Guest guest Posted July 19, 2007 Report Share Posted July 19, 2007 Gina, I do think that 50-60 minutes is probably standard. But it all depends on your style and or skill level. I have studied with a very experienced and effective practitioner that would only need about 5 minutes for the actual treatment, but because the patients felt ripped off if he sent them out the door (after 5 minutes), he would leave the needles in and let them relax. I personally think that most people need to (and enjoy) laying for some time with the needles, but I also believe that retaining the needles (for an extended amount of time) in 80% of the cases is not important. Once you get things to the place you want everything else after that is icing on the cake. So should you work with him? I say of course! I say work with anyone you can and learn what you can. But really if he does nothing different than any other standard TCM approach except leave the needles in for less time, then this is not that interesting. But if he has the ability to make changes quicker (through his technique) and he can teach you how to monitor this, then this is well worth investigating. Hope this helps. -Jason _____ On Behalf Of Gina Zuleger Wednesday, July 18, 2007 10:19 PM 30 Minute Treatment? Hi All. Your feedback will help me. A colleague treats returning patients (with acupuncture) in 30 minutes (in and out the door). He was surprised that I was shocked he could do a whole treatment in 30 minutes. (He does TCM-style acupuncture.-) For me, if I can get a returning patient on and off the table in 45 minutes, I am quite impressed with myself. It is not a race for me, but I am trying to focus on time management w/o sacrificing quality, detail and of course, results. (He gets great results, BTW.) I know some experienced practitioners are very fast, but how fast? I also know that here in the US, it is different than in other countries. Do you know of many practitioners who see patients in 30 minutes? If yes, how many are out there? I've been treated by many practitioners, some of whom studied here in the US, and some in China. 50-60 minutes seems pretty standard. Any feedback would be great. I am thinking of working with him (eventually)-, and he voiced his " concern " with me being surprised at his 30 minute treatments..-.like somehow 60 minutes is sub-standard performance--wise and business-wise. What is the standard here in the U.S.? Is there one? Thanks, much. Gina Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.8/906 - Release 7/17/2007 6:30 PM Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.8/906 - Release 7/17/2007 6:30 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2007 Report Share Posted July 19, 2007 there are many ideas about needle retention. Tung style acpu often retain needle for 30 min to allow for one complete cycle of qi circulation. - Gina Zuleger Wednesday, July 18, 2007 9:19 PM 30 Minute Treatment? Hi All. Your feedback will help me. A colleague treats returning patients (with acupuncture) in 30 minutes (in and out the door). He was surprised that I was shocked he could do a whole treatment in 30 minutes. (He does TCM-style acupuncture.) For me, if I can get a returning patient on and off the table in 45 minutes, I am quite impressed with myself. It is not a race for me, but I am trying to focus on time management w/o sacrificing quality, detail and of course, results. (He gets great results, BTW.) I know some experienced practitioners are very fast, but how fast? I also know that here in the US, it is different than in other countries. Do you know of many practitioners who see patients in 30 minutes? If yes, how many are out there? I've been treated by many practitioners, some of whom studied here in the US, and some in China. 50-60 minutes seems pretty standard. Any feedback would be great. I am thinking of working with him (eventually), and he voiced his " concern " with me being surprised at his 30 minute treatments...like somehow 60 minutes is sub-standard performance-wise and business-wise. What is the standard here in the U.S.? Is there one? Thanks, much. Gina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2007 Report Share Posted July 19, 2007 Are you talking about retaining the needles for 30 minutes, or the entire patient visit taking 30 minutes? - Bill , " Gina Zuleger " <gzuleger wrote: > > Hi All. > > Your feedback will help me. > > A colleague treats returning patients (with acupuncture) in 30 minutes > (in and out the door). He was surprised that I was shocked he could > do a whole treatment in 30 minutes. (He does TCM-style acupuncture.) > For me, if I can get a returning patient on and off the table in 45 > minutes, I am quite impressed with myself. It is not a race for me, > but I am trying to focus on time management w/o sacrificing quality, > detail and of course, results. (He gets great results, BTW.) > > I know some experienced practitioners are very fast, but how fast? I > also know that here in the US, it is different than in other > countries. Do you know of many practitioners who see patients in 30 > minutes? If yes, how many are out there? > > I've been treated by many practitioners, some of whom studied here in > the US, and some in China. 