Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

February 9, 2008

Hi Jason,

I know you are correct in explaining your understanding of stomach acid and

digestion. Could you please take a moment and explain how we can differentiate

between hypo and hyper chlorhydria?

Thanks,

Michael

-

Saturday, February 09, 2008 9:38 AM

[sPAM] RE: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing

Medicinal

Michael,

I appreciate your free thinking on these issues. However, I think if you are

making claims that a medicinal (wu mei or any other) does this or that, it

should be rooted in some source somewhere. This speaks to the larger problem

that I feel is ramped in this country. This discussion aside, I think the

last thing our profession needs in free-thinking when the majority of people

barely know the basics, but that is another issue.

More importantly, you made the statement that wu mei neutralizes (reduces)

stomach acid. I ask again, do you have a source for this? Or maybe you could

explain how your below statement relates to wu mei and the function you

ascribe to it.

As it stands your below (yin and yang) statement seems physiologically

confusing and over-simplified.

For example, the stomach contents must be acidic to digest foods. You want a

low pH (very acidic) when you eat, pH of 1 is great! GERD USUALLY happens

from lack of stomach acid production (hypochlorhydria). This in turn creates

a relatively alkaline environment (from what it should be), and the

contents, specifically proteins, are unable to properly digest. This

environment is still acidic though. Consequently, the proteins putrefy and

ferment and in turn cause a very acid environment. This looks like your

stomach produced too much acid, but it did not. This acid rises up and

causes GERD(1). Of course not all cases of GERD are from hypochlorhydria,

some are from actually hyperchlorhydria, therefore and one must

differentiate. This yin and yang dance has many permutations.

Therefore, what is meant by " acid content is greater than the alkaline

lining " ???

One can see how taking antacids will help the condition but do little for

treating the problem. However I am having a hard time understanding how your

yin and yang model works. Could you explain?

-

References:

(1) Kharrazian, Datis (2005). Functional Blood Chemistry Analysis.

_____

On Behalf Of Michael Tierra

Friday, February 08, 2008 10:46 PM

RE: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

My thinking about it is that the contents of the stomach is acid but the

lining is alkaline. The yin and yang of it is that if the acid content is

greater than the alkaline lining -- the result is GERD or ulcers. Michael

Tierra

_____

@ <%40>

[@ <%40>

] On Behalf Of Al Stone

Friday, February 08, 2008 8:31 PM

@ <%40>

Re: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

2008/2/8 <@chinesemed

<%40Chinese Medicine> icinedoc.com>:

> Finally, to throw a wrinkle into the thinking, the commonly used wa leng

> zi

> and wu zei gu, are said to inhibit and promote stomach acid, depending on

> the author. Maybe they do both.

>

I think of these shell (and bone) herbs as working with the same mechanisms

of over-the-counter heartburn remedies in that they're predominately calcium

carbonate which apparently neutralizes stomach acid from a Western

perspective. Brand names such as Tums and Rolaids are essentially calcium

carbonate. Wa leng zi and wu zei gu (hai piao xiao) both contain significant

amounts of calcium carbonate. In fact, there's a mine in the San Bernardino

mountains of California where they pull up the remains of millions of years

of shells that fell to the bottom of an ancient ocean. Once mined, the

calcium carbonate is processed for inclusion in antacids and other medicinal

and industrial applications.

> Does anyone have any citations of research demonstrating the affects of

> these (or other) herbs on the stomach acid. Maybe some of these have a

> some-what adaptogenic nature.

>

I think that their chemical constituents pretty much covers it, but I'd also

like to add that some physicians believe that taking antacids can cause a

rebound effect where the stomach ends up secreting more HCL to re-acidize

itself, in which case I suppose one could say that these herbs stimulate the

secretion of HCL.

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

February 9, 2008

I'm happy you at least found it interesting. After 35 plus years, I've

thought a lot about many of these and other ideas.

What does the concept in TCM mean when it states that the stomach must be

cool? -- or that it is the place where the yin for the body is created?

Its a fundamental idea -- balancing the cooler middle warmer with the warmer

lower warmer. The process of digestion is many things but it is

fundamentally a chemical breakdown of food beginning in the middle warmer

(stomach) HCL acid in the stomach to alkaline (pepsin and biliary

secretions) and finally what is probably a slightly more acidic environment

in the Large intestine.

