echinacae for auto-immune patients?

December 9, 2007

I realize that I am asking about a western herb here on the chinese

herb list, but Secara makes some fine products adding pertinent

western herbs to classic formulas. I have a patient who thinks she

could really use some Yu Ping Feng San (she has used it in the past)

but I am also considering Ba Zhen Tang, and she prefers pills over

powders or raw, so I " m looking at Secara (she also prefers a US based

pharm). She complains that when she has taken this formula in the

past, she tends to feel dry. She also has some autoimmue issues that

we are trying to identify and I always thought that echinacae was

contraindicated for those patients. I have recently heard otherwise -

that such claims are based on a misunderstanding of the effects of

echinacea. Secara adds reishi mushroom and echinacae to their Yu Ping

Feng San. Any thoughts on this for those of you who also dabble in

western/eastern combos?

My patient is 29 y.o. female, dusky tongue w/ raw edges and sublingual

stagnation, thin white coat, pale facial complexion, thin pulses, deep

at both rear positions, dry skin, hair, lips, severe tinnitus, no

night sweats, always on the verge of wind cold attacks, gas and

bloating, tends to constipation, but is finding relief with magnesium

compound (as prescribed by her nutritionist she was seeing before she

came to me). I read her as LIV blood deficiency with stag, qi defic,

including wei qi defic. Chief complaints: severe tension/occipital

headaches that turn into temporal migraines, extra sensitive hearing

that becomes painful " like ear nerves on fire " , and generalize body

pain, lately showing up as tmj pain. There's lots more to her

profile, but any views on the echinacae (which she has been taking for

awhile now), would be great. Oh, she also is using an IUD for past 6

months and now experiencing long periods with clots and severe

cramping - she is considering my suggestion to have it removed. LIV

blood symptoms have existed prior to the IUD, though.

Thanks to all of you who keep us deeply connected to this amazing

healing community.

many blessings,

Julia Carpenter, L.AC.

Berkeley, CA

December 9, 2007

Julia,

I've tried Secara's formulas, and their potency is excellent, in

fact, I found them to be very powerful indeed. However, in my

opinion, combining western and Chinese herbs in one formula is

experimental at this point, and should be limited to research use

(i.e. on willing subjects or colleagues) rather than daily clinical

practice, because we don't have the clinical record of how these newer

medicinals interact with the Chinese herbs that have been in use for

such long periods of time. Echinacea, for example, is a very powerful

and cold toxin relieving medicinal, similar to lian qiao in my

experience, and would be perhaps too dispersing when combined with

warm medicinals such as huang qi, bai zhu and fang feng.

On Dec 9, 2007, at 6:46 PM, juliacarp wrote:

> I realize that I am asking about a western herb here on the chinese

> herb list, but Secara makes some fine products adding pertinent

> western herbs to classic formulas. I have a patient who thinks she

> could really use some Yu Ping Feng San (she has used it in the past)

> but I am also considering Ba Zhen Tang, and she prefers pills over

> powders or raw, so I " m looking at Secara (she also prefers a US based

> pharm). She complains that when she has taken this formula in the

> past, she tends to feel dry. She also has some autoimmue issues that

> we are trying to identify and I always thought that echinacae was

> contraindicated for those patients. I have recently heard otherwise -

> that such claims are based on a misunderstanding of the effects of

> echinacea. Secara adds reishi mushroom and echinacae to their Yu Ping

> Feng San. Any thoughts on this for those of you who also dabble in

> western/eastern combos?

>

> My patient is 29 y.o. female, dusky tongue w/ raw edges and sublingual

> stagnation, thin white coat, pale facial complexion, thin pulses, deep

> at both rear positions, dry skin, hair, lips, severe tinnitus, no

> night sweats, always on the verge of wind cold attacks, gas and

> bloating, tends to constipation, but is finding relief with magnesium

> compound (as prescribed by her nutritionist she was seeing before she

> came to me). I read her as LIV blood deficiency with stag, qi defic,

> including wei qi defic. Chief complaints: severe tension/occipital

> headaches that turn into temporal migraines, extra sensitive hearing

> that becomes painful " like ear nerves on fire " , and generalize body

> pain, lately showing up as tmj pain. There's lots more to her

> profile, but any views on the echinacae (which she has been taking for

> awhile now), would be great. Oh, she also is using an IUD for past 6

> months and now experiencing long periods with clots and severe

> cramping - she is considering my suggestion to have it removed. LIV

> blood symptoms have existed prior to the IUD, though.

