a protective effect for estriol4 but there are in vitro studies that indicate estriol has stimulatory effect on human breast cancer cells18.19. Until further research clarifies this issue, estriol formulations should not be recommended as an alternative to HRT in women with breast cancer or at risk of breast cancer. - yehuda frischman Tuesday, July 17, 2007 12:56 PM Re: About Estriol See these: http://www.usask.ca/pharmacy-nutrition/services/read.php?id=11 Effects of estrogen or estrogen/ progestin regimens on heart disease risk factors in postmenopausal women. The premenopausal estrogen/ progestin interventions (PEPI) trial. JAMA 1995;273:199-208 Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: well yehuda can you show me any evidence that taking triest is safe. Not just dogmatic talk. show me one human study on triest. It took years to sort out Premarin and we have no data at all on bio-identical hormones. - yehuda frischman Monday, July 16, 2007 7:23 PM Re: About Estriol Alon, Sorry that I haven't participated in this discussion since the outset, but I have been incredibly busy. Forgive me for being so blunt, but you are completely wrong in equating Premarin with " natural " HRT, they are like comparing, well, a woman to a horse! (I would use the same analogy with cows milk, which I grant you is a perfect food...for calves, but for humans is largely intolerated, besides the delicious pesticides, antibiotics and hormones therein but more on that later). The problem with Premarin is that it contains just one " human " estrogen, Estrone, plus Equilin, a form of estrogen found exclusively in horses, smaller amounts of Estradiol which is also found in humans, and two other horse estrogens. More light is shed on this problem when you begin to compare Premarin's " make-up " with that of the female body. The average woman's estrogen balance is 60-80% Estriol, 10-20% Estrone and 10 to 20% Estradiol (thus it's name triple estrogen). One major problem stands out in this comparison. Premarin is made up of 75-80% Estrone compared to 10-20% in the human body. If that isn't enough, remember that Premarin is a synthetic hormone extracted from the urine of pregnant mares. -Because of that, it is a foreign substance, and therefore can have a deleterious effect on the body. In a study reported in the June 1997 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine, women taking estrogen postmenopausally reported a 59% decrease in death from heart disease. So far so good! But the same study showed that women who took estrogen postmenopausally for 10 years had a 43% increased risk due to breast cancer. Note that the figure leaves out women who were treated successfully for breast cancer with breast removal, radiation or chemotherapy. Lacking the major human estrogen component Estriol, is about as healthy, again as starting a baby on cows milk from birth, and generally compromises immune function. Here's an article from Life Extension that speaks more about this issue: http://www.antiagingatlanta.com/100064.pdf Off to see a patient, Yehuda Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: if you find any true evidence, not just statements, please share. I have seen non so far. I am not sure that " natural " HRT is natural in a sort and i am not sure we can assume it is safer - Musiclear Monday, July 16, 2007 4:01 AM Re: About Estriol Well.... that isn't exactly what I have found. With no disrespect intended, there are many who will say that we haven't found any evidence that Acupuncture works. I would tend to disagree with those people too. I'll see if I can get together some info so support Natural HRT safety info. It would be a good thing for me to have on hand anyway. All the best, Chris In a message dated 7/16/2007 12:34:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, alonmarcus writes: Lets not forget that we do not have any evidence, yet, that " natural " hormone replacement is any safer that Premarin. ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Premarin is poison, however that does not mean bioidentical is safe. I think all women taking bio identicals need to be better informed. - yehuda frischman Tuesday, July 17, 2007 7:40 PM Re: About Estriol I agree, Alon. However we do know that the ratios in Premarin are not at all consistent with female hormone ratios, and logic would dictate that we mimic the same balance that occurs in healthy females. My best, Yehuda Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: Yehuda This is all very preliminary data. No one knows what the affects of long term use are. Unfortunately we will probably never know because lack of money to study bio identical hormones. - yehuda frischman Tuesday, July 17, 2007 12:56 PM Re: About Estriol See these: http://www.usask.ca/pharmacy-nutrition/services/read.php?id=11 Effects of estrogen or estrogen/ progestin regimens on heart disease risk factors in postmenopausal women. The premenopausal estrogen/ progestin interventions (PEPI) trial. JAMA 1995;273:199-208 Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: well yehuda can you show me any evidence that taking triest is safe. Not just dogmatic