in support of creative thought in TCM

[Guest guest]

Respectfully, have you not sat in on classes such as a class on Japanese

hara diagnosis and the instructor goes off at length that the entire

elaborate system of hara diagnosis comes from a rather brief chapter in the

nei ching describing the " mu " points and then they proceed to teach an

entire system of abdominal palpation and diagnosis that doesn't even use the

" mu " points. I think its a great system but stretches the point as to how

much it needs to be validated by the nei ching. To mention a page or

sentence from the Ni Jing or Nan jing to validate what essentially is

someone's creative, and often excellent approach, is a stretch. That's what

I'm referring t.

 

The basis of my discussion was the contention that one should be careful or

should avoid personal creative thought and connections in TCM. I didn't have

a traditional education and when i learned it was a bit here and a bit

there, and I was forced to have to figure a lot of things out for myself. So

my path to TCM may not be the same as those who followed a more traditional

line of study -- I probably have gaps which I love to fill in but I also

have personal insights and connections that may have no footnote to a

Chinese classic.

 

I'm a western herbalist and healer, practicing Chinese medicine. Can't get

away from it and don't think I need to. What is so beautiful about Chinese

medicine is how much of it is so right on in terms of modern science and

physiology. I'm hardly a scientist but I find that any time I can find a

connection between TCM, Western medicine and Ayurvedic medicine it is really

exciting and deepens my understanding and appreciation.

 

I know that Chinese have a lot of research comparing TCM theory with modern

physiology. One interesting paper described how the concept of " spleen Qi "

conformed to cellular mitochondria and the manufacture of ATP. I'm a

traditionalist and hardly consider myself an expert on these matters but I

got excited because what does that little snippet of information say about

the properties of Spleen qi tonics?

 

Then there is the discovery of heart hormones that seem to influence thought

(check out the group called " Heart Math " ) and what does that say about the

relationship of the heart to the mind?

 

Lung Qi is described as a mist and we have oxygen carried on iron molecules

throughout the body to support that idea.

 

So stomach yin being the mucus on the stomach that protects it from being

destroyed by the acids.

 

I know I'm risking poppy cock but to my way of thinking these are exciting

ideas that really expand my appreciation and understanding of the classics.

 

--- and then there are a number of thus far unsupported traditional concepts

such as the 'incompatibles' that may need to be edited out or explained

differently.

 

Michael Tierra

www.planetherbs.com

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of

Sunday, February 10, 2008 2:43 PM

 

Re: Stomach acid was-- Wu Mei as a Supplementing Medicinal

 

 

 

Michael,

While I've enjoyed a lot of what you've had to say on wu mei, and

also hold this medicinal in high esteem, I think you are stretching it

by injecting this point below. There are plenty of scholars in Nei

Jing, Nan Jing, Shang Han Lun and other classics who don't do what you

say below, who are quite scholarly about the texts, and clearly state

their sources and ideas. Also a " jing " is not a 'bible', it is more

of a compendium of medical principles that have been applied to new

situations. The fact that they've survived the generations to inspire

new practitioners of medicine is both astounding and inspiring.

 

 

On Feb 9, 2008, at 8:31 AM, Michael Tierra wrote:

 

> On the one hand we

> have the classics and these are so often so sketchy that even every

> duly

> trained Chinese exponent will ridiculously site some fragment of the

> Nei

> Ching or Nan Jing in support of whatever theory they want -- sort of

> like

> how some will site a quotation from the bible on the one hand to

> justify a

> call to war and on another a call to peace or anything else in

> complete

> disregard for cultural context.

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yes,

I know what you are talking about, but there is foolishness in all

times and places. But this doesn't mean that we can generalize and

say that anyone and everyone who quotes the classics is just using a

superficial analysis to support anything that they wish to profess.

There are Ph. D. programs in Shang Han Lun, Su Wen, and other classics

available in China, and in-depth scholarship is developing in the West

as well. See the new Su Wen dictionary put together by Paul Unschuld

and Hermann Tessenow, available in mid-March from University of

California Press. I know individuals, such as Arnaud Versluys in

Portland, Ore., who have Ph. D.'s in the Shang Han Lun and practice an

exclusively Shang Han Lun style.

 

Michael, your reputation proceeds you, and you are very well

respected in our field. It is admirable to be so well versed in

Western herbal medicine as well as Chinese medicine, and the cross-

fertilization is just as valuable as any integrative medicine. Why

should Chinese medicine only integrate data from biomedicine?

 

 

On Feb 10, 2008, at 4:00 PM, Michael Tierra wrote:

 

> Respectfully, have you not sat in on classes such as a class on

> Japanese

> hara diagnosis and the instructor goes off at length that the entire

> elaborate system of hara diagnosis comes from a rather brief chapter

> in the

> nei ching describing the " mu " points and then they proceed to teach an

> entire system of abdominal palpation and diagnosis that doesn't even

> use the

> " mu " points. I think its a great system but stretches the point as

> to how

> much it needs to be validated by the nei ching. To mention a page or

> sentence from the Ni Jing or Nan jing to validate what essentially is

> someone's creative, and often excellent approach, is a stretch.

> That's what

> I'm referring t.

>

> The basis of my discussion was the contention that one should be

> careful or

> should avoid personal creative thought and connections in TCM. I

> didn't have

> a traditional education and when i learned it was a bit here and a bit

> there, and I was forced to have to figure a lot of things out for

> myself. So

> my path to TCM may not be the same as those who followed a more

> traditional

> line of study -- I probably have gaps which I love to fill in but I

> also

> have personal insights and connections that may have no footnote to a

> Chinese classic.

>

> I'm a western herbalist and healer, practicing Chinese medicine.

> Can't get

> away from it and don't think I need to. What is so beautiful about

> Chinese

> medicine is how much of it is so right on in terms of modern science

> and

> physiology. I'm hardly a scientist but I find that any time I can

> find a

> connection between TCM, Western medicine and Ayurvedic medicine it

> is really

> exciting and deepens my understanding and appreciation.

>

> On Feb 9, 2008, at 8:31 AM, Michael Tierra wrote:

>

> > On the one hand we

> > have the classics and these are so often so sketchy that even every

> > duly

> > trained Chinese exponent will ridiculously site some fragment of the

> > Nei

> > Ching or Nan Jing in support of whatever theory they want -- sort of

> > like

> > how some will site a quotation from the bible on the one hand to

> > justify a

> > call to war and on another a call to peace or anything else in

> > complete

> > disregard for cultural context.

>

>

> Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> San Diego, Ca. 92122

>

>

[Guest guest]

I completely agree and I don't think Chinese medicine does not have to

integrate data from biomedicine. I think we are in agreement 99% I'm just

playing a bit of the devil's advocate and encouraging TCM practitioners to

allow themselves to think a little more freely after all is said and done

all herbalism of worth is based on empirical (what works) information.

Michael

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of

 

 

 

Yes,

I know what you are talking about, but there is foolishness in all

times and places. But this doesn't mean that we can generalize and

say that anyone and everyone who quotes the classics is just using a

superficial analysis to support anything that they wish to profess.

There are Ph. D. programs in Shang Han Lun, Su Wen, and other classics

available in China, and in-depth scholarship is developing in the West

as well. See the new Su Wen dictionary put together by Paul Unschuld

and Hermann Tessenow, available in mid-March from University of

California Press. I know individuals, such as Arnaud Versluys in

Portland, Ore., who have Ph. D.'s in the Shang Han Lun and practice an

exclusively Shang Han Lun style.

 

Michael, your reputation proceeds you, and you are very well

respected in our field. It is admirable to be so well versed in

Western herbal medicine as well as Chinese medicine, and the cross-

fertilization is just as valuable as any integrative medicine. Why

should Chinese medicine only integrate data from biomedicine?

 

 

On Feb 10, 2008, at 4:00 PM, Michael Tierra wrote:

[Guest guest]

Michael,

 

 

 

This whole conversation started with wu mei and its uses. I might have

missed a response (sometimes I do not get all the messages), but I asked

where does your statement that wu mei " neutralizes acid " come from? Is this

your personal experience or from some source? Or was this a confusion with

Ume-Boshi?

 

 

 

Furthermore some of your explanations for the wu mei were unclear I was

wondering if you could clarify. You used some interesting theoretical

statements such as " the yin of the body comes from the stomach " and " the

stomach MUST be cold " - Since this sounds a little odd, especially since

there are patterns of Stomach cold (which by the way can cause ulcers (WM))

I was wondering if you could explain where this is from?

