What is MSU???

[Guest guest]

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Michael Tierra

 

Maciocia were riffing what's wrong with that? Of should we suspect him of

" Msuing? " Who ever came up with that pompous acronym?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

MSU (making stuff up).. Where did it come from? If I recall it was coined

here in the CHA, about 8-9 years ago(?) by Charles Chace. I do not find it

pompous and I find that people who take offense with it peculiar. I think it

was originally started when discussing lurking pathogens, something in which

CM has a quite a bit written on. Some " free thinkers " were suggesting some

outrageous treatments and ideas, based their own version of theory. Because

they never took the time to actually read what was written in the Chinese

literature, their treatments produced, what many felt as, harmful results.

Yet no one could convince them otherwise, because they had concocted

half-baked theories to support their process.

 

 

 

There are basic " axioms " of CM that when followed will lead to predictable

clinical outcomes. Adlibbing, may see creative and fun, and work for

oneself, but such creations can also allow others to start drawing incorrect

conclusions about CM pathology and physiology and eventually lead to

ineffective treatment. CM physiology and pathology may have changed a bit

through the years, but there is a general sense how things work and not

work. This is why I am not an advocate of an anything goes expression of CM.

The map is already there, if one chooses to learn it. I am guessing that is

one reason why Bob Flaws put together " the statements of fact " book. I am

quite clear at this point that CM is not some playground where circular

convoluted ideas roam free, and where one can just create their own

correlations and conclusions and have it translate into reproducible

clinical results. Of course one may try, and then these should be challenged

through clinical results as well as the large body of literature that

already exists.

 

 

 

Teaching a student how to evaluate CM information correctly and rigorously

(both classical and modern) is a skill that empowers them. Telling them that

they are free to make up whatever they want, only weakens them and sets them

up for clinical failure. Until we have exhausted our current wealth of

information I see no reason to start MSUing.

 

 

 

Finally one argument for just MSUing is noting the various inconsistencies

in CM thought. Such inconsistencies may lead one to conclude that it just

doesn't matter. This is usually a point of view from someone that has not

spent that much time actually understanding the context of the original

statements. CM has many threads of thought, and they need to be evaluated

within there original context. Studying SHL will reveal many ideas that just

do not jive with modern TCM. Zhang-ji's tight pulse may be much different

than a teacher at the local school. Who is right? Maybe both! Each lens may

result in very different diagnosis and treatments. They both can be correct,

and this is the essence of CM that many westerners can never get past. But

this is far from a license to start MSUing, it is a calling to try to

understand the depth of CM that already exists. Doing so gives multiple

treatments options for cases that sit in front of you. I think I have said

everything I can say. Others?

 

 

Respectfully,

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Jason,

If you are not quite finished with this discussion, are you saying that

every treatment one gives based on TCM principles will result in cure? We

can't even agree what constitutes a fast pulse, let alone the significance

of the left and right hand " chi " pulses or lack of coat on the tongue edges

and countless other TCM precepts that require judgment and interpretation.

 

Determining hot and cold is interesting is an interesting case in point. Is

there anything in TCM that says, that one should take the patient's

temperature with a thermometer? I recently had chills during a cold. Based

on that, I would have treated it as a wind cold disease but then I took my

temperature and found that I had a fever of 102 degrees. Previously I was

taking herbs for wind cold that included cinnamon and other warming herbs.

It only passingly helped. Out of desperation, I decided to take an aspirin

(a cool natured drug derived from a cold herb - willow), My temperature

quickly went down and I immediately felt better and began to recover rather

quickly.

 

Before that I always thought I knew the difference between 'wind cold' and

'wind heat' diseases. My estimation of my condition was that it was 'wind

cold' -- I had no sore throat and I did have severe chills, having a

tendency towards low thyroid my pulse tends to be slower -- certainly not

fast which would have indicated heat. I don't remember my tongue.

 

The TCM classics only say that someone with a fever who is particularly

vulnerable and has more tendency towards chills than feelings of heat, would

have a wind-cold pattern.

 

Perhaps you might say it is my profound and deep lack of understanding of

the Chinese classics or it could be my inability to interpret them correctly

but with over 30 years experience practicing and teaching I could not get

TCM theory as I knew it at the time to resolve my condition as well as an

aspirin. I wonder if anyone else who is reading this has had similar

questions regarding colds and flus that they or someone they treated had?

