Guest guest Posted October 16, 2007 Report Share Posted October 16, 2007 Hello fellow herbalists, Last week, I posted the ingredients for 3 Liver Vacuity formulas, hoping for a response, of which I got none. The only semi-response was from a practitioner replying to someone else about something unrelated to my post. So I'm asking again. Does anyone know of any specific formulas (with doasages) for treating Liver Yang vacuity? I've gone through CHAs entire database and can't find anything. Bensky has a modified Wen Dan Tang for Gall Bladder vacuity and Three Treasures sells a Heart Yang formula, both of which are pretty elegant. But I havent found any Liver Yang formulas. And as I said in my previous post, given the unique complexity of herbal combinations, before I " make-up " and experiment with what I think are probably appropriate amounts, I'd prefer to hear what others think. I'm really surprised that no one has attempted to answer my question...that is, unless there's some kind of unspoken rule for not doing so. Yours truely, Postimo Jules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2007 Report Share Posted October 16, 2007 Postimo, " Pathomechanisms of the Liver " lists four patterns of liver yang vacuity: 1) Impaired warming of the liver Prescription: bu gan yang fang/liver yang supplementing formula ( rou gui, chuan jiao, rou cong rong) It is often augmented with huang qi, dang shen, bai zhu, yin yang huo, lu jiao, dang gui and fu zi. 2) Liver yang fall Prescription: nuan gan jian/liver warming brew (see text for ingredients, long formula) 3) Liver/stomach yang vacuity Prescription: wu zhu yu tang/evodia decoction (wu zhu yu, ren shen, sheng jiang, da zao) from Shang Han Lun 4) Liver/kidney yang vacuity Prescription: bu gan yang fang/liver yang supplementing formula (rou gui, chuan jiao, rou cong rong, huang qi, dang shen, tuo yang, yin yang huo, lu jiao, ba ji tian, fu zi). I hope this is of help. On Oct 16, 2007, at 8:09 AM, postimo wrote: > Hello fellow herbalists, > > Last week, I posted the ingredients for 3 Liver Vacuity formulas, > hoping for a response, of which I got none. > > The only semi-response was from a practitioner replying to someone > else > about something unrelated to my post. > > So I'm asking again. Does anyone know of any specific formulas (with > doasages) for treating Liver Yang vacuity? I've gone through CHAs > entire database and can't find anything. Bensky has a modified Wen Dan > Tang for Gall Bladder vacuity and Three Treasures sells a Heart Yang > formula, both of which are pretty elegant. But I havent found any > Liver > Yang formulas. > > And as I said in my previous post, given the unique complexity of > herbal combinations, before I " make-up " and experiment with what I > think are probably appropriate amounts, I'd prefer to hear what others > think. I'm really surprised that no one has attempted to answer my > question...that is, unless there's some kind of unspoken rule for not > doing so. > > Yours truely, > > Postimo Jules > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2007 Report Share Posted October 16, 2007 Dear Postimo, I think that lack of response to your post is that it is a difficult question. Many herbs texts do not list dosages. Why? This is because they are somewhat meaningless for the patient that is sitting in front of you now. Meaning dosage is very dependent on the individual situation / patient. One can look in Bensky's Materia Medica and get a sense of dosage ranges if you are unsure, otherwise the amount of each herb should be in relation to issues that are present in your patient. IMO, formulas are not written as static entities and must be flexibly applied to the individual. On the other side of the coin, I DO have dosages for the formulas that you are looking for. Unfortunately I am in China and do not have access to my library. Maybe someone else can take over. Hope that helps somewhat, -Jason _____ On Behalf Of postimo Tuesday, October 16, 2007 11:09 PM Liver Vacuity Formulas Hello fellow herbalists, Last week, I posted the ingredients for 3 Liver Vacuity formulas, hoping for a response, of which I got none. The only semi-response was from a practitioner replying to someone else about something unrelated to my post. So I'm asking again. Does anyone know of any specific formulas (with doasages) for treating Liver Yang vacuity? I've gone through CHAs entire database and can't find anything. Bensky has a modified Wen Dan Tang for Gall Bladder vacuity and Three Treasures sells a Heart Yang formula, both of which are pretty elegant. But I havent found any Liver Yang formulas. And as I said in my previous post, given the unique complexity of herbal combinations, before I " make-up " and experiment with