[Fwd: mechanism for vaporizing phlegm, and chinese term]

January 9, 2008

The problem I have with dislodge is that it suggests that phlegm is a

substance that is moved somewhere else when it is dislodged. It's same

issue as transformed. Transformed into what?

I've never seen phlegm, when properly treated, do anything other

than... well, disappear (vaporize?)

Jason, while we're here, what is the chinese word for scour?

Doug

, " "

wrote:

>

> Y,

>

> Dissolve (»í huo) has the meaning of ¡°forcefully eliminating evils,

such as

> phlegm.¡± Hence Bensky translates »í (huo) as ¡°dislodges, forcefully

> removes.¡±

>

> There is also the phrase ¡°dislodge phlegm and awaken the brain¡± (»í

ÌµÐÑÄÔ,

> huo tan xing nao) which has the definition of ¡°transform phlegm and open

> the orifices.¡± This is CM treatment method.

>

> Bensky lists tian zhu huang, zhu li, dan nan xing, niu huang, shi

chang pu,

> and hou zao all having the ability to dislodge phlegm. All (except for I

> think hou zou) also are said to open the orifices.

>

> This should give you a good idea of what this phrase means.

>

> Let me know if you have any questions.

>

> -

>

> _____

>

> On Behalf Of yehuda

frischman

> Wednesday, January 09, 2008 1:35 PM

>

> Re: [Fwd: Re: mechanism for vaporizing phlegm, and

chinese

> term]

>

> Thank you Eric. Can you explain in more detail the etymology and

> implications of the character/term huo4. I find it very difficult to

grasp

> how vaporize, dislodge and sweep can be viewed as synonyms. Their

> connotations are all so different, the first implying being

transformed from

> liquid to gas, the second implying getting unstuck, and the third

implying

> being moved as it were, like with a broom or a perhaps a parastaltic,

> rhythmic type of motion.

>

> Yehuda

>

> Eric Brand <smilinglotus@ <smilinglotus%40> >

> wrote:

> @ <%40>

> , yehuda frischman

> <@> wrote:

> >

> > How interesting. I wonder why he changed the indication from

> " vaporize " to " dislodge " . Obviously a very different connotation. I

> further wonder what the term or terms were that were used in the

> original Chinese text that Dan Bensky uses as his basis in the two

> editions.

>

> The Chinese term for the action of shi chang pu is often expressed as

> huo4 tan2, this appears to be the action that Bensky is translating as

> " vaporize " or " dislodge. " Wiseman translates the term huo4 tan2 as

> " sweeps phlegm " ; sweeping phlegm is also used by the WHO in their

> English translations for huo4 tan2.

>

> Eric Brand

>

January 9, 2008

Doug,

Scour, as used by Eastland Press, is (dÃ æ»Œ). But maybe others use it

differently. What source are you looking at? DÃ æ»Œ is also translated as

flushes [away] by Eastland. (Note: Wiseman uses â€œFlushâ€)

But you make a good point about the problems with the below terms. However, I do

not think it really matters, because the terms really only gain their meaning in

relation to treatment / herbs etc. I think most important is to understand the

overall definition and strength of the treatment. As we know with CM terms, we

should not blindly assume we understand what any term means based on how we

perceive the meaning on its own, or more simply, we should not assume its

meaning without considering the full context in which it appears.

I do see though how the term â€œtransformâ€ could mislead people. I think there

was some idea (CHA?) about damp or phlegm being able to be transformed into

healthy fluids. I canâ€™t say I have ever seen this in Chinese, and really only

think of transforming phlegm as a general term for the elimination of phlegm.

Does anyone know of Chinese source that discusses the idea of phlegm

transforming into something?

MaybeåŒ–ç—° (hua tan) should just be translated as â€œremove phlegm.â€ If one

consults the definition of transform phlegm (åŒ–ç—°hua tan) in the zhongyicihai

(Chinese medicinal dictionary) it defines it with the word ç¥›ï¼ˆqu1ï¼‰= dispel

/ remove. åŒ– (hua) on its own does mean transform or change, but also melt,

dissolve, thaw, remove, etcâ€¦

Vaporize (IMHO) is just to star trekyâ€¦ :-)

-Jason

_____

On Behalf Of

Wednesday, January 09, 2008 7:40 PM

[Fwd: Re: mechanism for vaporizing phlegm, and chinese term]

The problem I have with dislodge is that it suggests that phlegm is a

substance that is moved somewhere else when it is dislodged. It's same

issue as transformed. Transformed into what?