 

I think CM is one of the greatest gifts to humanity but I think there are

any number of snags, pitfalls, that signal its limitation and the need for

continued expansion and evolution. Using the past as a place of departure is

important and valuable but getting stuck in it is the death of CM.

 

A little personal experience reminded me that it is not so easy after

decades of study to determine between 'wind cold' and 'wind heat' and of

course, I'll never know for sure whether it was my lack of knowledge of TCM

theory or classics or the insufficiency of that information as it is

presented. --- as the saying goes, there is indeed no substitute for

experience -- but then it seems you want to invalidate someone's experience

based on their prior 'msuing' -- there's something in this that seems a

little confused.

 

Have you or anyone on this list ever heard of diagnostic formulas? These are

when a practitioner gives a formula with strong heating, cooling, tonifying

or emptying qualities to gage the accuracy of their diagnosis by the

patient's reaction. Something that some TCM herbalists do. I have concluded

that the term diagnosis in TCM is incorrect. Rather a TCM assessment is

offered as a hypothesis for treatment. Only if the treatment results with a

favorable response could one claim that the assessment MAY have been

correct.

 

Michael Tierra

www.planetherbs.com

 

 

People can be wrong for many reasons, in fact with TCM the reasons are

multiplied hundreds fold. It is neither the only system of healing nor is it

a flawless system because it was created by flawed people and is practiced

by flawed practitioners on patients who are determined to come up with

unique conditions and patterns to confound the best of us -- thus the

limitations of healing.

 

Its insulting to say someone is " MSuing " you can comment and criticize the

merit of their ideas but not on the basis of who has or has not a superior

understanding of the classics. Just bad form -- no room for any one to grow

and learn.

 

Michael Tierra

www.planetherbs.com

 

_____

 

<< ella for Spam Control >> has removed 5360 Spam messages and set aside

3273 Newsletters for me

You can use it too - and it's FREE! www.ellaforspam.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Michael ..

 

Just a small note, I am teaching & clinical supervisor for my students.. they

did mix up the " wind cold " & " wind heat " ... regarding your symptom, yes, you got

a wind cold attach.., because you didn't aware of that the wind cold evil went

in deeper to your body, and turn to heat, body is the battlefield between evil &

righteous. Because you have a strong inner qi ( Zhong qi) so, they were fighting

in your throat area and create the heat.. (that is why aspirin worked for you)

.....how about da qing ye, or huang qin or chuan xin lian pien..., those will

work fast than aspirin also,, and sorry about your last choice...

 

and Yes, we need to study more about our ancestor's book..

 

my 2 cents..

 

Christine

 

 

 

Christine W Chang, DAOM, LAc.,

 

 

 

Michael Tierra <mtierra

 

Sunday, February 17, 2008 1:12:07 PM

RE: What is MSU???

 

Jason,

If you are not quite finished with this discussion, are you saying that

every treatment one gives based on TCM principles will result in cure? We

can't even agree what constitutes a fast pulse, let alone the significance

of the left and right hand " chi " pulses or lack of coat on the tongue edges

and countless other TCM precepts that require judgment and interpretation.

 

Determining hot and cold is interesting is an interesting case in point. Is

there anything in TCM that says, that one should take the patient's

temperature with a thermometer? I recently had chills during a cold. Based

on that, I would have treated it as a wind cold disease but then I took my

temperature and found that I had a fever of 102 degrees. Previously I was

taking herbs for wind cold that included cinnamon and other warming herbs.

It only passingly helped. Out of desperation, I decided to take an aspirin

(a cool natured drug derived from a cold herb - willow), My temperature

quickly went down and I immediately felt better and began to recover rather

quickly.

 

Before that I always thought I knew the difference between 'wind cold' and

'wind heat' diseases. My estimation of my condition was that it was 'wind

cold' -- I had no sore throat and I did have severe chills, having a

tendency towards low thyroid my pulse tends to be slower -- certainly not

fast which would have indicated heat. I don't remember my tongue.

 

The TCM classics only say that someone with a fever who is particularly

vulnerable and has more tendency towards chills than feelings of heat, would

have a wind-cold pattern.

