echinacae for auto-immune patients?

[Guest guest]

<http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=201013/grpspId=1705060815/msgId=

41568/stime=1197830411/nc1=4836031/nc2=5008808/nc3=3848643> I've been

following this thread for awhile and I would refer you to Paul Bergner's (an

herbalist who I respect) cases at http://medherb.com/92ECHAUT.HTM --

Thinking of the condition for which I would prescribe echinacea. Would any

of us trained in TCM prescribe forsythia, Bupleurum or other external heat

clearing herbs singly for a patient whose condition is dominated by yin

deficiency -- ah that old joker in the deck, it gets the best of us. I would

also suggestion that you check out another herbalist and researcher who I

respect who at http://www.rrreading.com/Echinacea.html.

 

Echinacea clears surface heat and damp heat but is likely in substantial

dose, fortunately few take it in high enough dosage, to aggravate yin fire

or heat conditions resulting from yin deficiency. Guess what, that includes

most autoimmune conditions.

 

There is no herb, anywhere that I have found that has a powerful an effect

to resolve pus, bacterial infections (probably not viral), especially when

they are on the surface of the body. It works to an extent internally so

long as a yin deficient condition is not triggered by it.

 

Western herbalists get confused and there is hardly a clear definition

between calling an herb an 'immune- stimulant', versus an 'immune-tonic'.

There are supposed to be more precise definitions of these terms, which i

think was first coined by Rudolph Bauer, one of the leading Echinacea

researchers however, in parlance, confusion abounds.

 

The best TCM offers for describing the complex aspects of the immune system

is " wei Qi " and huang qi is the major herb for this, however echinacea

cannot and dare not be used in the same way as huang qi.

 

Giving a cold surface relieving herb like echinacea to patients with yin

deficiency can result in greater coldness. This is why TCM has the

distinction of specific herbs that clear " deficiency heat " such as

amenorrhea, moutan and phellodendron.

 

 

_____

 

<< ella for Spam Control >> has removed 3983 Spam messages and set aside

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[Guest guest]

Hi Michael,

 

Thanks for the link. Paul and I have talked quite a bit out this

project. Thanks for writing a forward for my book and the little bit

that is going on the back cover is also very kind. Sorry I can't

teach this year at your retreat, but China is treating me well.

 

I can't open the link you sent, could you send it as a tiny url or

try resending it.

 

Sincerely,

Thomas

 

, " Michael Tierra "

<mtierra wrote:

>

>

> <http://geo./serv?

s=97359714/grpId=201013/grpspId=1705060815/msgId=

> 41568/stime=1197830411/nc1=4836031/nc2=5008808/nc3=3848643> I've

been

> following this thread for awhile and I would refer you to Paul

Bergner's (an

> herbalist who I respect) cases at http://medherb.com/92ECHAUT.HTM -

-

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

As a scientist in training (ethnobotany), I am wondering what you

mean when you say, " we must keep a scientific mindset not a

traditionalist mindset. "

 

Thanks for posting, I find this discussion quite vitalizing.

 

I have included a bit about echinacea from the book for you all to

look at. I thought is would help the conversation. As far as the

discussion on the process, that piece would be rather long. I did

publish something of the sorts in the Lantern last year though.

 

Thomas

 

Echinacea purpurea

Echinacea

Echinacea spp.

