Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

[Guest guest]

Some people on this list will know that I have had a several decades'

interest in Wu Mei (Fructus Mume) and that I believe that standard

contemporary descriptions on its functions and indications do not do

this medicinal justice. As an example of this belief, in issue #11,

2007 of the Zhong Yi Za Zhi (Journal of ), there's a

little article on pages 1051-1052 on Liu Hong-si's experiences using

Wu Mei. Liu Hong-si was a Qing dynasty practitioner and author of Yi

Men Ba Fa (Eight Methods for Practicing Medicine). Liu believed that

Wu Mei is able to both supplement and emolliate or soften the liver.

According to Wiseman and Feng in their PD of CM, " emolliating the

liver " is synonymous with nourishing the liver, and, as we know, this

is synonymous with nourishing or supplementing liver blood. Wiseman

and Feng go on to say that " emolliating the liver is the standard

method of supplementing the liver. " Liu seems to base this opinion on

Zhang Zhong-jing who supposedly said that, when treating liver

diseases, " to supplement use sour " tasting medicinals, and Wu Mei is

sour. Liu also quotes another book which says that " Wu Mei engenders

the blood. " However, Liu seems to also believe that Wu Mei treats

liver qi depression and binding at the same time as it emolliates the

liver since he talks about it treating the various manifestations of a

liver-spleen disharmony (i.e., the liver checking or controlling the

spleen). He also says, that, " [When] the liver qi acts violently, use

Wu Mei's sour restraining to restrict this. "

 

Anyone care to comment?

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

Bob,

 

 

 

Thanks for bringing up this medicinal; I also in the past years have had an

affinity towards it. (I think it suits CO quite well).

 

 

 

Consequently, apart from its Lung usages, I have routinely used wu mei to

supplement Liver yin and to preserve the liver (lian gan). It works quite

well. It makes perfect sense that it also treats Liver constraint in a

similar fashion as bai shao. I use it this manner also. I actually thought

this was a common idea until I checked Bensky. Although not in Bensky it is

well documented in Chinese literature.

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Bob Flaws

Wednesday, February 06, 2008 2:40 PM

 

Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

 

 

 

Some people on this list will know that I have had a several decades'

interest in Wu Mei (Fructus Mume) and that I believe that standard

contemporary descriptions on its functions and indications do not do

this medicinal justice. As an example of this belief, in issue #11,

2007 of the Zhong Yi Za Zhi (Journal of ), there's a

little article on pages 1051-1052 on Liu Hong-si's experiences using

Wu Mei. Liu Hong-si was a Qing dynasty practitioner and author of Yi

Men Ba Fa (Eight Methods for Practicing Medicine). Liu believed that

Wu Mei is able to both supplement and emolliate or soften the liver.

According to Wiseman and Feng in their PD of CM, " emolliating the

liver " is synonymous with nourishing the liver, and, as we know, this

is synonymous with nourishing or supplementing liver blood. Wiseman

and Feng go on to say that " emolliating the liver is the standard

method of supplementing the liver. " Liu seems to base this opinion on

Zhang Zhong-jing who supposedly said that, when treating liver

diseases, " to supplement use sour " tasting medicinals, and Wu Mei is

sour. Liu also quotes another book which says that " Wu Mei engenders

the blood. " However, Liu seems to also believe that Wu Mei treats

liver qi depression and binding at the same time as it emolliates the

liver since he talks about it treating the various manifestations of a

liver-spleen disharmony (i.e., the liver checking or controlling the

spleen). He also says, that, " [When] the liver qi acts violently, use

Wu Mei's sour restraining to restrict this. "

 

Anyone care to comment?

 

Bob

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Bob,

I appreciate you bringing this up because I too have an affinity for this

medicinal. I have sensed that it has much more to offer than it is generally

given credit for but have not particularly followed up with study. Yet anyway.

 

However, last June I attended Jimmy Chang's advanced prescriptionology course in

Oakland. He talked about ways to turn a formula appropriate for a diagnosis from

a " pretty good " to a " wow. " As an example, he spoke about treating stomach heat

by employing the usual Shi gao and such, but then to both astringe the expanding

quality of the excess heat with binding medicinals and also to employ the

controlling cycle to quash the earth excess by strengthening wood's power

through adding sour medicinals such as Wu wei zi, Wu mei, Wu bei zi (a

particular favorite of his) and others. In this case sour medicinals such as Wu

mei would not only supplement wood to control earth but would also naturally

astringe the expanding quality of the excess heat, thus helping to rein it in

while other herbs clear heat directly. In my practice I find that this method,

when appropriate, does indeed increase a formula's effectiveness significantly.

And of course liver-spleen issues are an everyday

affair.

 

It makes sense through five element logic that any sour medicinal would

strengthen wood in general (and liver yin/blood in particular) if not used

overmuch, and this is reflected in and expanded upon by the authors you mention

as practical experience with Wu mei's effects. It also makes sense to me (and

apparently Chang also) that stabilizing/binding medicinals might help to check

any kind of excess when formulated properly, including even dampness. I have

been using a whole range of sour medicinals much more in my formulas and am

finding them very helpful.

 

I for one use raw herbs all the time (and more and more) and do not plan to ever

stop, and you are part of the reason for that. Thank you for that, and thank you

for citing the article.