>

> Thanks to all of you who keep us deeply connected to this amazing

> healing community.

>

> many blessings,

> Julia Carpenter, L.AC.

> Berkeley, CA

>

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

December 10, 2007

Julia, Z'ev, and all,

While I generally agree with you, Z'ev, about the use of echinacea I

do recommend using echinacea in with yupingfengsan in my forthcoming

book on the subject of using western herbs in Chinese medicine. I have

found this to be an excellent combination, however I wouldn't

necessarily recommend using it ad infinitum either.

As to your comments about adding Western herbs into Chinese formulas

being entirely experimental, I have to take issue with this. An

informed practitioner can use any medicinals in any combination. This

is one of the reasons I wrote the book (Western Herbs According to

: A Practitioners Guide due out in Feb. and available

now for advance ordering from Amazon, although I recommend you

purchase it from the publisher Healing Arts Press, which an imprint of

Inner Traditions Bear & Co. http://tiny.cc/Svpyi is the link directly

to the book's place on their site.)

When we give herbs we are experimenting, whether you want to agree

with this or not is entirely up to you, but as far as I can tell there

are no absolutes in this world. Furthermore, and I think you will

agree with me Z'ev, especially since you have seen the book and wrote

a forward for it, this is an exceptionally important part of what we

can do as Western practitioners of Chinese medicine. The Chinese

certainly don't have any problem integrating Western herbs (or herbs

from outside China) into the practice of Chinese medicine, as

evidenced by their use of corn silk, American ginseng, myrrh, and

indeed echinacea (although I don't know how widely it is used I did

see it at the Beijing medicinal botanical garden last time I was

here). In fact, there are many other Western medicinals discussed in a

number of Chinese materia medicas, quite a few actually, just because

they are either not in regular use in " standard " Chinese medicine, or

we haven't heard of it in the US, doesn't mean it is not happening. I

was in a bookstore the other day here in Beijing and looked through a

book on the medicinal plants of Yunnan and saw more than just a couple

plants that I know to be native to places other than Yunnan province

in China.

Ok, I've ranted on enough for now. For those interested, I hope you

check out my book. This has been my life's work to this point and it

is likely to continue to be so. I feel very passionate about it, as I

think is evidenced by my post, and believe it to be an extremely

important contribution to the field (the concept, not my book) one

that we as Western practitioners can have a powerful impact on the way

Chinese medicine is practiced from this point on.

In good health,

,

<zrosenbe wrote:

>

> Julia,

> I've tried Secara's formulas, and their potency is excellent, in

> fact, I found them to be very powerful indeed. However, in my

> opinion, combining western and Chinese herbs in one formula is

> experimental at this point, and should be limited to research use

> (i.e. on willing subjects or colleagues) rather than daily clinical

> practice, because we don't have the clinical record of how these newer

> medicinals interact with the Chinese herbs that have been in use for

> such long periods of time. Echinacea, for example, is a very powerful

> and cold toxin relieving medicinal, similar to lian qiao in my

> experience, and would be perhaps too dispersing when combined with

> warm medicinals such as huang qi, bai zhu and fang feng.

>

> On Dec 9, 2007, at 6:46 PM, juliacarp wrote:

>

> > I realize that I am asking about a western herb here on the chinese

> > herb list, but Secara makes some fine products adding pertinent

> > western herbs to classic formulas. I have a patient who thinks she

> > could really use some Yu Ping Feng San (she has used it in the past)

> > but I am also considering Ba Zhen Tang, and she prefers pills over

> > powders or raw, so I " m looking at Secara (she also prefers a US based

> > pharm). She complains that when she has taken this formula in the

> > past, she tends to feel dry. She also has some autoimmue issues that

> > we are trying to identify and I always thought that echinacae was

> > contraindicated for those patients. I have recently heard otherwise -

> > that such claims are based on a misunderstanding of the effects of

> > echinacea. Secara adds reishi mushroom and echinacae to their Yu Ping

> > Feng San. Any thoughts on this for those of you who also dabble in

> > western/eastern combos?