 

 

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Michael Tierra

Tuesday, February 12, 2008 9:22 PM

 

RE: in support of creative thought in TCM

 

 

 

I completely agree and I don't think Chinese medicine does not have to

integrate data from biomedicine. I think we are in agreement 99% I'm just

playing a bit of the devil's advocate and encouraging TCM practitioners to

allow themselves to think a little more freely after all is said and done

all herbalism of worth is based on empirical (what works) information.

Michael

 

_____

 

@ <%40>

 

[@ <%40>

] On Behalf Of

 

Yes,

I know what you are talking about, but there is foolishness in all

times and places. But this doesn't mean that we can generalize and

say that anyone and everyone who quotes the classics is just using a

superficial analysis to support anything that they wish to profess.

There are Ph. D. programs in Shang Han Lun, Su Wen, and other classics

available in China, and in-depth scholarship is developing in the West

as well. See the new Su Wen dictionary put together by Paul Unschuld

and Hermann Tessenow, available in mid-March from University of

California Press. I know individuals, such as Arnaud Versluys in

Portland, Ore., who have Ph. D.'s in the Shang Han Lun and practice an

exclusively Shang Han Lun style.

 

Michael, your reputation proceeds you, and you are very well

respected in our field. It is admirable to be so well versed in

Western herbal medicine as well as Chinese medicine, and the cross-

fertilization is just as valuable as any integrative medicine. Why

should Chinese medicine only integrate data from biomedicine?

 

 

On Feb 10, 2008, at 4:00 PM, Michael Tierra wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Maciocia teaches that all the yin of the body is formed in the Stomach.

Jimmy Chang echoes that when he describes a pulse 'floating with force' in

the right 'guan' position as " stomach heat'. This is often mistaken for

slippery which is related to phlegm. Japanese hara diagnosis, begins the

examination by palpating and comparing the stomach area (around CV12 with

the dan tien (below the navel around CV6). It should be warmer below and

cool above unless one has eaten recently. This is basic theory. Miriam Lee

used to teach that the 'Stomach likes to be cool and the Spleen likes to be

warm. 'I don't think this contradicts the pathology of a 'cold stomach' but

rather, it describes the 'righteous energy' of the stomach which should be

normally cooler and damper than the spleen which in turn is normally warmer

and drier. further, I think that mucus as the 'excess' residue of food which

is the result of slower or impaired metabolism is the imbalance we describe

as 'spleen dampness. "

 

So is it a stretch to conceive that mucus, which is the alkaline secretion

of the stomach lining and indispensable for protecting it from its its

content of powerful digestive acids would serve as " the yin of the stomach? "

 

 

I don't mean to oversimplify complex TCM physiology and I only think that

these serve as a 'partial' explanation for theory.

 

As to Wu Mei and Umeboshi. I, perhaps like many of you, used to be a

proponent of Japanese macrobiotics a take off of TCM dietetics. I learned

how important umeboshi was among traditional Japanese home remedies. Bob

Flaws points out the energetic properties and distinctions between wu mei

and ume and the discussion seemed to end there.

 

I'm satisfied that they are different but the nagging question is 'how' and

in what way are they different. Should we not at least consider that

Japanese umeboshi as a way of preparing a Chinese herb and then consider how

aging in salt (adding the water element) combining with shiso (adding the

summer element and aging in the fall (adding the metal element) alter or

expand upon the properties of wu mei? The fact that " mume " formula in TCM is

always the first formula that comes to mind when I think about a formula for

treating parasites -- and yet I don't see anything in the innate

biochemistry of the herbs in that formula that would directly serve as a

vermicide.

 

Then reading Bensky's description seems to enlighten more: he says that is

has citric acid, malic acid and succinic acid and beta sitosterol. In other

words very wu mei changes stomach chemistry unfavorable to parasites.

 

Umeboshi is used for all gastro-intestinal diseases, especially ulcers and

gastroenteritis and also for undesirable microorganisms in the gut

(according to Bensky the high acidity of the fruit is antibacterial). I

think its not a far stretch to think that it is also good for worms.

 

So Umeboshi according to Japanese theory, attracts of increases acid and the

salt then presumably neutralizes it. Its a basic formulation idea. It also

treats a wide variety of GI and external disease symptoms. I think of it as

processed " Wu Mei " preserving some of the properties and bringing out

others.

 

Michael Tierra

www.planetherbs.com

 

_____

[Guest guest]

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Michael Tierra

Wednesday, February 13, 2008 2:28 PM

 

RE: in support of creative thought in TCM

 

 

 

Maciocia teaches that all the yin of the body is formed in the Stomach.

 

 

 

 

 

Can you point to where Maciocia says this?

 

Jimmy Chang echoes that when he describes a pulse 'floating with force' in

the right 'guan' position as " stomach heat'.

 

 

 

I am unsure how this supports your stance. Can you explain more? However, I

think we agree that the stomach may contract cold or heat. That is clinical.

 

I was also unclear from the below post. Are you retracting the idea that wu

mei " neutralizes stomach acid. " ?

 

-

 

This is often mistaken for

slippery which is related to phlegm. Japanese hara diagnosis, begins the

examination by palpating and comparing the stomach area (around CV12 with

the dan tien (below the navel around CV6). It should be warmer below and

cool above unless one has eaten recently. This is basic theory. Miriam Lee

used to teach that the 'Stomach likes to be cool and the Spleen likes to be

warm. 'I don't think this contradicts the pathology of a 'cold stomach' but

rather, it describes the 'righteous energy' of the stomach which should be

normally cooler and damper than the spleen which in turn is normally warmer

and drier. further, I think that mucus as the 'excess' residue of food which

is the result of slower or impaired metabolism is the imbalance we describe

as 'spleen dampness. "

 

So is it a stretch to conceive that mucus, which is the alkaline secretion

of the stomach lining and indispensable for protecting it from its its

content of powerful digestive acids would serve as " the yin of the stomach? "

 

I don't mean to oversimplify complex TCM physiology and I only think that

these serve as a 'partial' explanation for theory.

 

As to Wu Mei and Umeboshi. I, perhaps like many of you, used to be a

proponent of Japanese macrobiotics a take off of TCM dietetics. I learned

how important umeboshi was among traditional Japanese home remedies. Bob

Flaws points out the energetic properties and distinctions between wu mei

and ume and the discussion seemed to end there.

 

I'm satisfied that they are different but the nagging question is 'how' and

in what way are they different. Should we not at least consider that

Japanese umeboshi as a way of preparing a Chinese herb and then consider how

aging in salt (adding the water element) combining with shiso (adding the

summer element and aging in the fall (adding the metal element) alter or

expand upon the properties of wu mei? The fact that " mume " formula in TCM is

always the first formula that comes to mind when I think about a formula for

treating parasites -- and yet I don't see anything in the innate

biochemistry of the herbs in that formula that would directly serve as a

vermicide.

 

Then reading Bensky's description seems to enlighten more: he says that is

has citric acid, malic acid and succinic acid and beta sitosterol. In other

words very wu mei changes stomach chemistry unfavorable to parasites.

 

Umeboshi is used for all gastro-intestinal diseases, especially ulcers and

gastroenteritis and also for undesirable microorganisms in the gut

(according to Bensky the high acidity of the fruit is antibacterial). I

think its not a far stretch to think that it is also good for worms.

 

So Umeboshi according to Japanese theory, attracts of increases acid and the

salt then presumably neutralizes it. Its a basic formulation idea. It also

treats a wide variety of GI and external disease symptoms. I think of it as

processed " Wu Mei " preserving some of the properties and bringing out

others.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of

Wednesday, February 13, 2008 8:07 PM

 

RE: in support of creative thought in TCM

 

We're really a bit off track here but --

Respectfully Jason, music from medieval, renaissance, through Bach,

Beethoven, impressionism, polytonality, atonality, Stravinsky, Satie,

Debussy, Schoenberg, John Cage, John Coltrane, Ornette Coleman to

contemporary so-called minimalist composers such as Steve Reich and Philip

Glass encompass many diverse methods and theories. Its not just rock and

roll harmonics. Many forms and mostly contemporary composers create unique

and original forms for each new piece. History generally upholds that the

greatest composers were those who diverged or expanded upon or beyond known

traditions -- otherwise we'd all be still doing the jig to monophonic

Gregorian chant. The same is true of art, poetry and just about every human

endeavor. Regarding CM we each bring our relative strengths and weaknesses

and we should not be afraid to 'think out of the box' occasionally, come up

with some of our own opinions and theories and share them with others as

John Shen did. I'm sure that's how CM evolved and how it will continue to

evolve in China and in the West.

