Guest guest Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Jimmy Wei-Yen Chang, L.Ac., is a brilliant TCM clinician who specializes in a system of pulse diagnosis that contradicts and has basically little or no historical precedent. So far as I was able to discern he figured it out for himself. The problem is that if he diagnosis a kidney stone and one does not find it with conventional medical treatment but he may still get a positive result -- how does this compute. I noticed that he will prescribe several different formulas for each patient -- not deriding the practice because I believe in this as well, this could be a little bit shotgun approach where the results are not necessarily congruent with the accuracy of the diagnosis. Not fully understanding his system as yet, it may be possible that pulse diagnosis in his practice is a little like iris diagnosis used to be when I studied with Dr. Christopher in the early 1970's. He prescribed a premade formula for just about every 'system' in the body and at a low consistent does accompanied with some rather drastic dietary changes, most people experienced positive benefit -- at least in the short run. It goes back to what used to be my favorite formula when people would ask what herb (s) they should take for a conglomeration of imbalances and systems. It was " any herb " because herbs, even the wrong herb at least has the possibility of stimulating change and if the body's innate homeostatic potential is intact the bet is that it will correct to normalcy. If it doesn't -- oh well. I highly recommend Jimmy Chang's pulse classes presented by Lotus but it begs the question to what extent it is rooted in tradition of pulse diagnosis as opposed to his own 'creative' interpretation and methodology. The point here is that there must be room for creative and original utilization of the various aspects of TCM or it will simply die. Most of us are Western practitioners practicing and trying to understand TCM and I for one am profoundly grateful to the teachings and work of Bob Flaws, Maciocia and Bensky to name three 'star's in my TCM skies however we should be open to the possibilities of other things, creative applications and so forth and not get too locked in. I've given up ever expecting to know all there is to know about TCM or having absolute mastery even of the most basic principles. That doesn't mean I don't keep trying but I also don't feel so locked in that apple cider vinegar for GERD as an example or Shirodhara for central nervous system disorders, Arjuna for cardiovascular disease, echinacea for bacterial infections is not part of my Planetary herbal practice. Allow me to recommend that you check out Lotus seminar with Jimmy Chang at http://www.elotus.org/monthly_articles/article_2008_3_0202.html Michael Tierra www.planetherbs.com <http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=201013/grpspId=1705060815/msgId= 41909/stime=1202854664/nc1=5191951/nc2=5191945/nc3=4025373> _____ << ella for Spam Control >> has removed 5281 Spam messages and set aside 3249 Newsletters for me You can use it too - and it's FREE! www.ellaforspam.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Michael, I don't think study and referencing the classical literature of Chinese medicine is inconsistent with creativity. All the great teachers I've known and studied with do just that. Michael Broffman, for one, has developed a very original system of pulse diagnosis and treatment from the Nan Jing that is very contemporary and treats the most complex autoimmune disorders. I've spent many years studying this system directly from the Nan Jing itself. Teachers such as Jimmy Chang, and John Shen did develop highly original systems of practice and thought, but although they appear to be very empirically based (i.e. clinical), they are also very likely based on their own study of the classical literature. John Shen basically rewrote six channel pattern differentiation in a new way. I don't know Jimmy Chang that well, but I'm a firm believer that there is 'nothing new under the sun', only new ways of presenting old things. On Feb 12, 2008, at 5:50 PM, Michael Tierra wrote: > > Jimmy Wei-Yen Chang, L.Ac., is a brilliant TCM clinician who > specializes in > a system of pulse diagnosis that contradicts and has basically > little or no > historical precedent. So far as I was able to discern he figured it > out for > himself. The problem is that if he diagnosis a kidney stone and one > does not > find it with conventional medical treatment but he may still get a > positive > result -- how does this compute. I noticed that he will prescribe > several > different formulas for each patient -- not deriding the practice > because I > believe in this as well, this could be a little bit shotgun approach > where > the results are not necessarily congruent with the accuracy of the > diagnosis. > > I highly recommend Jimmy Chang's pulse classes presented by Lotus > but it > begs the question to what extent it is rooted in tradition of pulse > diagnosis as opposed to his own 'creative' interpretation and > methodology. > > The point here is that there must be room for creative and original > utilization of the various aspects of TCM or it will simply die. > Most of us > are Western practitioners practicing and trying to understand TCM > and I for > one am profoundly grateful to the teachings and work of Bob Flaws, > Maciocia > and Bensky to name three 'star's in my TCM skies however we should > be open > to the possibilities of other things, creative applications and so > forth and > not get too locked in. I've given up ever expecting to know all > there is to > know about TCM or having absolute mastery even of the most basic > principles. > That doesn't mean I don't keep trying but I also don't feel so > locked in > that apple cider vinegar for GERD as an example or Shirodhara for > central > nervous system disorders, Arjuna for cardiovascular disease, > echinacea for > bacterial infections is not part of my Planetary herbal practice. > > Allow me to recommend that you check out Lotus seminar with Jimmy > Chang at > http://www.elotus.org/monthly_articles/article_2008_3_0202.html > > Michael Tierra > > www.planetherbs.com > > <http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=201013/grpspId=1705060815/msgId= > 41909/stime=1202854664/nc1=5191951/nc2=5191945/nc3=4025373> > > > _____ > > << ella for Spam Control >> has removed 5281 Spam messages and set > aside > 3249 Newsletters for me > You can use it too - and it's FREE! www.ellaforspam.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Michael, I have also studied with Jimmy Chang and find his work fascinating. However, I do NOT think he is just making things up. For example, his style of prescribing is common in Taiwan (where he is from) etc. Usually these people have a long history of study and integration, something we lack here in the West. Just being able to pass the test and practice in Taiwan puts one's CM knowledge at a fairly high level. I do think, though, someone like yourself recommending things like apple cider vinegar for GERD is much different than a less experienced practitioners making up CM attributes and theory for who knows what. I think your information is great and can't wait to try it. You have a wealth of knowledge and I am the first to welcome it. My concerns have little to do with such recommendations. Although, I do think it is useful to distinguish where ideas come from, i.e. clinical practice, one's teacher, a classic text etc. All ultimately must be verified. However, I guess we agree to disagree, you think we should be free-thinking and add lib as we see fit. I vote for more roots in tradition. I think we both agree that integrating other modalities and ideas is extremely worthwhile. But when it comes to actual CM; it really is a vast ocean. I just don't see the need to start creating alterative theories and ideas, at least not in my point in life :-). I see a couple options to a the common problem of not being able to find a solution to a case or condition, one can 1) look at other traditions 2) make up some theory and cross their fingers, or 3) dive deeper into CM. I don't know how many cases I have found answers to by reading people like Ye Tian-Shi, Zhang-Ji, Xue Sheng-Bai, Wu Ju-Tong, Qin Bo-Wei etc. (Answer: A lot!) So I want to encourage people to explore the ocean before thinking CM does not have the solution. However, I think it is faulty to think that a mere TCM education in the states gives us enough education to really practice medicine. This buys us a ticket to the concert. Further study is required, especially to get the floor or 'front row'. There is a simple choice, one can make up what is not there, or look into the ocean. I prefer to not try to re-invent the wheel. Finally, Michael says TCM will die without this license to MSU (make stuff up) / " creative utilization. " I disagree. Based on our average level of knowledge in the West, I don't think that people have firm foundation to be able to make up correct correlations. Especially when only based on a few patients, or some whacky idea they came up while smoking who knows what. Therefore what they create will either be faulty based