> >

> > My patient is 29 y.o. female, dusky tongue w/ raw edges and sublingual

> > stagnation, thin white coat, pale facial complexion, thin pulses, deep

> > at both rear positions, dry skin, hair, lips, severe tinnitus, no

> > night sweats, always on the verge of wind cold attacks, gas and

> > bloating, tends to constipation, but is finding relief with magnesium

> > compound (as prescribed by her nutritionist she was seeing before she

> > came to me). I read her as LIV blood deficiency with stag, qi defic,

> > including wei qi defic. Chief complaints: severe tension/occipital

> > headaches that turn into temporal migraines, extra sensitive hearing

> > that becomes painful " like ear nerves on fire " , and generalize body

> > pain, lately showing up as tmj pain. There's lots more to her

> > profile, but any views on the echinacae (which she has been taking for

> > awhile now), would be great. Oh, she also is using an IUD for past 6

> > months and now experiencing long periods with clots and severe

> > cramping - she is considering my suggestion to have it removed. LIV

> > blood symptoms have existed prior to the IUD, though.

> >

> > Thanks to all of you who keep us deeply connected to this amazing

> > healing community.

> >

> > many blessings,

> > Julia Carpenter, L.AC.

> > Berkeley, CA

> >

>

> Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> San Diego, Ca. 92122

December 10, 2007

Dear Thomas,

There are many important native herbs in the West that we need to

learn about, reframe in a Chinese context, and use clinically. I do

use some Western herbs, but tend to give them individually rather than

as part of a Chinese herb prescription. I've often combined echinacea

(given separately) with yin qiao san or sang ju yin, it seems a better

fit to me than yu ping feng san. And, obviously, since I wrote a

forward to your book, I think it is an important movement for the

future. However, I still think that commercial formulas at this stage

are in the experimental category, since they haven't been used in any

traditional basis. I think the first step is to classify the

individual Western herb medicinals according to Chinese criteria, and

then to begin to figure out dui yao/combinations of medicinals, and

pao zhi/preparation of medicinals by cooking, soaking, frying in

honey, etc. It's going to take a long time.

Certainly the Chinese have absorbed many herbal medicines from

abroad, including the Americas. However, you'll notice in the materia

medicas that recent additions, some from 200 years ago, still are not

complete in their classification (such as in the Zhong yao da ci dian)

by channel, temperature, flavor and the like. It does take some time.

On Dec 10, 2007, at 5:35 PM, wrote:

> Julia, Z'ev, and all,

>

> While I generally agree with you, Z'ev, about the use of echinacea I

> do recommend using echinacea in with yupingfengsan in my forthcoming

> book on the subject of using western herbs in Chinese medicine. I have

> found this to be an excellent combination, however I wouldn't

> necessarily recommend using it ad infinitum either.

>

> As to your comments about adding Western herbs into Chinese formulas

> being entirely experimental, I have to take issue with this. An

> informed practitioner can use any medicinals in any combination. This

> is one of the reasons I wrote the book (Western Herbs According to

> : A Practitioners Guide due out in Feb. and available

> now for advance ordering from Amazon, although I recommend you

> purchase it from the publisher Healing Arts Press, which an imprint of

> Inner Traditions Bear & Co. http://tiny.cc/Svpyi is the link directly

> to the book's place on their site.)

>

> When we give herbs we are experimenting, whether you want to agree

> with this or not is entirely up to you, but as far as I can tell there

> are no absolutes in this world. Furthermore, and I think you will

> agree with me Z'ev, especially since you have seen the book and wrote

> a forward for it, this is an exceptionally important part of what we

> can do as Western practitioners of Chinese medicine. The Chinese

> certainly don't have any problem integrating Western herbs (or herbs

> from outside China) into the practice of Chinese medicine, as

> evidenced by their use of corn silk, American ginseng, myrrh, and

> indeed echinacea (although I don't know how widely it is used I did

> see it at the Beijing medicinal botanical garden last time I was

> here). In fact, there are many other Western medicinals discussed in a

> number of Chinese materia medicas, quite a few actually, just because

> they are either not in regular use in " standard " Chinese medicine, or

> we haven't heard of it in the US, doesn't mean it is not happening. I

> was in a bookstore the other day here in Beijing and looked through a

> book on the medicinal plants of Yunnan and saw more than just a couple

> plants that I know to be native to places other than Yunnan province

> in China.