 

As to the entire " yin of the body being created in the stomach " this was

said by Maciocia at a seminar on Phlegm disorders. Perhaps this is his

personal MSUing, I don't know I've never heart that before but as I thought

about it, how everything good comes from the center (stomach-spleen - earth)

I thought it to be a very insightful comment.

 

As to the Jimmy Chang floating pulse in the right guan position. Sorry, I

wasn't clear. Everyone in the class would read that pulse as slippery and he

described it as floating and called it stomach heat.

 

Yes Wu Mei based on its constituents is very acidic it has a warm nature yet

it generates fluids and is used to alleviate thirst, deficient heat from gi

or yin deficiency and according to Bensky, for wasting and thirsting

disorder due to heat from deficiency. So I wonder -- since it is high in

organic acids. In the earlier revised Bensky on page 379, he offers some

clinical research that is absent in the latest edition. In it he say that

" It is possible that this herb's in vitro antimicrobial effect is related to

its acidity. " further down he states how it stimulates the production of

bile and the contraction of the bile duct. It generates fluids and can be

used for wasting thirst disorder. So what kind of fluids would it be

generating? I'm conjecturing that it may be stimulating righteous

stomach-yin fluids which I then posit to be the mucus that lines the stomach

and protects it from its acidic contents.

 

Michael Tierra

 

 

 

 

 

_____

 

@ <%40>

 

[@ <%40>

] On Behalf Of Michael Tierra

Wednesday, February 13, 2008 2:28 PM

@ <%40>

 

RE: in support of creative thought in TCM

 

Maciocia teaches that all the yin of the body is formed in the Stomach.

 

 

 

Can you point to where Maciocia says this?

 

Jimmy Chang echoes that when he describes a pulse 'floating with force' in

the right 'guan' position as " stomach heat'.

 

 

 

I am unsure how this supports your stance. Can you explain more? However, I

think we agree that the stomach may contract cold or heat. That is clinical.

 

I was also unclear from the below post. Are you retracting the idea that wu

mei " neutralizes stomach acid. " ?

 

-

 

This is often mistaken for

slippery which is related to phlegm. Japanese hara diagnosis, begins the

examination by palpating and comparing the stomach area (around CV12 with

the dan tien (below the navel around CV6). It should be warmer below and

cool above unless one has eaten recently. This is basic theory. Miriam Lee

used to teach that the 'Stomach likes to be cool and the Spleen likes to be

warm. 'I don't think this contradicts the pathology of a 'cold stomach' but

rather, it describes the 'righteous energy' of the stomach which should be

normally cooler and damper than the spleen which in turn is normally warmer

and drier. further, I think that mucus as the 'excess' residue of food which

is the result of slower or impaired metabolism is the imbalance we describe

as 'spleen dampness. "

 

So is it a stretch to conceive that mucus, which is the alkaline secretion

of the stomach lining and indispensable for protecting it from its its

content of powerful digestive acids would serve as " the yin of the stomach? "

 

I don't mean to oversimplify complex TCM physiology and I only think that

these serve as a 'partial' explanation for theory.

 

As to Wu Mei and Umeboshi. I, perhaps like many of you, used to be a

proponent of Japanese macrobiotics a take off of TCM dietetics. I learned

how important umeboshi was among traditional Japanese home remedies. Bob

Flaws points out the energetic properties and distinctions between wu mei

and ume and the discussion seemed to end there.

 

I'm satisfied that they are different but the nagging question is 'how' and

in what way are they different. Should we not at least consider that

Japanese umeboshi as a way of preparing a Chinese herb and then consider how

aging in salt (adding the water element) combining with shiso (adding the

summer element and aging in the fall (adding the metal element) alter or

expand upon the properties of wu mei? The fact that " mume " formula in TCM is

always the first formula that comes to mind when I think about a formula for

treating parasites -- and yet I don't see anything in the innate

biochemistry of the herbs in that formula that would directly serve as a

vermicide.

 

Then reading Bensky's description seems to enlighten more: he says that is

has citric acid, malic acid and succinic acid and beta sitosterol. In other

words very wu mei changes stomach chemistry unfavorable to parasites.

 

Umeboshi is used for all gastro-intestinal diseases, especially ulcers and

gastroenteritis and also for undesirable microorganisms in the gut

(according to Bensky the high acidity of the fruit is antibacterial). I

think its not a far stretch to think that it is also good for worms.

 

So Umeboshi according to Japanese theory, attracts of increases acid and the

salt then presumably neutralizes it. Its a basic formulation idea. It also

treats a wide variety of GI and external disease symptoms. I think of it as

processed " Wu Mei " preserving some of the properties and bringing out

others.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Michael,

 

 

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting we do not evolve in CM. Mine (and others)

point is simply that one must have a firm foundation first. Almost all these

great musicians and composers (who went into their own dimension) studied

and mastered various theory and music that came before them. They did not

learn a few hours of theory and then suddenly created masterpieces. Even

Jackson Pollack studied and mastered styles that came before him. So maybe

we just disagree on how much we need before we try to jump outside the box.

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Michael Tierra

Thursday, February 14, 2008 2:47 AM

 

RE: in support of creative thought in TCM

 

 

 

 

 

_____

 

@ <%40>

 

[@ <%40>

] On Behalf Of

Wednesday, February 13, 2008 8:07 PM

@ <%40>

 

RE: in support of creative thought in TCM

 

We're really a bit off track here but --

Respectfully Jason, music from medieval, renaissance, through Bach,

Beethoven, impressionism, polytonality, atonality, Stravinsky, Satie,

Debussy, Schoenberg, John Cage, John Coltrane, Ornette Coleman to

contemporary so-called minimalist composers such as Steve Reich and Philip

Glass encompass many diverse methods and theories. Its not just rock and

roll harmonics. Many forms and mostly contemporary composers create unique

and original forms for each new piece. History generally upholds that the

greatest composers were those who diverged or expanded upon or beyond known

traditions -- otherwise we'd all be still doing the jig to monophonic

Gregorian chant. The same is true of art, poetry and just about every human

endeavor. Regarding CM we each bring our relative strengths and weaknesses

and we should not be afraid to 'think out of the box' occasionally, come up

with some of our own opinions and theories and share them with others as

John Shen did. I'm sure that's how CM evolved and how it will continue to

evolve in China and in the West.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Michael,

 

 

 

Thanks for explaining. You have an interesting run of thoughts here, but I

consider this a little bit of leap to the statement, " wu mei neutralizes

stomach acid " especially since everything I can find in Chinese says

otherwise. However, although I hear what you are saying, I also feel that

this type of creative thought on theory can lead us to incorrect / dangerous

conclusions about herbs. Such a statement in regard to acid should be very

clear in terms of evaluating it from a biochemical level. I find it hard

misinterpret this. But if it works for you in the way you describe, I would

like to hear about some clinical realty. I will definitely keep your idea in

mind as I evaluate wumei in the clinic. :-)

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Michael Tierra

Thursday, February 14, 2008 2:47 AM

 

RE: in support of creative thought in TCM

 

 

 

Yes Wu Mei based on its constituents is very acidic it has a warm nature yet

it generates fluids and is used to alleviate thirst, deficient heat from gi

or yin deficiency and according to Bensky, for wasting and thirsting

disorder due to heat from deficiency. So I wonder -- since it is high in

organic acids. In the earlier revised Bensky on page 379, he offers some

clinical research that is absent in the latest edition. In it he say that

" It is possible that this herb's in vitro antimicrobial effect is related to

its acidity. " further down he states how it stimulates the production of

bile and the contraction of the bile duct. It generates fluids and can be

used for wasting thirst disorder. So what kind of fluids would it be

generating? I'm conjecturing that it may be stimulating righteous

stomach-yin fluids which I then posit to be the mucus that lines the stomach

and protects it from its acidic contents.

 

Michael Tierra

 

_____

 

@ <%40>

 

[@ <%40>

] On Behalf Of Michael Tierra

Wednesday, February 13, 2008 2:28 PM

@ <%40>

 

RE: in support of creative thought in TCM

 

Maciocia teaches that all the yin of the body is formed in the Stomach.

