Post-cholecystectomy difficulty initiating action

[Guest guest]

54 y.o. black male limo driver recently underwent radiation therapy for prostate

cancer. Patient's pulse was very deficient in the Gallbladder position and

revealed that he had is gallbladder out approximately two years ago. His Cc: is

difficulty initiating action. He wakes up refreshed in the a.m. with plenty of

enthusiasm and thoughts of a plan for what he wants to accomplish that day and

he has a plan and knows what events he needs to do in which order. The problem

is he has difficulty initiating action on his plan. TCM has an association of

the gallbladder and the zhi roughly translated as will power. I'm thinking that

maybe that has something to do with his Cc.

 

Does anybody have any experience treating this condition?

 

Thanks,

Steve

 

 

 

 

Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Travel.

 

 

[Guest guest]

I'm gonna take a stab at this as I understand it. The kidney is not an issue

here because he

has made the plans and the enthusiasm for them. The issue, as you suggest, is

really in

the gallbladder, but originates in the liver which is failing to actually

accomplish the goals

set. The Gallbladder being Yang is in this case excess while it should be

emptying. The

problem of decision making is also to throw away ideas, this one and not that

one. You

could also say if the gallbladder is not emptying then it is deficient in its

task.

(paradoxically). One could say that with the radiation the liver blood was

damaged, not

allowing it to raise up and push the gallbladder decisions out and down and

away.

 

well, that's the way I see it. :-)

Doug

 

 

 

, Steve Sterling <acusteve1 wrote:

>

> 54 y.o. black male limo driver recently underwent radiation therapy for

prostate cancer.

Patient's pulse was very deficient in the Gallbladder position and revealed that

he had is

gallbladder out approximately two years ago. His Cc: is difficulty initiating

action. He

wakes up refreshed in the a.m. with plenty of enthusiasm and thoughts of a plan

for what

he wants to accomplish that day and he has a plan and knows what events he needs

to do

in which order. The problem is he has difficulty initiating action on his plan.

TCM has an

association of the gallbladder and the zhi roughly translated as will power.

I'm thinking

that maybe that has something to do with his Cc.

>

> Does anybody have any experience treating this condition?

>

> Thanks,

> Steve

>

>

>

>

> Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Travel.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Huh? What is pushing " out and down and away " ?

 

 

 

I'm not sure where the theoretical break came for gallbladder issues, but there

was a time when the gallbladder was regarded as more than a simple bowel, its

inclusion in the curious organs confirms its odd status, though most TCM texts

don't make a big deal about these as they are mostly ancillary structures.The

gallbladder was once thought to govern yang, especially as it related to spirit

and bravery, hence the use of the term gallbladder to indicate bravery or " guts "

in colloquial Chinese, and English as " gall " . Even the character for gallbladder

contains interesting aspects: the complex form has the flesh radical plus a

component that indicates both/either danger and decision-making. The simplified

character contains a sun rising over the horizon, perhaps connoting the

relationship of the organ with the body's rising yang qi.

 

 

 

Gallbladder qi/yang is traditionally associated with the " wise judge " where

liver is the " brave general " . In liver yang vacuity you see a general lassitude

and fearfulness, as the heart disconnected from ministerial fire that the liver

is failing to send upwards. Heart gallbladder qi vacuity is characterized by

more fearfulness and timidity. The heart is the seat of the shen (consciousness

in most of its Western connotations). The Emperor was traditionally the inert

center around which all else revolved, so the driving force of the liver and the

fine-tuning of the gallbladder provide direction and impetus to the zhi

(mind/will). The kidney stores a memory/determination of destiny (the " ming " in

" ming men " ), which must be translated into action by the shen/consciousness.

 

 

 

The vigor of the kidney is in large part related to the strength of this

expression, but the spiritual axis of mind/will and consciousness (heart kidney)

is mediated by many factors. Any structure, organ or substance lying between the

lower and upper burner can potentially affect this dynamic. For instance, phlegm

and damp, food stasis, depressed liver qi all inhibit the clear expression of

the mind/will via consciousness. I don't know about the community at large, but

the school where I work generally limits the concept of disruption of this

dynamic of " kidney and heart failing to communicate " to a simple failure of the

heart and kidney's fire/water relationship, the etiology of which is typically

shock or fear damaging kidney and heart. It seems to me that this is a broader

concept that should include all of the mediating organs and substances, and can

be differentiated in a much greater variety of ways.