50-60 minutes seems pretty standard. > > Any feedback would be great. I am thinking of working with him > (eventually), and he voiced his " concern " with me being surprised at > his 30 minute treatments...like somehow 60 minutes is sub-standard > performance-wise and business-wise. What is the standard here in the > U.S.? Is there one? > > Thanks, much. > > Gina > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2007 Report Share Posted July 19, 2007 > Are you talking about retaining the needles for 30 minutes, or the > entire patient visit taking 30 minutes? In and out the door. . .the entire treatment. As a new practitioner, I am happy with getting my patients in and out the door (treatment, pay, reschedule, go to the bathroom) in 55 minutes. I find that I am getting faster at needling and thinking, but it still takes me time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2007 Report Share Posted July 19, 2007 I don't see how it's possible to do a thorough intake, retain needles for 20 - 30 minutes, remove the needles, give the herbs with instructions, and receive payment in that short time period. If he doesn't retain neddles, then it might be possible to do a good job in 30 minutes. Otherwise, it sounds like a rush job. Just my opinion, of course. - Bill , " Gina Zuleger " <gzuleger wrote: > > > > Are you talking about retaining the needles for 30 minutes, or the > > entire patient visit taking 30 minutes? > > > In and out the door. . .the entire treatment. > > As a new practitioner, I am happy with getting my patients in and out > the door (treatment, pay, reschedule, go to the bathroom) in 55 > minutes. I find that I am getting faster at needling and thinking, > but it still takes me time. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2007 Report Share Posted July 19, 2007 If it's a new px.and depending on the issue, it takes longer than 45 minutes because the intake is thorough and tests, and palpation, and what not, but if its a recurrent patient and you're treating a particular issue, that IS NOT musculoskeletal, it should take at least 30 minutes including needle retention. Needling in itself only takes 2 minutes, but retention usually depends on how many free beds you have. To prepare formulas it takes a lot longer than that, especially if you're alone. Glow bill_schoenbart <plantmed2 wrote: I don't see how it's possible to do a thorough intake, retain needles for 20 - 30 minutes, remove the needles, give the herbs with instructions, and receive payment in that short time period. If he doesn't retain neddles, then it might be possible to do a good job in 30 minutes. Otherwise, it sounds like a rush job. Just my opinion, of course. - Bill , " Gina Zuleger " <gzuleger wrote: > > > > Are you talking about retaining the needles for 30 minutes, or the > > entire patient visit taking 30 minutes? > > > In and out the door. . .the entire treatment. > > As a new practitioner, I am happy with getting my patients in and out > the door (treatment, pay, reschedule, go to the bathroom) in 55 > minutes. I find that I am getting faster at needling and thinking, > but it still takes me time. > Shape in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 In my experience there are many different styles of acupuncture, some which are like a needle massage, in and out over dozens of points. I suspect many of you have already figured this out in your own way. However, the way I image what is happening with needling is that of course the first reaction is stimulatory. The body throws up resistance (which includes Qi and nerve force) to a designated point. As the needle remains, the body's resistance subsides -- then there is another and yet even deeper level of resistance with the body subsiding for a deeper level of relaxation. So there are cycles of rallying to throw off the needle and relaxation and in the process if we catch it right energy is moved. Each time the body releases it carries the patient to a deeper level of relaxation. This also means that if the needle is retained too long, the body[s resistive energy becomes exhausted. It is possible and i've done it many times just to inset the needle in the appropriate point, get da qi and pull it out, all in less than 30 seconds and pain is relieved. For more complex organic problems, I think needle retention is most important. As you know, in ancient times acupuncture was a lot of bleeding and just in and out pricking. Eventually as metal needles developed it was possible to retain them longer and new styles arose. Michael Tierra www.planetherbs.com _____ On Behalf Of Gina Zuleger Wednesday, July 18, 2007 9:19 PM 30 Minute Treatment? Hi All. Your feedback will help me. A colleague treats returning patients (with acupuncture) in 30 minutes (in and out the door). He was surprised that I was shocked he could do a whole treatment in 30 minutes. (He does TCM-style acupuncture.) For me, if I can get a returning patient on and off the table in 45 minutes, I am quite impressed with myself. It is not a race for me, but I am trying to focus on time management w/o sacrificing quality, detail and of course, results. (He gets great results, BTW.) I know some experienced practitioners are very fast, but how fast? I also know that here in the US, it is different than in other countries. Do you know of many practitioners who see patients in 30 minutes? If yes, how many are out there? I've been treated by many practitioners, some of whom studied here in the US, and some in China. 50-60 minutes seems pretty standard. Any feedback would be great. I am thinking of working with him (eventually), and he voiced his " concern " with me being surprised at his 30 minute treatments...like somehow 60 minutes is sub-standard performance-wise and business-wise. What is the standard here in the U.S.? Is there one? Thanks, much. Gina _____ << ella for Spam Control >> has removed 1412 Spam messages and set aside 1158 Newsletters for me You can use it too - and it's FREE! www.ellaforspam.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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