 

 

 

Can you point to where Maciocia says this?

 

Jimmy Chang echoes that when he describes a pulse 'floating with force' in

the right 'guan' position as " stomach heat'.

 

 

 

I am unsure how this supports your stance. Can you explain more? However, I

think we agree that the stomach may contract cold or heat. That is clinical.

 

I was also unclear from the below post. Are you retracting the idea that wu

mei " neutralizes stomach acid. " ?

 

-

 

This is often mistaken for

slippery which is related to phlegm. Japanese hara diagnosis, begins the

examination by palpating and comparing the stomach area (around CV12 with

the dan tien (below the navel around CV6). It should be warmer below and

cool above unless one has eaten recently. This is basic theory. Miriam Lee

used to teach that the 'Stomach likes to be cool and the Spleen likes to be

warm. 'I don't think this contradicts the pathology of a 'cold stomach' but

rather, it describes the 'righteous energy' of the stomach which should be

normally cooler and damper than the spleen which in turn is normally warmer

and drier. further, I think that mucus as the 'excess' residue of food which

is the result of slower or impaired metabolism is the imbalance we describe

as 'spleen dampness. "

 

So is it a stretch to conceive that mucus, which is the alkaline secretion

of the stomach lining and indispensable for protecting it from its its

content of powerful digestive acids would serve as " the yin of the stomach? "

 

I don't mean to oversimplify complex TCM physiology and I only think that

these serve as a 'partial' explanation for theory.

 

As to Wu Mei and Umeboshi. I, perhaps like many of you, used to be a

proponent of Japanese macrobiotics a take off of TCM dietetics. I learned

how important umeboshi was among traditional Japanese home remedies. Bob

Flaws points out the energetic properties and distinctions between wu mei

and ume and the discussion seemed to end there.

 

I'm satisfied that they are different but the nagging question is 'how' and

in what way are they different. Should we not at least consider that

Japanese umeboshi as a way of preparing a Chinese herb and then consider how

aging in salt (adding the water element) combining with shiso (adding the

summer element and aging in the fall (adding the metal element) alter or

expand upon the properties of wu mei? The fact that " mume " formula in TCM is

always the first formula that comes to mind when I think about a formula for

treating parasites -- and yet I don't see anything in the innate

biochemistry of the herbs in that formula that would directly serve as a

vermicide.

 

Then reading Bensky's description seems to enlighten more: he says that is

has citric acid, malic acid and succinic acid and beta sitosterol. In other

words very wu mei changes stomach chemistry unfavorable to parasites.

 

Umeboshi is used for all gastro-intestinal diseases, especially ulcers and

gastroenteritis and also for undesirable microorganisms in the gut

(according to Bensky the high acidity of the fruit is antibacterial). I

think its not a far stretch to think that it is also good for worms.

 

So Umeboshi according to Japanese theory, attracts of increases acid and the

salt then presumably neutralizes it. Its a basic formulation idea. It also

treats a wide variety of GI and external disease symptoms. I think of it as

processed " Wu Mei " preserving some of the properties and bringing out

others.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yes maybe Maciocia was just riffing.. Has anyone seen this statement made in

Chinese? " All the yin in from the Stomach? "

 

 

 

This brings me to the next line of thinking. Since Maciocia does say that

" The Stomach is the origin of fluids " do people find that these two

statements lead to clinical different possibilities. For example, do people

make the distinction between yin deficiency and fluid deficiency, and if so

how? and how does their treatment change?

 

 

 

Just curious,

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Michael Tierra

Thursday, February 14, 2008 2:47 AM

 

RE: in support of creative thought in TCM

 

 

 

 

 

_____

 

@ <%40>

 

[@ <%40>

] On Behalf Of

Wednesday, February 13, 2008 8:07 PM

@ <%40>

 

RE: in support of creative thought in TCM

 

We're really a bit off track here but --

Respectfully Jason, music from medieval, renaissance, through Bach,

Beethoven, impressionism, polytonality, atonality, Stravinsky, Satie,

Debussy, Schoenberg, John Cage, John Coltrane, Ornette Coleman to

contemporary so-called minimalist composers such as Steve Reich and Philip

Glass encompass many diverse methods and theories. Its not just rock and

roll harmonics. Many forms and mostly contemporary composers create unique

and original forms for each new piece. History generally upholds that the

greatest composers were those who diverged or expanded upon or beyond known

traditions -- otherwise we'd all be still doing the jig to monophonic

Gregorian chant. The same is true of art, poetry and just about every human

endeavor. Regarding CM we each bring our relative strengths and weaknesses

and we should not be afraid to 'think out of the box' occasionally, come up

with some of our own opinions and theories and share them with others as

John Shen did. I'm sure that's how CM evolved and how it will continue to

evolve in China and in the West.

 

As to the entire " yin of the body being created in the stomach " this was

said by Maciocia at a seminar on Phlegm disorders. Perhaps this is his

personal MSUing, I don't know I've never heart that before but as I thought

about it, how everything good comes from the center (stomach-spleen - earth)

I thought it to be a very insightful comment.

 

As to the Jimmy Chang floating pulse in the right guan position. Sorry, I

wasn't clear. Everyone in the class would read that pulse as slippery and he

described it as floating and called it stomach heat.

 

Yes Wu Mei based on its constituents is very acidic it has a warm nature yet

it generates fluids and is used to alleviate thirst, deficient heat from gi

or yin deficiency and according to Bensky, for wasting and thirsting

disorder due to heat from deficiency. So I wonder -- since it is high in

organic acids. In the earlier revised Bensky on page 379, he offers some

clinical research that is absent in the latest edition. In it he say that

" It is possible that this herb's in vitro antimicrobial effect is related to

its acidity. " further down he states how it stimulates the production of

bile and the contraction of the bile duct. It generates fluids and can be

used for wasting thirst disorder. So what kind of fluids would it be

generating? I'm conjecturing that it may be stimulating righteous

stomach-yin fluids which I then posit to be the mucus that lines the stomach

and protects it from its acidic contents.

 

Michael Tierra

 

_____

 

@ <%40>

 

[@ <%40>

] On Behalf Of Michael Tierra

Wednesday, February 13, 2008 2:28 PM

@ <%40>

 

RE: in support of creative thought in TCM

 

Maciocia teaches that all the yin of the body is formed in the Stomach.

 

 

 

Can you point to where Maciocia says this?

 

Jimmy Chang echoes that when he describes a pulse 'floating with force' in

the right 'guan' position as " stomach heat'.

 

 

 

I am unsure how this supports your stance. Can you explain more? However, I

think we agree that the stomach may contract cold or heat. That is clinical.

 

I was also unclear from the below post. Are you retracting the idea that wu

mei " neutralizes stomach acid. " ?

 

-

 

This is often mistaken for

slippery which is related to phlegm. Japanese hara diagnosis, begins the

examination by palpating and comparing the stomach area (around CV12 with

the dan tien (below the navel around CV6). It should be warmer below and

cool above unless one has eaten recently. This is basic theory. Miriam Lee

used to teach that the 'Stomach likes to be cool and the Spleen likes to be

warm. 'I don't think this contradicts the pathology of a 'cold stomach' but

rather, it describes the 'righteous energy' of the stomach which should be

normally cooler and damper than the spleen which in turn is normally warmer

and drier. further, I think that mucus as the 'excess' residue of food which

is the result of slower or impaired metabolism is the imbalance we describe

as 'spleen dampness. "

 

So is it a stretch to conceive that mucus, which is the alkaline secretion

of the stomach lining and indispensable for protecting it from its its

content of powerful digestive acids would serve as " the yin of the stomach? "

 

I don't mean to oversimplify complex TCM physiology and I only think that

these serve as a 'partial' explanation for theory.

 

As to Wu Mei and Umeboshi. I, perhaps like many of you, used to be a

proponent of Japanese macrobiotics a take off of TCM dietetics. I learned

how important umeboshi was among traditional Japanese home remedies. Bob

Flaws points out the energetic properties and distinctions between wu mei

and ume and the discussion seemed to end there.