talk. show me one human study on triest. It took years to sort out Premarin and we have no data at all on bio-identical hormones. - yehuda frischman Monday, July 16, 2007 7:23 PM Re: About Estriol Alon, Sorry that I haven't participated in this discussion since the outset, but I have been incredibly busy. Forgive me for being so blunt, but you are completely wrong in equating Premarin with " natural " HRT, they are like comparing, well, a woman to a horse! (I would use the same analogy with cows milk, which I grant you is a perfect food...for calves, but for humans is largely intolerated, besides the delicious pesticides, antibiotics and hormones therein but more on that later). The problem with Premarin is that it contains just one " human " estrogen, Estrone, plus Equilin, a form of estrogen found exclusively in horses, smaller amounts of Estradiol which is also found in humans, and two other horse estrogens. More light is shed on this problem when you begin to compare Premarin's " make-up " with that of the female body. The average woman's estrogen balance is 60-80% Estriol, 10-20% Estrone and 10 to 20% Estradiol (thus it's name triple estrogen). One major problem stands out in this comparison. Premarin is made up of 75-80% Estrone compared to 10-20% in the human body. If that isn't enough, remember that Premarin is a synthetic hormone extracted from the urine of pregnant mares. -Because of that, it is a foreign substance, and therefore can have a deleterious effect on the body. In a study reported in the June 1997 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine, women taking estrogen postmenopausally reported a 59% decrease in death from heart disease. So far so good! But the same study showed that women who took estrogen postmenopausally for 10 years had a 43% increased risk due to breast cancer. Note that the figure leaves out women who were treated successfully for breast cancer with breast removal, radiation or chemotherapy. Lacking the major human estrogen component Estriol, is about as healthy, again as starting a baby on cows milk from birth, and generally compromises immune function. Here's an article from Life Extension that speaks more about this issue: http://www.antiagingatlanta.com/100064.pdf Off to see a patient, Yehuda Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: if you find any true evidence, not just statements, please share. I have seen non so far. I am not sure that " natural " HRT is natural in a sort and i am not sure we can assume it is safer - Musiclear Monday, July 16, 2007 4:01 AM Re: About Estriol Well.... that isn't exactly what I have found. With no disrespect intended, there are many who will say that we haven't found any evidence that Acupuncture works. I would tend to disagree with those people too. I'll see if I can get together some info so support Natural HRT safety info. It would be a good thing for me to have on hand anyway. All the best, Chris In a message dated 7/16/2007 12:34:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, alonmarcus writes: Lets not forget that we do not have any evidence, yet, that " natural " hormone replacement is any safer that Premarin. ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 The problem with measurement is that normal ranges vary widely. also when doing HRT is it OK to restore levels to younger age levels? the answer is NO ONE KNOWS. - yehuda frischman Tuesday, July 17, 2007 7:44 PM Re: About Estriol Again, as was pointed out, Estrogen levels need to be measured and balanced with other hormones such as progesterone, testosterone, DHEA and pregnenolone as well. Otherwise, even with triest, I would contend that studies would be faulty. Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: According to BHRT theory, estriol does not cause proliferation of endometrial and breast tissue and, when given in combination, antagonizes the proliferative effect of the stronger estrogens.4,5 Whileearlier studies suggest that estriol has no effect on the uterus10,15, more recent studies report signifi-cant growth of the endometrium during estriol therapy16,17. Careful monitoring of patients using oral or vaginal estriol formulations is recommended and prophylactic therapy with a progestagen should be considered.5,7,16 Similarly, in regards to breast cancer, animal and epidemiological studies support a protective effect for estriol4 but there are in vitro studies that indicate estriol has stimulatory effect on human breast cancer cells18.19. Until further research clarifies this issue, estriol formulations should not be recommended as an alternative to HRT in women with breast cancer or at risk of breast cancer. - yehuda frischman Tuesday, July 17, 2007 12:56 PM Re: About Estriol See these: http://www.usask.ca/pharmacy-nutrition/services/read.php?id=11 Effects of estrogen or estrogen/ progestin regimens on heart disease risk factors in postmenopausal women. The premenopausal estrogen/ progestin interventions (PEPI) trial. JAMA 1995;273:199-208 Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: well yehuda can you show me any evidence that taking triest is safe. Not just dogmatic talk. show me one