>

> Ok, I've ranted on enough for now. For those interested, I hope you

> check out my book. This has been my life's work to this point and it

> is likely to continue to be so. I feel very passionate about it, as I

> think is evidenced by my post, and believe it to be an extremely

> important contribution to the field (the concept, not my book) one

> that we as Western practitioners can have a powerful impact on the way

> Chinese medicine is practiced from this point on.

>

> In good health,

>

> ,

> <zrosenbe wrote:

> >

> > Julia,

> > I've tried Secara's formulas, and their potency is excellent, in

> > fact, I found them to be very powerful indeed. However, in my

> > opinion, combining western and Chinese herbs in one formula is

> > experimental at this point, and should be limited to research use

> > (i.e. on willing subjects or colleagues) rather than daily clinical

> > practice, because we don't have the clinical record of how these

> newer

> > medicinals interact with the Chinese herbs that have been in use for

> > such long periods of time. Echinacea, for example, is a very

> powerful

> > and cold toxin relieving medicinal, similar to lian qiao in my

> > experience, and would be perhaps too dispersing when combined with

> > warm medicinals such as huang qi, bai zhu and fang feng.

> >

> > On Dec 9, 2007, at 6:46 PM, juliacarp wrote:

> >

> > > I realize that I am asking about a western herb here on the

> chinese

> > > herb list, but Secara makes some fine products adding pertinent

> > > western herbs to classic formulas. I have a patient who thinks she

> > > could really use some Yu Ping Feng San (she has used it in the

> past)

> > > but I am also considering Ba Zhen Tang, and she prefers pills over

> > > powders or raw, so I " m looking at Secara (she also prefers a US

> based

> > > pharm). She complains that when she has taken this formula in the

> > > past, she tends to feel dry. She also has some autoimmue issues

> that

> > > we are trying to identify and I always thought that echinacae was

> > > contraindicated for those patients. I have recently heard

> otherwise -

> > > that such claims are based on a misunderstanding of the effects of

> > > echinacea. Secara adds reishi mushroom and echinacae to their Yu

> Ping

> > > Feng San. Any thoughts on this for those of you who also dabble in

> > > western/eastern combos?

> > >

> > > My patient is 29 y.o. female, dusky tongue w/ raw edges and

> sublingual

> > > stagnation, thin white coat, pale facial complexion, thin

> pulses, deep

> > > at both rear positions, dry skin, hair, lips, severe tinnitus, no

> > > night sweats, always on the verge of wind cold attacks, gas and

> > > bloating, tends to constipation, but is finding relief with

> magnesium

> > > compound (as prescribed by her nutritionist she was seeing

> before she

> > > came to me). I read her as LIV blood deficiency with stag, qi

> defic,

> > > including wei qi defic. Chief complaints: severe tension/occipital

> > > headaches that turn into temporal migraines, extra sensitive

> hearing

> > > that becomes painful " like ear nerves on fire " , and generalize

> body

> > > pain, lately showing up as tmj pain. There's lots more to her

> > > profile, but any views on the echinacae (which she has been

> taking for

> > > awhile now), would be great. Oh, she also is using an IUD for

> past 6

> > > months and now experiencing long periods with clots and severe

> > > cramping - she is considering my suggestion to have it removed.

> LIV

> > > blood symptoms have existed prior to the IUD, though.

> > >

> > > Thanks to all of you who keep us deeply connected to this amazing

> > > healing community.

> > >

> > > many blessings,

> > > Julia Carpenter, L.AC.

> > > Berkeley, CA

> > >

> >

> > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> > San Diego, Ca. 92122

> >

December 10, 2007

Hi All,

I would like point another side to the energetics of echinacea that are being

proposed.

Zev, you suggested that " Echinacea, for example, is a very powerful

> and cold toxin relieving medicinal, similar to lian qiao in my

> experience, and would be perhaps too dispersing when combined with

> warm medicinals such as huang qi, bai zhu and fang feng. "

I am wondering if this is actually the case, as many western studies have come

out now

showing that echinacea can excaberate autoimmune flare ups like Lupus. The

mechanism

behind many autoimmune disease flare ups, as I understand it, is that the immune

system

is over active. This is why many herbs that work well in autoimmune disorders

are from

the clear heat, resolve toxin category. I am thinking that if echinacea can

induce or worsen

an autoimmune flare up, that it must have some warming, not cooling, properties.

I don't

think I am convinced that it is similar to something like Lian Qiao at all.