 

I'm satisfied that they are different but the nagging question is 'how' and

in what way are they different. Should we not at least consider that

Japanese umeboshi as a way of preparing a Chinese herb and then consider how

aging in salt (adding the water element) combining with shiso (adding the

summer element and aging in the fall (adding the metal element) alter or

expand upon the properties of wu mei? The fact that " mume " formula in TCM is

always the first formula that comes to mind when I think about a formula for

treating parasites -- and yet I don't see anything in the innate

biochemistry of the herbs in that formula that would directly serve as a

vermicide.

 

Then reading Bensky's description seems to enlighten more: he says that is

has citric acid, malic acid and succinic acid and beta sitosterol. In other

words very wu mei changes stomach chemistry unfavorable to parasites.

 

Umeboshi is used for all gastro-intestinal diseases, especially ulcers and

gastroenteritis and also for undesirable microorganisms in the gut

(according to Bensky the high acidity of the fruit is antibacterial). I

think its not a far stretch to think that it is also good for worms.

 

So Umeboshi according to Japanese theory, attracts of increases acid and the

salt then presumably neutralizes it. Its a basic formulation idea. It also

treats a wide variety of GI and external disease symptoms. I think of it as

processed " Wu Mei " preserving some of the properties and bringing out

others.

 

 

[Guest guest]

On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 8:18 PM, <

> wrote:

 

> This brings me to the next line of thinking. Since Maciocia does say

> that

> " The Stomach is the origin of fluids " do people find that these two

> statements lead to clinical different possibilities. For example, do

> people

> make the distinction between yin deficiency and fluid deficiency, and if

> so

> how? and how does their treatment change?

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

One of my respected teachers suggests that when you say " Lung yin

deficiency " you're actually saying " Kidney and Lung yin deficiency " . Same

thing with Heart yin, Liver yin deficiencies because the Kidneys are the

source of Yin in the body.

 

I believe that Maciocia is suggesting an exception to that rule is a Stomach

yin deficiency which may be solely a Stomach problem. This is how I think

about it clinically.

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Jason said, " Yes maybe Maciocia was just riffing.. Has anyone seen this

statement made in Chinese? " All the yin of the body comes from from the

Stomach? " -- and if they did, what would that prove?

 

All I can say is that both my wife and I took notes in his class and

Maciocia did make that statement and we found it to be very provocative and

insightful. Now I'm surprised Jason et al that you may not know this?

 

It brings up a lot of issues as to how do we develop our understanding of

TCM? Do you think it is only by reciting the classic by rote? -- or by

reading medical Chinese or even seeing 100 to 200 patients a day as it can

happen in China. What I've seen in many of those Chinese hospital clinics

when I was in Kunming, are somewhat bored practitioners prescribing by rote

with little or not personal interaction with patients -- that's not

Traditional so far as I am concerned. Again, even if

Maciocia were riffing what's wrong with that? Of should we suspect him of

" Msuing? " Who ever came up with that pompous acronym?

 

Can't we allow anyone with whatever level of expertise the possibility that

they may have to put forth an idea without berating their credentials? Not

that I give much of a d---n but I have an OMD bestowed for two years extra

study by the now defunct San Francisco College of Acupuncture. I know when

we heard Maciocia say that the " yin for the body originates in the stomach "

we connected strongly because it put a lot of things together all at once.

Li dong yuan's theory of nourishing yin through the Spleen which I would

include as the Stomach, observing patients with the malar flushing as a sign

of yin deficiency generally, then the profound connection of the effect of

worry and stress on the stomach which I have seen lead to spleen-liver qi

stagnation and then yin deficiency, the basic understanding at the root of

all systems of natural medicine that the vast majority of diseases begin in

the stomach.

 

If you study the history of medicine be it Eastern or Western, you can't

help but see how in all cultures medicine limits itself when it panders and

s to medical elitism. Usually it was male dominated (were their no

great Chinese women doctors?), information and ideas were conveyed in a

specialized language or jargon reserved for that purpose. It was precisely

this problem that inspired Li Shizhen to take to the hills and collect

1000's of local healing practices with herbs, animal and minerals. The kind

of TCM that we have learned was practiced by the elite on the elite and

common folk had little access to it just as today, most people are unable to

afford the highest standards of health care. The same thing happened around

the same time in England when Nicholas Culpepper violated all professional

standards and translated herbal textbooks used in universities from Latin to

vernacular English thus Culpepper's Herbal came into being.

 

You can see how the emperor's new clothes phenomenon rampant in TCM

classrooms hardly allows students and practitioners to question what

constitutes the rate of speed for a fast pulse. There are tons of those

kinds of gaps that Chinese orthodoxy does not address and students and

western practitioners seem shy to ask those kinds of questions perhaps

because they might be insulted, told that they are not qualified to have

their own opinions which by implication leads them to not ask questions.

 

So for the sake of the advancement of our profession I lobby for more

humility and openness.

 

So we learn with humility and we continue to PRACTICE medicine.

 

Reviewing Li ShiZhen's Ben Cao via the Stewart books you might take note of

the large number of herbs used by the Chinese, many classified according to

their natures and properties that are common to both the West and in China.

 

A few are: Fumitory (Fumaria officinalis (Tzu-hua-ti-ting) commonly known as

Fumitory used identically for the same purpose in both cultures, for the

liver and jaundice; Malva including various species used as a vegetable as

well as a medicinal herb in the same way for its high mucilage, soothing the

stomach and intestines, ulcers, relieving thirst, and as a pot herb; Alfalfa

(Medicago sativa) (Mu su); the most famous medicinal tree of India called

Neem (Melia azederach) -- again used for parasites, skin diseases, fevers,

inflammation, etc; Slippery Elm (Ulmus fulva) has its counterparts with a

number of elm species cited in Li Shizhen's great materia medica as Ulmus

Campestris (YU) or Ling-yu) with the inner bark used in precisely the same

way native Americans used the North American species, as a meal, for its

high mucilage and demulcent properties, etc. Violet (Viola species)

 

(Hu-chin-ts'ao) used in both Europe and China as a pot herb, also for blood

purification, even for cancer;; Castor bean (Ricinus communis) (Pei-ma);

Rosemary (Rosmarinus officinalis) called Mi Tieh Hsiang), Wild lettuce

 

(Lactuca) called Pai Chu), St Johnswort (Hypericum chinense) (Chin

ssu-ts'ao); Gotu kola (Hydrocotyle asiatica) Commonly used both in India and

China, hops (Humulus japonicus) (lu ts'ao) medicinally used in the same way

in the West and by the Chinese and many more.

 

It is hard to remember everything about an herb that one has to cram to pass

board tests. For most of us with normal to impaired memories, it is a

lifetime commitment to review this information. My former student and

Colleague studied with the greatest Nepalese Ayurvedic practitioner of the

20th century, Dr. Mana (Vaidya Mana Bajra Bajracharya). He said Dr. Mana

would spend a couple hours every morning in study before a busy clinic day.

 

I've concluded that Materia medica review is to the dedicated herbalist what

prayer beads are to an Asian monk.

 

Personally I think herbalists miss a large part of the fun of the profession

by not being able to grow, identify, harvest living medicinal plants. Just

developing a personal relationship with some plants that are used in the

clinic. There just seems to be no time for such training in most acupuncture

schools where the emphasis is on passing the board exams. There used to be.

 

In my experience all the older generation Chinese herbalists I've met, could

recognize growing living plants. While we all have our tried and true group

of herbs and formulas I encourage my students to remain curious, allow for a

certain percentage of their medicinal plants to include indigenous herbs

that may not be part of the standard materia medica also to be open to

including ideas and methods from other cultures.

 

No matter how hard we try, ultimately the majority or us will remain Western

or North American Herbalists practicing Chinese medicine so relax, it is our

destiny for better or worse to change things a bit.

 

Michael Tierra

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of

Friday, February 15, 2008 8:18 PM

 

RE: in support of creative thought in TCM

 

 

 

Yes maybe Maciocia was just riffing.. Has anyone seen this statement made in

Chinese? " All the yin in from the Stomach? "

 

This brings me to the next line of thinking. Since Maciocia does say that

" The Stomach is the origin of fluids " do people find that these two

statements lead to clinical different possibilities. For example, do people

make the distinction between yin deficiency and fluid deficiency, and if so

how? and how does their treatment change?