Joseph Garner

 

Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001 wrote: Some

people on this list will know that I have had a several decades'

interest in Wu Mei (Fructus Mume) and that I believe that standard

contemporary descriptions on its functions and indications do not do

this medicinal justice. As an example of this belief, in issue #11,

2007 of the Zhong Yi Za Zhi (Journal of ), there's a

little article on pages 1051-1052 on Liu Hong-si's experiences using

Wu Mei. Liu Hong-si was a Qing dynasty practitioner and author of Yi

Men Ba Fa (Eight Methods for Practicing Medicine). Liu believed that

Wu Mei is able to both supplement and emolliate or soften the liver.

According to Wiseman and Feng in their PD of CM, " emolliating the

liver " is synonymous with nourishing the liver, and, as we know, this

is synonymous with nourishing or supplementing liver blood. Wiseman

and Feng go on to say that " emolliating the liver is the standard

method of supplementing the liver. " Liu seems to base this opinion on

Zhang Zhong-jing who supposedly said that, when treating liver

diseases, " to supplement use sour " tasting medicinals, and Wu Mei is

sour. Liu also quotes another book which says that " Wu Mei engenders

the blood. " However, Liu seems to also believe that Wu Mei treats

liver qi depression and binding at the same time as it emolliates the

liver since he talks about it treating the various manifestations of a

liver-spleen disharmony (i.e., the liver checking or controlling the

spleen). He also says, that, " [When] the liver qi acts violently, use

Wu Mei's sour restraining to restrict this. "

 

Anyone care to comment?

 

Bob

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

I have found the same regarding Wu Mei. I know it is used for parasites but

I find it to be a very effective liver-Spleen tonic. I've had one nagging

question which is the relationship between TCM Wu Mei and Japanese Umeboshi

Plum which as you know is widely used by the Japanese as the " king of

alkalinizers " and as such as a virtual panacea. In that fermented form it is

salted so it is sour, sweet and salty -- expanding the effect of it to the

kidneys, I presume.

 

Michael Tierra

www.planetherbs.com

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Joseph Garner

Wednesday, February 06, 2008 9:25 PM

 

Re: Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

 

 

 

Bob,

I appreciate you bringing this up because I too have an affinity for this

medicinal. I have sensed that it has much more to offer than it is generally

given credit for but have not particularly followed up with study. Yet

anyway.

 

However, last June I attended Jimmy Chang's advanced prescriptionology

course in Oakland. He talked about ways to turn a formula appropriate for a

diagnosis from a " pretty good " to a " wow. " As an example, he spoke about

treating stomach heat by employing the usual Shi gao and such, but then to

both astringe the expanding quality of the excess heat with binding

medicinals and also to employ the controlling cycle to quash the earth

excess by strengthening wood's power through adding sour medicinals such as

Wu wei zi, Wu mei, Wu bei zi (a particular favorite of his) and others. In

this case sour medicinals such as Wu mei would not only supplement wood to

control earth but would also naturally astringe the expanding quality of the

excess heat, thus helping to rein it in while other herbs clear heat

directly. In my practice I find that this method, when appropriate, does

indeed increase a formula's effectiveness significantly. And of course

liver-spleen issues are an everyday

affair.

 

It makes sense through five element logic that any sour medicinal would

strengthen wood in general (and liver yin/blood in particular) if not used

overmuch, and this is reflected in and expanded upon by the authors you

mention as practical experience with Wu mei's effects. It also makes sense

to me (and apparently Chang also) that stabilizing/binding medicinals might

help to check any kind of excess when formulated properly, including even

dampness. I have been using a whole range of sour medicinals much more in my

formulas and am finding them very helpful.

 

I for one use raw herbs all the time (and more and more) and do not plan to

ever stop, and you are part of the reason for that. Thank you for that, and

thank you for citing the article.

Joseph Garner

 

Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001@ <pemachophel2001%40> >

wrote: Some people on this list will know that I have had a several decades'

interest in Wu Mei (Fructus Mume) and that I believe that standard

contemporary descriptions on its functions and indications do not do

this medicinal justice. As an example of this belief, in issue #11,

2007 of the Zhong Yi Za Zhi (Journal of ), there's a

little article on pages 1051-1052 on Liu Hong-si's experiences using

Wu Mei. Liu Hong-si was a Qing dynasty practitioner and author of Yi

Men Ba Fa (Eight Methods for Practicing Medicine). Liu believed that

Wu Mei is able to both supplement and emolliate or soften the liver.

According to Wiseman and Feng in their PD of CM, " emolliating the

liver " is synonymous with nourishing the liver, and, as we know, this

is synonymous with nourishing or supplementing liver blood. Wiseman

and Feng go on to say that " emolliating the liver is the standard

method of supplementing the liver. " Liu seems to base this opinion on

Zhang Zhong-jing who supposedly said that, when treating liver

diseases, " to supplement use sour " tasting medicinals, and Wu Mei is

sour. Liu also quotes another book which says that " Wu Mei engenders

the blood. " However, Liu seems to also believe that Wu Mei treats

liver qi depression and binding at the same time as it emolliates the

liver since he talks about it treating the various manifestations of a

liver-spleen disharmony (i.e., the liver checking or controlling the

spleen). He also says, that, " [When] the liver qi acts violently, use

Wu Mei's sour restraining to restrict this. "

 

Anyone care to comment?

 

Bob

 

 

 

 

 

 

Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Search.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Michael,

 

Japanese umeboshi is not just Wu Mei and salt. It also contains red

Perilla (chiso) leaves. Further, you take some of the juice from

already made umeboshi and add that to a current batch that is

" ripening. " So I don't think we can say that Chinese Wu Mei and

Japanese umeboshi have the same natures, flavors, or functions. I

agree that it would be interesting to see a Japanese description of

umeboshi written as if it were a Chinese med.

