Guest guest Posted September 27, 2007 Report Share Posted September 27, 2007 In Lyttleton's 'Treating Infertility with TCM' book, she says the start of the menstrual bleeding is day 1. In Maciocia's OB/Gyn book, I believe he says the same thing. However, on the chart in Mac's book on p. 162, Early Period shows the menses starting on day 27, then continuing on day 28, 1, 2, 3. Is that just limited to a calendar month or is it in relation to the day of the menses? I've never seen day 27 referred to as an 'early' period. That all said, I have seen a few women lately with a similar pattern. They have spotting starting around day 24 for 3-7 days before the start of the period, and then the period proper starts. BBT is still elevated until the main flow starts. Overall, the flow amount seems to be about normal to their observation. Total days of discharge is around 10 days or so. I have been telling them to count the first day of spotting as day one, but with the temperature still elevated, I'm not so sure. I'm pretty confident this isn't mid-cycle spotting since the spotting starts late and the main flow starts without a break, and the temp spike happens several days before the spotting starts. Mac's ob/gyn book states that for 'Beng / Lou' - flooding & trickling, that the trickling goes on for several days after the normal or flooding period is over. How would this pattern be classified in TCM? I don't think beng lou fits, early periods aren't long, and long periods aren't early, and the flow amount seems about right. I would say these patients do have heat / yin xu / liv qi zhi in common. I would hazard a guess the heat is forcing the bleeding to start early or qi zhi is preventing the flow, depending on when the first day of bleeding is - heat making it early and qi zhi causing it to be hesitant. Geoff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2007 Report Share Posted September 27, 2007 Geoff, The spotting is NOT CD 1. These patients are having spotting near the end of their cycle, but CD 1 should be considered as the first day of normal menstrual bleeding (usually accompanied by a drop in BBT). The most common causes are SP Qi Xu (not holding Blood) and Yin Xu with Xu Heat. Sometimes, if Yang Xu signs predominate, you may trat it as KD Yang Xu with Kd Qi Not Firm. In my experience, it may take several months to correct, even with a good diagnosis. So, check your diagnostic conclusions, set your course, and hang in there. Hopefully that trickling will clear up. David Karchmer -------------------------------- , " G Hudson " <crudo20 wrote: > > In Lyttleton's 'Treating Infertility with TCM' book, she says the > start of the menstrual bleeding is day 1. In Maciocia's OB/Gyn book, > I believe he says the same thing. However, on the chart in Mac's book > on p. 162, Early Period shows the menses starting on day 27, then > continuing on day 28, 1, 2, 3. Is that just limited to a calendar > month or is it in relation to the day of the menses? I've never seen > day 27 referred to as an 'early' period. > > That all said, I have seen a few women lately with a similar pattern. > They have spotting starting around day 24 for 3-7 days before the > start of the period, and then the period proper starts. BBT is still > elevated until the main flow starts. Overall, the flow amount seems > to be about normal to their observation. Total days of discharge is > around 10 days or so. I have been telling them to count the first day > of spotting as day one, but with the temperature still elevated, I'm > not so sure. I'm pretty confident this isn't mid-cycle spotting since > the spotting starts late and the main flow starts without a break, and > the temp spike happens several days before the spotting starts. Mac's > ob/gyn book states that for 'Beng / Lou' - flooding & trickling, that > the trickling goes on for several days after the normal or flooding > period is over. > > How would this pattern be classified in TCM? I don't think beng lou > fits, early periods aren't long, and long periods aren't early, and > the flow amount seems about right. I would say these patients do have > heat / yin xu / liv qi zhi in common. I would hazard a guess the heat > is forcing the bleeding to start early or qi zhi is preventing the > flow, depending on when the first day of bleeding is - heat making it > early and qi zhi causing it to be hesitant. > > Geoff > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2007 Report Share Posted September 27, 2007 As is the case with any inappropriate bleeding (eg early periods), you've got your heat, and you've got your Spleen qi deficiency. Where the heat is coming from, that can vary, but now it's in the uterus, chong, or ren mai. A likely culprit for the source, as you've mentioned is the Liver and/or Blood. On 9/27/07, G Hudson <crudo20 wrote: > > How would this pattern be classified in TCM? I don't think beng lou > fits, early periods aren't long, and long periods aren't early, and > the flow amount seems about right. I would say these patients do have > heat / yin xu / liv qi zhi in common. I would hazard a guess the heat > is forcing the bleeding to start early or qi zhi is preventing the > flow, depending on when the first day of bleeding is - heat making it > early and qi zhi causing it to be hesitant. > > Geoff > -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2007 Report Share Posted September 28, 2007 I happened upon this from a fertility web site. Doug How do you determine the first day of your cycle? CD1 is the first day you see a red flow, not just intermittent spotting. There is no universal rule for the cutoff time for that date. Some RE's use midnight, others use 5 p.m., but most often CD1 is considered the first day of full flow that begins before mid-afternoon. Again, spotting does not count unless it is a continuous (not intermittent) spotting. Continuous spotting does count as CD1. The fact that the rules of thumb for calculating CD1 are so arbitrary suggests that you've got a little bit of leeway for variation. ____________ > > In Lyttleton's 'Treating Infertility with TCM' book, she says the > > start of the menstrual bleeding is day 1. In Maciocia's OB/Gyn > book, > > I believe he says the same thing. However, on the chart in Mac's > book > > on p. 162, Early Period shows the menses starting on day 27, then > > continuing on day 28, 1, 2, 3. Is that just limited to a calendar > > month or is it in relation to the day of the