HCL is one of the most potent natural acids there is, or so I am told. In

order for HCL to not destroy the stomach lining there needs to be a

sufficient coating of mucus.

From wickpedia: Alkaline mucus is a thick fluid produced by animals which

confers tissue protection in an acidic <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid>

environment, such as in the stomach <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stomach> .

Therefore the mucus lining the stomach must be alkaline (cool and what in

TCM would be " the yin of the stomach " ) to protect it from the acidic

contents (hot). Not try to wrap your mind around an understanding of the

effects of herbs such as ophiopogon and dendrobium for nourishing stomach

yin.

Acid reflux irritates and swells the mucous lining in the throat, esophagus

and stomach, which disrupts the digestive process. The irritation can form

ulcers. The acid-alkaline balance of the digestive tract is also upset,

leading to further accumulation of acid.

Mucus protect all tissues because it is cool (more alkaline) cold mucus is

clear or white but hot mucus which is more acidic is yellow. Bitter herbs

and green vegetables generally have the effect of cooling, i.e. neutralizing

acid. However dose is important. Large doses of strongly bitter herbs, as in

digestive bitters, can produce a rebound acid effect. This is ultimately

exhaustive to the yang of the body and that is one reason why depending on

the ingesting over bitters over a long period of time to treat digestive

weakness can ultimately weaken digestive and an increasing creative

dependency on these.

Michael Tierra

www.planeherbs.com

_____

On Behalf Of Joseph Garner

Saturday, February 09, 2008 5:30 AM

RE: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

Michael,

Interesting. But on what do you base this idea?

Joseph Garner

Michael Tierra <mtierra@planetherbs <mtierra%40planetherbs.com> .com>

wrote: My thinking about it is that the contents of the stomach is acid but

the

lining is alkaline. The yin and yang of it is that if the acid content is

greater than the alkaline lining -- the result is GERD or ulcers. Michael

Tierra

_____

http://www.chineseh <http://www..org> erbacademy.org

Change settings via the Web ( ID required)

Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format

to Traditional

Visit Your Group | Terms of Use | Un

Recent Activity

2

New Members

Visit Your Group

Health

Healthy Aging

Improve your

quality of life.

Meditation and

Lovingkindness

A Group

to share and learn.

Moderator Central

Join and receive

produce updates.

..

Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Search.

February 9, 2008

Free thinking is what everyone does whether intended or not -- or we can

take a stab at non-thinking which is better for our soul. for me, the

ultimate question in regards to TCM is not whether something is true or not.

It is in the practicality or usefulness of a thought that the tradition is

based. TCM is circular logic and that is what drives Westerners crazy as you

said " yin and yang has many permutations " right on! so what do you go with?

What are we as Westerner TCM practitioners faced with? On the one hand we

have the classics and these are so often so sketchy that even every duly

trained Chinese exponent will ridiculously site some fragment of the Nei

Ching or Nan Jing in support of whatever theory they want -- sort of like

how some will site a quotation from the bible on the one hand to justify a

call to war and on another a call to peace or anything else in complete

disregard for cultural context.

All well and good but ---- Does that mean we -- you or I have no place for

" free thinking " -- who is or is not qualified to be the free thinkers here?

How many respected TCM practitioners have you studied with (as I have) who

have not contradicted each other. Our training in TCM is such that we have

learned to be comfortable with the 'either, or, and' way of thought.

Personally I like it but I claim my right based on whatever level of

experience and knowledge I have been able to garner in over 35 years of

practice to participate.

Yes, I think it is vitally important and enlightening to expand beyond the

classics and at least attempt to understand TCM in light of modern

physiology. To that end, I don't mind being wrong once in awhile but at

least it might be an interesting discussion that could lead to further

evolution and a deeper appreciation for the incredible collective genius

behind Traditional .

So I posit the notion that mucus is the alkaline secretion that protects the

stomach from being destroyed by its acidic contents -- therefore I propose

that the mucus secretions of the stomach are at least in part what the

classics describe as " stomach yin " . This is particularly exciting to me

because it causes me to consider at a deeper level what the actual actions

and properties are of herbs that " nourish stomach yin. " We can have fun

studying the biochemistry of these herbs which by the way, I favor that we

know them both by their Latin binomials as well as their Chinese names if

for no other reason than the fact that many different herbs, even different

species of herbs are too often known by the same Chinese name.

Michael Tierra

www.planetherbs.com

_____

On Behalf Of

Saturday, February 09, 2008 6:39 AM