 

Just curious,

 

-

 

_

[Guest guest]

Michael,

In Bob Flaw's compilation of Chinese medical axioms, " Statements

of Fact in Traditional " , it says the following in the

" Stomach " chapter, page 64: " Water and grains enter the stomach,

which engenders and transforms fluids (jin) and humors (ye). And,

" fluids and humors come from the source of drink and food " . This is

very clear. " The clear of the yin are the fluids and humors, the

turbid of yin are (things) like phlegm. "

 

So, what I get from this is that the type of yin that is

transformed, not created, in the stomach, is the jin and ye, fluids

and humors, not all of the yin of the body. Yin can also include jing/

essence, ying qi/construction qi, and xue/blood, so we need to be more

specific in our expression. A generalized expression like the one

below, in my opinion, only leads to confusion and generalities that

can lead to guesswork and mistakes. But, again, I wasn't at the

seminar, so I don't know in what context Giovanni said this, or if

more explanation was given.

 

 

On Feb 14, 2008, at 1:47 AM, Michael Tierra wrote:

 

> As to the entire " yin of the body being created in the stomach " this

> was

> said by Maciocia at a seminar on Phlegm disorders. Perhaps this is his

> personal MSUing, I don't know I've never heart that before but as I

> thought

> about it, how everything good comes from the center (stomach-spleen

> - earth)

> I thought it to be a very insightful comment.

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Michael,

I don't buy what you are saying here at all . Any subject,

including Chinese medicine, needs a certain amount of precision in

order to be both operable and understandable. If someone is teaching

what we agree is Chinese medicine, it needs to be taught with clarity

of translation, sources, and enough detail to be useful clinically.

What appears to be a provocative statement becomes much less so when

we clarify that " yin " here probably means " jin-ye " , or humors and

fluids, not 'all yin' which is a pretty broad generalization when

referring to the stomach. Also, what does that mean, " all yin comes

from the stomach " ? How does that happen? Where does it go? What

kind of yin? Stomach yin? Kidney yin? Jing/essence? Ying qi/

construction qi? In order to understand this statement at all, more

detail is necessary. Why not give the statement in Chinese and/or

Pinyin as well?

 

In other words, more detail is necessary, or the statement means

nothing at all. It is just a broad and ultimately meaningless

generalization.

 

What Jason is saying, I think, is that teachers do have the

responsibility of clarity of transmission of material, and letting

students know what is their own (teacher's) ideas, insights, as

distinct from that of the medical tradition. It is true of Chinese

medicine, and it is true of any other academic subject, including

musical composition and astronomy.

 

The importance of clarity in teaching becomes evident when you

teach at the classroom level as I've done, forty-one weeks a year, two

or three classes a week, for the last eighteen years. At the CM

college level, you learn about clarity of sources, transmission, and

application, there is no room for generalities or obfuscation.

 

Your examples of bored interns, or 'reciting by rote' have nothing

to do with the central issue here. No one, Jason, myself or Bob, is

suggesting boredom, rote learning or reciting classics, as an answer.

 

 

 

On Feb 16, 2008, at 4:54 PM, Michael Tierra wrote:

 

> Jason said, " Yes maybe Maciocia was just riffing.. Has anyone seen

> this

> statement made in Chinese? " All the yin of the body comes from from

> the

> Stomach? " -- and if they did, what would that prove?

>

> All I can say is that both my wife and I took notes in his class and

> Maciocia did make that statement and we found it to be very

> provocative and

> insightful. Now I'm surprised Jason et al that you may not know this?

>

> It brings up a lot of issues as to how do we develop our

> understanding of

> TCM? Do you think it is only by reciting the classic by rote? -- or by

> reading medical Chinese or even seeing 100 to 200 patients a day as

> it can

> happen in China. What I've seen in many of those Chinese hospital

> clinics

> when I was in Kunming, are somewhat bored practitioners prescribing

> by rote

> with little or not personal interaction with patients -- that's not

> Traditional so far as I am concerned. Again, even if

> Maciocia were riffing what's wrong with that? Of should we suspect

> him of

> " Msuing? " Who ever came up with that pompous acronym?

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Michael,

 

99.9% of my CM learning is done in Chinese, and I started reading Chinese

medical texts since the mid-70's.

 

No, I have not read something like this in Chinese without qalifiers. What

Z'ev quoted of Bob Flaw's compilation is a direct translation of honored Chinese

texts.

 

Of course, I am only one of a few billions.

 

If the statement is universally true (meaning, without limiting to a

particular context, as Z'ev mentioned) it's easy to disprove. Does kidney yin

come from stomach?

 

I have no doubut you indeed have it in your note of the lecture. I'd rather

spending time and energy on classical texts than validating MM's statements.

 

Mike L.

Michael Tierra <mtierra wrote:

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[Guest guest]

Michael,

 

 

 

This statement is a little confusing to me. Are you referring to yinfire?

Could you explain this?

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Michael Tierra

 

Li dong yuan's theory of nourishing yin through the Spleen which I would

include as the Stomach, observing patients with the malar flushing as a sign

of yin deficiency generally,

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

But the gall bladder is called an extraordinary fu, It is called " the

mansion of the central essence " , which is bile. In " Statement of

Facts of " , it says the following about extraordinary

fu/bowels: " They seem like viscera, but are not viscera, they seem

like bowels, but are not bowels. Their form is like a bowel, but

their function is like a viscus. "

 

 

On Feb 17, 2008, at 6:26 AM, Cara Frank wrote:

 

> But I disagree. In fact- the ultimate

> distillation of the pure essence of food and fluid metabolism is

> bile, which

> is stored in, yes, a fu organ.

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Michael et all (see below)

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Michael Tierra

 

 

[M]It brings up a lot of issues as to how do we develop our understanding of

TCM? Do you think it is only by reciting the classic by rote? -- or by

reading medical Chinese or even seeing 100 to 200 patients a day as it can

happen in China. What I've seen in many of those Chinese hospital clinics

when I was in Kunming, are somewhat bored practitioners prescribing by rote

with little or not personal interaction with patients -- that's not

Traditional so far as I am concerned.

 

 

 

I agree, but this is far from the point, and furthermore has not been my

experience in China.

 

[M]Again, even if

Maciocia were riffing what's wrong with that?

 

 

 

Hhhmmm. Incorrect theory..?? But at this point it just a game of telephone.

That is why we have resources, like books, to reference things. Class notes

and lectures are notorious for errors. I think it is telling that GM does

not include this statement (that you heard) in his books.

 

[M] Of should we suspect him of

" Msuing? "

 

 

 

Everything needs to be verified, even with someone with an " extra 2 years of

study. " He might of just said something wrong. Or maybe the context was

something else. Either way somehow you heard something that resonated with

you, and this theory somehow substantiated your idea of wumei. But it

resulted in an incorrect view of what wumei does.

 

 

[M] Can't we allow anyone with whatever level of expertise the possibility

that

they may have to put forth an idea without berating their credentials?

 

 

 

Anyone can put forth any idea they want.. but we must have a criteria to

evaluate it. I think Bob Flaws summed it pretty well.

 

[M]I know when we heard Maciocia say that the " yin for the body originates

in the stomach "

we connected strongly because it put a lot of things together all at once.

 

 

 

Connecting with it does not make it so.

 

 

[M] Li dong yuan's theory of nourishing yin through the Spleen which I would

include as the Stomach,

 

 

 

Spleen and Stomach are different and many times require different treatment

strategies.

 

[M], the basic understanding at the root of all systems of natural medicine

that the vast majority of diseases begin in

the stomach.

 

 

 

Untrue.. CM has many thoughts on disease pathologies, etiologies, and

pathomechanisms.

 

[M] If you study the history of medicine be it Eastern or Western, you can't

help but see how in all cultures medicine limits itself when it panders and

s to medical elitism. Usually it was male dominated (were their no

great Chinese women doctors?), information and ideas were conveyed in a

specialized language or jargon reserved for that purpose. It was precisely

this problem that inspired Li Shizhen to take to the hills and collect

1000's of local healing practices with herbs, animal and minerals. The kind

of TCM that we have learned was practiced by the elite on the elite and

common folk had little access to it just as today,

 

 

 

Untrue, there are many doctors throughout Chinese history that were from the

people and for the people. It is not just an elite medicine. Furthermore, I

find nothing limiting about CM, there is a wealth of information.

 

 

[M] You can see how the emperor's new clothes phenomenon rampant in TCM

classrooms hardly allows students and practitioners to question what

constitutes the rate of speed for a fast pulse. There are tons of those

kinds of gaps that Chinese orthodoxy does not address and students and

western practitioners seem shy to ask those kinds of questions perhaps

because they might be insulted, told that they are not qualified to have

their own opinions which by implication leads them to not ask questions.