[Guest guest]

I'm not a classicist and enjoy musing on different aspects of TCM and how it

relates to other systems, cultures etc. So ---

 

Wu Mei is described as an unripe fruit. One of the things that's interesting

is that there seems to be a tradition of eating a few unripe' plums in the

spring in Greece and perhaps other Mediterranean countries. Something about

it preparing the GI tract for the seasonal diet change (are we still

changing our diets seasonally or eating foods imported from all over the

world?) summer, etc.

 

Umeboshi is a fermented food which would add the other dimension to TCM

which is that the sour taste is quintessentially what fermented foods are

(shen Qui for instance). So the Japanese custom of fermented ume with salt

and shiso seems to make it a more 'user friendly' version of the Chinese Wu

Mei.

 

Then comparing usage and function between the different cultures -- both

would use Wu mei for GI problems, including diarrhea, thirst and so forth.

The alkalinizing properties I think is mainly how it treats parasites i.e.

creates an unfavorable (more alkaline) biochemical condition in the

intestines.

 

I think unripe fruit is more acidic meaning that it causes a reverse

biochemical reaction -- stimulating alkalinity. The salt fermentation is a

brilliant further use by the Japanese to 'attract' the acids and then

neutralize them with salt.

 

Michael

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Bob Flaws

Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:58 AM

 

Re: Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

 

 

 

Michael,

 

Japanese umeboshi is not just Wu Mei and salt. It also contains red

Perilla (chiso) leaves. Further, you take some of the juice from

already made umeboshi and add that to a current batch that is

" ripening. " So I don't think we can say that Chinese Wu Mei and

Japanese umeboshi have the same natures, flavors, or functions. I

agree that it would be interesting to see a Japanese description of

umeboshi written as if it were a Chinese med.

 

 

 

 

 

_____

 

<< ella for Spam Control >> has removed 5187 Spam messages and set aside

3216 Newsletters for me

You can use it too - and it's FREE! www.ellaforspam.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

what about We Mei's purported astringency? -- this seems opposite from the

described emolliate (moisten or lubricate) function as well as its ability

to treat 'binding' -- perhaps there's a different TCM understanding of that

term. MT

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of

Wednesday, February 06, 2008 7:18 PM

 

RE: Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

 

 

 

Bob,

 

Thanks for bringing up this medicinal; I also in the past years have had an

affinity towards it. (I think it suits CO quite well).

 

Consequently, apart from its Lung usages, I have routinely used wu mei to

supplement Liver yin and to preserve the liver (lian gan). It works quite

well. It makes perfect sense that it also treats Liver constraint in a

similar fashion as bai shao. I use it this manner also. I actually thought

this was a common idea until I checked Bensky. Although not in Bensky it is

well documented in Chinese literature.

 

-

 

_____

 

@ <%40>

 

[@ <%40>

] On Behalf Of Bob Flaws

Wednesday, February 06, 2008 2:40 PM

@ <%40>

 

Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

 

Some people on this list will know that I have had a several decades'

interest in Wu Mei (Fructus Mume) and that I believe that standard

contemporary descriptions on its functions and indications do not do

this medicinal justice. As an example of this belief, in issue #11,

2007 of the Zhong Yi Za Zhi (Journal of ), there's a

little article on pages 1051-1052 on Liu Hong-si's experiences using

Wu Mei. Liu Hong-si was a Qing dynasty practitioner and author of Yi

Men Ba Fa (Eight Methods for Practicing Medicine). Liu believed that

Wu Mei is able to both supplement and emolliate or soften the liver.

According to Wiseman and Feng in their PD of CM, " emolliating the

liver " is synonymous with nourishing the liver, and, as we know, this

is synonymous with nourishing or supplementing liver blood. Wiseman

and Feng go on to say that " emolliating the liver is the standard

method of supplementing the liver. " Liu seems to base this opinion on

Zhang Zhong-jing who supposedly said that, when treating liver

diseases, " to supplement use sour " tasting medicinals, and Wu Mei is

sour. Liu also quotes another book which says that " Wu Mei engenders

the blood. " However, Liu seems to also believe that Wu Mei treats

liver qi depression and binding at the same time as it emolliates the

liver since he talks about it treating the various manifestations of a

liver-spleen disharmony (i.e., the liver checking or controlling the

spleen). He also says, that, " [When] the liver qi acts violently, use

Wu Mei's sour restraining to restrict this. "

 

Anyone care to comment?

 

Bob

 

 

[Guest guest]

Michael,

I've enjoyed your two emails on Wu mei. I wonder if Wu mei relates in its

actions to the astringent herbs in the Ayurvedic formula Triphala, which , as I

understand it, act to stimulate peristalsis while holding in " spleen " qi, thus

acting to simultaneously rid the digestive tract of toxins while actually

increasing digestive energy--a neat trick. Wu mei wan is, according to the Shang

Han Lun, the quintessential formula for chronic diarrhea, and that fits in with

Wu mei's astringent effects on fluids/feces as well as its possible effect of

conserving leaky digestive qi.

 

Two things about umeboshi: (1) as a fermented food, it should contain more

enzymes than the non-fermented variety, thus relieving the pancreas' duties

somewhat (the pancreas being, to me, the real digestive player in the Chinese

spleen concept); and (2) umeboshi is more than salty fermented Wu mei--it is Wu

mei plus Zi su ye (perilla leaf) fermented in brine. The Zi su ye brings another

dimension of digestive effects as well as a simultaneous downbearing and

upbearing energy, thus helping to regulate the qi mechanism of the alimentary

canal. So umeboshi is actually a formula.