what I think are probably appropriate amounts, I'd prefer to hear what others think. I'm really surprised that no one has attempted to answer my question...that is, unless there's some kind of unspoken rule for not doing so. Yours truely, Postimo Jules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2007 Report Share Posted October 16, 2007 Hi Zev and thanks. Specifically concerning Nuan Gan Jian, is there anything I should keep in mind with certain herbal combinations? It's a very large formula with a significant number of additional ingredients, which makes the total number of possible combinations confusing. I dont want to loose the intended essence by modifying it inappropriately. For starters, with Dang Gui as the Chief herb, I'm not sure if it requires a large or small dosage. This is the storehouse of Blood after all and any Liver vacuity will naturally affect Blood.... Moving on from there, Im not sure why Xiao Hui Xiang is part of the primary formula when much more potent medicinals are listed as ancillary ingredients. I know its functions, but many of the other herbs also accomplish the same thing. There's also the choice of Fang Feng vs Chai Hu. And again, with all the Yang tonics and warm interior herbs, why is Wu yao a primary ingredient? There's a lot of expanding & disseminating medicinals and potent Yang ingredients, all of which could easily damage an already weakened Liver. For anyone else who cares to comment, these are the listed ingredients. You can see how it can easily go in any number of directions. For Liver Yang Fall Nuan Gan Jian / Liver-Warming Brew: Dang gui Gou qi zi Xiao hui xiang Rou gui Wu yao Chen xiang Fu ling Plus: Huang qi Dang shen Chai hu Sheng ma Fang feng Rou cong rong Tu si zi Zhi fu zi Chao bai shao Shan zhu yu Thanks, Pos. , " " <zrosenbe wrote: > > Postimo, > " Pathomechanisms of the Liver " lists four patterns of liver yang > vacuity: > > 1) Impaired warming of the liver > Prescription: bu gan yang fang/liver yang supplementing formula > ( rou gui, chuan jiao, rou cong rong) It is often augmented with > huang qi, dang shen, bai zhu, yin yang huo, lu jiao, dang gui and fu zi. > > 2) Liver yang fall > Prescription: nuan gan jian/liver warming brew (see text for > ingredients, long formula) > > 3) Liver/stomach yang vacuity > Prescription: wu zhu yu tang/evodia decoction (wu zhu yu, ren shen, > sheng jiang, da zao) from Shang Han Lun > > 4) Liver/kidney yang vacuity > Prescription: bu gan yang fang/liver yang supplementing formula (rou > gui, chuan jiao, rou cong rong, huang qi, dang shen, tuo yang, yin > yang huo, lu jiao, ba ji tian, fu zi). > > I hope this is of help. > > > > On Oct 16, 2007, at 8:09 AM, postimo wrote: > > > Hello fellow herbalists, > > > > Last week, I posted the ingredients for 3 Liver Vacuity formulas, > > hoping for a response, of which I got none. > > > > The only semi-response was from a practitioner replying to someone > > else > > about something unrelated to my post. > > > > So I'm asking again. Does anyone know of any specific formulas (with > > doasages) for treating Liver Yang vacuity? I've gone through CHAs > > entire database and can't find anything. Bensky has a modified Wen Dan > > Tang for Gall Bladder vacuity and Three Treasures sells a Heart Yang > > formula, both of which are pretty elegant. But I havent found any > > Liver > > Yang formulas. > > > > And as I said in my previous post, given the unique complexity of > > herbal combinations, before I " make-up " and experiment with what I > > think are probably appropriate amounts, I'd prefer to hear what others > > think. I'm really surprised that no one has attempted to answer my > > question...that is, unless there's some kind of unspoken rule for not > > doing so. > > > > Yours truely, > > > > Postimo Jules > > > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2007 Report Share Posted October 17, 2007 Here is a sample from the Rootdown TCM site. Another site has only slighty different dosages. I/we are not quite sure what you are asking here. Formulas develop for a number of geographic and historical and personal reasons. They generally are tied to a set of symptoms only later can one see the pattern differentiation. ( I know this is up for a lot of discussion) As such its kind of useless to ask " why this herb and not this herb? " . I have one colleague who thinks Shan Yao is a mistake in Liu Wei Di Huang. Now that's pretty heretical. Formulas get to be formulas because someone writes it down and puts a name to it. If it works well enough (and enough people hear or read about it) then it endures. As to the formula itself then its not a matter of putting the most potent herbs in each category. Often there are issues of directionality, channel, etc... Obviously, adding too many of the most potent can be disastrous with out considering the over all effect. Herbs that seem out of place generally have secondary effects and properties that are found only in the 3rd Edition of Bensky, the 8 volume Ben Cao or the experienced mind of a master herbalist. Digging ones hands into the raw herbs often provides answers. And as usual, formulas (unless you are in a Shan Han mood) are only a guideline. Additions can address a general deviation from the main, often simple main diagnosis or specific symptoms. Hope this helps, Doug Nuan Gan Jian / Liver-Warming Brew: > Dang gui 6-9 > Gou qi zi 9 > Xiao hui xiang 6 > Rou gui 3-6 > Wu yao 6 > Chen xiang - 3 although another site suggest 3-6 and Mu xiang may be substituted > Fu ling - 6 > Plus: > Huang qi > Dang shen > Chai hu > Sheng ma > Fang feng > Rou cong rong > Tu si zi > Zhi fu zi > Chao bai shao > Shan zhu yu http://www.rootdown.us/Formulas/Nuan-Gan-Jian , " postimo " <postimo wrote: > > Hi Zev and thanks. > > Specifically concerning Nuan Gan Jian, is there anything I should > keep in mind with certain herbal combinations? > It's a very large formula with a significant number of additional > ingredients, which makes the total number of possible combinations > confusing. I dont want to loose the intended essence by modifying it > inappropriately. > > For starters, with Dang Gui as the Chief herb, I'm not sure if it > requires a large or small dosage. This is the storehouse of Blood > after all and any Liver vacuity will naturally affect Blood.... > > > Moving on from there, Im not sure why Xiao Hui Xiang is part of the > primary formula when much more potent medicinals are listed as > ancillary ingredients. I know its functions, but many of the other > herbs also accomplish the same thing. > There's also the choice of Fang Feng vs Chai Hu. And again, with all > the Yang tonics and warm interior herbs, why is Wu yao a primary > ingredient? > > There's a lot of expanding & disseminating medicinals and potent Yang > ingredients, all of which could easily damage an already weakened > Liver. > > For anyone else who cares to comment, these are the listed > ingredients. You can see how it can easily go in any number of > directions. > > For Liver Yang Fall > > Nuan Gan Jian / Liver-Warming Brew: > Dang gui > Gou qi zi > Xiao hui xiang > Rou gui > Wu yao > Chen xiang > Fu ling > Plus: > Huang qi > Dang shen > Chai hu > Sheng ma > Fang feng > Rou cong rong > Tu si zi > Zhi fu zi > Chao bai shao > Shan zhu yu > > > Thanks, > > > Pos. > > > , " " > <zrosenbe@> wrote: > > > > Postimo, > > " Pathomechanisms of the Liver " lists four patterns of liver > yang > > vacuity: > > > > 1) Impaired warming of the liver > > Prescription: bu gan yang fang/liver yang supplementing formula > > ( rou gui, chuan jiao, rou cong rong) It is often augmented with > > huang qi, dang shen, bai zhu, yin yang huo, lu jiao, dang gui and > fu zi. > > > > 2) Liver yang fall > > Prescription: nuan gan jian/liver warming brew (see text for > > ingredients, long formula) > > > > 3) Liver/stomach yang vacuity > > Prescription: wu zhu yu tang/evodia decoction (wu zhu yu, ren > shen, > > sheng jiang, da zao) from Shang Han Lun > > > > 4) Liver/kidney yang vacuity > > Prescription: bu gan yang fang/liver yang supplementing formula > (rou > > gui, chuan jiao, rou cong rong, huang qi, dang shen, tuo yang, yin > > yang huo, lu jiao, ba ji tian, fu zi). > > > > I hope this is of help. > > > > > > > > On Oct 16, 2007, at 8:09 AM, postimo wrote: > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2007 Report Share Posted October 17, 2007 Wow! I just checked out rootdown. It¹s like a facebook for us. What a terrific effort. anyway: shan yao a mistake? I¹d like to hear the argument for that one. I feel that liu wei di huang wan is an example of perfect mathematical herbal balance. I think it¹s brilliant. And the longer I practice the more I am impressed with it. furthermore: when discussing cold in the liver ( channel) most formulas are discussing the diagnoses and treatment of hernial disorders. Taken in this context the use of xiao hui xiang as an chief herb is obvious. C Wed, 17 Oct 2007 21:23:02 +0000 Re: Liver Vacuity Formulas Here is a sample from the Rootdown TCM site. Another site has only slighty different dosages. I/we are not quite sure what you are asking here. Formulas develop for a number of geographic and historical and personal reasons. They generally are tied to a set of symptoms only later can one see the pattern differentiation. ( I know this is up for a lot of discussion) As such its kind of useless to ask " why this herb and not this herb? " . I have one colleague who thinks Shan Yao is a mistake in Liu Wei Di Huang. Now that's pretty heretical. Formulas get to be formulas because someone writes it down and puts a name to it. If it works well enough (and enough people hear or read about it) then it endures. As to the formula itself then its not a matter of putting the most potent herbs in each category. Often there are issues of directionality, channel, etc... Obviously, adding too many of the most potent can be disastrous with out considering the over all effect. Herbs that seem out of place generally have secondary effects and properties that are found only in the 3rd Edition of Bensky, the 8 volume Ben Cao or the experienced mind of a master herbalist. Digging ones hands into the raw herbs often provides answers. And as usual, formulas (unless you are in a Shan Han mood) are only a guideline. Additions can address a general deviation from the main, often simple main diagnosis or specific symptoms. Hope this helps, Doug Nuan Gan Jian / Liver-Warming Brew: > Dang gui 6-9 > Gou qi zi 9 > Xiao hui xiang 6 > Rou gui 3-6 > Wu yao 6 > Chen xiang - 3 although another site suggest 3-6 and Mu xiang may be substituted > Fu ling - 6 > Plus: > Huang qi > Dang shen > Chai hu > Sheng ma > Fang feng > Rou cong rong > Tu si zi > Zhi fu zi > Chao bai shao > Shan zhu yu http://www.rootdown.us/Formulas/Nuan-Gan-Jian <%40> , " postimo " <postimo wrote: > > Hi Zev and thanks. > > Specifically concerning Nuan Gan Jian, is there anything I should > keep in mind with certain herbal combinations? > It's a very large formula with a significant number of additional > ingredients, which makes the total number of possible combinations > confusing. I dont want to loose the intended essence by modifying it > inappropriately. > > For starters, with Dang Gui as the Chief herb, I'm not sure if it > requires a large or small dosage. This is the storehouse of Blood > after all and any Liver vacuity will naturally affect Blood.... > > > Moving on from there, Im not sure why Xiao Hui Xiang is part of the > primary formula when much more potent medicinals are listed as > ancillary ingredients. I know its functions, but many of the other > herbs also accomplish the same thing. > There's also the choice of Fang Feng vs Chai Hu. And again, with all > the Yang tonics and warm interior herbs, why is Wu yao a primary > ingredient? > > There's a lot of expanding & disseminating medicinals and potent Yang > ingredients, all of which could easily damage an already weakened > Liver. > > For anyone else who cares to comment, these are the listed > ingredients. You can see how it can easily go in any number of > directions. > > For Liver Yang Fall > > Nuan Gan Jian / Liver-Warming Brew: > Dang gui > Gou qi zi > Xiao hui xiang > Rou gui > Wu yao > Chen xiang > Fu ling > Plus: > Huang qi > Dang shen > Chai hu > Sheng ma > Fang feng > Rou cong rong > Tu si zi > Zhi fu zi > Chao bai shao > Shan zhu yu > > > Thanks, > > > Pos. > > > <%40> , " " > <zrosenbe@> wrote: > > > > Postimo, > > " Pathomechanisms of the Liver " lists four patterns of liver > yang > > vacuity: > > > > 1) Impaired warming of the liver > > Prescription: bu gan yang fang/liver yang supplementing formula > > ( rou gui, chuan jiao, rou cong rong) It is often augmented with > > huang qi, dang shen, bai zhu, yin yang huo, lu jiao, dang gui and > fu zi. > > > > 2) Liver yang fall > > Prescription: nuan gan jian/liver warming brew (see text for > > ingredients, long formula) > > > > 3) Liver/stomach yang vacuity > > Prescription: wu zhu yu tang/evodia decoction (wu zhu yu, ren > shen, > > sheng jiang, da zao) from Shang Han Lun > > > > 4) Liver/kidney yang vacuity > > Prescription: bu gan yang fang/liver yang supplementing formula > (rou > > gui, chuan jiao, rou cong rong, huang qi, dang shen, tuo yang, yin > > yang huo, lu jiao, ba ji tian, fu zi). > > > > I hope this is of help. > > > > > > > > On Oct 16, 2007, at 8:09 AM, postimo wrote: > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2007 Report Share Posted October 17, 2007 Hi Doug and thanks for your input. This looks comparable to what I was initially thinking. What threw me for a loop were all the ancillary herbs and since I didn't have any other resources to reference...I posted my question. BTW, I've never heard of rootdown either. It looks really interesting. I know ingredient choices are open to debate because it's the foundation of our practice. It's interesting that the website author lists xiao hui xiang as chief, rather than dang gui. This version seems more like warming cold stagnation than anything else, which is slightly different than the pattern presentation in the book. So thanks again, Pos. , " " wrote: > > Here is a sample from the Rootdown TCM site. Another site has only > slighty different dosages. I/we are not quite sure what you are asking > here. Formulas develop for a number of geographic and historical and > personal reasons. They generally are tied to a set of symptoms only > later can one see the pattern differentiation. ( I know this is up for > a lot of discussion) As such its kind of useless to ask " why this herb > and not this herb? " . I have one colleague who thinks Shan Yao is a > mistake in Liu Wei Di Huang. Now that's pretty heretical. Formulas get > to be formulas because someone writes it down and puts a name to it. > If it works well enough (and enough people hear or read about it) then > it endures. > As to the formula itself then its not a matter of putting the most > potent herbs in each category. Often there are issues of > directionality, channel, etc... Obviously, adding too many of the most > potent can be disastrous with out considering the over all effect. > Herbs that seem out of place generally have secondary effects and > properties that are found only in the 3rd Edition of Bensky, the 8 > volume Ben Cao or the experienced mind of a master herbalist. Digging > ones hands into the raw herbs often provides answers. > And as usual, formulas (unless you are in a Shan Han mood) are only a > guideline. Additions can address a general deviation from the main, > often simple main diagnosis or specific symptoms. > Hope this helps, > Doug > > > > Nuan Gan Jian / Liver-Warming Brew: > > Dang gui 6-9 > > Gou qi zi 9 > > Xiao hui xiang 6 > > Rou gui 3-6 > > Wu yao 6 > > Chen xiang - 3 although another site suggest 3-6 and Mu xiang may > be substituted > > Fu ling - 6 > > Plus: > > Huang qi > > Dang shen > > Chai hu > > Sheng ma > > Fang feng > > Rou cong rong > > Tu si zi > > Zhi fu zi > > Chao bai shao > > Shan zhu yu > > http://www.rootdown.us/Formulas/Nuan-Gan-Jian > > > , " postimo " <postimo@> wrote: > > > > Hi Zev and thanks. > > > > Specifically concerning Nuan Gan Jian, is there anything I should > > keep in mind with certain herbal combinations? > > It's a very large formula with a significant number of additional > > ingredients, which makes the total number of possible combinations > > confusing. I dont want to loose the intended essence by modifying it > > inappropriately. > > > > For starters, with Dang Gui as the Chief herb, I'm not sure if it > > requires a large or small dosage. This is the storehouse of Blood > > after all and any Liver vacuity will naturally affect Blood.... > > > > > > Moving on from there, Im not sure why Xiao Hui Xiang is part of the > > primary formula when much more potent medicinals are listed as > > ancillary ingredients. I know its functions, but many of the other > > herbs also accomplish the same thing. > > There's also the choice of Fang Feng vs Chai Hu. And again, with all > > the Yang tonics and warm interior herbs, why is Wu yao a primary > > ingredient? > > > > There's a lot of expanding & disseminating medicinals and potent Yang > > ingredients, all of which could easily damage an already weakened > > Liver. > > > > For anyone else who cares to comment, these are the listed > > ingredients. You can see how it can easily go in any number of > > directions. > > > > For Liver Yang Fall > > > > Nuan Gan Jian / Liver-Warming Brew: > > Dang gui > > Gou qi zi > > Xiao hui xiang > > Rou gui > > Wu yao > > Chen xiang > > Fu ling > > Plus: > > Huang qi > > Dang shen > > Chai hu > > Sheng ma > > Fang feng > > Rou cong rong > > Tu si zi > > Zhi fu zi > > Chao bai shao > > Shan zhu yu > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Pos. > > > > > > , " " > > <zrosenbe@> wrote: > > > > > > Postimo, > > > " Pathomechanisms of the Liver " lists four patterns of liver > > yang > > > vacuity: > > > > > > 1) Impaired warming of the liver > > > Prescription: bu gan yang fang/liver yang supplementing formula > > > ( rou gui, chuan jiao, rou cong rong) It is often augmented with > > > huang qi, dang shen, bai zhu, yin yang huo, lu jiao, dang gui and > > fu zi. > > > > > > 2) Liver yang fall > > > Prescription: nuan gan jian/liver warming brew (see text for > > > ingredients, long formula) > > > > > > 3) Liver/stomach yang vacuity > > > Prescription: wu zhu yu tang/evodia decoction (wu zhu yu, ren > > shen, > > > sheng jiang, da zao) from Shang Han Lun > > > > > > 4) Liver/kidney yang vacuity > > > Prescription: bu gan yang fang/liver yang supplementing formula > > (rou > > > gui, chuan jiao, rou cong rong, huang qi, dang shen, tuo yang, yin > > > yang huo, lu jiao, ba ji tian, fu zi). > > > > > > I hope this is of help. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 16, 2007, at 8:09 AM, postimo wrote: > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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