I have personally used echinacea in practice for over 15 years and from my

western herbal

training days, I was taught to avoid its use when a condition is already full

blown, ie

coughing with yellow phlegm, as this will worsen the condition. It is better as

a general

immune tonic, not moderator. From my experience, this seems to be correct.

I think that this herb fits into Yu ping feng san perfectly because I actually

think it is more

of a warming, Qi supplementing medicinal.

Just my thoughts,

Trevor

, <zrosenbe wrote:

>

> Dear Thomas,

> There are many important native herbs in the West that we need to

> learn about, reframe in a Chinese context, and use clinically. I do

> use some Western herbs, but tend to give them individually rather than

> as part of a Chinese herb prescription. I've often combined echinacea

> (given separately) with yin qiao san or sang ju yin, it seems a better

> fit to me than yu ping feng san. And, obviously, since I wrote a

> forward to your book, I think it is an important movement for the

> future. However, I still think that commercial formulas at this stage

> are in the experimental category, since they haven't been used in any

> traditional basis. I think the first step is to classify the

> individual Western herb medicinals according to Chinese criteria, and

> then to begin to figure out dui yao/combinations of medicinals, and

> pao zhi/preparation of medicinals by cooking, soaking, frying in

> honey, etc. It's going to take a long time.

>

> Certainly the Chinese have absorbed many herbal medicines from

> abroad, including the Americas. However, you'll notice in the materia

> medicas that recent additions, some from 200 years ago, still are not

> complete in their classification (such as in the Zhong yao da ci dian)

> by channel, temperature, flavor and the like. It does take some time.

>

> On Dec 10, 2007, at 5:35 PM, wrote:

>

December 11, 2007

Trevor,

While I agree that it can sometime excaserbate auto-immue diseases, I have

tended to avoid using it in these situations and therefore, have not seen it

clinically. I also agree with you that it can be used in much smaller doses as a

" tonic " as with the formula Yu ping feng san. However, I must disagree with you

on your classification of only using it for the initial stages of warm diseases.

This is not the traditional use of the plant, at least not the only nor the

primary way it has been used. This herb is exceptional in the treatment of " full

blown " heat diseases and I use it this way as a matter of course. In other words

it is one of the first herbs that comes to mind in these situations.

I agree with Z'ev that it is similar to Lianqiao, though I think it is far

superior. In the case of " yellow phlegm " it is an exception choice as it also

treats the phlegm with its acrid and bitter nature. I think it is this acrid

nature, which has a dispersing action, thus can cause some problems in

auto-immune patients. I feel very confident saying that this herb is at the very

least cooling, certainly not warm in any way.

Z'ev, if you are giving an herb " separately " how do you believe this changes

the way the herb, or herbs are working as compared to how they might work if

they are given as a " commercial formula? " I am not trying to badger you, I

really want to understand how you see this as being different. Do you have the

patient take them at different times? Is there something that you believe is

different when they are combined into one bottle?

I look forward to continuing this discussion.

Thomas

Beijing, China

www.sourcepointherbs.org

December 11, 2007

The use of tincture formulas is also experimental, let be consistent if we make

judgments

alon

December 11, 2007

Alon,

What formulas do you consider to be tinctures? Kan extracts, if

that is what you are referring to, are not tinctures.

Z'ev Roseberg

On Dec 11, 2007, at 10:07 AM, Alon Marcus wrote:

> The use of tincture formulas is also experimental, let be consistent

> if we make judgments

> alon

>

December 11, 2007

Trevor,

We may be mixing apples and oranges here. In order to discuss the

autoimmune data you offer, we need to someone frame how Chinese

medicine sees autoimmune diseases, a huge topic. One general

classification I think we can apply is from the teachings of Li

Dongyuan, who separates the treatment of wai gan/external contractions

from nei shang/internal damage disorders. Internal damage disorders

are usually caused by emotional, constitutional, or dietary factors,

and often result from damage to qi transformation of the spleen and

stomach. This damage effects the spleen's ability to raise the clear

yang, and along with it, the production of wei and ying qi, defense

and construction. Using dispersing medicinals that may weaken the

spleen may be counterproductive in autoimmune conditions. While

external contractions may play a role in autoimmune diseases, the long

term process of such diseases as lupus clearly go way beyond typical

external contractions.

As far as echinacea goes, it does have from a pharmacological

point of view some polysaccharides, and therefore may have some mild

supplementing effects. However, it is very acrid, and has strong heat

clearing properties, so I cannot agree that it is a warming qi

supplementing medicinal. How can it be so supplementing if it is so

dispersing?

