Tian Ma: dosage and long term usage

[Guest guest]

I have wondered for some time about the this issue: Tian Ma is, to quote Chen

and Chen, " relatively non-toxic, " yet the dosage recommended in detoction is

only 3-10 g. Can anyone relate anecdotal use of higher doses of Tian Ma, (of

course as part of a formula) for acute cases of liver wind as manifested by

tremors and spasms. What further astonishes me, is that the usual dose that I

have seen in formulas such as Tian ma gou teng Yin of 9 g can be used long term

for in chronic cases. Would not its effectiveness be compromised?

 

Yehuda

 

jasonwcom <jasonwcom wrote:

If the tian ma... works well, why not just double the dosage when

" tolorance " occurs?

Regards,

-JB

 

Chinese Medicine , jon schell

<jonk2012 wrote:

>

> Hello Lorraine,

>

> So far this is what we know about the patient if I am correct:

>

> " A current client has a strong Liver Yang rising pattern with

Liver wind stirring and a major sleep problem long term. He seems to

respond best to Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin however adaptation can occur and

the effect falls off I have tried substituting with Zhen Zhu Mu Wan

but this only had negligible effect on the sleep pattern. We have

tried many strategies over the years usually with a degree of success

before adaptation occurs.

>

> The Liver Yang rising symptoms dominate the picture red face,

sweating, anxiety, previous raised BP, insomnia etc. The last pulse

reading was SP, Heart, Liver and Kidney Xu with tongue slightly pale

with a greasy coating. "

>

> First I think figuring out the etiology of this problem is

important. If you are using Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin, I would assume that

there is an element of wind, heat and liver involvement. From the

pathology above, I do not see a wind element, except as a secondary

factor to the heat (raised BP). But you have a deficient pulse, and

apparently a deficient tongue. Then I take into account that this is

a long term pattern from " We have tried many strategies over the years… "

>

> My guess from the pattern that is presented above, is that this is

a internal heat problem, that is causing heat flaring upward, and at

the same time burning the qi, to make it appear to our objective signs

that this patient is deficient, when he is not.

>

> I would want to know how much spicy food the patient is consuming,

as well as what kind of constitution he has – thin, heavy, etc. I

would also want to know about any significant cold exposures, and what

kind of food that he craves. Alcohol consumption and greasy food

consumption are also factors here. Lastly and most importantly, what

is he doing with his Anger – is he a verbal person, is he passive

aggressive, does he " see red? "

>

> So I might suggest a change of tact, if the Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin

is not working, perhaps some of these formulas might:

>

> I ran a search on my Database, The Database

(Chinese Medicine) for Insomnia, and these are some results that I found

interesting and possible to your patients situation:

>

> These are not going to be traditional uses of these formulas, but

perhaps worth a look.

>

> Searched for Red Face

> Dao Chi San

> For: Irritability with a sensation of heat in the chest & heart,

insomnia, lots of dreams & nightmares, thirst with a desire to drink

cold beverages, a red face, possibly sores around mouth.

>

> Jiang Ya Pian (Mayway)

> For: High blood pressure with dizziness, uneasiness, stiff neck,

distention headache, red face.

>

> Searched for Anxiety & Insomnia

> An Shen Bu Xin Dan

> For: Insomnia due to neurasthenia, dream disturbed sleep,

nightmares, irritability, restlessness, anxiety, palpitations, panic

attacks, ptsd, hypertension, sleep walking, anemia, headache,

dizziness, poor memory, tinnitus.

>

> These were just a few of the results that seemed like they might

be pertinent to your patient out of the many results that were

returned in this search. If I had more information I could narrow it

down further.

>

> I hope this helps with your quest for the perfect formula for this

patient.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> L.Ac.

> The Database

> Chinese Medicine

>

>

>

> herbsandhelpers <herbsandhelpers wrote:

Thank you for all contributions so far received is there

anything else

> anyone can think of since my client is going on holiday next week.

>

> Thanks again,

>

> Lorraine.

 

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>

>