Guest guest Posted August 2, 2007 Report Share Posted August 2, 2007 I've started making some formulas as powders. I am trying to keep the herbs as whole form and then grind as needed to preserve freshness / prevent volatile oil degradation. It would be much easier to grind all the herbs and then mix as needed on site without the grinder. Any ideas as to what, if any, benefit there is to grinding right before use vs. a couple of months before use? Thanks Geoff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2007 Report Share Posted August 2, 2007 While in school we used to grind fresh herbs and i remember that in the humid climate of Victoria BC, they could not be stored for long. I am now using powder from Min Tong, and may not be considered a purist as far as freshness, etc, but I can assure you that the result with patient is excellent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2007 Report Share Posted August 3, 2007 Would you grind the herbs right before dispensing them to the patient, or grind when you would get the herbs in stock for later use? I'm from Vancouver, but now live in Springfield, MO, and the humidity is much higher here. I would need to find a good way to keep the powder dry, perhaps using those little silica gel packs. Geoff > > While in school we used to grind fresh herbs and i remember that in > the humid climate of Victoria BC, they could not be stored for long. > > > I am now using powder from Min Tong, and may not be considered a > purist as far as freshness, etc, but I can assure you that the result > with patient is excellent. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2007 Report Share Posted August 3, 2007 What about storing the powders in a refrigerator, which will keep them dry? Or you can buy a de-humidifier (like cigar stores use) How are you going to dispense the powders (ground up herbs)? Are you going to encapsulate them, put them into tea bags or have them cook the powders? K. On 8/3/07, G Hudson <crudo20 wrote: > > Would you grind the herbs right before dispensing them to the patient, > or grind when you would get the herbs in stock for later use? I'm > from Vancouver, but now live in Springfield, MO, and the humidity is > much higher here. I would need to find a good way to keep the powder > dry, perhaps using those little silica gel packs. > > Geoff > > > > > While in school we used to grind fresh herbs and i remember that in > > the humid climate of Victoria BC, they could not be stored for long. > > > > > > I am now using powder from Min Tong, and may not be considered a > > purist as far as freshness, etc, but I can assure you that the result > > with patient is excellent. > > > > > -- aka Mu bong Lim Father of Bhakti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2007 Report Share Posted August 3, 2007 Geoff, I am in Saint Louis so I am familiar with the humidity issue. A friend of mine practices in Florida and ALL of her herbs are done as ground bulk herbs (not extracts) mixed into formulas and half the time put into capsules. With air conditioning the humidity is not a problem, otherwise yeah the silica packs, but most of the herbs are not so hydrophilic that it presents a problem if your patients take them in the time proscribed. The air conditioning takes care of the issue in the office on a 3 month time scale, so if you grind once a month you are usually ok. I would be very interested if your experience differs. As an aside I don't think the water from the air denatures the herbs in anyway, it just makes them clumpy. I think the oxidation of the air and UV exposure are far more harmful to potency. -Darby G Hudson <crudo20 Friday, August 3, 2007 9:16:25 AM Re: Herb powders Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2007 Report Share Posted August 4, 2007 I will have patients steep them in a mug of boiling water, covered, for 10 minutes and drink. I tried some and found it's much better to put the herbs in a coffee filter (cone) so you can get the dregs out after steeping. Since it's a continuous feed grinder, the powder is almost as fine as mayway's granules.. well, more coarse like KPC maybe. I'm interested to see how it goes - sitting next to that mu dan pi powder gives me a headache though - I never did like that smell. Darby - good idea, I think I will grind maybe 200 gms each at a time of general herbs for easy use. I'll probably look for some large mason jars to use for storage or anything else that might be cost effective. Maybe even ziploc freezer bags - except the static is nasty with those light powders. Geoff , " " <johnkokko wrote: > > What about storing the powders in a refrigerator, which will keep them dry? > > Or you can buy a de-humidifier (like cigar stores use) > > How are you going to dispense the powders (ground up herbs)? > Are you going to encapsulate them, put them into tea bags or have them cook > the powders? > > K. > > On 8/3/07, G Hudson <crudo20 wrote: > > > > Would you grind the herbs right before dispensing them to the patient, > > or grind when you would get the herbs in stock for later use? I'm > > from Vancouver, but now live in Springfield, MO, and the humidity is > > much higher here. I would need to find a good way to keep the powder > > dry, perhaps using those little silica gel packs. > > > > Geoff > > > > > > > > While in school we used to grind fresh herbs and i remember that in > > > the humid climate of Victoria BC, they could not be