RE: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

[Guest guest]

Michael and group,

 

 

 

Michael¡¯s comment brings up something that has been on my mind recently.

From a functional medicine perspective we see that the majority of

situations where we see ¡°excessive stomach acid¡± are actually from

insufficiency of the acid, or inability to make HCL. This is why antacids

are problematic and actually harmful, and why HCL is so often used as a

treatment.

 

 

 

Consequently giving Chinese medicinals to inhibit stomach acid is IMO no

different than mainstream Western medicine thought and IMO contraindicated

unless there is severe symptomology. For example if there is a pressing

situation, one may inhibit stomach acid to prevent further damage, for a

short amount of time. Of course inhibiting acid brings about a quick result,

but it does not address the root problem. The root should be sought out.

(See Dr. Zhang¡¯s comment below)

 

 

 

First, to apply this more Western style of thinking, one should know what

medicinals (such as wu mei) are doing to the stomach acid as well as the

proper strategy for the individual. Michael mentions that wu mei

¡°neutralizes acidity¡± ¨C I assume Michael means reduce stomach acid.

Although my Chinese sources say that it is contraindicated for excessive

stomach acid (also see below). Furthermore, Chen Ze-Lin (³ÂÔóÁØ) says ¡°add

wu mei, and mu gua for gastric acid insufficiency.¡± Hu Jian-Hua (ºú½¨»ª)

agrees and says, ¡°If there is deficient or reduced stomach acid select shan

zha, wu mei, and mu gua to assist the acid.¡± Therefore does anyone have a

source for that states that wu mei neutralizes (or reduces) stomach acid

(which is increasing pH ¨C making it more alkaline)? Otherwise I have a hard

time believing that it alkalizes the Stomach environment.

 

 

 

There are other medicinals that are said to decrease stomach acid, such as

(duan) wa leng zi, wu zei gu etc. ¨C Again it is my opinion that these

should only be reserved for certain situations. I would say it is not a

good idea to use these in general ¡°hyperacid¡± conditions.

 

 

 

Zhang Geng-Mei (ÕŸþ÷) also makes a general comment about sour type

medicinals, in that they only temporarily calm things down and are unable to

¡°generate acid¡± with no hope of recovery. This supports the functional

medicine idea that decreasing stomach acid is not the correct strategy in

the majority of cases. Conversely one usually needs to generate acid (even

in excessive acid ulcers), as Dr. Zhang states.

 

 

 

Of course I believe that one should always treat the pattern and not the

Western medicine concepts. However, it seems to be common practice to add in

¡°acid¡± herbs (either reducing or supplementing) for conditions such as

acid regurgitation. Therefore the question is, what are these ¡°acid¡±

medicinals doing to the stomach acid, meaning are they reducing,

supplementing, or both???

 

 

 

Finally, to throw a wrinkle into the thinking, the commonly used wa leng zi

and wu zei gu, are said to inhibit and promote stomach acid, depending on

the author. Maybe they do both. Maybe some are attributes are merely from

clinical experience where people see that these medicinals help Stomach

¡°acid¡± problems, where the mechanism in incorrectly noted. Consequently,

Zhang Geng-Mei (ÕŸþ÷) says these two medicinals treat the branch as well

as the root and will use them in any situation.

 

 

 

Does anyone have any citations of research demonstrating the affects of

these (or other) herbs on the stomach acid. Maybe some of these have a

some-what adaptogenic nature.

 

 

 

Comments?

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Michael Tierra

Friday, February 08, 2008 3:21 AM

 

RE: Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

 

 

 

I keep coming back to thinking about umeboshi plum, a near panacea in

Japanese folk medicine, considered the king of alkalinizers, by the way a

very effective and simple treatment for GERD. Yes different from the Chinese

wu mei but could these all share the basic ability to alter gut chemistry,

i.e. neutralize acidity therefore treat parasites and acidity (toxic heat)

that might give rise to urticaria. I also continue to question the basic use

of the term 'astringent' as we apply it to a description of wu mei and wu

wei. Michael

 

_____

 

@ <%40>

 

[@ <%40>

] On Behalf Of Trevor Erikson

Thursday, February 07, 2008 11:14 PM

@ <%40>

 

Re: Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

 

Hi all,

 

I don't know much about Wu mei's relationship with the liver, but I

can say a bit about it's use in dermatology. Wu Mei is often used in

cases of chronic uriticaria due to Qi and blood xu with wind. The

astringent property helps benefit the base formula of Yu Ping Feng San

to help consolidate the exterior. Wu mei supposedly has anti- allergy

and anti-histimine effects.