Joseph Garner

 

Michael Tierra <mtierra wrote:

I'm not a classicist and enjoy musing on different aspects of TCM and how it

relates to other systems, cultures etc. So ---

 

Wu Mei is described as an unripe fruit. One of the things that's interesting

is that there seems to be a tradition of eating a few unripe' plums in the

spring in Greece and perhaps other Mediterranean countries. Something about

it preparing the GI tract for the seasonal diet change (are we still

changing our diets seasonally or eating foods imported from all over the

world?) summer, etc.

 

Umeboshi is a fermented food which would add the other dimension to TCM

which is that the sour taste is quintessentially what fermented foods are

(shen Qui for instance). So the Japanese custom of fermented ume with salt

and shiso seems to make it a more 'user friendly' version of the Chinese Wu

Mei.

 

Then comparing usage and function between the different cultures -- both

would use Wu mei for GI problems, including diarrhea, thirst and so forth.

The alkalinizing properties I think is mainly how it treats parasites i.e.

creates an unfavorable (more alkaline) biochemical condition in the

intestines.

 

I think unripe fruit is more acidic meaning that it causes a reverse

biochemical reaction -- stimulating alkalinity. The salt fermentation is a

brilliant further use by the Japanese to 'attract' the acids and then

neutralize them with salt.

 

Michael

 

_____

 

On Behalf Of Bob Flaws

Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:58 AM

Re: Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

 

Michael,

 

Japanese umeboshi is not just Wu Mei and salt. It also contains red

Perilla (chiso) leaves. Further, you take some of the juice from

already made umeboshi and add that to a current batch that is

" ripening. " So I don't think we can say that Chinese Wu Mei and

Japanese umeboshi have the same natures, flavors, or functions. I

agree that it would be interesting to see a Japanese description of

umeboshi written as if it were a Chinese med.

 

_____

 

<< ella for Spam Control >> has removed 5187 Spam messages and set aside

3216 Newsletters for me

You can use it too - and it's FREE! www.ellaforspam.com

 

[Guest guest]

Michael,

Consider, that Bai shao is also considered somewhat astringent and is the main

liver emolliater, a la Jason's post below. Astringent herbs such as Wu wei zi

are famed for their ability to hold in and thus conserve qi as well as fluids,

thus Wu wei zi's use in formulas for chronic cough, for example. In the liver's

case, a qi-astringing effect would not only help strengthen a weak liver but

would restrain one running out of control. Either way, this could help to

accomplish soothing the liver by restoring it to balance. And Wu mei and various

other astringent herbs (Wu wei zi and Shan zhu yu spring to mind) are

dark-colored juicy fruity things that should thus help build blood, as in liver

blood, considering that they have a liver tropism.

 

My guess is that the liver qi depression and binding Bob's source refers to

amounts to a perhaps relatively severe form of liver qi stagnation, and of

course the astringent Bai shao is commonly used in formula to help treat that.

I'll also say that anything that could help balance an organ could help it

recover from any dysfunction when used appropriately. I will defer to Bob,

though, on the meaning of " binding " here if it is essentially different from

what I have said.

 

In any case, Wu mei is just plain cool, man.

Joseph Garner

 

Michael Tierra <mtierra wrote:

what about We Mei's purported astringency? -- this seems opposite from the

described emolliate (moisten or lubricate) function as well as its ability

to treat 'binding' -- perhaps there's a different TCM understanding of that

term. MT

 

_____

 

On Behalf Of

Wednesday, February 06, 2008 7:18 PM

RE: Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

 

Bob,

 

Thanks for bringing up this medicinal; I also in the past years have had an

affinity towards it. (I think it suits CO quite well).

 

Consequently, apart from its Lung usages, I have routinely used wu mei to

supplement Liver yin and to preserve the liver (lian gan). It works quite

well. It makes perfect sense that it also treats Liver constraint in a

similar fashion as bai shao. I use it this manner also. I actually thought

this was a common idea until I checked Bensky. Although not in Bensky it is

well documented in Chinese literature.

 

-

 

_____

 

@ <%40>

[@ <%40>

] On Behalf Of Bob Flaws

Wednesday, February 06, 2008 2:40 PM

@ <%40>

Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

 

Some people on this list will know that I have had a several decades'

interest in Wu Mei (Fructus Mume) and that I believe that standard

contemporary descriptions on its functions and indications do not do

this medicinal justice. As an example of this belief, in issue #11,

2007 of the Zhong Yi Za Zhi (Journal of ), there's a

little article on pages 1051-1052 on Liu Hong-si's experiences using

Wu Mei. Liu Hong-si was a Qing dynasty practitioner and author of Yi

Men Ba Fa (Eight Methods for Practicing Medicine). Liu believed that

Wu Mei is able to both supplement and emolliate or soften the liver.

According to Wiseman and Feng in their PD of CM, " emolliating the

liver " is synonymous with nourishing the liver, and, as we know, this

is synonymous with nourishing or supplementing liver blood. Wiseman

and Feng go on to say that " emolliating the liver is the standard

method of supplementing the liver. " Liu seems to base this opinion on

Zhang Zhong-jing who supposedly said that, when treating liver

diseases, " to supplement use sour " tasting medicinals, and Wu Mei is

sour. Liu also quotes another book which says that " Wu Mei engenders

the blood. " However, Liu seems to also believe that Wu Mei treats

liver qi depression and binding at the same time as it emolliates the

liver since he talks about it treating the various manifestations of a

liver-spleen disharmony (i.e., the liver checking or controlling the

spleen). He also says, that, " [When] the liver qi acts violently, use

Wu Mei's sour restraining to restrict this. "

 

Anyone care to comment?