 

 

 

This is not my experience. Students are always encouraged to ask questions,

and they do. They are NOT encouraged to start making up theory when answers

to there questions can be found elsewhere. There are so many resources in

English and Chinese to answer questions. One has a choice search through

them or act like they don't exist and start MSUing. Your choice.

 

 

[M]Reviewing Li ShiZhen's Ben Cao via the Stewart books you might take note

of

the large number of herbs used by the Chinese, many classified according to

their natures and properties that are common to both the West and in China.

 

A few are: Fumitory (Fumaria officinalis (Tzu-hua-ti-ting) commonly known as

Fumitory used identically for the same purpose in both cultures, for the

liver and jaundice; Malva including various species used as a vegetable as

well as a medicinal herb in the same way for its high mucilage, soothing the

stomach and intestines, ulcers, relieving thirst, and as a pot herb; Alfalfa

(Medicago sativa) (Mu su); the most famous medicinal tree of India called

Neem (Melia azederach) -- again used for parasites, skin diseases, fevers,

inflammation, etc; Slippery Elm (Ulmus fulva) has its counterparts with a

number of elm species cited in Li Shizhen's great materia medica as Ulmus

Campestris (YU) or Ling-yu) with the inner bark used in precisely the same

way native Americans used the North American species, as a meal, for its

high mucilage and demulcent properties, etc. Violet (Viola species)

 

(Hu-chin-ts'ao) used in both Europe and China as a pot herb, also for blood

purification, even for cancer;; Castor bean (Ricinus communis) (Pei-ma);

Rosemary (Rosmarinus officinalis) called Mi Tieh Hsiang), Wild lettuce

 

(Lactuca) called Pai Chu), St Johnswort (Hypericum chinense) (Chin

ssu-ts'ao); Gotu kola (Hydrocotyle asiatica) Commonly used both in India and

China, hops (Humulus japonicus) (lu ts'ao) medicinally used in the same way

in the West and by the Chinese and many more.

 

 

 

As far as your Li Shi Zhen rant. It would be nice to show us something we

can use from this text. Pick one herb and present it. Saying an herb treats

skin diseases and fevers is utterly useless. I cannot find the herbs you

mention it my Chinese texts, maybe you can present the Chinese. However, a

1-2 line mention in any text is not enough to use it clinically, as

previously stated we need case studies, formulas, herbal combinations etc.

to use it effectively. I think it is telling that you don't see these herbs

(you mention) in prescriptions of that time (or today's time). I have my

ideas why, what do you think?

 

 

[M] No matter how hard we try, ultimately the majority or us will remain

Western

or North American Herbalists practicing Chinese medicine so relax, it is our

destiny for better or worse to change things a bit.

 

 

 

This is so untrue. Times have changes. The education level is dramatically

higher than in the past. We have access to classical as well as modern text

in English, and if you are fluent in Chinese the limits are endless. I

consider myself a Chinese medicine herbalist. I write bulk formulas for

almost all of my patients, in an identical fashion as done in China. I have

no desire to integrate some half-cocked idea (based on a 2 line monograph)

about some western herb into my Chinese formulas when there are mounds of

information on the Chinese medicinals that I see routinely used in China.

Although things always evolve and change, we can shape the way this happens.

We can base our evolution on MSU theory, because we do not take the time to

actually learn the foundation, or we can root ourselves in what has worked

for so many years and then expand.

 

 

 

Of course we could all stop trying to read classic texts (gaining insight

and clinical strategies) from the great doctors of the past, ignore the

great doctors of the present who end-up seeing sometimes 100+ people in a

day (because they are so good), and throw out those 'communist' textbooks.

This would put us all one the same playing field. No one would be wrong.

Everyone could have their own ideas about theory, and have an equal say in

what is 'true' in Chinese medicine. This sounds very unappealing to me.

 

 

 

Any 3rd year student can riff on CM theory, but it does make it so, nor

clinically effective.

 

 

 

Respectfully,

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

That is true- I was referring to the fact that it is the yang pair to the

liver ( yin) organ

Cara O. Frank, R.OM, Dipl Ac & Ch.H.

Six Fishes Healing Arts &

President China Herb Company of the Chinese Herb Program

Tai Sophia Institute of the Healing Arts

215-772-0770

 

 

 

 

<zrosenbe

 

Sun, 17 Feb 2008 07:45:04 -0800

 

Re: in support of creative thought in TCM

 

 

 

 

 

But the gall bladder is called an extraordinary fu, It is called " the

mansion of the central essence " , which is bile. In " Statement of

Facts of " , it says the following about extraordinary

fu/bowels: " They seem like viscera, but are not viscera, they seem

like bowels, but are not bowels. Their form is like a bowel, but

their function is like a viscus. "

 

 

On Feb 17, 2008, at 6:26 AM, Cara Frank wrote:

 

> But I disagree. In fact- the ultimate

> distillation of the pure essence of food and fluid metabolism is

> bile, which

> is stored in, yes, a fu organ.

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

[Guest guest]

Jason et al.

 

When it comes to Chinese medicine, there is no such thing as the 'last

word'. -- from Bensky's Materia medica at the end of the introduction.

 

Perhaps you or some others might clarify -- if Yin doesn't come from Fluids

and blood, where does it come from?

 

As to the question whether or not the Stomach is regarded as the place where

the vast majority of diseases emanate, I would refer to Chapter one of Li

dong Yuan's Treatise on the Spleen and Stomach -- (English translation

published by Blue Poppy) -- it is stated on page 8

" One the spleen and stomach are damaged, the concomitant five turmoils will

arise. " ' --

 

next paragraph,

 

" In the classics, the sage concludes that the stomach qi is the root of

humanity.

 

On page 11, " Without vacuity evil present, thieving evils )from the outside)

alone can do no harm to people. (this sounds like he's referring to the

immune system don't you think?) -- Thus it is evident that disease starts

from the spleen and stomach. " -- which you seem to not understand.

 

 

 

 

As far as your Li Shi Zhen rant. It would be nice to show us something we

can use from this text. Pick one herb and present it. Saying an herb treats

skin diseases and fevers is utterly useless. I cannot find the herbs you

mention it my Chinese texts, maybe you can present the Chinese. However, a

1-2 line mention in any text is not enough to use it clinically, as

previously stated we need case studies, formulas, herbal combinations etc.

to use it effectively. I think it is telling that you don't see these herbs

(you mention) in prescriptions of that time (or today's time). I have my

ideas why, what do you think?

 

As an aside, Jason, I know this has been an unintended but somewhat

challenging discussion because you have taken up the banner to defend TCM

orthodoxy. I know you have many who agree with your point of view but I also

have many who agree with my own. I don't think that all the pronouncements

of TCM are so black and white that they don't admit of some interpretation,

musing and 'riffing' -- I like that it shows our mutual love of jazz. I like

riffs, don't you? (just being a little facetious -- no offense intended).

 

However: looking up the definition of the word " rant " :

 

n 1: a loud bombastic declamation expressed with strong emotion

[syn: harangue <http://dictionary.die.net/harangue> , ranting

<http://dictionary.die.net/ranting> ]

2: pompous or pretentious talk or writing [syn: bombast

<http://dictionary.die.net/bombast> , fustian

<http://dictionary.die.net/fustian> ,

claptrap <http://dictionary.die.net/claptrap> , blah

<http://dictionary.die.net/blah> ]

v : talk in a noisy, excited, or declamatory manner [syn: mouth

<http://dictionary.die.net/mouth%20off>

off <http://dictionary.die.net/mouth%20off> , jabber

<http://dictionary.die.net/jabber> , spout <http://dictionary.die.net/spout>

, rabbit on <http://dictionary.die.net/rabbit%20on> , rave

<http://dictionary.die.net/rave> ]

I wonder which of these definitions you mean to apply to me? (please don't

say all of them and could there be a bit of a 'rant' in your submissions as

well?

--- I'm curious what 'materia medica' you use? -- and are those the only

herbs that you allow in your practice? -- have you heard that China today,

many Chinese doctors working in various hospitals prefer the use of local

indigenous herbs that are not part of the standard materia medica for their

treatments?