on lack of skill or a hybrid system that weakens the roots of CM. Hybrid systems do not preserve CM. This is very clear from what is happening now in China. I find that CM will die if we don't actually put the time in to learn it. It is much harder learn to properly differentiate diseases and understand multiple theories (i.e. shang han and wen bing) that seem to be in opposition. I think it is a shame that schools teach classes in supplements, homeopathy, tuning forks, plant spirit medicine and the likes. These short cut systems have little with CM, little depth, and take away from the precious time for students to actually learn what they came their for -CM. It also gives the false impression that CM cannot handle certain problems. This is compounded by teachers who have not explored CM deeply telling the students that one must use " all the tricks out their. " This in no way preserves CM! (Just for the record, I do think there are useful tools outside of CM, and some of these are better than what CM can offer. However, this line gets blurred when one has actually never dove in deep.) CM is much harder than tricks learned at a seminar. However, the payoff is immense. - _____ On Behalf Of Michael Tierra Tuesday, February 12, 2008 6:51 PM expanding tradition Jimmy Wei-Yen Chang, L.Ac., is a brilliant TCM clinician who specializes in a system of pulse diagnosis that contradicts and has basically little or no historical precedent. So far as I was able to discern he figured it out for himself. The problem is that if he diagnosis a kidney stone and one does not find it with conventional medical treatment but he may still get a positive result -- how does this compute. I noticed that he will prescribe several different formulas for each patient -- not deriding the practice because I believe in this as well, this could be a little bit shotgun approach where the results are not necessarily congruent with the accuracy of the diagnosis. Not fully understanding his system as yet, it may be possible that pulse diagnosis in his practice is a little like iris diagnosis used to be when I studied with Dr. Christopher in the early 1970's. He prescribed a premade formula for just about every 'system' in the body and at a low consistent does accompanied with some rather drastic dietary changes, most people experienced positive benefit -- at least in the short run. It goes back to what used to be my favorite formula when people would ask what herb (s) they should take for a conglomeration of imbalances and systems. It was " any herb " because herbs, even the wrong herb at least has the possibility of stimulating change and if the body's innate homeostatic potential is intact the bet is that it will correct to normalcy. If it doesn't -- oh well. I highly recommend Jimmy Chang's pulse classes presented by Lotus but it begs the question to what extent it is rooted in tradition of pulse diagnosis as opposed to his own 'creative' interpretation and methodology. The point here is that there must be room for creative and original utilization of the various aspects of TCM or it will simply die. Most of us are Western practitioners practicing and trying to understand TCM and I for one am profoundly grateful to the teachings and work of Bob Flaws, Maciocia and Bensky to name three 'star's in my TCM skies however we should be open to the possibilities of other things, creative applications and so forth and not get too locked in. I've given up ever expecting to know all there is to know about TCM or having absolute mastery even of the most basic principles. That doesn't mean I don't keep trying but I also don't feel so locked in that apple cider vinegar for GERD as an example or Shirodhara for central nervous system disorders, Arjuna for cardiovascular disease, echinacea for bacterial infections is not part of my Planetary herbal practice. Allow me to recommend that you check out Lotus seminar with Jimmy Chang at http://www.elotus. <http://www.elotus.org/monthly_articles/article_2008_3_0202.html> org/monthly_articles/article_2008_3_0202.html Michael Tierra www.planetherbs.com <http://geo.. <http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=201013/grpspId=1705060815/msgId= > com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=201013/grpspId=1705060815/msgId= 41909/stime=1202854664/nc1=5191951/nc2=5191945/nc3=4025373> _____ << ella for Spam Control >> has removed 5281 Spam messages and set aside 3249 Newsletters for me You can use it too - and it's FREE! www.ellaforspam.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Z'ev, Michael, and group, I was wondering if you could say a few words about what is now happening in the herbal medicine field, with the recently created plant spirit medicine? I think this based on 5-element. BTW - anyone interested in spirit and emotions in CM, should check out an interview that Z'ev did with Bob Flaws on Blue poppy's website. I think it sums things up fairly well, and speaks to this idea of integration and MSUing. Further comments? -Jason _____ On Behalf Of Tuesday, February 12, 2008 8:26 PM Re: expanding tradition Michael, I don't think study and referencing the classical literature of Chinese medicine is inconsistent with creativity. All the great teachers I've known and studied with do just that. Michael Broffman, for one, has developed a very original system of pulse diagnosis and treatment from the Nan Jing that is very contemporary and treats the most complex autoimmune disorders. I've spent many years studying this system directly from the Nan Jing itself. Teachers such as Jimmy Chang, and John Shen did develop highly original systems of practice and thought, but although they appear to be very empirically based (i.e. clinical), they are also very likely based on their own study of the classical literature. John Shen basically rewrote six channel pattern differentiation in a new way. I don't know Jimmy Chang that well, but I'm a firm believer that there is 'nothing new under the sun', only new ways of presenting old things. On Feb 12, 2008, at 5:50 PM, Michael Tierra wrote: > > Jimmy Wei-Yen Chang, L.Ac., is a brilliant TCM clinician who > specializes in > a system of pulse diagnosis that contradicts and has basically > little or no > historical precedent. So far as I was able to discern he figured it > out for > himself. The problem is that if he diagnosis a kidney stone and one > does not > find it with conventional medical treatment but he may still get a > positive > result -- how does this compute. I noticed that he will prescribe > several > different formulas for each patient -- not deriding the practice > because I > believe in this as well, this could be a little bit shotgun approach > where > the results are not necessarily congruent with the accuracy of the > diagnosis. > > I highly recommend Jimmy Chang's pulse classes presented by Lotus > but it > begs the question to what extent it is rooted in tradition of pulse > diagnosis as opposed to his own 'creative' interpretation and > methodology. > > The point here is that there must be room for creative and original > utilization of the various aspects of TCM or it will simply die. > Most of us > are Western practitioners practicing and trying to understand TCM > and I for > one am profoundly grateful to the teachings and work of Bob Flaws, > Maciocia > and Bensky to name three 'star's in my TCM skies however we should > be open > to the possibilities of other things, creative applications and so > forth and > not get too locked in. I've given up ever expecting to know all > there is to > know about TCM or having absolute mastery even of the most basic > principles. > That doesn't mean I don't keep trying but I also don't feel so > locked in > that apple cider vinegar for GERD as an example or Shirodhara for > central > nervous system disorders, Arjuna for cardiovascular disease, > echinacea for > bacterial infections is not part of my Planetary herbal practice. > > Allow me to recommend that you check out Lotus seminar with Jimmy > Chang at > http://www.elotus. <http://www.elotus.org/monthly_articles/article_2008_3_0202.html> org/monthly_articles/article_2008_3_0202.html > > Michael Tierra > > www.planetherbs.com > > <http://geo.. <http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=201013/grpspId=1705060815/msgId= > com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=201013/grpspId=1705060815/msgId= > 41909/stime=1202854664/nc1=5191951/nc2=5191945/nc3=4025373> > > > _____ > > << ella for Spam Control >> has removed 5281 Spam messages and set > aside > 3249 Newsletters for me > You can use it too - and it's FREE! www.ellaforspam.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 , " " wrote: > > Z'ev, Michael, and group, > > > > I was wondering if you could say a few words about what is now happening in > the herbal medicine field, with the recently created plant spirit medicine? > I think this based on 5-element. > > Greetings Group, I have been following this discussion between the 'traditionalists' and the 'new creationalists' for want of better labels. I find that both have value--what I don't find valuable is: 1. Those who scoff at one point of view as irrelevant or silly. 