human study on triest. It took years to sort out Premarin and we have no data at all on bio-identical hormones. - yehuda frischman Monday, July 16, 2007 7:23 PM Re: About Estriol Alon, Sorry that I haven't participated in this discussion since the outset, but I have been incredibly busy. Forgive me for being so blunt, but you are completely wrong in equating Premarin with " natural " HRT, they are like comparing, well, a woman to a horse! (I would use the same analogy with cows milk, which I grant you is a perfect food...for calves, but for humans is largely intolerated, besides the delicious pesticides, antibiotics and hormones therein but more on that later). The problem with Premarin is that it contains just one " human " estrogen, Estrone, plus Equilin, a form of estrogen found exclusively in horses, smaller amounts of Estradiol which is also found in humans, and two other horse estrogens. More light is shed on this problem when you begin to compare Premarin's " make-up " with that of the female body. The average woman's estrogen balance is 60-80% Estriol, 10-20% Estrone and 10 to 20% Estradiol (thus it's name triple estrogen). One major problem stands out in this comparison. Premarin is made up of 75-80% Estrone compared to 10-20% in the human body. If that isn't enough, remember that Premarin is a synthetic hormone extracted from the urine of pregnant mares. -Because of that, it is a foreign substance, and therefore can have a deleterious effect on the body. In a study reported in the June 1997 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine, women taking estrogen postmenopausally reported a 59% decrease in death from heart disease. So far so good! But the same study showed that women who took estrogen postmenopausally for 10 years had a 43% increased risk due to breast cancer. Note that the figure leaves out women who were treated successfully for breast cancer with breast removal, radiation or chemotherapy. Lacking the major human estrogen component Estriol, is about as healthy, again as starting a baby on cows milk from birth, and generally compromises immune function. Here's an article from Life Extension that speaks more about this issue: http://www.antiagingatlanta.com/100064.pdf Off to see a patient, Yehuda Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: if you find any true evidence, not just statements, please share. I have seen non so far. I am not sure that " natural " HRT is natural in a sort and i am not sure we can assume it is safer - Musiclear Monday, July 16, 2007 4:01 AM Re: About Estriol Well.... that isn't exactly what I have found. With no disrespect intended, there are many who will say that we haven't found any evidence that Acupuncture works. I would tend to disagree with those people too. I'll see if I can get together some info so support Natural HRT safety info. It would be a good thing for me to have on hand anyway. All the best, Chris In a message dated 7/16/2007 12:34:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, alonmarcus writes: Lets not forget that we do not have any evidence, yet, that " natural " hormone replacement is any safer that Premarin. ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Agreed! Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: Premarin is poison, however that does not mean bioidentical is safe. I think all women taking bio identicals need to be better informed. - yehuda frischman Tuesday, July 17, 2007 7:40 PM Re: About Estriol I agree, Alon. However we do know that the ratios in Premarin are not at all consistent with female hormone ratios, and logic would dictate that we mimic the same balance that occurs in healthy females. My best, Yehuda Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: Yehuda This is all very preliminary data. No one knows what the affects of long term use are. Unfortunately we will probably never know because lack of money to study bio identical hormones. - yehuda frischman Tuesday, July 17, 2007 12:56 PM Re: About Estriol See these: http://www.usask.ca/pharmacy-nutrition/services/read.php?id=11 Effects of estrogen or estrogen/ progestin regimens on heart disease risk factors in postmenopausal women. The premenopausal estrogen/ progestin interventions (PEPI) trial. JAMA 1995;273:199-208 Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: well yehuda can you show me any evidence that taking triest is safe. Not just dogmatic talk. show me one human study on triest. It took years to sort out Premarin and we have no data at all on bio-identical hormones. - yehuda frischman Monday, July 16, 2007 7:23 PM Re: About Estriol Alon, Sorry that I haven't participated in this discussion since the outset, but I have been incredibly busy. Forgive me for being so blunt, but you are completely wrong in equating Premarin with " natural " HRT, they are like comparing, well, a woman to a horse! (I would use the same analogy with cows milk, which I grant you is a perfect food...for calves, but for humans is largely intolerated, besides the delicious pesticides, antibiotics and hormones therein but more on that later). The problem with Premarin is that it contains just one " human " estrogen, Estrone, plus Equilin, a form of estrogen found exclusively in horses, smaller amounts of Estradiol which is also found in humans, and two other horse estrogens. More light is shed on this problem when you begin to compare Premarin's " make-up " with that of the female body. The average woman's estrogen balance is 60-80% Estriol, 10-20% Estrone and 10 to 20% Estradiol (thus it's name triple estrogen). One major problem stands out in this comparison. Premarin is made up of 75-80% Estrone compared to 10-20% in the human body. If that isn't enough, remember that Premarin is a synthetic hormone extracted from the urine of pregnant mares. -Because of that, it is a foreign substance, and therefore can have a deleterious effect on the body. In a study reported in the June 1997 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine, women taking estrogen postmenopausally reported a 59% decrease in death from heart disease. So far so good! But the same study showed that women who took estrogen postmenopausally for 10 years had a 43% increased risk due to breast cancer. Note that the figure leaves out women who were treated successfully for breast cancer with breast removal, radiation or chemotherapy. Lacking the major human estrogen component Estriol, is about as healthy, again as starting a baby on cows milk from birth, and generally compromises immune function. Here's an article from Life Extension that speaks more about this issue: http://www.antiagingatlanta.com/100064.pdf Off to see a patient, Yehuda Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: if you find any true evidence, not just statements, please share. I have seen non so far. I am not sure that " natural " HRT is natural in a sort and i am not sure we can assume it is safer - Musiclear Monday, July 16, 2007 4:01 AM Re: About Estriol Well.... that isn't exactly what I have found. With no disrespect intended, there are many who will say that we haven't found any evidence that Acupuncture works. I would tend to disagree with those people too. I'll see if I can get together some info so support Natural HRT safety info. It would be a good thing for me to have on hand anyway. All the best, Chris In a message dated 7/16/2007 12:34:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, alonmarcus writes: Lets not forget that we do not have any evidence, yet, that " natural " hormone replacement is any safer that Premarin. ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Again, I agree. We need to wait and consider as the evidence comes in. But what we can and must do is use Chinese medicine and acupuncture to balance peri and post menopausal women, not treating their hormones per se, but by treating their patterns, the net result will present women who feel good, and who are in balance, no matter what their age is Y Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: The problem with measurement is that normal ranges vary widely. also when doing HRT is it OK to restore levels to younger age levels? the answer is NO ONE KNOWS. - yehuda frischman Tuesday, July 17, 2007 7:44 PM Re: About Estriol Again, as was pointed out, Estrogen levels need to be measured and balanced with other hormones such as progesterone, testosterone, DHEA and pregnenolone as well. Otherwise, even with triest, I would contend that studies would be faulty. Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: According to BHRT theory, estriol does not cause proliferation of endometrial and breast tissue and, when given in combination, antagonizes the proliferative effect of the stronger estrogens.4,5 Whileearlier studies suggest that estriol has no effect on the uterus10,15, more recent studies report signifi-cant growth of the endometrium during estriol therapy16,17. Careful monitoring of patients using oral or vaginal estriol formulations is recommended and prophylactic therapy with a progestagen should be considered.5,7,16 Similarly, in regards to breast cancer, animal and epidemiological studies support a protective effect for estriol4 but there are in vitro studies that indicate estriol has stimulatory effect on human breast cancer cells18.19. Until further research clarifies this issue, estriol formulations should not be recommended as an alternative to HRT in women with breast cancer or at risk of breast cancer. - yehuda frischman Tuesday, July 17, 2007 12:56 PM Re: About Estriol See these: http://www.usask.ca/pharmacy-nutrition/services/read.php?id=11 Effects of estrogen or estrogen/ progestin regimens on heart disease risk factors in postmenopausal women. The premenopausal estrogen/ progestin interventions (PEPI) trial. JAMA 1995;273:199-208 Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: well yehuda can you show me any evidence that taking triest is safe. Not just dogmatic talk. show me one human study on triest. It took years to sort out Premarin and we have no data at all on bio-identical hormones. - yehuda frischman Monday, July 16, 2007 7:23 PM Re: About Estriol Alon, Sorry that I haven't participated in this discussion since the outset, but I have been incredibly busy. Forgive me for being so blunt, but you are completely wrong in