I've never seen phlegm, when properly treated, do anything other

than... well, disappear (vaporize?)

Jason, while we're here, what is the chinese word for scour?

Doug

@ <%40>

, " "

wrote:

>

> Y,

>

> Dissolve (Â»Ã huo) has the meaning of Â¡Â°forcefully eliminating evils,

such as

> phlegm.Â¡Â± Hence Bensky translates Â»Ã (huo) as Â¡Â°dislodges, forcefully

> removes.Â¡Â±

>

> There is also the phrase Â¡Â°dislodge phlegm and awaken the brainÂ¡Â± (Â»Ã

ÃŒÂµÃÃ‘Ã„Ã”,

> huo tan xing nao) which has the definition of Â¡Â°transform phlegm and open

> the orifices.Â¡Â± This is CM treatment method.

>

> Bensky lists tian zhu huang, zhu li, dan nan xing, niu huang, shi

chang pu,

> and hou zao all having the ability to dislodge phlegm. All (except for I

> think hou zou) also are said to open the orifices.

>

> This should give you a good idea of what this phrase means.

>

> Let me know if you have any questions.

>

> -

>

> _____

>

> @ <%40>

> [@ <%40>

] On Behalf Of yehuda

frischman

> Wednesday, January 09, 2008 1:35 PM

> @ <%40>

> Re: [Fwd: Re: mechanism for vaporizing phlegm, and

chinese

> term]

>

> Thank you Eric. Can you explain in more detail the etymology and

> implications of the character/term huo4. I find it very difficult to

grasp

> how vaporize, dislodge and sweep can be viewed as synonyms. Their

> connotations are all so different, the first implying being

transformed from

> liquid to gas, the second implying getting unstuck, and the third

implying

> being moved as it were, like with a broom or a perhaps a parastaltic,

> rhythmic type of motion.

>

> Yehuda

>

> Eric Brand <smilinglotus@ <smilinglotus%40> >

> wrote:

> @ <%40>

> , yehuda frischman

> <@> wrote:

> >

> > How interesting. I wonder why he changed the indication from

> " vaporize " to " dislodge " . Obviously a very different connotation. I

> further wonder what the term or terms were that were used in the

> original Chinese text that Dan Bensky uses as his basis in the two

> editions.

>

> The Chinese term for the action of shi chang pu is often expressed as

> huo4 tan2, this appears to be the action that Bensky is translating as

> " vaporize " or " dislodge. " Wiseman translates the term huo4 tan2 as

> " sweeps phlegm " ; sweeping phlegm is also used by the WHO in their

> English translations for huo4 tan2.

>

> Eric Brand

>

January 10, 2008

On Jan 9, 2008 7:19 PM,

wrote:

> I do see though how the term " transform " could mislead people. I think

> there was some idea (CHA?) about damp or phlegm being able to be transformed

> into healthy fluids. I can't say I have ever seen this in Chinese, and

> really only think of transforming phlegm as a general term for the

> elimination of phlegm. Does anyone know of Chinese source that discusses the

> idea of phlegm transforming into something?

>

I can't point to Chinese language sources, but there are a few theories and

herb functions that kind of pair up to suggest that a few herbs can

transform a pathological product into a physiological one. It comes from the

definition of one kind of phlegm as " substantial fire " . The mechanism for

production of this kind of phlegm is when heat dries up the yin into a thick

fluid that is called phlegm. So this phlegm isn't secondary to dampness or

an Earth element issue, but rather fire " reducing " (as in cooking a broth)

yin into phlegm.

So, take an herb that clears heat, transforms phlegm, and generates or

moistens fluids and you've got an herb that effectively transforms

pathological phlegm into physiological yin. This remains uncomfirmed by the

traditional (human) sources that I work with, but does provide an

interesting way to think about the use of a couple of herbs that come to

mind such as Chuan Bei Mu (doesn't generate fluids, but good for dry cough)

and Tian Hua Fen.

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

January 10, 2008

Al,

Thanks for your idea. I agree that one of the mechanisms for phlegm

production is fire decocting the fluids into phlegm. However, I see no

reason to believe that treating this with something like tian hua fen is

able to transform the pathological phlegm into physiological fluids. I see

no indication in materia medicas to support this. Furthermore, just because

tian hau fen generates fluids (and also transforms phlegm) does not suggest

that the pathological phlegm is turning back into physiological fluids.

Tian hua fen is often used in situations where there is major fluid

deficiency without any phlegm. Therefore we know that it can supplement or

generate fluids. Actually many list this as a primary function. In these

situations it does not turn something pathological into physiological. It

generates. I see no reason to take this fact and create new Chinese theory.

Finally one must understand how such functions work in combination with

other herbs, and the role each plays. When phlegm is too dry to eliminate

one may choose tian hua fen to help loosen or moisten the phlegm so that

other herbs can help eliminate it. For example, to drain heat, transform

phlegm, and moisten lung dryness use bèi mû, säng bái pí, and jié gêng for

cough due to phlegm-heat in the Lungs with thick, viscous sputum or

blood-streaked sputum.

Or with guä lóu pí for nonproductive cough or one with scanty sputum, with a

stifling sensation and thirst in the aftermath of a febrile disease.

I think it is telling that Bensky lists the key characteristics for tian hua

fen as “cools heat, generates fluids, resolves toxicity, reduces swelling,

invigorates the blood” – He mentions nothing about phlegm.

This (IMO) is because it really is not it primary action. For this action it

must be in combination with others. Of course it aids in the eliminate of

phlegm by moistening and this is why some texts say it “moistens the lungs

and transforms phlegm” –

But can one extrapolate that is changes this phlegm into something

physiological? I can’t see how. I only see that tian hua fen does it normal

job of generating fluids.

Further thoughts?

-

_____

On Behalf Of Al Stone

Thursday, January 10, 2008 9:31 AM

Re: [Fwd: Re: mechanism for vaporizing phlegm, and chinese

term]

On Jan 9, 2008 7:19 PM, <@chinesemed

<%40Chinese Medicine> icinedoc.com>

wrote:

> I do see though how the term " transform " could mislead people. I think

> there was some idea (CHA?) about damp or phlegm being able to be

transformed

> into healthy fluids. I can't say I have ever seen this in Chinese, and

> really only think of transforming phlegm as a general term for the

> elimination of phlegm. Does anyone know of Chinese source that discusses

the

> idea of phlegm transforming into something?

>

I can't point to Chinese language sources, but there are a few theories and

herb functions that kind of pair up to suggest that a few herbs can

transform a pathological product into a physiological one. It comes from the

definition of one kind of phlegm as " substantial fire " . The mechanism for

production of this kind of phlegm is when heat dries up the yin into a thick

fluid that is called phlegm. So this phlegm isn't secondary to dampness or

an Earth element issue, but rather fire " reducing " (as in cooking a broth)

yin into phlegm.

So, take an herb that clears heat, transforms phlegm, and generates or

moistens fluids and you've got an herb that effectively transforms

pathological phlegm into physiological yin. This remains uncomfirmed by the

traditional (human) sources that I work with, but does provide an

interesting way to think about the use of a couple of herbs that come to

mind such as Chuan Bei Mu (doesn't generate fluids, but good for dry cough)

and Tian Hua Fen.

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

January 10, 2008

I had one more though on this subject.

In conditions of dampness with yin deficiency one usually sees some type of

yin tonics. Therefore I ask, if one could somehow " change " the phlegm back

into yin fluids why would one need to nourish yin in these situations?

Comments?

-

_____

On Behalf Of Al Stone

Thursday, January 10, 2008 9:31 AM

Re: [Fwd: Re: mechanism for vaporizing phlegm, and chinese

term]

On Jan 9, 2008 7:19 PM, <@chinesemed

<%40Chinese Medicine> icinedoc.com>

wrote:

> I do see though how the term " transform " could mislead people. I think

> there was some idea (CHA?) about damp or phlegm being able to be

transformed

> into healthy fluids. I can't say I have ever seen this in Chinese, and

> really only think of transforming phlegm as a general term for the

> elimination of phlegm. Does anyone know of Chinese source that discusses

the

> idea of phlegm transforming into something?

>

I can't point to Chinese language sources, but there are a few theories and

herb functions that kind of pair up to suggest that a few herbs can

transform a pathological product into a physiological one. It comes from the

definition of one kind of phlegm as " substantial fire " . The mechanism for

production of this kind of phlegm is when heat dries up the yin into a thick

fluid that is called phlegm. So this phlegm isn't secondary to dampness or

an Earth element issue, but rather fire " reducing " (as in cooking a broth)

yin into phlegm.

So, take an herb that clears heat, transforms phlegm, and generates or

moistens fluids and you've got an herb that effectively transforms

pathological phlegm into physiological yin. This remains uncomfirmed by the

traditional (human) sources that I work with, but does provide an

interesting way to think about the use of a couple of herbs that come to

mind such as Chuan Bei Mu (doesn't generate fluids, but good for dry cough)

and Tian Hua Fen.

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

January 10, 2008

Jason,

what Yin tonics are you referring to? Shi hu? Tian hua fen? Can you give an

example of a formula?

Cara O. Frank, R.OM, Dipl Ac & Ch.H.

Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:05:01 -0700

RE: [Fwd: Re: mechanism for vaporizing phlegm, and chinese

term]

I had one more though on this subject.

In conditions of dampness with yin deficiency one usually sees some type of

yin tonics. Therefore I ask, if one could somehow " change " the phlegm back

into yin fluids why would one need to nourish yin in these situations?

Comments?

-

_____

<%40>

[

<%40> ] On Behalf Of Al Stone

Thursday, January 10, 2008 9:31 AM

<%40>

Re: [Fwd: Re: mechanism for vaporizing phlegm, and chinese

term]

On Jan 9, 2008 7:19 PM, <@chinesemed

<%40Chinese Medicine> icinedoc.com>

wrote:

> I do see though how the term " transform " could mislead people. I think

> there was some idea (CHA?) about damp or phlegm being able to be

transformed

> into healthy fluids. I can't say I have ever seen this in Chinese, and

> really only think of transforming phlegm as a general term for the

> elimination of phlegm. Does anyone know of Chinese source that discusses

the

> idea of phlegm transforming into something?

>

I can't point to Chinese language sources, but there are a few theories and

herb functions that kind of pair up to suggest that a few herbs can

transform a pathological product into a physiological one. It comes from the

definition of one kind of phlegm as " substantial fire " . The mechanism for

production of this kind of phlegm is when heat dries up the yin into a thick

fluid that is called phlegm. So this phlegm isn't secondary to dampness or

an Earth element issue, but rather fire " reducing " (as in cooking a broth)

yin into phlegm.

So, take an herb that clears heat, transforms phlegm, and generates or

moistens fluids and you've got an herb that effectively transforms

pathological phlegm into physiological yin. This remains uncomfirmed by the

traditional (human) sources that I work with, but does provide an

interesting way to think about the use of a couple of herbs that come to

mind such as Chuan Bei Mu (doesn't generate fluids, but good for dry cough)

and Tian Hua Fen.

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

January 10, 2008

I thought more about this. Does this answer your question?

in my classes, I teach my students that inside virtually every dry cough is

a wet one waiting to be discovered. What I mean by this is that when there

is more heat, phlegm gets thicker, dryer, difficult to expectorate. The

cough may sound dry, but don¹t believe it. The aha sx is that the chest

also feels heavy/ oppressed or tight. In this case we need to use heat

clearing, phlegm resolving herbs. Like gua lou and zhe bei mu and tian hua

fen. It¹s like using a mucolytic expectorant. Like mucinex. Thicker, heavier

yin tonics, such as mai dong, wont do the trick, because success hinges on

simultaneously generating fluids, clearing heat and resolving phlegm.

My teacher in the respiratory department at xi yuan hospital used this

strategy and I do to. I get very good results treating Uri¹s.

hope this helps

Cara

Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:05:01 -0700

RE: [Fwd: Re: mechanism for vaporizing phlegm, and chinese

term]

I had one more though on this subject.

In conditions of dampness with yin deficiency one usually sees some type of

yin tonics. Therefore I ask, if one could somehow " change " the phlegm back

into yin fluids why would one need to nourish yin in these situations?

Comments?

-

_____

<%40>

[

<%40> ] On Behalf Of Al Stone

Thursday, January 10, 2008 9:31 AM

<%40>

Re: [Fwd: Re: mechanism for vaporizing phlegm, and chinese

term]

On Jan 9, 2008 7:19 PM, <@chinesemed

<%40Chinese Medicine> icinedoc.com>

wrote:

> I do see though how the term " transform " could mislead people. I think

> there was some idea (CHA?) about damp or phlegm being able to be

transformed

> into healthy fluids. I can't say I have ever seen this in Chinese, and

> really only think of transforming phlegm as a general term for the

> elimination of phlegm. Does anyone know of Chinese source that discusses

the

> idea of phlegm transforming into something?

>

I can't point to Chinese language sources, but there are a few theories and

herb functions that kind of pair up to suggest that a few herbs can

transform a pathological product into a physiological one. It comes from the

definition of one kind of phlegm as " substantial fire " . The mechanism for

production of this kind of phlegm is when heat dries up the yin into a thick

fluid that is called phlegm. So this phlegm isn't secondary to dampness or

an Earth element issue, but rather fire " reducing " (as in cooking a broth)

yin into phlegm.

So, take an herb that clears heat, transforms phlegm, and generates or

moistens fluids and you've got an herb that effectively transforms

pathological phlegm into physiological yin. This remains uncomfirmed by the

traditional (human) sources that I work with, but does provide an

interesting way to think about the use of a couple of herbs that come to

mind such as Chuan Bei Mu (doesn't generate fluids, but good for dry cough)

and Tian Hua Fen.

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

January 10, 2008

Jason, I just read your question for the 3rd time and I realize I still did

not answer it.

Seeing patients, but will get back to you later

Cara O. Frank, R.OM, Dipl Ac & Ch.H.

Six Fishes Healing Arts &

President China Herb Company of the Chinese Herb Program

Tai Sophia Institute of the Healing Arts

215-772-0770

Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:05:01 -0700

RE: [Fwd: Re: mechanism for vaporizing phlegm, and chinese

term]

I had one more though on this subject.

In conditions of dampness with yin deficiency one usually sees some type of

yin tonics. Therefore I ask, if one could somehow " change " the phlegm back

into yin fluids why would one need to nourish yin in these situations?

Comments?

-

_____

<%40>

[

<%40> ] On Behalf Of Al Stone

Thursday, January 10, 2008 9:31 AM

<%40>

Re: [Fwd: Re: mechanism for vaporizing phlegm, and chinese

term]

On Jan 9, 2008 7:19 PM, <@chinesemed

<%40Chinese Medicine> icinedoc.com>

wrote:

> I do see though how the term " transform " could mislead people. I think

> there was some idea (CHA?) about damp or phlegm being able to be

transformed

> into healthy fluids. I can't say I have ever seen this in Chinese, and

> really only think of transforming phlegm as a general term for the

> elimination of phlegm. Does anyone know of Chinese source that discusses

the

> idea of phlegm transforming into something?

>

I can't point to Chinese language sources, but there are a few theories and

herb functions that kind of pair up to suggest that a few herbs can

transform a pathological product into a physiological one. It comes from the

definition of one kind of phlegm as " substantial fire " . The mechanism for

production of this kind of phlegm is when heat dries up the yin into a thick

fluid that is called phlegm. So this phlegm isn't secondary to dampness or

an Earth element issue, but rather fire " reducing " (as in cooking a broth)

yin into phlegm.

So, take an herb that clears heat, transforms phlegm, and generates or

moistens fluids and you've got an herb that effectively transforms

pathological phlegm into physiological yin. This remains uncomfirmed by the

traditional (human) sources that I work with, but does provide an

interesting way to think about the use of a couple of herbs that come to

mind such as Chuan Bei Mu (doesn't generate fluids, but good for dry cough)

and Tian Hua Fen.

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

January 10, 2008

Cara,

You can use all sorts of yin (and blood) tonics in these situations in the

treatment of phlegm / dampness. For example, one may see shu di shi hu, mai

dong, wuwei zi, xuan shen, bai shao, tian dong, or gou qi zi etc.

On a side note: Here is fun formula from Fluid Physiology (case study): The

formula treats nausea and vomiting from phlegm created by kidney xu:

Although this is more yang xu, I like the fact that the two primary herbs

are somewhat sticky and blood tonics.

Gou Qi Zi 15 g Lycii Chinensis, Fructus

He Shou Wu 15 g Polygoni Multiflori, Radix

Fu Zi 6 g Aconiti Carmichaeli Praeparata, Radix

Fu Ling 30 g Poriae Cocos, Sclerotium)

Zhu Ru 20 g Bambusae in Taeniis, Caulis, prepared with vinegar

Ze Xie 15 g Alismatis Plantago-aquaticae, Rhizoma

Wu Zhu Yu 6 g Evodiae Rutacarpae, Fructus, soaked then dry-fried

Ban Xia 10 g Pinelliae Ternatae, Rhizoma

Huo Xiang 10 g Agastachis seu Pogostemi, Herba

Chai Hu 6 g Bupleuri, Radix

Gan Cao 3 g Glycyrrhizae Uralensis, Radix

-Jason

_____

On Behalf Of Cara Frank

Thursday, January 10, 2008 11:24 AM

Re: [Fwd: Re: mechanism for vaporizing phlegm, and Chinese

term]

Jason,

what Yin tonics are you referring to? Shi hu? Tian hua fen? Can you give an

example of a formula?

Cara O. Frank, R.OM, Dipl Ac & Ch.H.

<@chinesemed

<%40Chinese Medicine> icinedoc.com>

<@ <%40>

>

Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:05:01 -0700

<@ <%40>

>

RE: [Fwd: Re: mechanism for vaporizing phlegm, and chinese

term]

I had one more though on this subject.

In conditions of dampness with yin deficiency one usually sees some type of

yin tonics. Therefore I ask, if one could somehow " change " the phlegm back

into yin fluids why would one need to nourish yin in these situations?

Comments?

-

_____

@ <%40>

<%40>

[@ <%40>

<%40> ] On Behalf Of Al Stone

Thursday, January 10, 2008 9:31 AM

@ <%40>

<%40>

Re: [Fwd: Re: mechanism for vaporizing phlegm, and chinese

term]

On Jan 9, 2008 7:19 PM, <@chinesemed

<%40Chinese Medicine> icinedoc.com>

wrote:

> I do see though how the term " transform " could mislead people. I think

> there was some idea (CHA?) about damp or phlegm being able to be

transformed

> into healthy fluids. I can't say I have ever seen this in Chinese, and

> really only think of transforming phlegm as a general term for the

> elimination of phlegm. Does anyone know of Chinese source that discusses

the

> idea of phlegm transforming into something?

>

I can't point to Chinese language sources, but there are a few theories and

herb functions that kind of pair up to suggest that a few herbs can

transform a pathological product into a physiological one. It comes from the

definition of one kind of phlegm as " substantial fire " . The mechanism for

production of this kind of phlegm is when heat dries up the yin into a thick

fluid that is called phlegm. So this phlegm isn't secondary to dampness or

an Earth element issue, but rather fire " reducing " (as in cooking a broth)

yin into phlegm.

So, take an herb that clears heat, transforms phlegm, and generates or

moistens fluids and you've got an herb that effectively transforms

pathological phlegm into physiological yin. This remains uncomfirmed by the

traditional (human) sources that I work with, but does provide an

interesting way to think about the use of a couple of herbs that come to

mind such as Chuan Bei Mu (doesn't generate fluids, but good for dry cough)

and Tian Hua Fen.

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

January 10, 2008

Cara,

I agree, I see nothing strange about the approach you mention, just your

thinking to back it up is a little questionable (IMHO). How can you call a

dry cough wet? A dry cough is just that, dry sounding, lack of phlegm etc.

The proper treatment is to moisten. You are moistening and generating fluids

because there is dryness. If there is heat: You clear heat, because there

is heat (which is creating dryness). If it comes about from a pathogen you

release it.

For example:

1. Warm-dryness pattern (i.e. sang xing tang) still uses sha shen and

li pi.

2. or in qing zao jiu fei tang (warm-dryness attacking the Lung) uses e

jiao, mai dong, hei zhi ma!

These patterns of course have dry hacking coughs.

In such cases the chest may or may not feel tight or heavy. This really

means little in determining its dryness / wetness. One can have a very tight

/ heavy chest with large amounts of wet phlegm.

However, I still don’t see how this strategy changes the pathological fluids

into physiological ones. (?)

Actually if after this strategy you get more phlegm (which often is the

case), I find it even harder to believe that you are changing phlegm into

jinye (fluids). You merely are moistening what is dry and the body is able

to eliminate (and produce) the (previously dry) phlegm.

So to conclude: of course the strategy works well, I use it often. I live in

one of the driest climates for the US, high altitude Rockies. I see this

sort of pattern all the time, and depending on the severity you may need to

use all sorts of yin and blood tonics to counteract the dry pathogen.

So I disagree that you don’t use medicinals like maidong etc. sometimes you

need to use all the big guns… I see this is clinical practice (almost daily)

as well as in case studies from famous physicians like Ye Tian-Shi (which

incidentally lived in a pretty damp climate.)

But this is getting a bit away from the original question…

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On Behalf Of Cara Frank

Thursday, January 10, 2008 11:38 AM