2. Those who's ego or personality gets in the way. 3. Particularly annoying is those posters who apparently don't have the time to compose a post, and use abbreviations that few can recognize. I suspect they fall under number 2 above. In regards to plant spirit medicine. My first contact with this was a book by Eliot Cowan, published in 1995. Though he has a five element/acupuncturist background, the basis of this work is the Huichol Indian shamanistic tradition. (Anybody read Carlos Castenada from the 60's?). I don't know enough about the classics of CM to know if there is a similar teaching. The basics of plant spirit medicine is that each plant has a spirit. One contacts that plant spirit through meditation, and that plant spirit teaches you. It becomes an ally, and a healer might need only a couple of these herbal allies to treat any problem. So this might be something that Michael from Santa Cruz might employ in his practice. (Please don't think this as an attack). Ron Holmes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 I really enjoyed reading your response and it is very well put. Finally, I do think we agree far more than we may seem to disagree. As to Jimmy Chang 'pulsology', you may be right but he's not presenting it that way and he and his assistant, Tina, said that it was based on his personal observations. I didn't know about the Taiwanese approach to prescribing multiple formulas. That was interesting to me as well. It seems in contrast to the mainland TCM approach which is to create one prescription modified to encompass all the signs and symptoms of the patient. I almost always give more than one and sometimes as many as three or four herbal formulas in different forms, powdered extract, pills, tinctures, tea, etc. My justification is that in China the dose in a tea can be very high and so I consider that the sum total of all the herbs I give in a program approaches that standard but in a different way. I'd like to share a couple of them and what I tend to do on another thread because I think it may be worthy of criticism and discussion. Thanks for such entering into such a wonderful discussion -- at least it was for me. I really appreciate this forum. People have so much respect for each other and it is such a wonderful place for me to fly some of my ideas and thoughts before colleagues for honest and respectful feedback. I love CM and even after 35 years (be it with my own sketchy but hard won education) I'm a lifetime committed student of it. It is an endless well of treasures for us to dive into. Personally I welcome like to think that I always welcome constructive feedback and criticisms of any of my ideas and theories. Michael Tierra _____ On Behalf Of Wednesday, February 13, 2008 6:04 AM RE: expanding tradition Michael, I have also studied with Jimmy Chang and find his work fascinating. However, I do NOT think he is just making things up. For example, his style of prescribing is common in Taiwan (where he is from) etc. Usually these people have a long history of study and integration, something we lack here in the West. Just being able to pass the test and practice in Taiwan puts one's CM knowledge at a fairly high level. I do think, though, someone like yourself recommending things like apple cider vinegar for GERD is much different than a less experienced practitioners making up CM attributes and theory for who knows what. I think your information is great and can't wait to try it. You have a wealth of knowledge and I am the first to welcome it. My concerns have little to do with such recommendations. Although, I do think it is useful to distinguish where ideas come from, i.e. clinical practice, one's teacher, a classic text etc. All ultimately must be verified. However, I guess we agree to disagree, you think we should be free-thinking and add lib as we see fit. I vote for more roots in tradition. I think we both agree that integrating other modalities and ideas is extremely worthwhile. But when it comes to actual CM; it really is a vast ocean. I just don't see the need to start creating alterative theories and ideas, at least not in my point in life :-). I see a couple options to a the common problem of not being able to find a solution to a case or condition, one can 1) look at other traditions 2) make up some theory and cross their fingers, or 3) dive deeper into CM. I don't know how many cases I have found answers to by reading people like Ye Tian-Shi, Zhang-Ji, Xue Sheng-Bai, Wu Ju-Tong, Qin Bo-Wei etc. (Answer: A lot!) So I want to encourage people to explore the ocean before thinking CM does not have the solution. However, I think it is faulty to think that a mere TCM education in the states gives us enough education to really practice medicine. This buys us a ticket to the concert. Further study is required, especially to get the floor or 'front row'. There is a simple choice, one can make up what is not there, or look into the ocean. I prefer to not try to re-invent the wheel. Finally, Michael says TCM will die without this license to MSU (make stuff up) / " creative utilization. " I disagree. Based on our average level of knowledge in the West, I don't think that people have firm foundation to be able to make up correct correlations. Especially when only based on a few patients, or some whacky idea they came up while smoking who knows what. Therefore what they create will either be faulty based on lack of skill or a hybrid system that weakens the roots of CM. Hybrid systems do not preserve CM. This is very clear from what is happening now in China. I find that CM will die if we don't actually put the time in to learn it. It is much harder learn to properly differentiate diseases and understand multiple theories (i.e. shang han and wen bing) that seem to be in opposition. I think it is a shame that schools teach classes in supplements, homeopathy, tuning forks, plant spirit medicine and the likes. These short cut systems have little with CM, little depth, and take away from the precious time for students to actually learn what they came their for -CM. It also gives the false impression that CM cannot handle certain problems. This is compounded by teachers who have not explored CM deeply telling the students that one must use " all the tricks out their. " This in no way preserves CM! (Just for the record, I do think there are useful tools outside of CM, and some of these are better than what CM can offer. However, this line gets blurred when one has actually never dove in deep.) CM is much harder than tricks learned at a seminar. However, the payoff is immense. - _____ @ <%40> [@ <%40> ] On Behalf Of Michael Tierra Tuesday, February 12, 2008 6:51 PM @ <%40> expanding tradition Jimmy Wei-Yen Chang, L.Ac., is a brilliant TCM clinician who specializes in a system of pulse diagnosis that contradicts and has basically little or no historical precedent. So far as I was able to discern he figured it out for himself. The problem is that if he diagnosis a kidney stone and one does not find it with conventional medical treatment but he may still get a positive result -- how does this compute. I noticed that he will prescribe several different formulas for each patient -- not deriding the practice because I believe in this as well, this could be a little bit shotgun approach where the results are not necessarily congruent with the accuracy of the diagnosis. Not fully understanding his system as yet, it may be possible that pulse diagnosis in his practice is a little like iris diagnosis used to be when I studied with Dr. Christopher in the early 1970's. He prescribed a premade formula for just about every 'system' in the body and at a low consistent does accompanied with some rather drastic dietary changes, most people experienced positive benefit -- at least in the short run. It goes back to what used to be my favorite formula when people would ask what herb (s) they should take for a conglomeration of imbalances and systems. It was " any herb " because herbs, even the wrong herb at least has the possibility of stimulating change and if the body's innate homeostatic potential is intact the bet is that it will correct to normalcy. If it doesn't -- oh well. I highly recommend Jimmy Chang's pulse classes presented by Lotus but it begs the question to what extent it is rooted in tradition of pulse diagnosis as opposed to his own 'creative' interpretation and methodology. The point here is that there must be room for creative and original utilization of the various aspects of TCM or it will simply die. Most of us are Western practitioners practicing and trying to understand TCM and I for one am profoundly grateful to the teachings and work of Bob Flaws, Maciocia and Bensky to name three 'star's in my TCM skies however we should be open to the possibilities of other things, creative applications and so forth and not get too locked in. I've given up ever expecting to know all there is to know about TCM or having absolute mastery even of the most basic principles. That doesn't mean I don't keep trying but I also don't feel so locked in that apple cider vinegar for GERD as an example or Shirodhara for central nervous system disorders, Arjuna for cardiovascular disease, echinacea for bacterial infections is not part of my Planetary herbal practice. Allow me to recommend that you check out Lotus seminar with Jimmy Chang at http://www.elotus. <http://www.elotus. <http://www.elotus.org/monthly_articles/article_2008_3_0202.html> org/monthly_articles/article_2008_3_0202.html> org/monthly_articles/article_2008_3_0202.html Michael Tierra www.planetherbs.com <http://geo.. <http://geo.. <http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=201013/grpspId=1705060815/msgId= > com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=201013/grpspId=1705060815/msgId= > com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=201013/grpspId=1705060815/msgId= 41909/stime=1202854664/nc1=5191951/nc2=5191945/nc3=4025373> _____ << ella for Spam Control >> has removed 5281 Spam messages and set aside 3249 Newsletters for me You can use it too - and it's FREE! www.ellaforspam.