 

Bob

 

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

 

I don't know much about Wu mei's relationship with the liver, but I

can say a bit about it's use in dermatology. Wu Mei is often used in

cases of chronic uriticaria due to Qi and blood xu with wind. The

astringent property helps benefit the base formula of Yu Ping Feng San

to help consolidate the exterior. Wu mei supposedly has anti- allergy

and anti-histimine effects.

 

Trevor

 

, Joseph Garner

<jhgarner_1 wrote:

>

> Michael,

> Consider, that Bai shao is also considered somewhat astringent and

is the main liver emolliater, a la Jason's post below. Astringent

herbs such as Wu wei zi are famed for their ability to hold in and

thus conserve qi as well as fluids, thus Wu wei zi's use in formulas

for chronic cough, for example. In the liver's case, a qi-astringing

effect would not only help strengthen a weak liver but would restrain

one running out of control. Either way, this could help to accomplish

soothing the liver by restoring it to balance. And Wu mei and various

other astringent herbs (Wu wei zi and Shan zhu yu spring to mind) are

dark-colored juicy fruity things that should thus help build blood, as

in liver blood, considering that they have a liver tropism.

>

> My guess is that the liver qi depression and binding Bob's source

refers to amounts to a perhaps relatively severe form of liver qi

stagnation, and of course the astringent Bai shao is commonly used in

formula to help treat that. I'll also say that anything that could

help balance an organ could help it recover from any dysfunction when

used appropriately. I will defer to Bob, though, on the meaning of

" binding " here if it is essentially different from what I have said.

>

> In any case, Wu mei is just plain cool, man.

> Joseph Garner

>

> Michael Tierra <mtierra wrote:

what about We Mei's purported astringency? -- this seems opposite from the

> described emolliate (moisten or lubricate) function as well as its

ability

> to treat 'binding' -- perhaps there's a different TCM understanding

of that

> term. MT

>

[Guest guest]

Good information, as always. When I looked for Liu Hong Si, I found his name is

actually Liu Hong En (¶÷ en and ˼ si look similar). I appreciate your research

and think there are many people on this forum who are studying Chinese (I am at

the intermediate level) who would find it useful if those of you who can would

include the Chinese characters, where appropriate, when posting to the forum.

Also, if you refer to an article or text and it is available online, please be

so kind as to include links.

For example, Áõºè¶÷ÓÃÎÚ÷

Thanks

 

David Klatt

 

 

[Guest guest]

I don't think either Wu mei nor Wu wei zi are astringent -- they are

classified in Bensky and Gamble as herbs that stabilize and bind and that is

different from the term 'astringent'. Even a western demulcent herb like

slippery elm (ulmus fulva) has properties that are demulcent (lubricating),

astringent and also blood moving. So its not necessarily antithetical to

have an herb that is both astringent and lubricating. The term emollient is

different because this suggests innate moistening of an organ -- helping the

organ to retain its yin moistness. So using wu mei to stop lung leakage

suggests a very different property than drying the lung, which might be

suggested by the term astringent. Michael

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Joseph Garner

Thursday, February 07, 2008 8:14 PM

 

RE: Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

 

 

 

Michael,

Consider, that Bai shao is also considered somewhat astringent and is the

main liver emolliater, a la Jason's post below. Astringent herbs such as Wu

wei zi are famed for their ability to hold in and thus conserve qi as well

as fluids, thus Wu wei zi's use in formulas for chronic cough, for example.

In the liver's case, a qi-astringing effect would not only help strengthen a

weak liver but would restrain one running out of control. Either way, this

could help to accomplish soothing the liver by restoring it to balance. And

Wu mei and various other astringent herbs (Wu wei zi and Shan zhu yu spring

to mind) are dark-colored juicy fruity things that should thus help build

blood, as in liver blood, considering that they have a liver tropism.

 

My guess is that the liver qi depression and binding Bob's source refers to

amounts to a perhaps relatively severe form of liver qi stagnation, and of

course the astringent Bai shao is commonly used in formula to help treat

that. I'll also say that anything that could help balance an organ could

help it recover from any dysfunction when used appropriately. I will defer

to Bob, though, on the meaning of " binding " here if it is essentially

different from what I have said.

 

In any case, Wu mei is just plain cool, man.

Joseph Garner

 

Michael Tierra <mtierra@planetherbs <mtierra%40planetherbs.com> .com>

wrote: what about We Mei's purported astringency? -- this seems opposite

from the

described emolliate (moisten or lubricate) function as well as its ability

to treat 'binding' -- perhaps there's a different TCM understanding of that

term. MT

 

_____

 

@ <%40>

 

[@ <%40>

] On Behalf Of

Wednesday, February 06, 2008 7:18 PM

@ <%40>

 

RE: Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

 

Bob,

 

Thanks for bringing up this medicinal; I also in the past years have had an

affinity towards it. (I think it suits CO quite well).

 

Consequently, apart from its Lung usages, I have routinely used wu mei to

supplement Liver yin and to preserve the liver (lian gan). It works quite

well. It makes perfect sense that it also treats Liver constraint in a

similar fashion as bai shao. I use it this manner also. I actually thought

this was a common idea until I checked Bensky. Although not in Bensky it is

well documented in Chinese literature.