 

Trevor

 

@ <%40>

, Joseph Garner

<jhgarner_1 wrote:

>

> Michael,

> Consider, that Bai shao is also considered somewhat astringent and

is the main liver emolliater, a la Jason's post below. Astringent

herbs such as Wu wei zi are famed for their ability to hold in and

thus conserve qi as well as fluids, thus Wu wei zi's use in formulas

for chronic cough, for example. In the liver's case, a qi-astringing

effect would not only help strengthen a weak liver but would restrain

one running out of control. Either way, this could help to accomplish

soothing the liver by restoring it to balance. And Wu mei and various

other astringent herbs (Wu wei zi and Shan zhu yu spring to mind) are

dark-colored juicy fruity things that should thus help build blood, as

in liver blood, considering that they have a liver tropism.

>

> My guess is that the liver qi depression and binding Bob's source

refers to amounts to a perhaps relatively severe form of liver qi

stagnation, and of course the astringent Bai shao is commonly used in

formula to help treat that. I'll also say that anything that could

help balance an organ could help it recover from any dysfunction when

used appropriately. I will defer to Bob, though, on the meaning of

" binding " here if it is essentially different from what I have said.

>

> In any case, Wu mei is just plain cool, man.

> Joseph Garner

>

> Michael Tierra <mtierra wrote:

what about We Mei's purported astringency? -- this seems opposite from the

> described emolliate (moisten or lubricate) function as well as its

ability

> to treat 'binding' -- perhaps there's a different TCM understanding

of that

> term. MT

>

 

_____

 

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[Guest guest]

2008/2/8 :

 

> Finally, to throw a wrinkle into the thinking, the commonly used wa leng

> zi

> and wu zei gu, are said to inhibit and promote stomach acid, depending on

> the author. Maybe they do both.

>

 

 

 

 

 

I think of these shell (and bone) herbs as working with the same mechanisms

of over-the-counter heartburn remedies in that they're predominately calcium

carbonate which apparently neutralizes stomach acid from a Western

perspective. Brand names such as Tums and Rolaids are essentially calcium

carbonate. Wa leng zi and wu zei gu (hai piao xiao) both contain significant

amounts of calcium carbonate. In fact, there's a mine in the San Bernardino

mountains of California where they pull up the remains of millions of years

of shells that fell to the bottom of an ancient ocean. Once mined, the

calcium carbonate is processed for inclusion in antacids and other medicinal

and industrial applications.

 

> Does anyone have any citations of research demonstrating the affects of

> these (or other) herbs on the stomach acid. Maybe some of these have a

> some-what adaptogenic nature.

>

 

 

 

 

 

I think that their chemical constituents pretty much covers it, but I'd also

like to add that some physicians believe that taking antacids can cause a

rebound effect where the stomach ends up secreting more HCL to re-acidize

itself, in which case I suppose one could say that these herbs stimulate the

secretion of HCL.

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

My thinking about it is that the contents of the stomach is acid but the

lining is alkaline. The yin and yang of it is that if the acid content is

greater than the alkaline lining -- the result is GERD or ulcers. Michael

Tierra

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Al Stone

Friday, February 08, 2008 8:31 PM

 

Re: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

 

 

 

2008/2/8 <@chinesemed

<%40Chinese Medicine> icinedoc.com>:

 

> Finally, to throw a wrinkle into the thinking, the commonly used wa leng

> zi

> and wu zei gu, are said to inhibit and promote stomach acid, depending on

> the author. Maybe they do both.

>

 

I think of these shell (and bone) herbs as working with the same mechanisms

of over-the-counter heartburn remedies in that they're predominately calcium

carbonate which apparently neutralizes stomach acid from a Western

perspective. Brand names such as Tums and Rolaids are essentially calcium

carbonate. Wa leng zi and wu zei gu (hai piao xiao) both contain significant

amounts of calcium carbonate. In fact, there's a mine in the San Bernardino

mountains of California where they pull up the remains of millions of years

of shells that fell to the bottom of an ancient ocean. Once mined, the

calcium carbonate is processed for inclusion in antacids and other medicinal

and industrial applications.