menses? I've never > seen > > day 27 referred to as an 'early' period. > > > > That all said, I have seen a few women lately with a similar > pattern. > > They have spotting starting around day 24 for 3-7 days before the > > start of the period, and then the period proper starts. BBT is > still > > elevated until the main flow starts. Overall, the flow amount > seems > > to be about normal to their observation. Total days of discharge > is > > around 10 days or so. I have been telling them to count the first > day > > of spotting as day one, but with the temperature still elevated, > I'm > > not so sure. I'm pretty confident this isn't mid-cycle spotting > since > > the spotting starts late and the main flow starts without a break, > and > > the temp spike happens several days before the spotting starts. > Mac's > > ob/gyn book states that for 'Beng / Lou' - flooding & trickling, > that > > the trickling goes on for several days after the normal or flooding > > period is over. > > > > How would this pattern be classified in TCM? I don't think beng > lou > > fits, early periods aren't long, and long periods aren't early, and > > the flow amount seems about right. I would say these patients do > have > > heat / yin xu / liv qi zhi in common. I would hazard a guess the > heat > > is forcing the bleeding to start early or qi zhi is preventing the > > flow, depending on when the first day of bleeding is - heat making > it > > early and qi zhi causing it to be hesitant. > > > > Geoff > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2007 Report Share Posted September 28, 2007 I would agree that the first day of the mense is when there is actual flow. I see many women who come to me saying they have a luteal phase defect because they are including 3-5 days of pre-spotting as flow. I explain to them that although their endometrium is pre maturely breaking down, they do not have a luteal phase defect. The most common cause of pre menstrual spotting that I see in clinic is due to blood heat. This is true especially when there is acne that flares up premenstually. I find that the spotting clears up relatively quickly with herbs to address the blood heat, ie. Qian Cao Gen, Mu dan Pi, and Chi Shao. With the addition of Pu Huang Tan. I usually see results within 1 to 3 cycles. Same for the acne, which I generally treat with a modified Xiao Chai Hu Tang. With herbs added to clear blood heat and resolve fire toxin. Trevor Erikson www.acubalance.ca , " thecornerstoneclinic " <thecornerstoneclinic wrote: > > Geoff, > > The spotting is NOT CD 1. > > These patients are having spotting near the end of their cycle, but > CD 1 should be considered as the first day of normal menstrual > bleeding (usually accompanied by a drop in BBT). > > The most common causes are SP Qi Xu (not holding Blood) and Yin Xu > with Xu Heat. Sometimes, if Yang Xu signs predominate, you may trat > it as KD Yang Xu with Kd Qi Not Firm. > > In my experience, it may take several months to correct, even with a > good diagnosis. So, check your diagnostic conclusions, set your > course, and hang in there. Hopefully that trickling will clear up. > > David Karchmer > > -------------------------------- > , " G Hudson " <crudo20@> > wrote: > > > > In Lyttleton's 'Treating Infertility with TCM' book, she says the > > start of the menstrual bleeding is day 1. In Maciocia's OB/Gyn > book, > > I believe he says the same thing. However, on the chart in Mac's > book > > on p. 162, Early Period shows the menses starting on day 27, then > > continuing on day 28, 1, 2, 3. Is that just limited to a calendar > > month or is it in relation to the day of the menses? I've never > seen > > day 27 referred to as an 'early' period. > > > > That all said, I have seen a few women lately with a similar > pattern. > > They have spotting starting around day 24 for 3-7 days before the > > start of the period, and then the period proper starts. BBT is > still > > elevated until the main flow starts. Overall, the flow amount > seems > > to be about normal to their observation. Total days of discharge > is > > around 10 days or so. I have been telling them to count the first > day > > of spotting as day one, but with the temperature still elevated, > I'm > > not so sure. I'm pretty confident this isn't mid-cycle spotting > since > > the spotting starts late and the main flow starts without a break, > and > > the temp spike happens several days before the spotting starts. > Mac's > > ob/gyn book states that for 'Beng / Lou' - flooding & trickling, > that > > the trickling goes on for several days after the normal or flooding > > period is over. > > > > How would this pattern be classified in TCM? I don't think beng > lou > > fits, early periods aren't long, and long periods aren't early, and > > the flow amount seems about right. I would say these patients do > have > > heat / yin xu / liv qi zhi in common. I would hazard a guess the > heat > > is forcing the bleeding to start early or qi zhi is preventing the > > flow, depending on when the first day of bleeding is - heat making > it > > early and qi zhi causing it to be hesitant. > > > > Geoff > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 Got it, thanks for the input all. What would this 'condition' be called in TCM? Is it still in the category of 'mid-cycle spotting' even though it's not around ovulation? Geoff , " Trevor Erikson " <trevor_erikson wrote: > > I would agree that the first day of the mense is when there is actual flow. I see many > women who come to me saying they have a luteal phase defect because they are including > 3-5 days of pre-spotting as flow. I explain to them that although their endometrium is pre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 Geoff, I'd classify it as uterine bleeding. David Karchmer , " G Hudson " <crudo20 wrote: > > Got it, thanks for the input all. What would this 'condition' be > called in TCM? Is it still in the category of 'mid-cycle spotting' > even though it's not around ovulation? > > Geoff > > , " Trevor Erikson " > <trevor_erikson@> wrote: > > > > I would agree that the first day of the mense is when there is > actual flow. I see many > > women who come to me saying they have a luteal phase defect because > they are including > > 3-5 days of pre-spotting as flow. I explain to them that although > their endometrium is pre > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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