echinacae for auto-immune patients?

[Guest guest]

I think Thomas and Zev are both making valid points.

Adding " Western " herbs to a TCM formula isn't technically pure TCM,

since the Western herbs don't have the same level of testing and

discussion over time. Western herbs that are already incorporated

into TCM have undergone centuries of this sort of testing. On the

other hand, I don't think that should stop us from using Western

herbs along with TCM formulas. I have been doing it for 17 years,

with no adverse effects. It is in fact a form of Jia Jian, which is

an important principle in modifying TCM formulas. I see no problem

in adding Cramp Bark to an Invigorate Blood formula for

dysmenorrhea, for example. It's only one herb, so its energetics are

less important than its action in this case. Or giving Echinacea to

a patient with weak Wei Qi. Clinical studies and personal experience

have shown that it is effective in preventing colds. Does that make

it tonifying? Don't know; don't care. It works.

 

Do we know exactly Western herbs will blend with the Chinese herbs?

Not exactly, which is why books like Thomas' are so important. That

sort of text is the BEGINNING of the discussion, not the end of it.

After 100 or so years of testing those herbs in TCM formulas, the

discussion will begin to rise to the level of experience that is

inherent in traditional Chinese herbal medicine. Thomas or his

descendants can edit the info accordingly. The discussion and

exploration has to start sometime; why not now? I'm not suggesting

that people with no experience using Western herbs start randomly

giving them to patients. On the other hand, with some education and

experience, the powerful Qi of organic or wildcrafted local herbs

can greatly enhance the efficacy of a traditional formula.

 

- Bill Schoenbart

 

 

 

,

wrote:

> I don't know what you mean when you suggest I said anything like

this. In fact, I realize that this is absolutly not true and that is

why it took me 12 years to write my book and that why there are only

58 full monographs in the book. I have dozens of other monographs in

a partial stage of varying lengths and completeness. What I wrote is

based on seeing many patients using the same herbs and combinations.

However, although I agree with your statement I do think that there

are certain commonalities that seem to show up through most

patients. At some point I believe we need to move forward. Consider

this, how many patients have to suffer because we are unable to or

unwilling act? If you give a patient a " traditional " formula and

they don't respond the way you anticipated despite correct diagnosis

and treatment principle, should you stop giving them anything?

Should you stop giving herbs to any patients because one patient

reacted differently than you expected? If this is

> true then you should stop giving herbs to any patients. Nothing

is set in stone in this world. No one person is the same! No herb

combination is exactly the same, even if we use the same herbs in

the same dosage! This is not an " exact " science. It is an art! And,

on some level we experiment every time we give a formula, whether

you want to believe that or not I believe it to be true.

>

> >With are new genetic understanding as well as clear as day

clinical experience people >have individual responses to herbs,

drugs, foods etc. I think that just because one has >good diagnostic

skills one can clearly match an herb, a formula to An individual and

know >what the response be is a bit of fantasy land. How dow we even

begin to deal with these >issues?

>

> I am not sure what you are driving at here. Are you suggesting I

am living in a fantasy land? I am not sure what you mean by " new

genetic understanding. " What does that have to do with Chinese

medicine, as practiced in a traditional manner?

>

> We begin to deal with these issues by careful observation! We

discuss our observations with other practitioners and compile data

based on these observations and historical information. This is far

superior to what doctors in the past have been able to do because we

have things like email, which enables a network of pratitioners to

communicate at a rate that was not afforded to doctors of the past.

>

> I hope this answers your questions, but if not keep asking, I am

enjoying the lively banter.

>

> Thomas

>

[Guest guest]

Thomas

my statements had nothing to do with what you said except as to, which

i totally agree with, the need to move forward. I was only giving an

example of one issue that clearly is not recognized within CM. There

many others. While we must continually improve our CM knowledge

(traditional) base we must also work with real patients and find real

solutions. So actually i agree with everything you said and only

reinforce the idea of forward movement and true critical thinking. Its

too easy to think that our " masters/sages " have most of the answers,

and then see only what we want to see. To do this we must keep a

scientific mindset not a traditionalist mindset. So if we find that

alcohol h2o fluid extracts work best we need to record these

observations share them so that others can either reproduce and refute

such experiences. We cant however rely of historical data on h2o

extract to support the use of alcohol h20 extracts

 

alon