stored for long. > > > > > > > > > I am now using powder from Min Tong, and may not be considered a > > > purist as far as freshness, etc, but I can assure you that the result > > > with patient is excellent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > aka Mu bong Lim > Father of Bhakti > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2007 Report Share Posted August 4, 2007 I'm a medical botanist and have conducted medicinal plant expeditions/collections in muggy, fetid swamp/marsh/wetland/tropical environments. So I had to learn in a hurry how to effectively deal with all kinds of herbal compounds, from all plant parts -- keeping the range in tact from the field to the delivery of processed materials to the laboratory. Outsmarting water-borne parasitic and other plant contaminants taught me several things that might be of use: (1) Different plant compounds react differently to chemical components of air and water. Hence, there's no one simple " do " or " don't " . Some herbal compounds are very stable, some very unstable; some water-soluble, some not; some reactive with the basic constituents of air and water, some not, etc. (2) Any herbal product is going to have some fungal spores somewhere. They are opportunistic and will be delighted with any moisture you might like to provide them. (3) Other contaminants may be present in air and water, including bacterial, as well as a vast array of human-made chemical pollutants floating around. These will no doubt be irresistibly drawn to your ground plant material. (4) Even controlling for air and water, there are the variables of temperature and light. Too cold (especially frozen), too hot (especially exposed to light) and you're going to lose at least some of the constituents. (5) Even the grinder/grinding process you choose can affect the final product if it gives off too much heat/friction. Slow and cool should be your guides. Here are some suggestions -- which may or may not be obvious reminders: (1) The starting point: Make certain of where your whole material comes from, that you can verify its purity and cleanliness and that you know how it was dried; don't " assume " anything; (2) If drying yourself, clean first, then air dry in a dark cool environment with a well-filtered and circulating air flow - and do so immediately. (3) Make sure the material is totally completely utterly dry before grinding, and grind cool and clean. (4) If appropriate, load into capsules immediately. If not, make packets of ground material using wax paper from a natural foods store (do not tape -- fold and wrap sufficiently to hold). (5) Immediately store small batches of capsules/packets in modest-size containers, preferably blue glass ones, or glass canning jars w/ lids. Place these in cool, dark cabinet/chest/shelving -- where you only open and close the door to get out the medicinals. Stable temperature and low light are important. I prefer to put small batches of glass containers in thick brown paper bags with handles from the grocery store. All the information -- re prep dates, i.d. of material, amounts, etc. - can be written on the bag; the bags provide a light/humidity barrier; and it's easy to lift and move batches around quickly. (6) If you need it, the refrigerator is better than the freezer in creating a stabilizing storage environment. As long as your material is packaged and then sealed in glass jars (this is why canning jars are good), it will remain in a temperature and light controlled environment. However, you still need to package the jars so that they'll be uncontaminated by other food stuffs and molds. (7) This entire process provides a nice opportunity for a ritual of infusing the material and the storage area with healing energy, as suits your personal practices, and you will feel this effect returned to you whenever you go there to " gather " an herbal product. I like to think of the herbal material storage place as a nursery for your baby medicinals -- where these living forms are kept swaddled, in health and harmony, till they go off on their own to be healers. Taking short-cuts, hoping for the best, and not paying attention have just about the same results that they do with human kids . . .. sometimes they turn out just fine -- and sometimes they don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2007 Report Share Posted August 4, 2007 Storing in a refrigerator will have exactly the opposite of the desired effect. Unless you remove it from the refrigerator and allow it to come to room temp before opening and put it in the refrigerator and allow it to cool before cooling you will actually increase the amount of water collected from the humid air. That is if you don't have central a/c and I am sure you do. As for the cooking my experience seems to indicate that the increased surface area makes up for any lack of cooking like I say even powered raw herbs in capsules seem to work quite well. -Darby G Hudson <crudo20 Saturday, August 4, 2007 2:52:33 PM Re: Herb powders I will have patients steep them in a mug of boiling water, covered, for 10 minutes and drink. I tried some and found it's much better to put the herbs in a coffee filter (cone) so you can get the dregs out after steeping. Since it's a continuous feed grinder, the powder is almost as fine as mayway's granules.. well, more coarse like KPC maybe. I'm interested to see how it goes - sitting next to that mu dan pi powder gives me a headache though - I never did like that smell. Darby - good idea, I think I will grind maybe 200 gms each at a time of general herbs for easy use. I'll probably look for some large mason jars to use for storage or anything else that might be cost effective. Maybe even ziploc freezer bags - except the static is nasty with those light powders. Geoff , " " <johnkokko@. ..