On Dec 10, 2007, at 10:18 PM, Trevor Erikson wrote:

> Hi All,

> I would like point another side to the energetics of echinacea that

> are being proposed.

> Zev, you suggested that " Echinacea, for example, is a very powerful

> > and cold toxin relieving medicinal, similar to lian qiao in my

> > experience, and would be perhaps too dispersing when combined with

> > warm medicinals such as huang qi, bai zhu and fang feng. "

>

> I am wondering if this is actually the case, as many western studies

> have come out now

> showing that echinacea can excaberate autoimmune flare ups like

> Lupus. The mechanism

> behind many autoimmune disease flare ups, as I understand it, is

> that the immune system

> is over active. This is why many herbs that work well in autoimmune

> disorders are from

> the clear heat, resolve toxin category. I am thinking that if

> echinacea can induce or worsen

> an autoimmune flare up, that it must have some warming, not cooling,

> properties. I don't

> think I am convinced that it is similar to something like Lian Qiao

> at all.

>

> I have personally used echinacea in practice for over 15 years and

> from my western herbal

> training days, I was taught to avoid its use when a condition is

> already full blown, ie

> coughing with yellow phlegm, as this will worsen the condition. It

> is better as a general

> immune tonic, not moderator. From my experience, this seems to be

> correct.

>

> I think that this herb fits into Yu ping feng san perfectly because

> I actually think it is more

> of a warming, Qi supplementing medicinal.

>

> Just my thoughts,

> Trevor

>

> ,

> <zrosenbe wrote:

> >

> > Dear Thomas,

> > There are many important native herbs in the West that we need to

> > learn about, reframe in a Chinese context, and use clinically. I do

> > use some Western herbs, but tend to give them individually rather

> than

> > as part of a Chinese herb prescription. I've often combined

> echinacea

> > (given separately) with yin qiao san or sang ju yin, it seems a

> better

> > fit to me than yu ping feng san. And, obviously, since I wrote a

> > forward to your book, I think it is an important movement for the

> > future. However, I still think that commercial formulas at this

> stage

> > are in the experimental category, since they haven't been used in

> any

> > traditional basis. I think the first step is to classify the

> > individual Western herb medicinals according to Chinese criteria,

> and

> > then to begin to figure out dui yao/combinations of medicinals, and

> > pao zhi/preparation of medicinals by cooking, soaking, frying in

> > honey, etc. It's going to take a long time.

> >

> > Certainly the Chinese have absorbed many herbal medicines from

> > abroad, including the Americas. However, you'll notice in the

> materia

> > medicas that recent additions, some from 200 years ago, still are

> not

> > complete in their classification (such as in the Zhong yao da ci

> dian)

> > by channel, temperature, flavor and the like. It does take some

> time.

> >

> > On Dec 10, 2007, at 5:35 PM, wrote:

> >

>

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

December 11, 2007

Thomas,

I agree that echinacea is 'superior' to lian qiao, in terms of its

versatility, but it will depend on how it is used. Context is

everything.

I wholeheartedly support the development and use of 'western'

medicinals, especially similar species to Chinese medicinals growing

here in the Americas, but this is a very long term project. I don't

feel comfortable mixing western herbs, especially without dui yao or

pao zhi considerations, so I will give them separately as extracts if

I feel they are warranted. Chinese herbal medicine is largely a

polypharmacy tradition, while in the West, we have not inherited a

strong polypharmacy tradition in terms of traditional formulas. I

don't know anyone using or teaching the use of Galenics or Greco-

Arabic formulations, although I would be very interested. Just as

with drug-herb interactions, we need to be aware of potential herb-

herb interactions if they are outside of what we have learned from the

Chinese tradition. By the same token, I never use products that

combine vitamins, minerals and herbs together.

On Dec 11, 2007, at 6:53 AM, wrote:

> Trevor,

>

> While I agree that it can sometime excaserbate auto-immue diseases,

> I have tended to avoid using it in these situations and therefore,

> have not seen it clinically. I also agree with you that it can be

> used in much smaller doses as a " tonic " as with the formula Yu ping

> feng san. However, I must disagree with you on your classification

> of only using it for the initial stages of warm diseases. This is

> not the traditional use of the plant, at least not the only nor the

> primary way it has been used. This herb is exceptional in the

> treatment of " full blown " heat diseases and I use it this way as a

> matter of course. In other words it is one of the first herbs that

> comes to mind in these situations.