 

-

 

_____

 

@ <%40>

 

[@ <%40>

] On Behalf Of Bob Flaws

Wednesday, February 06, 2008 2:40 PM

@ <%40>

 

Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

 

Some people on this list will know that I have had a several decades'

interest in Wu Mei (Fructus Mume) and that I believe that standard

contemporary descriptions on its functions and indications do not do

this medicinal justice. As an example of this belief, in issue #11,

2007 of the Zhong Yi Za Zhi (Journal of ), there's a

little article on pages 1051-1052 on Liu Hong-si's experiences using

Wu Mei. Liu Hong-si was a Qing dynasty practitioner and author of Yi

Men Ba Fa (Eight Methods for Practicing Medicine). Liu believed that

Wu Mei is able to both supplement and emolliate or soften the liver.

According to Wiseman and Feng in their PD of CM, " emolliating the

liver " is synonymous with nourishing the liver, and, as we know, this

is synonymous with nourishing or supplementing liver blood. Wiseman

and Feng go on to say that " emolliating the liver is the standard

method of supplementing the liver. " Liu seems to base this opinion on

Zhang Zhong-jing who supposedly said that, when treating liver

diseases, " to supplement use sour " tasting medicinals, and Wu Mei is

sour. Liu also quotes another book which says that " Wu Mei engenders

the blood. " However, Liu seems to also believe that Wu Mei treats

liver qi depression and binding at the same time as it emolliates the

liver since he talks about it treating the various manifestations of a

liver-spleen disharmony (i.e., the liver checking or controlling the

spleen). He also says, that, " [When] the liver qi acts violently, use

Wu Mei's sour restraining to restrict this. "

 

Anyone care to comment?

 

Bob

 

 

[Guest guest]

I keep coming back to thinking about umeboshi plum, a near panacea in

Japanese folk medicine, considered the king of alkalinizers, by the way a

very effective and simple treatment for GERD. Yes different from the Chinese

wu mei but could these all share the basic ability to alter gut chemistry,

i.e. neutralize acidity therefore treat parasites and acidity (toxic heat)

that might give rise to urticaria. I also continue to question the basic use

of the term 'astringent' as we apply it to a description of wu mei and wu

wei. Michael

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Trevor Erikson

Thursday, February 07, 2008 11:14 PM

 

Re: Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

 

 

 

Hi all,

 

I don't know much about Wu mei's relationship with the liver, but I

can say a bit about it's use in dermatology. Wu Mei is often used in

cases of chronic uriticaria due to Qi and blood xu with wind. The

astringent property helps benefit the base formula of Yu Ping Feng San

to help consolidate the exterior. Wu mei supposedly has anti- allergy

and anti-histimine effects.

 

Trevor

 

@ <%40>

, Joseph Garner

<jhgarner_1 wrote:

>

> Michael,

> Consider, that Bai shao is also considered somewhat astringent and

is the main liver emolliater, a la Jason's post below. Astringent

herbs such as Wu wei zi are famed for their ability to hold in and

thus conserve qi as well as fluids, thus Wu wei zi's use in formulas

for chronic cough, for example. In the liver's case, a qi-astringing

effect would not only help strengthen a weak liver but would restrain

one running out of control. Either way, this could help to accomplish

soothing the liver by restoring it to balance. And Wu mei and various

other astringent herbs (Wu wei zi and Shan zhu yu spring to mind) are

dark-colored juicy fruity things that should thus help build blood, as

in liver blood, considering that they have a liver tropism.

>

> My guess is that the liver qi depression and binding Bob's source

refers to amounts to a perhaps relatively severe form of liver qi

stagnation, and of course the astringent Bai shao is commonly used in

formula to help treat that. I'll also say that anything that could

help balance an organ could help it recover from any dysfunction when

used appropriately. I will defer to Bob, though, on the meaning of

" binding " here if it is essentially different from what I have said.

>

> In any case, Wu mei is just plain cool, man.

> Joseph Garner

>

> Michael Tierra <mtierra wrote:

what about We Mei's purported astringency? -- this seems opposite from the

> described emolliate (moisten or lubricate) function as well as its

ability

> to treat 'binding' -- perhaps there's a different TCM understanding

of that

> term. MT

>

 

 

 

 

_____

 

<< ella for Spam Control >> has removed 5194 Spam messages and set aside

3217 Newsletters for me

You can use it too - and it's FREE! www.ellaforspam.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Michael,

 

" Stabilize & bind " is Benksy's translation for gu se, secure and

astringe. Again, the importance of terminology and Chinese language

studies. Wu Mei is most definitely classified in most contemporary

materia medica as a securing and astringing med.

 

Bob

 

, " Michael Tierra "

<mtierra wrote:

>

> I don't think either Wu mei nor Wu wei zi are astringent -- they are

> classified in Bensky and Gamble as herbs that stabilize and bind and

that is

> different from the term 'astringent'. Even a western demulcent herb like

> slippery elm (ulmus fulva) has properties that are demulcent

(lubricating),

> astringent and also blood moving. So its not necessarily antithetical to

> have an herb that is both astringent and lubricating. The term

emollient is

> different because this suggests innate moistening of an organ --

helping the

> organ to retain its yin moistness. So using wu mei to stop lung leakage

> suggests a very different property than drying the lung, which might be

> suggested by the term astringent. Michael

>

> _____

>

>

> On Behalf Of Joseph Garner

> Thursday, February 07, 2008 8:14 PM

>

> RE: Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

>

>

>

> Michael,

> Consider, that Bai shao is also considered somewhat astringent and

is the

> main liver emolliater, a la Jason's post below. Astringent herbs

such as Wu

> wei zi are famed for their ability to hold in and thus conserve qi

as well

> as fluids, thus Wu wei zi's use in formulas for chronic cough, for

example.