 

Perhaps you might say it is my profound and deep lack of understanding of

the Chinese classics or it could be my inability to interpret them correctly

but with over 30 years experience practicing and teaching I could not get

TCM theory as I knew it at the time to resolve my condition as well as an

aspirin. I wonder if anyone else who is reading this has had similar

questions regarding colds and flus that they or someone they treated had?

 

I think CM is one of the greatest gifts to humanity but I think there are

any number of snags, pitfalls, that signal its limitation and the need for

continued expansion and evolution. Using the past as a place of departure is

important and valuable but getting stuck in it is the death of CM.

 

A little personal experience reminded me that it is not so easy after

decades of study to determine between 'wind cold' and 'wind heat' and of

course, I'll never know for sure whether it was my lack of knowledge of TCM

theory or classics or the insufficiency of that information as it is

presented. --- as the saying goes, there is indeed no substitute for

experience -- but then it seems you want to invalidate someone's experience

based on their prior 'msuing' -- there's something in this that seems a

little confused.

 

Have you or anyone on this list ever heard of diagnostic formulas? These are

when a practitioner gives a formula with strong heating, cooling, tonifying

or emptying qualities to gage the accuracy of their diagnosis by the

patient's reaction. Something that some TCM herbalists do. I have concluded

that the term diagnosis in TCM is incorrect. Rather a TCM assessment is

offered as a hypothesis for treatment. Only if the treatment results with a

favorable response could one claim that the assessment MAY have been

correct.

 

Michael Tierra

www.planetherbs. com

 

 

People can be wrong for many reasons, in fact with TCM the reasons are

multiplied hundreds fold. It is neither the only system of healing nor is it

a flawless system because it was created by flawed people and is practiced

by flawed practitioners on patients who are determined to come up with

unique conditions and patterns to confound the best of us -- thus the

limitations of healing.

 

Its insulting to say someone is " MSuing " you can comment and criticize the

merit of their ideas but not on the basis of who has or has not a superior

understanding of the classics. Just bad form -- no room for any one to grow

and learn.

 

Michael Tierra

www.planetherbs. com

 

_____

 

<< ella for Spam Control >> has removed 5360 Spam messages and set aside

3273 Newsletters for me

You can use it too - and it's FREE! www.ellaforspam. com

 

 

[Guest guest]

Michael,

 

It is certainly sad to see that someone like you, with respected experience

and dilligence, disclosing that you are unable to diagnose and treat properly

for your own external evil caused disease. This is Shang Han Lun 101. Yes, it's

true that even those who practice SHL may not agree to every measurable metric,

but I can tell you that just about anyone who claims to be practicing SHL will

be able to diagnose and treat what you had correctly.

The true sadness I have is, even among the Chinese practitioners, a very low

percentage of people are practicing SHL, and yet I know it's a very important

foundation in showcasing the power of CM.

 

On the other hand, I am encouraged to see the spirited discussions of Chinese

medical theories in the western world, as I believe good medicines should be

made available everywhere, and the more practitioners learning it the better. It

simply takes time for the deeper knowledge and experience to be passed to the

wetern world. This is only the beginning of it, as I perceive.

 

To give everyone here a boost of the confidence in CM, here's one pointer to a

3-part TV program recently shown in CCTV of China.

http://space.tv.cctv.com/act/video.jsp?videoId=VIDE1200576690792829

 

It's the story of an MD who practices wetern internal medicine in the outskirt

of BeiJing, and had had DM II with the side effect of " stomach paralysis. " She

would vomit forever. Being an MD, she sought all the experts in WM in BeiJing to

treat her disease for 5 years in vein. Before giving up, her husband took her to

see Dr. Tong (not the same last name as Master Tong or Tung we know of ) who is

a vice president of a major hospital in BeiJing. Dr. Tong gave her 4 bags of

herbs (which costs only 120 RMB, consisting of a combination of FuZiLiZhongWan

and XuanFuHuaDaiZheShiTang with very minor tailoring. These two formula are

from SHL. Her world turned around with the herbal medicine.

 

Cheers!

 

Mike L.