>

> I agree with Z'ev that it is similar to Lianqiao, though I think it

> is far superior. In the case of " yellow phlegm " it is an exception

> choice as it also treats the phlegm with its acrid and bitter

> nature. I think it is this acrid nature, which has a dispersing

> action, thus can cause some problems in auto-immune patients. I feel

> very confident saying that this herb is at the very least cooling,

> certainly not warm in any way.

>

> Z'ev, if you are giving an herb " separately " how do you believe this

> changes the way the herb, or herbs are working as compared to how

> they might work if they are given as a " commercial formula? " I am

> not trying to badger you, I really want to understand how you see

> this as being different. Do you have the patient take them at

> different times? Is there something that you believe is different

> when they are combined into one bottle?

>

> I look forward to continuing this discussion.

>

> Thomas

>

> Beijing, China

>

> www.sourcepointherbs.org

>

December 12, 2007

Zev

Kan fluids are alcohol h2o extracts, is that correct? if yes they are

experimental in terms of historical use. One cannot use historical documents to

support their actions. That is not to say they don't work, they may work better

i have no idea

December 12, 2007

True,

And there are some practitioners who don't use them for that

reason. But I think a slightly different issue than new herb

combinations. . . .

Z'ev

On Dec 12, 2007, at 9:37 AM, Alon Marcus wrote:

> Zev

> Kan fluids are alcohol h2o extracts, is that correct? if yes they

> are experimental in terms of historical use. One cannot use

> historical documents to support their actions. That is not to say

> they don't work, they may work better i have no idea

>

December 12, 2007

Z'ev and Thomas and all,

I geuss I am trying to figure how western herbs become classified into the

chinese

energetic system. I brought up my point from the devil's advocate standpoint.

Since I

started practicing Chinese herbal medicine I have barely used western herbals at

all, even

though I mfirst studied them with Terry Willard back in 1990. Partly because I

am confused

by the energetics, even though I know that many of you have done brilliant work

in trying

to bridge the gap.

I am wondering how do you get to the conclusions that exist about a western

herb. I

brought up echinacea and autoimmune disease, which is the name of this thread,

beacuse

it seems so contriversal. From my knowledge and experience autoimmune disease

like

lupus, or any other one that affects the connective tissue like RA, when in a

flare up state

is hot, red, and painful. This to me looks like a kind of damp heat Bi syndrome.

I was

taught that to truly resolve this disease we must put out the fire right away,

ie stop the

inflamation before it does serious damage. I was taught to use a herb like Lei

Gong Teng

in the initial place and then gradually move into the weaker herbs from the same

class.

Now Lei Gong Teng is considered cool, bitter, and acrid. Which is the very same

as how

you are classifying echinacea. If these two herbs are similar in energetics then

why would

one be known to worsen a condition that the other one makes better?? This is of

course

based on the western research that Dr Petri of the John Hopkin's arthritis

hospital states

and that which NIAMS quote.

Now if it is true that echinacea does worsen or provoke an autoimmune flare up

and the

western research is true, then to me echinacea would seem more warming in

nature. Why

else would it agravate a condition that other herbs of a so called similar

nature improve??

I have certainly not heard of Lian Qiao worsening wind hot damp joint pain, and

you are

saying these two herbs are similar?

Now garlic is always tooted as the herb of choice amongst many western

herbalists for

colds and coughs, even when there is yellow thick phlegm, obviously because of

its anti-

viral properties. So does this mean that we should call garlic cooling in nature

as well??

Echinicea is definetly an immune stimulant, but an anti inflammatory or clearer

of wind

damp heat? Especially if makes damp hot conditions worse?

Anyways, I am very interested in the treatment of autoimmune disease and do

spend a lot

of time in clinic and in office researching. I have never used echinacea for

autoimmune

conditions, but I do feel leary based on the research that is out there. If

someone can put

the western claims to rest for me and share their experience of using echinacea,

with good

results, for rheumatic hot conditions, I would love to hear about it.

Perhaps someone could educate me more on this topic of classifying western herbs

into

chinese energetics. What criteria do you decide this upon?

I want to be clear that I am sincere in my quest and would love to use the

western herbs in

my Chinese medical RX's more if I had more faith in their energetic claims.