> In the liver's case, a qi-astringing effect would not only help

strengthen a

> weak liver but would restrain one running out of control. Either

way, this

> could help to accomplish soothing the liver by restoring it to

balance. And

> Wu mei and various other astringent herbs (Wu wei zi and Shan zhu yu

spring

> to mind) are dark-colored juicy fruity things that should thus help

build

> blood, as in liver blood, considering that they have a liver tropism.

>

> My guess is that the liver qi depression and binding Bob's source

refers to

> amounts to a perhaps relatively severe form of liver qi stagnation,

and of

> course the astringent Bai shao is commonly used in formula to help treat

> that. I'll also say that anything that could help balance an organ could

> help it recover from any dysfunction when used appropriately. I will

defer

> to Bob, though, on the meaning of " binding " here if it is essentially

> different from what I have said.

>

> In any case, Wu mei is just plain cool, man.

> Joseph Garner

>

> Michael Tierra <mtierra@planetherbs

<mtierra%40planetherbs.com> .com>

> wrote: what about We Mei's purported astringency? -- this seems opposite

> from the

> described emolliate (moisten or lubricate) function as well as its

ability

> to treat 'binding' -- perhaps there's a different TCM understanding

of that

> term. MT

>

> _____

>

> @ <%40>

>

> [@

<%40>

> ] On Behalf Of

> Wednesday, February 06, 2008 7:18 PM

> @ <%40>

>

> RE: Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

>

> Bob,

>

> Thanks for bringing up this medicinal; I also in the past years have

had an

> affinity towards it. (I think it suits CO quite well).

>

> Consequently, apart from its Lung usages, I have routinely used wu

mei to

> supplement Liver yin and to preserve the liver (lian gan). It works

quite

> well. It makes perfect sense that it also treats Liver constraint in a

> similar fashion as bai shao. I use it this manner also. I actually

thought

> this was a common idea until I checked Bensky. Although not in

Bensky it is

> well documented in Chinese literature.

>

> -

>

> _____

>

> @ <%40>

>

> [@

<%40>

> ] On Behalf Of Bob Flaws

> Wednesday, February 06, 2008 2:40 PM

> @ <%40>

>

> Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

>

> Some people on this list will know that I have had a several decades'

> interest in Wu Mei (Fructus Mume) and that I believe that standard

> contemporary descriptions on its functions and indications do not do

> this medicinal justice. As an example of this belief, in issue #11,

> 2007 of the Zhong Yi Za Zhi (Journal of ), there's a

> little article on pages 1051-1052 on Liu Hong-si's experiences using

> Wu Mei. Liu Hong-si was a Qing dynasty practitioner and author of Yi

> Men Ba Fa (Eight Methods for Practicing Medicine). Liu believed that

> Wu Mei is able to both supplement and emolliate or soften the liver.

> According to Wiseman and Feng in their PD of CM, " emolliating the

> liver " is synonymous with nourishing the liver, and, as we know, this

> is synonymous with nourishing or supplementing liver blood. Wiseman

> and Feng go on to say that " emolliating the liver is the standard

> method of supplementing the liver. " Liu seems to base this opinion on

> Zhang Zhong-jing who supposedly said that, when treating liver

> diseases, " to supplement use sour " tasting medicinals, and Wu Mei is

> sour. Liu also quotes another book which says that " Wu Mei engenders

> the blood. " However, Liu seems to also believe that Wu Mei treats

> liver qi depression and binding at the same time as it emolliates the

> liver since he talks about it treating the various manifestations of a

> liver-spleen disharmony (i.e., the liver checking or controlling the

> spleen). He also says, that, " [When] the liver qi acts violently, use

> Wu Mei's sour restraining to restrict this. "

>

> Anyone care to comment?

>

> Bob

>

>

[Guest guest]

thanks for the clarification. I think my confusion might be thinking that

astringent also means 'to dry' which is definitely not meant in the context

of this herb.

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Bob Flaws

Friday, February 08, 2008 7:27 AM

 

Re: Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

 

 

 

Michael,

 

" Stabilize & bind " is Benksy's translation for gu se, secure and

astringe. Again, the importance of terminology and Chinese language

studies. Wu Mei is most definitely classified in most contemporary

materia medica as a securing and astringing med.

 

Bob

 

@ <%40>

, " Michael Tierra "

<mtierra wrote:

>

> I don't think either Wu mei nor Wu wei zi are astringent -- they are

> classified in Bensky and Gamble as herbs that stabilize and bind and

that is

> different from the term 'astringent'. Even a western demulcent herb like

> slippery elm (ulmus fulva) has properties that are demulcent

(lubricating),

> astringent and also blood moving. So its not necessarily antithetical to

> have an herb that is both astringent and lubricating. The term

emollient is

> different because this suggests innate moistening of an organ --

helping the

> organ to retain its yin moistness. So using wu mei to stop lung leakage

> suggests a very different property than drying the lung, which might be

> suggested by the term astringent. Michael

>

> _____

>

> @ <%40>

 

> [@ <%40>

] On Behalf Of Joseph Garner

> Thursday, February 07, 2008 8:14 PM

> @ <%40>

 

> RE: Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

>

>

>

> Michael,

> Consider, that Bai shao is also considered somewhat astringent and

is the

> main liver emolliater, a la Jason's post below. Astringent herbs

such as Wu

> wei zi are famed for their ability to hold in and thus conserve qi

as well

> as fluids, thus Wu wei zi's use in formulas for chronic cough, for

example.