Michael Tierra <mtierra wrote:

Jason,

If you are not quite finished with this discussion, are you saying that

every treatment one gives based on TCM principles will result in cure? We

can't even agree what constitutes a fast pulse, let alone the significance

of the left and right hand " chi " pulses or lack of coat on the tongue edges

and countless other TCM precepts that require judgment and interpretation.

 

Determining hot and cold is interesting is an interesting case in point. Is

there anything in TCM that says, that one should take the patient's

temperature with a thermometer? I recently had chills during a cold. Based

on that, I would have treated it as a wind cold disease but then I took my

temperature and found that I had a fever of 102 degrees. Previously I was

taking herbs for wind cold that included cinnamon and other warming herbs.

It only passingly helped. Out of desperation, I decided to take an aspirin

(a cool natured drug derived from a cold herb - willow), My temperature

quickly went down and I immediately felt better and began to recover rather

quickly.

 

Before that I always thought I knew the difference between 'wind cold' and

'wind heat' diseases. My estimation of my condition was that it was 'wind

cold' -- I had no sore throat and I did have severe chills, having a

tendency towards low thyroid my pulse tends to be slower -- certainly not

fast which would have indicated heat. I don't remember my tongue.

 

The TCM classics only say that someone with a fever who is particularly

vulnerable and has more tendency towards chills than feelings of heat, would

have a wind-cold pattern.

 

Perhaps you might say it is my profound and deep lack of understanding of

the Chinese classics or it could be my inability to interpret them correctly

but with over 30 years experience practicing and teaching I could not get

TCM theory as I knew it at the time to resolve my condition as well as an

aspirin. I wonder if anyone else who is reading this has had similar

questions regarding colds and flus that they or someone they treated had?

 

I think CM is one of the greatest gifts to humanity but I think there are

any number of snags, pitfalls, that signal its limitation and the need for

continued expansion and evolution. Using the past as a place of departure is

important and valuable but getting stuck in it is the death of CM.

 

A little personal experience reminded me that it is not so easy after

decades of study to determine between 'wind cold' and 'wind heat' and of

course, I'll never know for sure whether it was my lack of knowledge of TCM

theory or classics or the insufficiency of that information as it is

presented. --- as the saying goes, there is indeed no substitute for

experience -- but then it seems you want to invalidate someone's experience

based on their prior 'msuing' -- there's something in this that seems a

little confused.

 

Have you or anyone on this list ever heard of diagnostic formulas? These are

when a practitioner gives a formula with strong heating, cooling, tonifying

or emptying qualities to gage the accuracy of their diagnosis by the

patient's reaction. Something that some TCM herbalists do. I have concluded

that the term diagnosis in TCM is incorrect. Rather a TCM assessment is

offered as a hypothesis for treatment. Only if the treatment results with a

favorable response could one claim that the assessment MAY have been

correct.

 

Michael Tierra

www.planetherbs.com

 

 

People can be wrong for many reasons, in fact with TCM the reasons are

multiplied hundreds fold. It is neither the only system of healing nor is it

a flawless system because it was created by flawed people and is practiced

by flawed practitioners on patients who are determined to come up with

unique conditions and patterns to confound the best of us -- thus the

limitations of healing.

 

Its insulting to say someone is " MSuing " you can comment and criticize the

merit of their ideas but not on the basis of who has or has not a superior

understanding of the classics. Just bad form -- no room for any one to grow

and learn.

 

Michael Tierra

www.planetherbs.com

 

_____

 

<< ella for Spam Control >> has removed 5360 Spam messages and set aside

3273 Newsletters for me

You can use it too - and it's FREE! www.ellaforspam.com

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Mike,

 

I presume by your statement that you are one who passed SHL 101, what is

your diagnosis? Have you never seen a TCM doctor with a cold or flu? One

Chinese professor offered hers response but it had nothing to do with SHL

101 and she seemed to not realize that I did not have a sore throat, nor did

I have a fast pulse, I had severe chills but all of the SHL formulas for

severe chills with a slow pulse are variations of cinnamon, ephedra

combination formulas combination.

 

Don't be so sad that your teachers are capable of getting sick just like you

and everyone else does and are not able to find ready answers for

themselves. You make it sound like a thing of shame for a TCM practitioner

to get sick. Do you have school age children? or grandchildren? are you

immune to the colds and flus of our society? I hope you don't shame and

denigrate your family, patients or anyone else because they may have gotten

sick and had a hard time recovering.

