[Fwd: mechanism for vaporizing phlegm, and chinese term]

[Guest guest]

, yehuda frischman

< wrote:

>

> How interesting. I wonder why he changed the indication from

" vaporize " to " dislodge " . Obviously a very different connotation. I

further wonder what the term or terms were that were used in the

original Chinese text that Dan Bensky uses as his basis in the two

editions.

 

The Chinese term for the action of shi chang pu is often expressed as

huo4 tan2, this appears to be the action that Bensky is translating as

" vaporize " or " dislodge. " Wiseman translates the term huo4 tan2 as

" sweeps phlegm " ; sweeping phlegm is also used by the WHO in their

English translations for huo4 tan2.

 

Eric Brand

[Guest guest]

Thank you Eric. Can you explain in more detail the etymology and implications

of the character/term huo4. I find it very difficult to grasp how vaporize,

dislodge and sweep can be viewed as synonyms. Their connotations are all so

different, the first implying being transformed from liquid to gas, the second

implying getting unstuck, and the third implying being moved as it were, like

with a broom or a perhaps a parastaltic, rhythmic type of motion.

 

Yehuda

 

Eric Brand <smilinglotus wrote:

, yehuda frischman

< wrote:

>

> How interesting. I wonder why he changed the indication from

" vaporize " to " dislodge " . Obviously a very different connotation. I

further wonder what the term or terms were that were used in the

original Chinese text that Dan Bensky uses as his basis in the two

editions.

 

The Chinese term for the action of shi chang pu is often expressed as

huo4 tan2, this appears to be the action that Bensky is translating as

" vaporize " or " dislodge. " Wiseman translates the term huo4 tan2 as

" sweeps phlegm " ; sweeping phlegm is also used by the WHO in their

English translations for huo4 tan2.

 

Eric Brand

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Never miss a thing. Make your homepage.

 

 

[Guest guest]

One additional note: In Wiseman's Practical DIctionary of he

defines " sweep " (huo4) as, " Forceful elimination of evils, such as phlegm. "

 

wrote: Thank you Eric. Can you

explain in more detail the etymology and implications of the character/term

huo4. I find it very difficult to grasp how vaporize, dislodge and sweep can be

viewed as synonyms. Their connotations are all so different, the first implying

being transformed from liquid to gas, the second implying getting unstuck, and

the third implying being moved as it were, like with a broom or a perhaps a

parastaltic, rhythmic type of motion.

 

Yehuda

 

Eric Brand <smilinglotus wrote:

, yehuda frischman

< wrote:

>

> How interesting. I wonder why he changed the indication from

" vaporize " to " dislodge " . Obviously a very different connotation. I

further wonder what the term or terms were that were used in the

original Chinese text that Dan Bensky uses as his basis in the two

editions.

 

The Chinese term for the action of shi chang pu is often expressed as

huo4 tan2, this appears to be the action that Bensky is translating as

" vaporize " or " dislodge. " Wiseman translates the term huo4 tan2 as

" sweeps phlegm " ; sweeping phlegm is also used by the WHO in their

English translations for huo4 tan2.

 

Eric Brand

 

 

 

 

 

 

Never miss a thing. Make your homepage.

 

 

[Guest guest]

I think this change is just a further refinement of term choices in our

ever-evolving world of translation. Remember the Materia Medica II was

published around 20 years ago. I personally like dislodge more than

vaporize.

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of yehuda frischman

Wednesday, January 09, 2008 11:58 AM

 

Re: [Fwd: Re: mechanism for vaporizing phlegm, and chinese

term]

 

 

 

How interesting. I wonder why he changed the indication from " vaporize " to

" dislodge " . Obviously a very different connotation. I further wonder what

the term or terms were that were used in the original Chinese text that Dan

Bensky uses as his basis in the two editions.

 

Cliff Rae <cliff (AT) cliffrae (DOT) <cliff%40cliffrae.com> com> wrote:

Hi Folks,

 

3rd edition of Bensky states re: Shi Chang Pu: " Opens the orifices,

*/dislodges/* phlegm, removes filth, and quiets the spirit: " with the

rest of the statement remaining the same.

 

This is my first message to the group; I am but 2nd year student. So

thanks to everyone.

 

Cliff Rae

 

yehuda frischman wrote:

>

> Jason,

>

> You find the term used in the old Bensky Materia Medica( I don't have

> the new one yet, so I can't tell you if he has revised his

> description) in the first of the actions and indications for Shi Chang

> Pu: " Opens the orifices, vaporizes phlegm, and quiets the spirit: For

> phlegm veiling and blocking the sensory orifices with such symptoms as

> deafness, dizziness, forgetfulness and dulled sensorium, as well as

> seizures or stupor. "

>

> But I could not find the term as used in the on-line Eastland Press

> glossary or the Wiseman's PD.

>

> So I'd like to know the mechanism, too!

>

> Yehuda

> <@chinesemed

<%40Chinese Medicine> icinedoc.com

> <%40Chinese Medicine>> wrote:

> Just curious, where is the term vaporize from? Do you know the Chinese?

>

> -Jason

>

> _____

>

> @ <%40>

 

> <%40>

> [@ <%40>

 

> <%40>] On Behalf Of Sharon Sherman

> Tuesday, January 08, 2008 12:43 PM

> @ <%40>

 

> <%40>

> Phlegm vs Dampness

>

> I have 2 questions that I can't seem to find a satisfactory answer in

> books.

> 1) At what point does enduring internal dampness either

> turbid-dampness or damp-heat become " insubstantial " phlegm. It is much

> more common to see patterns that deal with the dampness aspect

> however, at some point and in an older patient, you would have

> phlegm.?. At what point should the diagnosis/treatment principles be

> refined ?

>

> 2)When treating phlegm, what are we really doing when we " vaporize " it?

> thanks

>

>

[Guest guest]

Y,

 

 

 

Dissolve (»í huo) has the meaning of ¡°forcefully eliminating evils, such as

phlegm.¡± Hence Bensky translates »í (huo) as ¡°dislodges, forcefully

removes.¡±

 

 

 

There is also the phrase ¡°dislodge phlegm and awaken the brain¡± (»í̵ÐÑÄÔ,

huo tan xing nao) which has the definition of ¡°transform phlegm and open

the orifices.¡± This is CM treatment method.

 

 

 

Bensky lists tian zhu huang, zhu li, dan nan xing, niu huang, shi chang pu,

and hou zao all having the ability to dislodge phlegm. All (except for I

think hou zou) also are said to open the orifices.

 

 

 

This should give you a good idea of what this phrase means.

 

 

 

Let me know if you have any questions.

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of yehuda frischman

Wednesday, January 09, 2008 1:35 PM

 

Re: [Fwd: Re: mechanism for vaporizing phlegm, and chinese

term]

 

 

 

Thank you Eric. Can you explain in more detail the etymology and

implications of the character/term huo4. I find it very difficult to grasp

how vaporize, dislodge and sweep can be viewed as synonyms. Their

connotations are all so different, the first implying being transformed from

liquid to gas, the second implying getting unstuck, and the third implying

being moved as it were, like with a broom or a perhaps a parastaltic,

rhythmic type of motion.

 

Yehuda

 

Eric Brand <smilinglotus@ <smilinglotus%40> >

wrote:

@ <%40>

, yehuda frischman

< wrote:

>

> How interesting. I wonder why he changed the indication from

" vaporize " to " dislodge " . Obviously a very different connotation. I

further wonder what the term or terms were that were used in the

original Chinese text that Dan Bensky uses as his basis in the two

editions.

 

The Chinese term for the action of shi chang pu is often expressed as

huo4 tan2, this appears to be the action that Bensky is translating as

" vaporize " or " dislodge. " Wiseman translates the term huo4 tan2 as

" sweeps phlegm " ; sweeping phlegm is also used by the WHO in their

English translations for huo4 tan2.

 

Eric Brand

 

 

 

 

 

 

Never miss a thing. Make your homepage.