 

 

 

I'm not sure how liver blood relates to this scenario. It grounds and houses

shen and hun, maintains liver qi... if it were damaged it would contribute to

improper expressions of kidney yang/qi rising, or internal movement of wind. If

you attribute the gallbladder's judging capacity to the hun then perhaps a

flightly hun would fail to judge effectively...?

 

 

 

All that said, Steve starts out with the preposition that the gallbladder/liver

is responsible on some level for this apparent inertia in his patient. If there

is yang and qi vacuity of the liver gallbladder there is most likely a root

issue in the kidney, or in the relationship of the kidney and the heart as it is

mediated by the liver/gallbladder. I have found in cases of qi/yang vacuity

based anxiety that moving liver qi and raising yang works pretty well, but will

only provide temporary relief if the kidney yang is vacuous. Lately another

thought has occurred to me (this is a bit MSU): spleen yang/qi has a containment

function which may channel/augment liver qi and yang's functional nature. It may

be worth looking at a spleen-heart astringing and supplementing type of

treatment (also used with gallbladder/heart qi vacuity), as one would with other

anxiety/overwhelm situations and see how that works. To some extent, any vacuity

of qi and yang reflects poorly on the kidney so... my main problem with this

case is that the qi/yang of a strong functioning kidney has to go somewhere, so

if kidney is really not the issue, there should be more of a liver qi depression

presentation as the bottled-up/unexpressed mind/will fails to resolve, attacks

horizontally or breeds depressed heat. It's probably worth really looking at

kidney again if none of that is evident.

 

 

 

Par Scott

 

 

 

-

 

Tuesday, October 02, 2007 1:40 AM

Re: Post-cholecystectomy difficulty initiating action

 

 

I'm gonna take a stab at this as I understand it. The kidney is not an issue

here because he

has made the plans and the enthusiasm for them. The issue, as you suggest, is

really in

the gallbladder, but originates in the liver which is failing to actually

accomplish the goals

set. The Gallbladder being Yang is in this case excess while it should be

emptying. The

problem of decision making is also to throw away ideas, this one and not that

one. You

could also say if the gallbladder is not emptying then it is deficient in its

task.

(paradoxically). One could say that with the radiation the liver blood was

damaged, not

allowing it to raise up and push the gallbladder decisions out and down and

away.

 

well, that's the way I see it. :-)

Doug

 

, Steve Sterling <acusteve1

wrote:

>

> 54 y.o. black male limo driver recently underwent radiation therapy for

prostate cancer.

Patient's pulse was very deficient in the Gallbladder position and revealed

that he had is

gallbladder out approximately two years ago. His Cc: is difficulty initiating

action. He

wakes up refreshed in the a.m. with plenty of enthusiasm and thoughts of a

plan for what

he wants to accomplish that day and he has a plan and knows what events he

needs to do

in which order. The problem is he has difficulty initiating action on his

plan. TCM has an

association of the gallbladder and the zhi roughly translated as will power.

I'm thinking

that maybe that has something to do with his Cc.

>

> Does anybody have any experience treating this condition?

>

> Thanks,

> Steve

>

>

>

>

> Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Travel.

>

>

[Guest guest]

, " Par Scott " <parufus wrote:

>

> Huh? What is pushing " out and down and away " ?

>

 

" the liver blood was damaged, not allowing it to raise up and push the

gallbladder

decisions out and down and away. "

I'm trying to evoke the imagery of the liver - gallbladder trajectory and

functions. Where

you saw the liver qi stagnation (at the end of your post) I'm suggesting a liver

blood

deficiency.

Doug

 

 

>

> I'm not sure where the theoretical break came for gallbladder issues, but

there was a

time when the gallbladder was regarded as more than a simple bowel, its

inclusion in the

curious organs confirms its odd status, though most TCM texts don't make a big

deal

about these as they are mostly ancillary structures.The gallbladder was once

thought to

govern yang, especially as it related to spirit and bravery, hence the use of

the term

gallbladder to indicate bravery or " guts " in colloquial Chinese, and English as

" gall " . Even

the character for gallbladder contains interesting aspects: the complex form has

the flesh

radical plus a component that indicates both/either danger and decision-making.

The

simplified character contains a sun rising over the horizon, perhaps connoting

the

relationship of the organ with the body's rising yang qi.