 

For you information, I've gone through and studied SHL many times over

throughout my career -- and will undoubtedly continue to study and refer to

it but in my experience and evidently subsequent generations of esteemed

Chinese doctors and scholars, it has its limitations. So if you ever find

that you were unable to come up with an effective diagnosis and treatment,

you shouldn't be so hard on yourself it just could be the limitations of

SHL. Others have certainly experienced that and as a result several other

schools of thought arose concerning the treatment of diseases each declaring

the limitation of SHL and previous thought. The most notable one being the

school of warm disease.

 

Please note that Christine Chang offered he opinion but failed to take into

account that I did not have a sore throat.

 

 

 

Just a small note, I am teaching & clinical supervisor for my students..

they did mix up the " wind cold " & " wind heat " ... regarding your symptom,

yes, you got a wind cold attach.., because you didn't aware of that the wind

cold evil went in deeper to your body, and turn to heat, body is the

battlefield between evil & righteous. Because you have a strong inner qi (

Zhong qi) so, they were fighting in your throat area and create the heat..

(that is why aspirin worked for you) ....how about da qing ye, or huang qin

or chuan xin lian pien..., those will work fast than aspirin also,, and

sorry about your last choice...

 

I completely agree with her that it was cold turned to heat and that it

became a battle with righteous Qi (zhong qi). -- which by the way is not

elucidated in SHL. If it is please point out where so I can remedy my blind

spot and benefit from your understanding. Her treatment is extremely cold

herbs and treatment -- so the presumed diagnosis she would make based on her

treatment would be 'wind heat'. Having the fever relieved with a cold

natured medicine proves that to be correct.

 

The problem is that it is theory after the fact. I'm trying to point out the

limitations of TCM diagnosis and therefore the necessity to be able to

'think out of the box' on occasion in this case it was simply to take my

temperature -- a little shortcut not unlike using the second hand to count

the pulse BPM. Is that too far out of the box to help with a diagnosis? TCM

diagnosis alone was not sufficient to determine that I had a wind heat

pattern. The only way I was aware of having heat was taking my temperature

with a thermometer. I had no sore throat, I had a lot of chills and my pulse

was not particularly fast. Tai yang disease? So I was already taking

variations of cinnamon tea combination. It had little effect and warming

therapy did not seem to hit the mark.

 

By presenting this case, I hope to point out to others that we need to be

more flexible and vainly keep applying TCM theory, hoping each time that we

will get it right. Everyone fails occasionally and TCM theory is so full of

ambiguities that occasional failure is inevitable.

 

Michael Tierra

 

 

 

 

 

<http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=201013/grpspId=1705060815/msgId=

42030/stime=1203324382/nc1=5191946/nc2=5191951/nc3=4025291>

 

 

_____

 

<< ella for Spam Control >> has removed 5364 Spam messages and set aside

3275 Newsletters for me

You can use it too - and it's FREE! www.ellaforspam.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I have used Yue ju Wan as a diagnostic formula.

 

Cara

 

Have you or anyone on this list ever heard of diagnostic formulas? These are

when a practitioner gives a formula with strong heating, cooling, tonifying

or emptying qualities to gage the accuracy of their diagnosis by the

patient's reaction. Something that some TCM herbalists do. I have concluded

that the term diagnosis in TCM is incorrect. Rather a TCM assessment is

offered as a hypothesis for treatment. Only if the treatment results with a

favorable response could one claim that the assessment MAY have been

correct.

 

Michael Tierra

www.planetherbs.com

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Michael,

 

 

 

I hope no one is claiming that CM can cure everything. However the better

clinician one gets the more things one can cure (in any system).

 

 

 

Since this overall 'debate' seems a bit stagnant at the moment I think a

worthwhile divergence is in the direction that Michael is taking this. Since

I am essentially a clinician, as most people on this list probably are,

focusing on clinical scenarios seems the best way to understand and advance

some of these issues. Extended theoretical discussions are only useful if

they can be rooted into some clinical reality.