 

I also presume that you have heard of the herb now famous in Western world,

called St Johnswort, Hypericum perfoliatum). It is described in Li Shizhen's

book or at least the rough English translation from it by a 19th century

English missionary published in the Series by G.A. Stuart.

On page 211 in the Vegetable Kingdom volume, Hypericum is briefly described.

In the Cloudburst edition of the Barefoot doctor manual where many local

herbs are used that go beyond the standard imperial medica so that itinerant

doctors would deliver medicine to the people (who presumably were not served

by more skilled TCM doctors) Hypericum is described on page 223, named

" Yuan-pao Ts'ao " .

 

It is cold, bitter to taste, cools the blood to sop bleeding, alleviates

pain and knits the bones, breaks down blood and injures the fetus,

stimulates blood circulation and detoxifies, kills worms. --- most of which

seems to conform to Western usage of this herb for healing wounds, relieving

pain -- especially nerve pain -- thus its use for central nervous system

diseases.

 

It is used in TCM for !. incomplete breakout of measles rash, 2. bacterial

dysentery, diarrhea, 3. mastitis, poisonous snakebites, various infections

and swellings, 4. Hematemesis, epitasis, burns, cuts 5. menstrual

irregularities, traumatic injuries, backache.

 

St Johnswort may well be growing fresh and wild in a place near you -- was

this sufficient information for you to use it? -- just curious -- do you

want more. Perhaps if this discussion seemed a bit more respectful, I'd be

more inclined to share more with you and others.

 

As it has gone so far, I feel that I have confronted a well entrenched small

but high visible group who tend to dominate the discussion and based on more

supportive private emails I've received from a few others, I think are shy

to offer their opinions for fear of being humiliated and hit over the head

by what I see as narrow TCM orthodoxy.

 

The reason you don't see these non official herbs in prescriptions of the

time is because of the dislocate between the imperial practice of TCM and

the practice that was and is occurring in rural villages throughout China. I

think one would have to be naive to think differently.

 

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Shizhen "

 

Li Shih-Chen, <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1518> 1518¨C

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1593> 1593),

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtesy_name> courtesy name Dongbi (¶«èµ),

was one of the greatest <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physician> physicians

and <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmacologist> pharmacologists in

Chinese history. His major contribution to medicine was his forty-year work,

which is found in his epic book the Bencao Gangmu

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bencao_Gangmu> . He is also considered to be

the greatest naturalist of China, and was very interested in the proper

classification of herb components.

 

The book has details about more than 1,800 drugs (

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Medicine> ), including

1,100 illustrations and 11,000 prescriptions. It also described the type,

form, flavor, nature and application in disease treatments of 1,094

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbs> herbs. "

 

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Shizhen>

It seemed that Li may have been greatly influences by his grandfather " who

had been a doctor who traveled the countryside and was considered relatively

low on the social scale of the time. "

 

Later is says: " In his government position, Li was able to read many rare

medical books; he also saw the disorder, mistakes, and conflicting

information that were serious problems in most medical publications of the

time and soon began the Bencao Gangmu to compile correct information with a

logical of organization. "

 

I guess even by the 16th century with most of the great classics having been

written, some thoughtful doctors such as Li Shizhen recognized their

limitation -- enough for him to give a lifetime to study and collecting

information from over 800 books and firsthand from travels to rural and

mountain villages.

 

Finally it states:

" The Bencao Gangmu contained nearly 1,900 substances, which included 374

that had not appeared in other works. Not only did it list and describe the

substances, but it also included prescriptions for use ¨C about 11,000 -

8,000 of which were not well known. " Certainly not well known by you or I

and depending on one's openness not likely to be appreciated by TCM

orthodoxy.

 

Michael Tierra

www.planetherbs.com

 

 

 

 

 

 

_____

 

<< ella for Spam Control >> has removed 5359 Spam messages and set aside

3273 Newsletters for me

You can use it too - and it's FREE! www.ellaforspam.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

St Johnswort, Hypericum perfoliatum: Pinyin name: Guan Ye Lian Qiao

 

 

 

 

 

Christine W Chang, DAOM, LAc.,

 

___________

On page 211 in the Vegetable Kingdom volume, Hypericum is briefly described.

In the Cloudburst edition of the Barefoot doctor manual where many local

herbs are used that go beyond the standard imperial medica so that itinerant

doctors would deliver medicine to the people (who presumably were not served

by more skilled TCM doctors) Hypericum is described on page 223, named

" Yuan-pao Ts'ao " .

 

It is cold, bitter to taste, cools the blood to sop bleeding, alleviates

pain and knits the bones, breaks down blood and injures the fetus,

stimulates blood circulation and detoxifies, kills worms. --- most of which

seems to conform to Western usage of this herb for healing wounds, relieving

pain -- especially nerve pain -- thus its use for central nervous system

diseases.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Greetings,

I have been following this discussion of the value of preserving the

heart of and offer these ideas.

I am all for those who are into delving into the classics,

translating, interpreting, and preserving this knowledge, and

integrating it into a modern culture. This is sorely needed in that CM

is being diluted by TCM (a communist creation) and westernization

(medical acupuncture, standardization, insurance based, evidence based

treatment). CM is also being absorbed into new age fantasies and

fascination with earth based cultures and rituals that seem to provide

meaning and purpose so lacking in our materialistic culture. So I

truly and deeply appreciate their efforts to further the informational

base. When I was in school in the nineties, I was at a highly regarded

school with Chinese practitioners, and got good grades, but felt I

learned little, and was confused about much. For instance is twisting

a needle clockwise or counterclockwise tonification? It would boil

down to which authority was more believable, and no rational

explanation for why. Anybody can claim to be a qigong master, and any

native american can claim to be a medicine man. As I later found out

from an immigration lawyer, some of these 'esteemed' Chinese doctors,

who wasted my time by reading out of a book to the class, found a

convenient way to emigrate to America and make lots of money. So I

fully understand the need to preserve the science and culture of CM.

But, the rancor created in these discussions, that their following of

tradition is the only true way, reminds me of Christians believing

that their form of Christianity is the only true way.

In the end, CM is an energetic philosophy and a clinical action, in

which theory and rational thought is only one (valuable) part. So many

other variables come into play--quality of attention, diagnostic

feeling/sensing skills, passion, mental focus, intent, energy level,

etc. If these are not present in the clinical setting, all the theory

in the world doesn't mean much. From my experience, our present

culture is lacking in these sensorial qualities, as well as lacking in

the ability to slow down enough to really think.

 

Another idea that I would like to introduce is, who is to say that we

in this present time and raised in a different culture, are the same

people that the ancient chinese observed over the time period during

creation of SHL. Are the herbs the same today, as in that time, or

have they evolved?

What is the effect of a different language, different world views,

different spiritual views on the person? Maybe some of these ancient

ideas, are, I dare to say, archaic? Diseases then and diseases now may

have different etiologies. Then was more environmental stress--cold

houses, physical overwork, lack of sanitation. Now, internal causes,

chronic stress, excesses of food, lack of connection to earth and

life, no sense of purpose, and failed belief systems. How much

connection is there to an ancient individual going to his local CM

practitioner (whether that be an herbalist, acupuncturist or some

other type which is all rolled up into one in present day) and

receiving local, homegown raw herbs, cooking and taking/tasting them,

and a modern person, who goes to a commercial establishment for an

appointment with some 'professional' that they may not even pay for

(insurance based) and take an industrially created extract/pill of

foreign origin? Regarding present day practice, in the wind cold/wind

heat discussion, Jake Fratkin lectured, that in his experience, the

cahnge from wind cold to wind heat happens so fast in present day,

that he treats for wind heat, even when clinical signs don't show

heat. His hypothesis is weak immune system, from modern chronic

stress, and overload of foreign industrial chemicals.

The pulse work of Dr. Shen and Dr. Hammer, are finding pulse qualities

in present day not recorded or seen in ancient times. The idea of a

pulse from external cold, is probably past, in that the poorest person

today lives in conditions superior to the ancient Chinese emperor.

 

Just some thoughts from a practitioner that has no claim to being an

expert. I had a successful practice and gave it up so that I would

have the time to delve into this issue of CM and the true meaning of

healing in the modern day.

Sincerely,

Ron Holmes

[Guest guest]

Dear Mr. Holmes,

and respectfully to all writers,

 

Thank you so very much. And another reminder-example for just my own

experience, perhaps, of hearing just the right thing at just the right time!

 

Second-year student,

C. Rae