> In the liver's case, a qi-astringing effect would not only help

strengthen a

> weak liver but would restrain one running out of control. Either

way, this

> could help to accomplish soothing the liver by restoring it to

balance. And

> Wu mei and various other astringent herbs (Wu wei zi and Shan zhu yu

spring

> to mind) are dark-colored juicy fruity things that should thus help

build

> blood, as in liver blood, considering that they have a liver tropism.

>

> My guess is that the liver qi depression and binding Bob's source

refers to

> amounts to a perhaps relatively severe form of liver qi stagnation,

and of

> course the astringent Bai shao is commonly used in formula to help treat

> that. I'll also say that anything that could help balance an organ could

> help it recover from any dysfunction when used appropriately. I will

defer

> to Bob, though, on the meaning of " binding " here if it is essentially

> different from what I have said.

>

> In any case, Wu mei is just plain cool, man.

> Joseph Garner

>

> Michael Tierra <mtierra@planetherbs

<mtierra%40planetherbs.com> .com>

> wrote: what about We Mei's purported astringency? -- this seems opposite

> from the

> described emolliate (moisten or lubricate) function as well as its

ability

> to treat 'binding' -- perhaps there's a different TCM understanding

of that

> term. MT

>

> _____

>

> @ <%40>

>

> [@

<%40>

> ] On Behalf Of

> Wednesday, February 06, 2008 7:18 PM

> @ <%40>

>

> RE: Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

>

> Bob,

>

> Thanks for bringing up this medicinal; I also in the past years have

had an

> affinity towards it. (I think it suits CO quite well).

>

> Consequently, apart from its Lung usages, I have routinely used wu

mei to

> supplement Liver yin and to preserve the liver (lian gan). It works

quite

> well. It makes perfect sense that it also treats Liver constraint in a

> similar fashion as bai shao. I use it this manner also. I actually

thought

> this was a common idea until I checked Bensky. Although not in

Bensky it is

> well documented in Chinese literature.

>

> -

>

> _____

>

> @ <%40>

>

> [@

<%40>

> ] On Behalf Of Bob Flaws

> Wednesday, February 06, 2008 2:40 PM

> @ <%40>

>

> Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

>

> Some people on this list will know that I have had a several decades'

> interest in Wu Mei (Fructus Mume) and that I believe that standard

> contemporary descriptions on its functions and indications do not do

> this medicinal justice. As an example of this belief, in issue #11,

> 2007 of the Zhong Yi Za Zhi (Journal of ), there's a

> little article on pages 1051-1052 on Liu Hong-si's experiences using

> Wu Mei. Liu Hong-si was a Qing dynasty practitioner and author of Yi

> Men Ba Fa (Eight Methods for Practicing Medicine). Liu believed that

> Wu Mei is able to both supplement and emolliate or soften the liver.

> According to Wiseman and Feng in their PD of CM, " emolliating the

> liver " is synonymous with nourishing the liver, and, as we know, this

> is synonymous with nourishing or supplementing liver blood. Wiseman

> and Feng go on to say that " emolliating the liver is the standard

> method of supplementing the liver. " Liu seems to base this opinion on

> Zhang Zhong-jing who supposedly said that, when treating liver

> diseases, " to supplement use sour " tasting medicinals, and Wu Mei is

> sour. Liu also quotes another book which says that " Wu Mei engenders

> the blood. " However, Liu seems to also believe that Wu Mei treats

> liver qi depression and binding at the same time as it emolliates the

> liver since he talks about it treating the various manifestations of a

> liver-spleen disharmony (i.e., the liver checking or controlling the

> spleen). He also says, that, " [When] the liver qi acts violently, use

> Wu Mei's sour restraining to restrict this. "

>

> Anyone care to comment?

>

> Bob

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hello All,

The use of Wumei that I have learned from my pediatrics teacher is

the one of promoting stomach fluids and increasing the appetite (kai

wei), as in " Si shi wan " from Ji sheng Fang, together with Mu gua.

 

I use it like this for children with little appetite and little

tongue coating as an addition to the main formula.

 

Greetings from Anina

 

 

 

Nina Zhao-Seiler

Praxis für Traditionelle Chinesische Medizin

Wilfriedstrasse 8

CH-8032 Zürich

Tel: +41 44 251 1331

Fax: +41 43 243 6990

ninaseiler

www.tcmherbs.org

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Oops! My link didn't work the first time. I'll try again.

刘鸿æ©ç " ¨ä¹Œæ¢…

<http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_4e2dcf2201007o6v.html>

<http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_4e2dcf2201007o6v.html>

David Klatt

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Its sounding more an more like Japanese umeboshi plum to me. Anyone its a

great product and I often think how great it would be if TCM practitioners

could think more freely and see the possibilities of how other herbs and

products can fit into such a wonderful paradigm. Michael

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Nina Zhao-Seiler

Friday, February 08, 2008 9:35 AM

 

Re: Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

 

 

 

Hello All,

The use of Wumei that I have learned from my pediatrics teacher is

the one of promoting stomach fluids and increasing the appetite (kai

wei), as in " Si shi wan " from Ji sheng Fang, together with Mu gua.

 

I use it like this for children with little appetite and little

tongue coating as an addition to the main formula.

 

Greetings from Anina

 

Nina Zhao-Seiler

Praxis für Traditionelle Chinesische Medizin

Wilfriedstrasse 8

CH-8032 Zürich

Tel: +41 44 251 1331

Fax: +41 43 243 6990

ninaseiler (AT) gmx (DOT) <ninaseiler%40gmx.ch> ch

www.tcmherbs.org