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 I agree with Jason that one should go very deep into a single system before jumping around mixing and matching and MSUing. I've read Jimmy Chang's Chinese book on pulse that he wrote before coming to the U.S. He is definitely not MSUing. Nor did John Shen. Shen's materials only look like a radical departure and made-up when they are presented in ersatz " translation " by someone who does not speak or read Chinese. In my experience, Shen's materials are very well grounded in the classics, especially Li-Zhu medicine. There is a huge difference in the quality of creative thought and improvisation between someone who has spent the time and paid their dues practicing the scales and is a virtuoso musician from someone with little training who immediately starts wailing on their instrument. This is the old discussion about freedom in relation to discipline. Who is more likely to create a truly great new work of art or invention? The person with great technical chops or the monkey at the typewriter? The monkey at the typewriter has absolute, unfettered freedom, but rarely will produce anything of truly lasting value. As Thomas Edison, the famous inventor from Menlo Park, NJ said, " Invention is 99 percent perspiration and one percent inspiration. " If one starts MSUing too soon, their work will typically be shallow. It is not for nothing that we use the words " deep " and " shallow " in this way. Anyone who wants a concrete example of this, take a look at my writings before I took the time to learn Chinese and those after. My early works were certainly innovative and interesting, but have not stood the test of time. I spend a great deal of time and energy even today trying to remedy the damage I did by prematurely flapping my mouth when still effectively a neophyte. There's a reason we don't drink good wine before it has properly aged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Jason, What I say here may seem to conflict with my 'official' position, but it doesn't change how I feel about Chinese medical practice as stated in my podcast interview with Bob Flaws. I actually had the author of " Plant Spirit Medicine " , Elliot Cowan, over for dinner with three of his close students a few years back, and got to speak with him in depth about his work. As Ron Holmes noted, he was trained in the Huichol shamanistic tradition, and uses only a few tinctures of herbs, mostly a species of sage. My opinion is that the healing powers of the plants he claims are based largely on a resonance between humanity and the plant kingdom, or a 'getting back to nature' scenario. A lot of it is based on a ritualistic approach, similar to Navajo or Tibetan sand paintings. The patient becomes 'whole' by immersing oneself in the natural world and letting it's healing powers take effect. Shamanistic traditions of medicine exist throughout the world, certainly it has informed ancient Chinese medicine as well as Tibetan medicine at some point(s). The Shen nong ben cao/Divine Farmer's Materia Medica speaks about herbal medicinals that 'quiet the ethereal soul', 'nourish the spirit', 'prolong life', and 'nurture the personality' (Yang Shou-zhong's translation, Blue Poppy Press), as one example. Jewish/Kabbalistic tradition teaches that plants have both physical (refuah) and spiritual (segulah) healing natures, and that both can be utilized in medicine. In another sense, we can say perhaps that plants are sentient entities with a form of 'consciousness' (they know when to flower, open and close with the rising and falling of the sun, produce toxins to neutralize natural enemies, etc.), and have a form of intelligence that allows the plant to 'know' where to go when we ingest it and do its work. It is different than its pharmacological properties. As we can see, one's belief systems play a large part in the practice of this sort of healing/medicine. One has to live within the particular 'mind field' that such practitioners and their societies inhabit. Otherwise it is difficult, in my opinion, to get these methods to work. As practitioners of Chinese medicine, I feel we have an obligation to study, master and practice the discipline we are trained and licensed to do. I don't find it limiting in the slightest, because it is such a vast field of study. If we are trained in other modalities, or use alternative approaches, the obligation is on us to explain to our patients exactly what it is we are doing, and to avoid experimenting on them without their consent. On Feb 13, 2008, at 6:18 AM, wrote: > Z'ev, Michael, and group, > > I was wondering if you could say a few words about what is now > happening in > the herbal medicine field, with the recently created plant spirit > medicine? > I think this based on 5-element. > > BTW - anyone interested in spirit and emotions in CM, should check > out an > interview that Z'ev did with Bob Flaws on Blue poppy's website. I > think it > sums things up fairly well, and speaks to this idea of integration and > MSUing. Further comments? > > -Jason > > _____ > > > On Behalf Of Z'ev > Rosenberg > Tuesday, February 12, 2008 8:26 PM > > Re: expanding tradition > > Michael, > I don't think study and referencing the classical literature of > Chinese medicine is inconsistent with creativity. All the great > teachers I've known and studied with do just that. Michael Broffman, > for one, has developed a very original system of pulse diagnosis and > treatment from the Nan Jing that is very contemporary and treats the > most complex autoimmune disorders. I've spent many years studying > this system directly from the Nan Jing itself. > Teachers such as Jimmy Chang, and John Shen did develop highly > original systems of practice and thought, but although they appear to > be very empirically based (i.e. clinical), they are also very likely > based on their own study of the classical literature. John Shen > basically rewrote six channel pattern differentiation in a new way. I > don't know Jimmy Chang that well, but I'm a firm believer that there > is 'nothing new under the sun', only new ways of presenting old > things. > > > On Feb 12, 2008, at 5:50 PM, Michael Tierra wrote: > > > > > Jimmy Wei-Yen Chang, L.Ac., is a brilliant TCM clinician who > > specializes in > > a system of pulse diagnosis that contradicts and has basically > > little or no > > historical precedent. So far as I was able to discern he figured it > > out for > > himself. The problem is that if he diagnosis a kidney stone and one > > does not > > find it with conventional medical treatment but he may still get a > > positive > > result -- how does this compute. I noticed that he will prescribe > > several > > different formulas for each patient -- not deriding the practice > > because I > > believe in this as well, this could be a little bit shotgun approach > > where > > the results are not necessarily congruent with the accuracy of the > > diagnosis. > > > > I highly recommend Jimmy Chang's pulse classes presented by Lotus > > but it > > begs the question to what extent it is rooted in tradition of pulse > > diagnosis as opposed to his own 'creative' interpretation and > > methodology. > > > > The point here is that there must be room for creative and original > > utilization of the various aspects of TCM or it will simply die. > > Most of us > > are Western practitioners practicing and trying to understand TCM > > and I for > > one am profoundly grateful to the teachings and work of Bob Flaws, > > Maciocia > > and Bensky to name three 'star's in my TCM skies however we should > > be open > > to the possibilities of other things, creative applications and so > > forth and > > not get too locked in. I've given up ever expecting to know all > > there is to > > know about TCM or having absolute mastery even of the most basic > > principles. > > That doesn't mean I don't keep trying but I also don't feel so > > locked in > > that apple cider vinegar for GERD as an example or Shirodhara for > > central > > nervous system disorders, Arjuna for cardiovascular disease, > > echinacea for > > bacterial infections is not part of my Planetary herbal practice. > > > > Allow me to recommend that you check out Lotus seminar with Jimmy > > Chang at > > http://www.elotus. > <http://www.elotus.org/monthly_articles/article_2008_3_0202.html> > org/monthly_articles/article_2008_3_0202.html > > > > Michael Tierra > > > > www.planetherbs.com > > > > <http://geo.. > <http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=201013/grpspId=1705060815/msgId= > > com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=201013/grpspId=1705060815/msgId= > > 41909/stime=1202854664/nc1=5191951/nc2=5191945/nc3=4025373> > > > > > > _____ > > > > << ella for Spam Control >> has removed 5281 Spam messages and set > > aside > > 3249 Newsletters for me > > You can use it too - and it's FREE! www.ellaforspam.com > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Wow Jason, I love your thoughts and completely agree. I think it is very important to truly learn the depth of what CM has to offer before moving onto other newer ideas. In my practice i see alot of skin related problems. From what I have learned in the regular 5 year CM study in Canada, I did NOT gain enough knowledge or experience to fully grasp how good CM is at treating skin disease. It was not until I trained in China and then later through Mazin's dermatology diploma program that I could actually see the light. Now I feel fairly confident in the treatment of many skin diseases, both in diagnosis and treatment, by using CM- as I was taught. The great thing is that it works! I know that before this extra training I couldn't see the light and I questioned CM's ability to offer true depth of healing. Many of my colleagues are still stumped by many skin problems and then refer them off to homeopaths, naturopaths, ect- all because they have not dove deep enough into what CM truly has to offer. This goes for some practitioners I know who have 20+ years experience- they are still refering patients off to other modalities for things that CM is good for, and the patient is still not getting better with the other modalities! IMHO this gives our practice a bad name and does not represent how powerful and useful our medicine is. I chose CM because it did offer me a lifetime of study. For me, thinking that WM was only introduced to china in the last century or so, is so fascinating as they had to treat pretty much everything based on traditional approaches. There is so much there to offer practitioners and their practice if they only dig deep enough. Trevor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Hey, Bob, who's the 'the monkey at the typewriter? " (chuckle) -- Knowledge comes in all ways and forms not only and simply from " mastery of the classics " which only a few such as yourself can lay claim. However, you and I are on the same page regarding the need for a grounded system of thought. As a side thought, the Sanskrit word " spirana " -- meaning to jump or so to speak " the leap of faith " ) is a the root word for the English " inspiration " and the sense is that one follows the canons all the way to the bank of a stream (or as far as the classics can take us) and then one has to make the leap for the greater jewel of understanding. So what if one occasionally one falls in a puddle of mud occasionally. I've been there, done that, and in general I think it has been worthwhile. Some artists pay their dues and go the traditional route but their are just as many who, for whatever reason, lacking a traditional background (Berlioz learned music on the guitar) make a leap to genius -- and then their experience and knowledge is assimilated into the canons. In fact, it could be argued that few great artists get anywhere until they are able to break free from tradition and yet their work tends to build or create tradition. Richard Wagner as an example, seems to have had little of the advantage of the kind of musical education that other great composers may have had and he is arguably regarded as one of the greatest musical genius's in the history of music (whatever you might think about his philosophy and politics). Then all the early Jazz musicians whose work has been developed since their time. The artist Rousseau and the evolution of 'primitivism " . I dread the experience of locking horns with you because, I certainly would not want to offend you as I, like all of us owe you a debt of respect and gratitude for all that you have and continue to contribute to our understanding of TCM. The second potential problem in having a discussion, however, is the obvious disadvantage, which you point out, that no matter what one might say or think, if you disagree you can always say that you read Chinese and I don't. Similarly I'm in no position to disagree about Jimmy Chang's pulsology except to say that the class I took, both he and his assistant Tina, said that his findings were unique to his experience. They made a big deal out of stating that. So I don't know what to think now. I also took a class with the late John Shen and frankly I got little of any practical clinical value from it. He was quite old at the time but as I recall my impression was that he allowed a lot more subjectivity and creativity into his diagnostic analysis and I think he was a unique 'creative genius' of TCM. In the introduction to his little book in English entitled " " on page 8 he says: " Everyone should understand his own life style based on his own knowledge and experience. " I take note that he's not qualifying this with whether someone can read Chinese or not or that they have thoroughly studied the classics. He goes on to say " Why use notions such as Yin-Yang and the Five elements? These concepts resulted from man's inability to express his own meanings in China's ancient times when the language had not been developed adequately. " I'd love to know what you think about that last statements? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Plant Spirit medicine is by no means a new modality. The old Wu Yi docs from the days of old were Shaman Doctors that relied extensively on plant spirit communication~ as well as animal spirit, mineral spirit, and weather spirit communication to name a few examples. Chinese medicine was originally a Shamanistic tradition, as were most indigenous medicines. I am a formal student of Amazonian Shamanism which relies heavily on developing relationships with plant entity teachers. We spend extended periods of time (3 weeks to many months) in relative isolation eating a very restricted diet (plantains and white river fish) taking strong doses of a specific plant to refine the communication with the spirits of that plant. The plant spirits teach you themselves how to prepare the plant and for what illnesses. In Peru they refer to this as a plant “dieta” and is one of the cornerstones of Amazonian vegetalismo/curanderismo. The old Shaman docs that I know in Peru are true plant spirit maestros and are reminiscent of Qi Gong Masters. Kip _____ On Behalf Of rdudecat Wednesday, February 13, 2008 8:03 AM Re: expanding tradition HYPERLINK " %40 " @- ..-com, " " <@..-.> wrote: > > Z'ev, Michael, and group, > > > > I was wondering if you could say a few words about what is now happening in > the herbal medicine field, with the recently created plant spirit medicine? > I think this based on 5-element. > > Greetings Group, I have been following this discussion between the 'traditionalists' and the 'new creationalists' for want of better labels. I find that both have value--what I don't find valuable is: 1. Those who scoff at one point of view as irrelevant or silly. 2. Those who's ego or personality gets in the way. 3. Particularly annoying is those posters who apparently don't have the time to compose a post, and use abbreviations that few can recognize. I suspect they fall under number 2 above. In regards to plant spirit medicine. My first contact with this was a book by Eliot Cowan, published in 1995. Though he has a five element/acupuncturi-st background, the basis of this work is the Huichol Indian shamanistic tradition. (Anybody read Carlos Castenada from the 60's?). I don't know enough about the classics of CM to know if there is a similar teaching. The basics of plant spirit medicine is that each plant has a spirit. One contacts that plant spirit through meditation, and that plant spirit teaches you. It becomes an ally, and a healer might need only a couple of these herbal allies to treat any problem. So this might be something that Michael from Santa Cruz might employ in his practice. (Please don't think this as an attack). Ron Holmes Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.4/1275 - Release 2/12/2008 3:20 PM Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.4/1275 - Release 2/12/2008 3:20 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 No I don't employ Eliot Cowan's ideas in my practice and I second the notion that none of us read attack or offense in any of our statements. I am respectfully open to criticism and debate and I have tremendous respect for others who I seem to be communicating with on this list. I think it is an exciting discussion. Michael _____ On Behalf Of rdudecat Wednesday, February 13, 2008 8:03 AM Re: expanding tradition @ <%40> , " " wrote: > > Z'ev, Michael, and group, > > > > I was wondering if you could say a few words about what is now happening in > the herbal medicine field, with the recently created plant spirit medicine? > I think this based on 5-element. > > Greetings Group, I have been following this discussion between the 'traditionalists' and the 'new creationalists' for want of better labels. I find that both have value--what I don't find valuable is: 1. Those who scoff at one point of view as irrelevant or silly. 