Asteraceae

Numerous common names include purple coneflower, narrow purple

coneflower, pale coneflower, s¨­ng gu¨¯ j¨²

Echinaceae herba seu flos cum radice cum semen

Flavor and Q¨¬: Acrid, bitter, cool

Channels Entered: Lung, Liver, Bladder

Actions: Alterative, anti-inflammatory, immunomodulator, lymphatic,

vulnerary

Functions and Indications

6¦1 Clears heat, resolves toxins, and dispels wind. Echinacea is used

in the treatment of any form of heat or fire and toxicity due either

to external pathogens or internal derangement, wind-heat throat

impediment, wind-fire scrofula, wind-heat invading the lung, eczema,

and psoriasis. This herb is very effective in the beginning stages of

a heat (or cold) disease (i.e., w¨¨i of the Four Aspects or t¨¤i-y¨¢ng

of the Six Stages). However, don't overlook echinacea in later stages

of disease, which is, perhaps, the most appropriate time for its use

(e.g., y¨ªng and xu¨¨ of the Four Aspects or ju¨¦-y¨©n of the Six

Stages). Echinacea¡¯s acrid and bitter flavors have a powerful

action. When treating external invasion of wind and heat, its acrid

nature dispels wind and outthrusts pathogens, while its bitter and

cool nature clears heat. When treating later-stage disease,

echinacea¡¯s acridity enters and disperses the pathogenic q¨¬, while

its bitter flavor drains it. This action, combined with the cool

nature of this herb, gives echinacea a strong and unique ability to

clear heat or fire and resolve toxins.

6¦1 Clears heat and transforms phlegm. Echinacea is used in the

treatment of phlegm-heat obstructing the lungs, with symptoms of

cough and heat effusion with thick yellow or green sputum that is

difficult to expectorate. This herb is also effective when heat has

been allowed to penetrate the lungs, causing abscess and bleeding

with purulent expectoration. Echinacea¡¯s acrid nature transforms

phlegm while its bitter and cool nature clears heat.

6¦1 Clears heat and cools the blood. Echinacea is used in the treatment

of symptoms associated with stings and bites of any poisonous animal.

Echinacea is famous for its ability to enter the blood to treat

toxins from poisonous animals and insects. Its acrid and bitter

nature attacks evil q¨¬ and drains heat toxin. When treating these

types of conditions, I often give a tincture of echinacea separately

and tell the patient to take 30 to 60 gtts every 30 to 90 minutes,

depending on the severity of the condition. [as noted above gtts

means drops, we could change it to drops or add an abbreviation

section somewhere]I believe using tincture allows the medicinal to

more swiftly enter the blood, attack the evil q¨¬, and resolve heat

toxins.

6¦1 Clears heat, drains fire, and stops bleeding. Echinacea is used in

the treatment of extreme heat and fire that has damaged the network

vessels, causing bleeding, such as repletion lung fire, heat

vomiting, and heat strangury. As noted, echinacea is very good at

clearing heat and draining fire. In patterns such as those described

here, its acrid nature enters the q¨¬ of the blood and assisting the

blood to stay within the vessels.

6¦1 Clears heat and resolves toxins. Echinacea is used in the treatment

of symptoms associated with dampness for either damp-heat or damp-

toxin, with symptoms such as boils, carbuncles, lymphatic swelling,

sore throat, otitis media, sinusitis, strangury, blood in the stool,

or vomiting of blood. Echinacea is commonly used externally for

clearing heat and resolving toxins for open wounds, boils,

carbuncles, and sores. For external use, the tincture can be combined

with green clay to make a paste to apply to unexpressed boils and

venomous bites. For open wounds, combine with freshly powered

goldenseal and a small amount of green clay to make a paste. Apply

this paste and change the dressing twice a day, keeping the wound

clean and clear of debris. Also for red papules, macules, boils, and

carbuncles due to or associated with blood-heat. Also used for

bleeding due to blood-heat in conditions like red turbidity (urinary)

and repletion hemorrhoids.

Cautions: Because echinacea stimulates the activity of the immune

system, there is much debate about whether or not it is appropriate

for those with autoimmune diseases. Some sources report that it is

contraindicated; others state that it is indicated. I choose to not

use echinacea in people with autoimmune conditions, unless I feel it

is indicated for a specific acute pattern. Because of its acrid

flavor, echinacea¡¯s coolness does not damage the spleen, so those

with spleen q¨¬ vacuity can use it safely. Conversely, prolonged use

of an herb with this nature could injure the y¨©n and blood humors;

therefore, use caution in extended therapy.

Dosage and Preparation: Use 3¨C9 g in decoction (up to 30 g in acute

illness); 2¨C4 ml tincture; 1¨C2 ml fluidextract; 1¨C3 g powdered

extract.

[Guest guest]

Hi Thomas

To me a traditionalist mindset is one that is not open to the probable

mistakes in the model. A scientific mindset is one that is always open

and questioning

Alon