Trevor

, <zrosenbe wrote:

>

> Trevor,

> We may be mixing apples and oranges here. In order to discuss the

> autoimmune data you offer, we need to someone frame how Chinese

> medicine sees autoimmune diseases, a huge topic. One general

> classification I think we can apply is from the teachings of Li

> Dongyuan, who separates the treatment of wai gan/external contractions

> from nei shang/internal damage disorders. Internal damage disorders

> are usually caused by emotional, constitutional, or dietary factors,

> and often result from damage to qi transformation of the spleen and

> stomach. This damage effects the spleen's ability to raise the clear

> yang, and along with it, the production of wei and ying qi, defense

> and construction. Using dispersing medicinals that may weaken the

> spleen may be counterproductive in autoimmune conditions. While

> external contractions may play a role in autoimmune diseases, the long

> term process of such diseases as lupus clearly go way beyond typical

> external contractions.

>

> As far as echinacea goes, it does have from a pharmacological

> point of view some polysaccharides, and therefore may have some mild

> supplementing effects. However, it is very acrid, and has strong heat

> clearing properties, so I cannot agree that it is a warming qi

> supplementing medicinal. How can it be so supplementing if it is so

> dispersing?

>

> On Dec 10, 2007, at 10:18 PM, Trevor Erikson wrote:

>

> > Hi All,

> > I would like point another side to the energetics of echinacea that

> > are being proposed.

> > Zev, you suggested that " Echinacea, for example, is a very powerful

> > > and cold toxin relieving medicinal, similar to lian qiao in my

> > > experience, and would be perhaps too dispersing when combined with

> > > warm medicinals such as huang qi, bai zhu and fang feng. "

> >

> > I am wondering if this is actually the case, as many western studies

> > have come out now

> > showing that echinacea can excaberate autoimmune flare ups like

> > Lupus. The mechanism

> > behind many autoimmune disease flare ups, as I understand it, is

> > that the immune system

> > is over active. This is why many herbs that work well in autoimmune

> > disorders are from

> > the clear heat, resolve toxin category. I am thinking that if

> > echinacea can induce or worsen

> > an autoimmune flare up, that it must have some warming, not cooling,

> > properties. I don't

> > think I am convinced that it is similar to something like Lian Qiao

> > at all.

> >

> > I have personally used echinacea in practice for over 15 years and

> > from my western herbal

> > training days, I was taught to avoid its use when a condition is

> > already full blown, ie

> > coughing with yellow phlegm, as this will worsen the condition. It

> > is better as a general

> > immune tonic, not moderator. From my experience, this seems to be

> > correct.

> >

> > I think that this herb fits into Yu ping feng san perfectly because

> > I actually think it is more

> > of a warming, Qi supplementing medicinal.

> >

> > Just my thoughts,

> > Trevor

> >

> > ,

> > <zrosenbe@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Thomas,

> > > There are many important native herbs in the West that we need to

> > > learn about, reframe in a Chinese context, and use clinically. I do

> > > use some Western herbs, but tend to give them individually rather

> > than

> > > as part of a Chinese herb prescription. I've often combined

> > echinacea

> > > (given separately) with yin qiao san or sang ju yin, it seems a

> > better

> > > fit to me than yu ping feng san. And, obviously, since I wrote a

> > > forward to your book, I think it is an important movement for the

> > > future. However, I still think that commercial formulas at this

> > stage

> > > are in the experimental category, since they haven't been used in

> > any

> > > traditional basis. I think the first step is to classify the

> > > individual Western herb medicinals according to Chinese criteria,

> > and

> > > then to begin to figure out dui yao/combinations of medicinals, and

> > > pao zhi/preparation of medicinals by cooking, soaking, frying in

> > > honey, etc. It's going to take a long time.

> > >

> > > Certainly the Chinese have absorbed many herbal medicines from

> > > abroad, including the Americas. However, you'll notice in the

> > materia

> > > medicas that recent additions, some from 200 years ago, still are

> > not

> > > complete in their classification (such as in the Zhong yao da ci

> > dian)

> > > by channel, temperature, flavor and the like. It does take some

> > time.

> > >

> > > On Dec 10, 2007, at 5:35 PM, wrote:

> > >

> >

>

> Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> San Diego, Ca. 92122

December 13, 2007

, " juliacarp " <julia.carpenter

wrote: