referral in Shanghai and question about TCM in China

[Guest guest]

Hello all,

 

I recently met an American living in Shanghai who asked me if I knew of

any " good, intuitive chinese herbalist " in Shanghai. As I don't know a

soul in Shanghai (I'm in Beijing) I had to tell him I'd ask around. I

don't know him that well so I'm not sure what he means by " intuitive " .

If anyone has any good referrals for Shanghai though please let me know.

I don't know what specialty, if any, he's looking for.

 

His question caused me to wonder about what the state of the more

ethereal aspects of Chinese medicine over here in mainland China. I've

been in Beijing 6 months and have been doing some part time observation

in hospitals and clinics so my experience is quite limited. But so far

it seems very scientific over here. Much much more so than my education

was. According to my boss, most of the people in the field over here

think very little of qi gong in any form except as exercise. And

according to many Chinese I've spoken to the doctors, especially in the

hospitals, rely heavily on Western medicine, both to satisfy patients

and because the hospital pressures them so that the hospital can run a

profit.

 

As far as my own experience goes, I've met some very skilled and kind

doctors so far, but I haven't had any glimpses into the deeper aspects

of their personalities. In the west our beliefs and attitudes towards

the world come out more in our clothes, hair styles, etc., but I know

Asian cultures aren't like that. For all I know, the straight looking

guy at the clinic in polyester slacks and a nerdy button down could

practice 3 hours of internal alchemy every morning.

 

Anyone who has spent more time in China (or is Chinese) care to share

their thoughts or experiences? I don't really want to start a debate

about what is good and bad about TCM in the west and China, I'm just

looking for a firmer grasp of what's going on.

 

Thanks,

 

Carl Stimson

 

ps Don't forget the referral for Shanghai!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

It seems like you have found the meaning in the saying, " Study

in China

for 3 weeks or for 3 years " . Not having done the 3 years, I know that a short

while after

one gets a basic idea of what is happening on the surface, to dig underneath is

frustrating.

I am confident that China and Beijing is so big that whatever you need is there.

It just

doesn't announce itself as you've found. Also in the equation is that " standing

out " is

considered bad manners and during the past decades (especially with Qi Gong

etc...) can

be downright dangerous. From what I've seen the closer the practitioner is to

traditional

medical practices the more willing, eventually, to cop to believing in qi

practices. It's just

part of the medicine. Calling it Qi Gong however may put people off.

A dozen years ago most of the serious people in the park turned out to be

engineers or

mathematicians. Which is great. I went to a special Qi Gong department in

Shanghai but it

was very small and seemed to be pretty marginalized as far as I could see. I

also met an

old doctor swarming with patients doing such good work (acupuncture and herbs)

and with

such energy and clarity and humor that he couldn't help but be working the qi on

everyone.

my 2 cents,

Doug

 

, Carl Stimson <carlstimson wrote:

>

> Hello all,

>

> I recently met an American living in Shanghai who asked me if I knew of

> any " good, intuitive chinese herbalist " in Shanghai. As I don't know a

> soul in Shanghai (I'm in Beijing) I had to tell him I'd ask around. I

> don't know him that well so I'm not sure what he means by " intuitive " .

> If anyone has any good referrals for Shanghai though please let me know.

> I don't know what specialty, if any, he's looking for.

>

> His question caused me to wonder about what the state of the more

> ethereal aspects of Chinese medicine over here in mainland China. I've

> been in Beijing 6 months and have been doing some part time observation

> in hospitals and clinics so my experience is quite limited. But so far

> it seems very scientific over here. Much much more so than my education

> was. According to my boss, most of the people in the field over here

> think very little of qi gong in any form except as exercise. And

> according to many Chinese I've spoken to the doctors, especially in the

> hospitals, rely heavily on Western medicine, both to satisfy patients

> and because the hospital pressures them so that the hospital can run a

> profit.

>

> As far as my own experience goes, I've met some very skilled and kind

> doctors so far, but I haven't had any glimpses into the deeper aspects

> of their personalities. In the west our beliefs and attitudes towards

> the world come out more in our clothes, hair styles, etc., but I know

> Asian cultures aren't like that. For all I know, the straight looking

> guy at the clinic in polyester slacks and a nerdy button down could

> practice 3 hours of internal alchemy every morning.

>

> Anyone who has spent more time in China (or is Chinese) care to share

> their thoughts or experiences? I don't really want to start a debate

> about what is good and bad about TCM in the west and China, I'm just

> looking for a firmer grasp of what's going on.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Carl Stimson

>

> ps Don't forget the referral for Shanghai!

>

Santamonicaacupuncture.com

[Guest guest]

Sorry, no help on the Shanghai question, just responding about the

second part!

 

My experience with the " TCM " hospital affiliated with my school (in

Changsha, Hunan) is very similar to what the two of you described-

Western meds are used first unless the patient demands only herbs (a

few old folks) and Western diagnostic techniques are used a lot- to be

safe (fear of being sued) and to make money for the hospital.

 

This is true for the inpatient dept, but apparently isn't the case in

the outpatient dept where Chinese med is used a lot more. I haven't

been there yet, but this is what I've heard.