2. Those who's ego or personality gets in the way. 3. Particularly annoying is those posters who apparently don't have the time to compose a post, and use abbreviations that few can recognize. I suspect they fall under number 2 above. In regards to plant spirit medicine. My first contact with this was a book by Eliot Cowan, published in 1995. Though he has a five element/acupuncturist background, the basis of this work is the Huichol Indian shamanistic tradition. (Anybody read Carlos Castenada from the 60's?). I don't know enough about the classics of CM to know if there is a similar teaching. The basics of plant spirit medicine is that each plant has a spirit. One contacts that plant spirit through meditation, and that plant spirit teaches you. It becomes an ally, and a healer might need only a couple of these herbal allies to treat any problem. So this might be something that Michael from Santa Cruz might employ in his practice. (Please don't think this as an attack). Ron Holmes _____ << ella for Spam Control >> has removed 5288 Spam messages and set aside 3250 Newsletters for me You can use it too - and it's FREE! www.ellaforspam.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Isn't this done under the influence of Ayuhuasca? By the way anyone know of a tradition of hallucinogen usage other than opium in Chinese culture? On Behalf Of kip Wednesday, February 13, 2008 12:28 PM RE: Re: expanding tradition Plant Spirit medicine is by no means a new modality. The old Wu Yi docs from the days of old were Shaman Doctors that relied extensively on plant spirit communication~ as well as animal spirit, mineral spirit, and weather spirit communication to name a few examples. Chinese medicine was originally a Shamanistic tradition, as were most indigenous medicines. I am a formal student of Amazonian Shamanism which relies heavily on developing relationships with plant entity teachers. We spend extended periods of time (3 weeks to many months) in relative isolation eating a very restricted diet (plantains and white river fish) taking strong doses of a specific plant to refine the communication with the spirits of that plant. The plant spirits teach you themselves how to prepare the plant and for what illnesses. In Peru they refer to this as a plant " dieta " and is one of the cornerstones of Amazonian vegetalismo/curanderismo. The old Shaman docs that I know in Peru are true plant spirit maestros and are reminiscent of Qi Gong Masters. Kip _____ On Behalf Of rdudecat Wednesday, February 13, 2008 8:03 AM Re: expanding tradition HYPERLINK " %40 " @- ..-com, " " <@..-.> wrote: > > Z'ev, Michael, and group, > > > > I was wondering if you could say a few words about what is now happening in > the herbal medicine field, with the recently created plant spirit medicine? > I think this based on 5-element. > > Greetings Group, I have been following this discussion between the 'traditionalists' and the 'new creationalists' for want of better labels. I find that both have value--what I don't find valuable is: 1. Those who scoff at one point of view as irrelevant or silly. 2. Those who's ego or personality gets in the way. 3. Particularly annoying is those posters who apparently don't have the time to compose a post, and use abbreviations that few can recognize. I suspect they fall under number 2 above. In regards to plant spirit medicine. My first contact with this was a book by Eliot Cowan, published in 1995. Though he has a five element/acupuncturi-st background, the basis of this work is the Huichol Indian shamanistic tradition. (Anybody read Carlos Castenada from the 60's?). I don't know enough about the classics of CM to know if there is a similar teaching. The basics of plant spirit medicine is that each plant has a spirit. One contacts that plant spirit through meditation, and that plant spirit teaches you. It becomes an ally, and a healer might need only a couple of these herbal allies to treat any problem. So this might be something that Michael from Santa Cruz might employ in his practice. (Please don't think this as an attack). Ron Holmes Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.4/1275 - Release 2/12/2008 3:20 PM Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.4/1275 - Release 2/12/2008 3:20 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 There is an old saying, I think applied to spiritual masters that " the Masters don't write the books, their students do. " We see that now how many old traditions get codified and bent out of shape by followers. I tell my students that if they have a new idea for , throw in a little Western Medicine, tell people it works on the " cellular level " and people will buy it. I've got a dozen years of CM practice and 3 times that making art. I see the difference in that art is the expression of beauty destroyed by society (another old, admittedly Marxist, saying). The young artist can see with fresh eyes what the old have corrupted. Doing medicine deals with the genetic, the very ancient core of human kind. Naive perceptions have less weight. And perhaps as Bob has found, after insight and inspiration, the serious practitioner will turn back to the core basics. That's not to say there isn't art in this medicine. But it is an art based on understanding of the position of the human in relation to the body (as opposed to the human to society). Not something a new practitioner readily understand. It's an art that seems to be best done by the Old Masters and not the avant garde. I welcome all insights and time will tell if they play out. Doug Nor did John Shen. Shen's materials only > look like a radical departure and made-up when they are presented in > ersatz " translation " by someone who does not speak or read Chinese. In > my experience, Shen's materials are very well grounded in the > classics, especially Li-Zhu medicine. > > There is a huge difference in the quality of creative thought and > improvisation between someone who has spent the time and paid their > dues practicing the scales and is a virtuoso musician from someone > with little training who immediately starts wailing on their > instrument. This is the old discussion about freedom in relation to > discipline. Who is more likely to create a truly great new work of art > or invention? The person with great technical chops or the monkey at > the typewriter? The monkey at the typewriter has absolute, unfettered > freedom, but rarely will produce anything of truly lasting value. As > Thomas Edison, the famous inventor from Menlo Park, NJ said, > " Invention is 99 percent perspiration and one percent inspiration. " > > If one starts MSUing too soon, their work will typically be shallow. > It is not for nothing that we use the words " deep " and " shallow " in > this way. Anyone who wants a concrete example of this, take a look at > my writings before I took the time to learn Chinese and those after. > My early works were certainly innovative and interesting, but have not > stood the test of time. I spend a great deal of time and energy even > today trying to remedy the damage I did by prematurely flapping my > mouth when still effectively a neophyte. There's a reason we don't > drink good wine before it has properly aged. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Just my opinion - but I wasn't so impressed with the class. I'm sure there are times where a whole system says that a slippery pulse is related to food stagnation, dampness, etc - but then one guy says, no it's due to yin deficiency, then I have to wonder. That and he checked my pulse and told me I had hepatitis, and when I told him I didn't, then he told me that I must drink too much - but one beer every week or so didn't seem that much to me. I would admit to having a little (or too much on occasion) of Liver Qi stagnation. To each his own - but that's why pulse is just one of the 4 examinations, and not the end all be all. I'm just thankful that with the education I received it helped to build a critical foundation to analyze new information. Geoff , " Michael Tierra " <mtierra wrote: > > > Jimmy Wei-Yen Chang, L.Ac., is a brilliant TCM clinician who specializes in > a system of pulse diagnosis that contradicts and has basically little or no > historical precedent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 I appreciate your insights and experience on this and its along those lines that I have questions. So Jimmy is a very successful practitioner and he claims that he basis nearly everything on the pulse. Why do you think he's so popular and obviously from those who have spent time with him, he gets great results. I have a theory and would be happy to toss it around privately. Michael _____ On Behalf Of G Hudson Wednesday, February 13, 2008 4:14 PM Re: expanding tradition Just my opinion - but I wasn't so impressed with the class. I'm sure there are times where a whole system says that a slippery pulse is related to food stagnation, dampness, etc - but then one guy says, no it's due to yin deficiency, then I have to wonder. That and he checked my pulse and told me I had hepatitis, and when I told him I didn't, then he told me that I must drink too much - but one beer every week or so didn't seem that much to me. I would admit to having a little (or too much on occasion) of Liver Qi stagnation. To each his own - but that's why pulse is just one of the 4 examinations, and not the end all be all. I'm just thankful that with the education I received it helped to build a critical foundation to analyze new information. Geoff @ <%40> , " Michael Tierra " <mtierra wrote: > > > Jimmy Wei-Yen Chang, L.Ac., is a brilliant TCM clinician who specializes in > a system of pulse diagnosis that contradicts and has basically little or no > historical precedent. _____ << ella for Spam Control >> has removed 5295 Spam messages and set aside 3253 Newsletters for me You can use it too - and it's FREE! www.ellaforspam.