> wrote: > > What about storing the powders in a refrigerator, which will keep them dry? > > Or you can buy a de-humidifier (like cigar stores use) > > How are you going to dispense the powders (ground up herbs)? > Are you going to encapsulate them, put them into tea bags or have them cook > the powders? > > K. > > On 8/3/07, G Hudson <crudo20 > wrote: > > > > Would you grind the herbs right before dispensing them to the patient, > > or grind when you would get the herbs in stock for later use? I'm > > from Vancouver, but now live in Springfield, MO, and the humidity is > > much higher here. I would need to find a good way to keep the powder > > dry, perhaps using those little silica gel packs. > > > > Geoff > > > > > > > > While in school we used to grind fresh herbs and i remember that in > > > the humid climate of Victoria BC, they could not be stored for long. > > > > > > > > > I am now using powder from Min Tong, and may not be considered a > > > purist as far as freshness, etc, but I can assure you that the result > > > with patient is excellent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > aka Mu bong Lim > Father of Bhakti > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2007 Report Share Posted August 6, 2007 Joy - Thank you for your very informative post. It sounds like you have given the topic a lot of thought and field testing. Luckily we can just order the Chinese herbs dried, from suppliers here in the states, and don't have to deal with too many processing issues such as the drying out in special rooms! I suspect, like in an earlier post I quoted from a practitioner in Taiwan, that brown paper bags might actually be suitable for the dry herbs. Wet / moist / oily herbs & insects will need refrigeration. I think that food saver I have might come in handy for those scorpions I just bought. Thanks Geoff , Joy Bannerman <marnebrooke wrote: > > > I'm a medical botanist and have conducted medicinal > plant expeditions/collections in muggy, fetid > swamp/marsh/wetland/tropical environments. So I had > to learn in a hurry how to effectively deal with all > kinds of herbal compounds, from all plant parts -- > keeping the range in tact from the field to the > delivery of processed materials to the laboratory... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2007 Report Share Posted August 6, 2007 Did you find that you can also skip long cooking for powdered herbs that you normally cook first (minerals & fu zi, etc)? Geoff ps - yes, we have A/C in SW Missouri! It's hot enough! , " Darby Valley, L.Ac. " <darby wrote: > > Storing in a refrigerator will have exactly the opposite of the desired effect. Unless you remove it from the refrigerator and allow it to come to room temp before opening and put it in the refrigerator.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 / I've started making some formulas as powders. I am trying to keep the herbs as whole form and then grind as needed to preserve freshness / prevent volatile oil degradation. It would be much easier to grind all the herbs and then mix as needed on site without the grinder. Any ideas as to what, if any, benefit there is to grinding right before use vs. a couple of months before use? Thanks Geoff/ Geoff, The aromatic herbs will lose their volatile oils sitting around, and considerable degradation happens in the first few weeks. In general ground herbs have a shelf life of three months, excluding the shells and minerals. You can probably keep non-aromatic roots longer (and I don't mean just the ones in the aromatic dispel dampness category- anything with a strong smell.) I wouldn't grind any of the leaves or aromatic herbs until just before using. And I would store the ground herbs in airtight glass containers without much extra space or vacuum seal them (although again aromatics or astringents might break down the plastic so you wouldn't want to use vacuum seal with them.) Alternatively you can make up the formulas in advance and grind them together when patients need them. This would allow you to modify them when necessary, at least by addition. Powdering a formula allows you to use much less herb: with the greater surface area exposed to the water you can use as little as a third of a woody or traditionally thick cut herb, but leaves and thin plant material already has a proportionately large surface area exposed so reduce it by much less. -- Karen Vaughan, MSTOM Licensed Acupuncturist, and Herbalist 253 Garfield Place Brooklyn, NY 11215 (718) 622-6755 Co-Conspirator to Make the World A Better Place: Visit http://www.heroicstories.com/ and join the conspiracy See my Acupuncture and Herbalism website at:http://www.byregion.net/profiles/ksvaughan2.html " When you are in doubt, be still, and wait. When doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage. So long as mists envelop you, be still. Be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists -- as it surely will. Then act with courage " White Eagle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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