>

>

>

> Gallbladder qi/yang is traditionally associated with the " wise judge " where

liver is the

" brave general " . In liver yang vacuity you see a general lassitude and

fearfulness, as the

heart disconnected from ministerial fire that the liver is failing to send

upwards. Heart

gallbladder qi vacuity is characterized by more fearfulness and timidity. The

heart is the

seat of the shen (consciousness in most of its Western connotations). The

Emperor was

traditionally the inert center around which all else revolved, so the driving

force of the

liver and the fine-tuning of the gallbladder provide direction and impetus to

the zhi

(mind/will). The kidney stores a memory/determination of destiny (the " ming " in

" ming

men " ), which must be translated into action by the shen/consciousness.

>

>

>

> The vigor of the kidney is in large part related to the strength of this

expression, but the

spiritual axis of mind/will and consciousness (heart kidney) is mediated by many

factors.

Any structure, organ or substance lying between the lower and upper burner can

potentially affect this dynamic. For instance, phlegm and damp, food stasis,

depressed

liver qi all inhibit the clear expression of the mind/will via consciousness. I

don't know

about the community at large, but the school where I work generally limits the

concept of

disruption of this dynamic of " kidney and heart failing to communicate " to a

simple failure

of the heart and kidney's fire/water relationship, the etiology of which is

typically shock or

fear damaging kidney and heart. It seems to me that this is a broader concept

that should

include all of the mediating organs and substances, and can be differentiated in

a much

greater variety of ways.

>

>

>

> I'm not sure how liver blood relates to this scenario. It grounds and houses

shen and

hun, maintains liver qi... if it were damaged it would contribute to improper

expressions

of kidney yang/qi rising, or internal movement of wind. If you attribute the

gallbladder's

judging capacity to the hun then perhaps a flightly hun would fail to judge

effectively...?

>

>

>

> All that said, Steve starts out with the preposition that the

gallbladder/liver is

responsible on some level for this apparent inertia in his patient. If there is

yang and qi

vacuity of the liver gallbladder there is most likely a root issue in the

kidney, or in the

relationship of the kidney and the heart as it is mediated by the

liver/gallbladder. I have

found in cases of qi/yang vacuity based anxiety that moving liver qi and raising

yang

works pretty well, but will only provide temporary relief if the kidney yang is

vacuous.

Lately another thought has occurred to me (this is a bit MSU): spleen yang/qi

has a

containment function which may channel/augment liver qi and yang's functional

nature. It

may be worth looking at a spleen-heart astringing and supplementing type of

treatment

(also used with gallbladder/heart qi vacuity), as one would with other

anxiety/overwhelm

situations and see how that works. To some extent, any vacuity of qi and yang

reflects

poorly on the kidney so... my main problem with this case is that the qi/yang of

a strong

functioning kidney has to go somewhere, so if kidney is really not the issue,

there should

be more of a liver qi depression presentation as the bottled-up/unexpressed

mind/will

fails to resolve, attacks horizontally or breeds depressed heat. It's probably

worth really

looking at kidney again if none of that is evident.

>

>

>

> Par Scott

>

>

>

> -

>

>

>

> Tuesday, October 02, 2007 1:40 AM

> Re: Post-cholecystectomy difficulty initiating action

>

>

> I'm gonna take a stab at this as I understand it. The kidney is not an issue

here because

he

> has made the plans and the enthusiasm for them. The issue, as you suggest,

is really in

> the gallbladder, but originates in the liver which is failing to actually

accomplish the

goals

> set. The Gallbladder being Yang is in this case excess while it should be

emptying. The

> problem of decision making is also to throw away ideas, this one and not

that one. You

> could also say if the gallbladder is not emptying then it is deficient in

its task.

> (paradoxically). One could say that with the radiation the liver blood was

damaged, not

> allowing it to raise up and push the gallbladder decisions out and down and

away.

>

> well, that's the way I see it. :-)

> Doug

>

> , Steve Sterling <acusteve1@>

wrote:

> >

> > 54 y.o. black male limo driver recently underwent radiation therapy for

prostate

cancer.

> Patient's pulse was very deficient in the Gallbladder position and revealed

that he had

is

> gallbladder out approximately two years ago. His Cc: is difficulty

initiating action. He

> wakes up refreshed in the a.m. with plenty of enthusiasm and thoughts of a

plan for

what

> he wants to accomplish that day and he has a plan and knows what events he

needs to

do

> in which order. The problem is he has difficulty initiating action on his

plan. TCM has

an

> association of the gallbladder and the zhi roughly translated as will power.

I'm thinking

> that maybe that has something to do with his Cc.

> >

> > Does anybody have any experience treating this condition?

> >

> > Thanks,

> > Steve

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Travel.

> >

> >