 

Random story- in TCM Internal med. class on monday our teacher, Dr.

Liu, told a story of when she was observing a local CM doctor who has

his own clinic- one patient came in with severe abdominal pain as her

chief complaint, and after taking her pulse etc the old doctor

prescribed Da Cheng Qi Tang (if I recall correctly) ... 7 doses! (one

per day). The young Dr. Liu was a bit horrified, thinking that they

hadn't done an ultrasound, X-ray, blood test etc ... what if the

patient died? Well, 7 days later the patient came back completely

recovered ...

 

Dr. Liu finished the story saying that even if there had been a big

problem the patient or her family wouldn't have come back to " find "

the old doctor, as he was a famous doctor in Changsha- but this wasn't

true for " doctors like us " (pointing at herself), so it is always

necessary to carry out examinations like X-ray, ultrasound, etc, in

order to eliminate the possibility of life-threatening disease like

cancer, appendicitis, ectopic pregnancy, etc, for which Western med.

is the standard treatment.

 

Overall the situation is a bit disheartening... not at all what I was

looking for when I came to China! I'll be here for several more years

so I hope to get to understand the situation better.

 

Regards,

 

Henry

[Guest guest]

Doug,

 

Thanks for the reply. Yeah I didn't think about how undesireable it

is in Asian cultures to stand out in certain ways from the crowd.

 

In my short time here I've detected an undercurrent of

dissatisfaction of Chinese with 'the system'. Again my experience is

limited, but I've been surprised at the frequency of complaints and

the underlying theme to them. One person I know who recently

graduated with a Phd on the Shang Han Lun has decided not to be a

doctor because it would entail a long residency where she would have

to concentrate on learning western medicine. Another friend who just

got her master's isn't going the hospital route because she wants

to " diagnose patients using only her senses like in the old

dynasties " . She feels that becoming a Phd, then professor who

practices a couple times a week in the clinic is the best way to

accomplish that.

 

I have also been visiting Beijing University of

(they took out 'Traditional' this year) and was very surprised at the

atmosphere. It felt like any other college campus with a bunch of

kids running around caught up in life, dating, and studying. I guess

I should have expected this but seeing it made things more real. It

made me wonder what the difference was between the general effect

produced by the TCM education systems in China and the west on the

practitioners that graduated from the respective systems. Obviously

China is superior in the resources available, facilities, and

experience of teachers, but an 18 year old studying something and a

32 year old studying something for the first time is a very different

thing. I'm curious how that impacts the field in general.

 

Cheers,

 

Carl

[Guest guest]

Hi Henry,

 

What school are you at in Changsha and how are you enjoying life

overall?

 

Can you say a little more about the program?

 

thanks,

 

Pos.

 

 

, " henry_buchtel "

<henry.buchtel wrote:

>

> Sorry, no help on the Shanghai question, just responding about the

> second part!

>

> My experience with the " TCM " hospital affiliated with my school (in

> Changsha, Hunan) is very similar to what the two of you described-

> Western meds are used first unless the patient demands only herbs (a

> few old folks) and Western diagnostic techniques are used a lot- to

be

> safe (fear of being sued) and to make money for the hospital.

>

> This is true for the inpatient dept, but apparently isn't the case

in

> the outpatient dept where Chinese med is used a lot more. I haven't

> been there yet, but this is what I've heard.

>

> Random story- in TCM Internal med. class on monday our teacher, Dr.

> Liu, told a story of when she was observing a local CM doctor who

has

> his own clinic- one patient came in with severe abdominal pain as

her

> chief complaint, and after taking her pulse etc the old doctor

> prescribed Da Cheng Qi Tang (if I recall correctly) ... 7 doses!

(one

> per day). The young Dr. Liu was a bit horrified, thinking that they

> hadn't done an ultrasound, X-ray, blood test etc ... what if the

> patient died? Well, 7 days later the patient came back completely

> recovered ...

>

> Dr. Liu finished the story saying that even if there had been a big

> problem the patient or her family wouldn't have come back to " find "

> the old doctor, as he was a famous doctor in Changsha- but this

wasn't

> true for " doctors like us " (pointing at herself), so it is always

> necessary to carry out examinations like X-ray, ultrasound, etc, in

> order to eliminate the possibility of life-threatening disease like

> cancer, appendicitis, ectopic pregnancy, etc, for which Western med.

> is the standard treatment.

>

> Overall the situation is a bit disheartening... not at all what I

was

> looking for when I came to China! I'll be here for several more

years

> so I hope to get to understand the situation better.

>

> Regards,

>

> Henry

>

[Guest guest]

Hello Pos. (?), I'm at the Hunan University of TCM and life is pretty

good overall

 

The school is generally good, I have some problems with how it is

designed to turn out folks who can work in modern Chinese " TCM "

hospitals, but there are good teachers who are happy to spend extra

time with an interested student.

 

If you send me an email I'll tell you more about it, ok?

 

Henry

 

, " postimo " <postimo wrote:

>

> Hi Henry,

>

> What school are you at in Changsha and how are you enjoying life

> overall?

>

> Can you say a little more about the program?

>

> thanks,

>

> Pos.

>

>