equating Premarin with " natural " HRT, they are like comparing, well, a woman to a horse! (I would use the same analogy with cows milk, which I grant you is a perfect food...for calves, but for humans is largely intolerated, besides the delicious pesticides, antibiotics and hormones therein but more on that later). The problem with Premarin is that it contains just one " human " estrogen, Estrone, plus Equilin, a form of estrogen found exclusively in horses, smaller amounts of Estradiol which is also found in humans, and two other horse estrogens. More light is shed on this problem when you begin to compare Premarin's " make-up " with that of the female body. The average woman's estrogen balance is 60-80% Estriol, 10-20% Estrone and 10 to 20% Estradiol (thus it's name triple estrogen). One major problem stands out in this comparison. Premarin is made up of 75-80% Estrone compared to 10-20% in the human body. If that isn't enough, remember that Premarin is a synthetic hormone extracted from the urine of pregnant mares. -Because of that, it is a foreign substance, and therefore can have a deleterious effect on the body. In a study reported in the June 1997 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine, women taking estrogen postmenopausally reported a 59% decrease in death from heart disease. So far so good! But the same study showed that women who took estrogen postmenopausally for 10 years had a 43% increased risk due to breast cancer. Note that the figure leaves out women who were treated successfully for breast cancer with breast removal, radiation or chemotherapy. Lacking the major human estrogen component Estriol, is about as healthy, again as starting a baby on cows milk from birth, and generally compromises immune function. Here's an article from Life Extension that speaks more about this issue: http://www.antiagingatlanta.com/100064.pdf Off to see a patient, Yehuda Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: if you find any true evidence, not just statements, please share. I have seen non so far. I am not sure that " natural " HRT is natural in a sort and i am not sure we can assume it is safer - Musiclear Monday, July 16, 2007 4:01 AM Re: About Estriol Well.... that isn't exactly what I have found. With no disrespect intended, there are many who will say that we haven't found any evidence that Acupuncture works. I would tend to disagree with those people too. I'll see if I can get together some info so support Natural HRT safety info. It would be a good thing for me to have on hand anyway. All the best, Chris In a message dated 7/16/2007 12:34:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, alonmarcus writes: Lets not forget that we do not have any evidence, yet, that " natural " hormone replacement is any safer that Premarin. ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 I agree and it works quite well - yehuda frischman Tuesday, July 17, 2007 8:42 PM Re: About Estriol Again, I agree. We need to wait and consider as the evidence comes in. But what we can and must do is use Chinese medicine and acupuncture to balance peri and post menopausal women, not treating their hormones per se, but by treating their patterns, the net result will present women who feel good, and who are in balance, no matter what their age is Y Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: The problem with measurement is that normal ranges vary widely. also when doing HRT is it OK to restore levels to younger age levels? the answer is NO ONE KNOWS. - yehuda frischman Tuesday, July 17, 2007 7:44 PM Re: About Estriol Again, as was pointed out, Estrogen levels need to be measured and balanced with other hormones such as progesterone, testosterone, DHEA and pregnenolone as well. Otherwise, even with triest, I would contend that studies would be faulty. Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: According to BHRT theory, estriol does not cause proliferation of endometrial and breast tissue and, when given in combination, antagonizes the proliferative effect of the stronger estrogens.4,5 Whileearlier studies suggest that estriol has no effect on the uterus10,15, more recent studies report signifi-cant growth of the endometrium during estriol therapy16,17. Careful monitoring of patients using oral or vaginal estriol formulations is recommended and prophylactic therapy with a progestagen should be considered.5,7,16 Similarly, in regards to breast cancer, animal and epidemiological studies support a protective effect for estriol4 but there are in vitro studies that indicate estriol has stimulatory effect on human breast cancer cells18.19. Until further research clarifies this issue, estriol formulations should not be recommended as an alternative to HRT in women with breast cancer or at risk of breast cancer. - yehuda frischman Tuesday, July 17, 2007 12:56 PM Re: About Estriol See these: http://www.usask.ca/pharmacy-nutrition/services/read.php?id=11 Effects of estrogen or estrogen/ progestin regimens on heart disease risk factors in postmenopausal women. The premenopausal estrogen/ progestin interventions (PEPI) trial. JAMA 1995;273:199-208 Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: well yehuda can you show me any evidence that taking triest is safe. Not just dogmatic talk. show me one human study on triest. It took years to sort out Premarin and we have no data at all on bio-identical hormones. - yehuda frischman Monday, July 16, 2007 7:23 PM Re: About Estriol Alon, Sorry that I haven't participated in this discussion since the outset, but I have been incredibly busy. Forgive me for being so blunt, but you are completely wrong in equating Premarin with " natural " HRT, they are like comparing, well, a woman to a horse! (I would use the same analogy with cows milk, which I grant you is a perfect food...for calves, but for humans is largely intolerated, besides the delicious pesticides, antibiotics and hormones therein but more on that later). The problem with Premarin is that it contains just one " human " estrogen, Estrone, plus Equilin, a form of estrogen found exclusively in horses, smaller amounts of Estradiol which is also found in humans, and two other horse estrogens. More light is shed on this problem when you begin to compare Premarin's " make-up " with that of the female body. The average woman's estrogen balance is 60-80% Estriol, 10-20% Estrone and 10 to 20% Estradiol (thus it's name triple estrogen). One major problem stands out in this comparison. Premarin is made up of 75-80% Estrone compared to 10-20% in the human body. If that isn't enough, remember that Premarin is a synthetic hormone extracted from the urine of pregnant mares. -Because of that, it is a foreign substance, and therefore can have a deleterious effect on the body. In a study reported in the June 1997 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine, women taking estrogen postmenopausally reported a 59% decrease in death from heart disease. So far so good! But the same study showed that women who took estrogen postmenopausally for 10 years had a 43% increased risk due to breast cancer. Note that the figure leaves out women who were treated successfully for breast cancer with breast removal, radiation or chemotherapy. Lacking the major human estrogen component Estriol, is about as healthy, again as starting a baby on cows milk from birth, and generally compromises immune function. Here's an article from Life Extension that speaks more about this issue: http://www.antiagingatlanta.com/100064.pdf Off to see a patient, Yehuda Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: if you find any true evidence, not just statements, please share. I have seen non so far. I am not sure that " natural " HRT is natural in a sort and i am not sure we can assume it is safer - Musiclear Monday, July 16, 2007 4:01 AM Re: About Estriol Well.... that isn't exactly what I have found. With no disrespect intended, there are many who will say that we haven't found any evidence that Acupuncture works. I would tend to disagree with those people too. I'll see if I can get together some info so support Natural HRT safety info. It would be a good thing for me to have on hand anyway. All the best, Chris In a message dated 7/16/2007 12:34:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, alonmarcus writes: Lets not forget that we do not have any evidence, yet, that " natural " hormone replacement is any safer that Premarin. ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2007 Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 This is probably true and I suspect the reason for this seems to be once again, an exaggerated exposure to estrogen in relation to progesterone. From the research I have seen, Women tend to lose progesterone faster than estrogen. This is particularly true in adrenal exhaustion. There for, the longer the overlies produce an estrogen dominant situation, the greater the likely hood of breast and uterine cancer. This is yet another example where balance is key to health. Exposure to any hormones without the appropriate balancing hormone will promote problems. You could loosely look at it from a yin and yang approach. I have heard that estrogen tends to be more yin. The three estrogens operating at greater and lesser degrees of yin. Progesterone tends to operate more yang. It is my belief that we get to come to the best balance in these as possible for overall health, protection and longevity. Every example I look at that creates ill health has to do with imbalance. I believe this a core teaching in our schools and practice? Chris In a message dated 7/17/2007 7:10:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, chinesemed writes: One of the risk factors for breast cancer is a later than normal menopause or an early menarche. If by giving a woman hormones, we're restoring or sustaining her periods, then, we're likely increasing her risk of breast cancer. Hormones help slow some measures of aging (cardiovascular disease ...) but may proliferate or cause cancer in organs that weren't 'meant' to function for so many years. You're just buying more tickets in the cancer lottery the more you're stimulating that reproductive tissue in the uterus and breast. That's been my understanding. Marian ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.