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Hi Michael, The dietas are not done under the influence of Ayahuasca, but sometimes Ayahuasca ceremonies are done while one is doing a dieta. Often a plant maestro will come through during the ceremony to say that it wants to work with you. Many of the plants that one diets are very powerful; sometimes more psychoactive than the Ayahuasca. In Daoist Plant and Animal Magic, Jerry Alan Johnson states: " The writings of ancient China overflow with many other references to psychoactive fungi, and there is even an ancient Daoist work called " On the Planting and Cultivation of Magic Mushrooms. " " The use of hallucinogenic mushrooms and Puffballs is very ancient and an integral part of Chinese mysticism " . " The Mao Shan Daoists feature cannabis as a diety named " Ma Ku " (translated as " miss Hemp " ). ..Acording to Professor Michael Saso, the sacred scriptures of the Mao Shan " Highest Clarity " sect were revealed under the influence of a " hemp-laced incense " (which may refer to the archaic Siberian technique of the smoke-filled tent). " " it was customary for the ancient Daoists to mix Datura (Man Tuole) with Cannabis (Ma) in rice wine, and drink it as a magical elixir. " " In ancient China the Nymphaea Caerulea (Blue Lotus) was held in very high esteem by both Daoist and Buddhist priests who used it as a visionary plant. " Kip On Behalf Of Michael Tierra Wednesday, February 13, 2008 2:30 PM RE: Re: expanding tradition Isn't this done under the influence of Ayuhuasca? By the way anyone know of a tradition of hallucinogen usage other than opium in Chinese culture? @ <%40> [@ <%40> ] On Behalf Of kip (AT) rosemanclinic (DOT) <kip%40rosemanclinic.com> com Wednesday, February 13, 2008 12:28 PM @ <%40> RE: Re: expanding tradition Plant Spirit medicine is by no means a new modality. The old Wu Yi docs from the days of old were Shaman Doctors that relied extensively on plant spirit communication~ as well as animal spirit, mineral spirit, and weather spirit communication to name a few examples. Chinese medicine was originally a Shamanistic tradition, as were most indigenous medicines. I am a formal student of Amazonian Shamanism which relies heavily on developing relationships with plant entity teachers. We spend extended periods of time (3 weeks to many months) in relative isolation eating a very restricted diet (plantains and white river fish) taking strong doses of a specific plant to refine the communication with the spirits of that plant. The plant spirits teach you themselves how to prepare the plant and for what illnesses. In Peru they refer to this as a plant " dieta " and is one of the cornerstones of Amazonian vegetalismo/curanderismo. The old Shaman docs that I know in Peru are true plant spirit maestros and are reminiscent of Qi Gong Masters. Kip _____ @ <%40> [@ <%40> ] On Behalf Of rdudecat Wednesday, February 13, 2008 8:03 AM @ <%40> Re: expanding tradition HYPERLINK " %40 " @- ..-com, " " <@..-.> wrote: > > Z'ev, Michael, and group, > > > > I was wondering if you could say a few words about what is now happening in > the herbal medicine field, with the recently created plant spirit medicine? > I think this based on 5-element. > > Greetings Group, I have been following this discussion between the 'traditionalists' and the 'new creationalists' for want of better labels. I find that both have value--what I don't find valuable is: 1. Those who scoff at one point of view as irrelevant or silly. 2. Those who's ego or personality gets in the way. 3. Particularly annoying is those posters who apparently don't have the time to compose a post, and use abbreviations that few can recognize. I suspect they fall under number 2 above. In regards to plant spirit medicine. My first contact with this was a book by Eliot Cowan, published in 1995. Though he has a five element/acupuncturi-st background, the basis of this work is the Huichol Indian shamanistic tradition. (Anybody read Carlos Castenada from the 60's?). I don't know enough about the classics of CM to know if there is a similar teaching. The basics of plant spirit medicine is that each plant has a spirit. One contacts that plant spirit through meditation, and that plant spirit teaches you. It becomes an ally, and a healer might need only a couple of these herbal allies to treat any problem. So this might be something that Michael from Santa Cruz might employ in his practice. (Please don't think this as an attack). Ron Holmes Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.4/1275 - Release 2/12/2008 3:20 PM Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.4/1275 - Release 2/12/2008 3:20 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Michael, If you like, we would love to hear your thoughts. -Jason _____ On Behalf Of Michael Tierra Wednesday, February 13, 2008 7:10 PM RE: Re: expanding tradition I appreciate your insights and experience on this and its along those lines that I have questions. So Jimmy is a very successful practitioner and he claims that he basis nearly everything on the pulse. Why do you think he's so popular and obviously from those who have spent time with him, he gets great results. I have a theory and would be happy to toss it around privately. Michael _____ @ <%40> [@ <%40> ] On Behalf Of G Hudson Wednesday, February 13, 2008 4:14 PM @ <%40> Re: expanding tradition Just my opinion - but I wasn't so impressed with the class. I'm sure there are times where a whole system says that a slippery pulse is related to food stagnation, dampness, etc - but then one guy says, no it's due to yin deficiency, then I have to wonder. That and he checked my pulse and told me I had hepatitis, and when I told him I didn't, then he told me that I must drink too much - but one beer every week or so didn't seem that much to me. I would admit to having a little (or too much on occasion) of Liver Qi stagnation. To each his own - but that's why pulse is just one of the 4 examinations, and not the end all be all. I'm just thankful that with the education I received it helped to build a critical foundation to analyze new information. Geoff @ <%40> , " Michael Tierra " <mtierra wrote: > > > Jimmy Wei-Yen Chang, L.Ac., is a brilliant TCM clinician who specializes in > a system of pulse diagnosis that contradicts and has basically little or no > historical precedent. _____ << ella for Spam Control >> has removed 5295 Spam messages and set aside 3253 Newsletters for me You can use it too - and it's FREE! www.ellaforspam.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 M, I can not speak for Bob, but my thoughts are as follows. Life is full of opposing points of views, and one can always a statement to support one's belief. This is why I generally look for trends in thought. However, if the below statement resonates with you and you can make it work, then great. For every statement that says theory is not important you will find 100 that say it is. As previously stated, CM has a map. Physicas have a map, Music has a map. These maps are called theory. They allow us to access the greatness and developments of the past. One can strive for clinical greatness without these, but good luck. These maps can guide our clinical reality and creative process. They do not lock us down into some box. Therefore such maps are not " traditional " obsolete ideas, but a real working and living guide that play out in everyday life. This is one reason I embraced Chinese medicine and steered away from disciplines like Western herbalism and Western medicine. The map of Chinese medicine IMHO was just much more complete. - _____ On Behalf Of Michael Tierra He goes on to say " Why use notions such as Yin-Yang and the Five elements? These concepts resulted from man's inability to express his own meanings in China's ancient times when the language had not been developed adequately. " I'd love to know what you think about that last statements? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Dear All, I lived in a Tibetan Dharma centre for three years, contemplating the idea of becoming a monk, before realizing that I am attached to love and romance a little too much for that idea! Anyways, while living there I had was able to participate in a Buddha drawing class with a very well respected thanka painter, Gen La Zopa. So, as many may know, the art of drawing a Buddha is actually one of mathmatics, measuring and symmetry. Proportions are exact. The idea is so Buddha's pure image can withstand the test of time and be seen as he was first depicted 2000+ years ago. This is what I call eastern art theory to a Tee. There is not a lot of room for personal creativity. One must replicate what the teacher drew- exactly. Now there was a woman in the class who was an art therapist. She drew a Buddha the way she " felt " Buddha should look, based on her feelings and personal interpretation. the teacher looked at the picture and said, " That is not Buddha! " . Obviously she was very upset. Now she represented what I would call western art, where by personal creativity is encouraged. To the point I would say where people went crazy doing it, ie cutting off their ears, ect. My point with this story is that I feel if too many ideas, theories, philosophies are mixed up with CM then the essence of CM can be lost. We will forget what Buddha's original face looks like. Would this be a good thing, especially if we lose approaches that are actually very successful? Mixing ideas can be worth while, but I think then call it something else other then CM. If it works, then that is great- especially if it can be explained via the modalities of CM theory. But I think it is still important to respect the Chinese traditions that we have learned from, so as to preserve its essence. Paint Buddha any way you want, but be clear with everyone that it is just your interpretation and does not represent the image of what existed from centuries past. Trevor , " " wrote: > > M, > > > > I can not speak for Bob, but my thoughts are as follows. Life is full of > opposing points of views, and one can always a statement to support one's > belief. This is why I generally look for trends in thought. However, if the > below statement resonates with you and you can make it work, then great. For > every statement that says theory is not important you will find 100 that say > it is. As previously stated, CM has a map. Physicas have a map, Music has a > map. These maps are called theory. They allow us to access the greatness and > developments of the past. One can strive for clinical greatness without > these, but good luck. > > > > These maps can guide our clinical reality and creative process. They do not > lock us down into some box. Therefore such maps are not " traditional " > obsolete ideas, but a real working and living guide that play out in > everyday life. This is one reason I embraced Chinese medicine and steered > away from disciplines like Western herbalism and Western medicine. The map > of Chinese medicine IMHO was just much more complete. > > > > - > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 " Hey, Bob, who's the 'the monkey at the typewriter?' " Michael, This is a standard trope when discussing the relationship between freedom and discipline within Western philosophy. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 " I'm sure there are times where a whole system says that a slippery pulse is > related to food stagnation, dampness, etc - but then one guy says, no it's due to yin deficiency, then I have to wonder. " This is absolutely standard Chinese medical pulse lore. A floating, forceful pulse (which may also be slippery) is specifically the surging pulse (hong mai) and indicates yin vacuity failing to control yang with yang giving rise to the internal engenderment of heat. This is not something idiosyncratic or unique. If it seems so, then that is because one hasn't gone deeply into Chinese pulse lore as it exists in the Chinese language literature. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 Is there anyone on the list that has experience with plant spirit medicine (from 5 elements or other) in the Chinese tradition? Could you share how it has shaped your clinical practice? - On Behalf Of kip Wednesday, February 13, 2008 1:28 PM RE: Re: expanding tradition Plant Spirit medicine is by no means a new modality. The old Wu Yi docs from the days of old were Shaman Doctors that relied extensively on plant spirit communication~ as well as animal spirit, mineral spirit, and weather spirit communication to name a few examples. Chinese medicine was originally a Shamanistic tradition, as were most indigenous medicines. I am a formal student of Amazonian Shamanism which relies heavily on developing relationships with plant entity teachers. We spend extended periods of time (3 weeks to many months) in relative isolation eating a very restricted diet (plantains and white river fish) taking strong doses of a specific plant to refine the communication with the spirits of that plant. The plant spirits teach you themselves how to prepare the plant and for what illnesses. In Peru they refer to this as a plant " dieta " and is one of the cornerstones of Amazonian vegetalismo/curanderismo. The old Shaman docs that I know in Peru are true plant spirit maestros and are reminiscent of Qi Gong Masters. Kip _____ On Behalf Of rdudecat Wednesday, February 13, 2008 8:03 AM Re: expanding tradition HYPERLINK " %40 " @- ..-com, " " <@..-.> wrote: > > Z'ev, Michael, and group, > > > > I was wondering if you could say a few words about what is now happening in > the herbal medicine field, with the recently created plant spirit medicine? > I think this based on 5-element. > > Greetings Group, I have been following this discussion between the 'traditionalists' and the 'new creationalists' for want of better labels. I find that both have value--what I don't find valuable is: 1. Those who scoff at one point of view as irrelevant or silly. 2. Those who's ego or personality gets in the way. 3. Particularly annoying is those posters who apparently don't have the time to compose a post, and use abbreviations that few can recognize. I suspect they fall under number 2 above. In regards to plant spirit medicine. My first contact with this was a book by Eliot Cowan, published in 1995. Though he has a five element/acupuncturi-st background, the basis of this work is the Huichol Indian shamanistic tradition. (Anybody read Carlos Castenada from the 60's?). I don't know enough about the classics of CM to know if there is a similar teaching. The basics of plant spirit medicine is that each plant has a spirit. One contacts that plant spirit through meditation, and that plant spirit teaches you. It becomes an ally, and a healer might need only a couple of these herbal allies to treat any problem. So this might be something that Michael from Santa Cruz might employ in his practice. (Please don't think this as an attack). Ron Holmes Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.4/1275 - Release 2/12/2008 3:20 PM Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.4/1275 - Release 2/12/2008 3:20 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 Jason CM is a theory based medicine, (as part of its matrix as there are just as many completely empirical symptomatic styles of practice within CM) and the danger and problem i have seen too often is that many cannot separate what sounds correct and what eventually actually works in a large number of patients in a predictable way. There is no way to practice high level CM without understanding its many theoretical bases. I for one, however, believe a strong western based scientific critical lens is a must in order to assess one's clinical outcomes in a more meaningful way. 400 29th St. Suite 419 Oakland Ca 94609 alonmarcus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 Alon, I completely agree. I would like to someday have a discussion on how to really assess our clinical outcomes. It is no easy task as Bob Flaws has pointed out in the past (especially when people are doing herbs, acupuncture, and supplements). I just have a hard to trusting even myself when it comes to all the possible factors. To figure out what even a single herb is doing in a formula takes rigor and time. This is why it is surprising when people, with relatively short clinical careers, can turn out whole systems of correspondences. An example that puzzles me is the newly emerging spiritual and emotional attributes for the herbs. Since they are not getting it from Chinese (at least to my knowledge) I wonder how they can be so confident to start teaching such a system. Can someone explain this to me ? - _____ On Behalf Of alon marcus Thursday, February 14, 2008 11:11 AM Re: expanding tradition Jason CM is a theory based medicine, (as part of its matrix as there are just as many completely empirical symptomatic styles of practice within CM) and the danger and problem i have seen too often is that many cannot separate what sounds correct and what eventually actually works in a large number of patients in a predictable way. There is no way to practice high level CM without understanding its many theoretical bases. I for one, however, believe a strong western based scientific critical lens is a must in order to assess one's clinical outcomes in a more meaningful way. 400 29th St. Suite 419 Oakland Ca 94609 alonmarcus (AT) wans (DOT) <alonmarcus%40wans.net> net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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