 

> Does anyone have any citations of research demonstrating the affects of

> these (or other) herbs on the stomach acid. Maybe some of these have a

> some-what adaptogenic nature.

>

 

I think that their chemical constituents pretty much covers it, but I'd also

like to add that some physicians believe that taking antacids can cause a

rebound effect where the stomach ends up secreting more HCL to re-acidize

itself, in which case I suppose one could say that these herbs stimulate the

secretion of HCL.

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Michael,

Interesting. But on what do you base this idea?

Joseph Garner

 

Michael Tierra <mtierra wrote: My

thinking about it is that the contents of the stomach is acid but the

lining is alkaline. The yin and yang of it is that if the acid content is

greater than the alkaline lining -- the result is GERD or ulcers. Michael

Tierra

 

_____

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Michael,

 

 

 

I appreciate your free thinking on these issues. However, I think if you are

making claims that a medicinal (wu mei or any other) does this or that, it

should be rooted in some source somewhere. This speaks to the larger problem

that I feel is ramped in this country. This discussion aside, I think the

last thing our profession needs in free-thinking when the majority of people

barely know the basics, but that is another issue.

 

 

 

More importantly, you made the statement that wu mei neutralizes (reduces)

stomach acid. I ask again, do you have a source for this? Or maybe you could

explain how your below statement relates to wu mei and the function you

ascribe to it.

 

 

 

As it stands your below (yin and yang) statement seems physiologically

confusing and over-simplified.

 

 

 

For example, the stomach contents must be acidic to digest foods. You want a

low pH (very acidic) when you eat, pH of 1 is great! GERD USUALLY happens

from lack of stomach acid production (hypochlorhydria). This in turn creates

a relatively alkaline environment (from what it should be), and the

contents, specifically proteins, are unable to properly digest. This

environment is still acidic though. Consequently, the proteins putrefy and

ferment and in turn cause a very acid environment. This looks like your

stomach produced too much acid, but it did not. This acid rises up and

causes GERD(1). Of course not all cases of GERD are from hypochlorhydria,

some are from actually hyperchlorhydria, therefore and one must

differentiate. This yin and yang dance has many permutations.

 

 

 

Therefore, what is meant by " acid content is greater than the alkaline

lining " ???

 

 

 

One can see how taking antacids will help the condition but do little for

treating the problem. However I am having a hard time understanding how your

yin and yang model works. Could you explain?

 

 

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

References:

 

(1) Kharrazian, Datis (2005). Functional Blood Chemistry Analysis.

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Michael Tierra

Friday, February 08, 2008 10:46 PM

 

RE: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

 

 

 

My thinking about it is that the contents of the stomach is acid but the

lining is alkaline. The yin and yang of it is that if the acid content is

greater than the alkaline lining -- the result is GERD or ulcers. Michael

Tierra

 

_____

 

@ <%40>

 

[@ <%40>

] On Behalf Of Al Stone

Friday, February 08, 2008 8:31 PM

@ <%40>

 

Re: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

 

2008/2/8 <@chinesemed

<%40Chinese Medicine> icinedoc.com>:

 

> Finally, to throw a wrinkle into the thinking, the commonly used wa leng

> zi

> and wu zei gu, are said to inhibit and promote stomach acid, depending on

> the author. Maybe they do both.

>

 

I think of these shell (and bone) herbs as working with the same mechanisms

of over-the-counter heartburn remedies in that they're predominately calcium

carbonate which apparently neutralizes stomach acid from a Western

perspective. Brand names such as Tums and Rolaids are essentially calcium

carbonate. Wa leng zi and wu zei gu (hai piao xiao) both contain significant

amounts of calcium carbonate. In fact, there's a mine in the San Bernardino

mountains of California where they pull up the remains of millions of years

of shells that fell to the bottom of an ancient ocean. Once mined, the

calcium carbonate is processed for inclusion in antacids and other medicinal

and industrial applications.

 

> Does anyone have any citations of research demonstrating the affects of

> these (or other) herbs on the stomach acid. Maybe some of these have a

> some-what adaptogenic nature.

>

 

I think that their chemical constituents pretty much covers it, but I'd also

like to add that some physicians believe that taking antacids can cause a

rebound effect where the stomach ends up secreting more HCL to re-acidize

itself, in which case I suppose one could say that these herbs stimulate the

secretion of HCL.

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.