 

 

 

I think Michael's point is heard, we have to trust ourselves and our own

experiences in the clinic and not just rely on books. I totally agree. I

think most of us also agree that we are at the tip on CM here in the west

and have a long way to go, but this no way means we can't practice what we

DO know and greatly help people out. My rant is merely to encourage the

newer practitioners / students not to just go for the trick healing

modalities or start making up theories to fill the voids that we sometimes

have from our schools.

 

 

 

As for the GANMAO:

 

 

 

First I want to thank Michael for presenting his case, and having the

humility to show his ineffectiveness in this situation. Treating oneself is

many times difficult - and ganmao is also not easy. I also find case studies

were something doesn't work much more interesting than one's than magically

cure everything. This is an opportunity to learn.

 

 

 

I happen to be fortunate enough to treat a large number of ganmao, at least

a few everyday during the winter. Therefore, my guess, from the way you

describe things, is that you probably prescribed incorrectly for yourself,

but we will never know. (You should right up your case study.) All in all, I

find CM very reliable for ganmao. However, there are many formulas and many

shades of grey when prescribing clinically for ganmao. It is not as simple

as is it just wind-cold or wind-heat. Sometimes we do something simple (gui

zhi tang) and it works great sometimes it doesn't.. what gives.?

 

 

 

I have one Chinese book with 100's of formulas for ganmao with 25+ patterns.

Once one decides on the correct pattern, all of the formulas can be modified

for the individual based on their presentation / constitution (i.e.

underlying deficiencies etc) and which aspects are strongest etc. It is not

an easy cut and dry topic. Many times it is neither wind-cold or wind-heat,

but somewhere in the middle. Simple black and white break downs of w-c and

w-h, taught in school, crumble very quickly in day to day clinical settings.

(BTW: One can have 102 fever with any number of ganmao patterns (cold heat

etc), and modern TCM texts do pay attention to the thermometer.)

 

 

 

You mention aspirin. I think what Christine pointed out is semi-correct in

regard to the aspirin. Even in wind-cold (or wind-heat) one can use overly

cold medicinals (relative to the pattern) to stop symptoms; look at some of

the over-the-counter cold CM formulas. Although this does not mean it was a

good thing - The real question is, did it vent the pathogen? If your body is

unable to vent the pathogen (and the therapy is too cold (i.e..

antibiotics)) then it can create a lurking pathogen.

 

 

 

Ganmao is a favorite topic of mine, I probably translate / read 1 article or

chapter from classical texts (or about famous doctors) a week on the topic.

I just finished reading a great article on Ye Tian-Shi's differentiation of

cold damage and warm disease. Even such a simple topic, as Michael points

out, can have many ways to tackle it. If one does not properly differentiate

and weigh all the possible influences then one will have an ineffective

treatment. One only needs to spend a few hours reading case studies to

realize how deep ganmao can be. I really think CM has figured ganmao out

pretty well, I would be surprised if it was a major lacuna in CM theory.

 

 

 

Presenting cases and quagmires that come up in the clinic are worth 1000

pieces of gold. I always find when I am stuck, or think that CM doesn't have

the answer, asking others can many times illuminate things. This in turn

expands my thinking and may point me into an avenue of needed or wanted

study.

 

 

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Michael Tierra

Sunday, February 17, 2008 2:12 PM

 

RE: What is MSU???

 

 

 

Jason,

If you are not quite finished with this discussion, are you saying that

every treatment one gives based on TCM principles will result in cure? We

can't even agree what constitutes a fast pulse, let alone the significance

of the left and right hand " chi " pulses or lack of coat on the tongue edges

and countless other TCM precepts that require judgment and interpretation.

 

Determining hot and cold is interesting is an interesting case in point. Is

there anything in TCM that says, that one should take the patient's

temperature with a thermometer? I recently had chills during a cold. Based

on that, I would have treated it as a wind cold disease but then I took my

temperature and found that I had a fever of 102 degrees. Previously I was

taking herbs for wind cold that included cinnamon and other warming herbs.

It only passingly helped. Out of desperation, I decided to take an aspirin

(a cool natured drug derived from a cold herb - willow), My temperature

quickly went down and I immediately felt better and began to recover rather

quickly.

 

Before that I always thought I knew the difference between 'wind cold' and

'wind heat' diseases. My estimation of my condition was that it was 'wind

cold' -- I had no sore throat and I did have severe chills, having a

tendency towards low thyroid my pulse tends to be slower -- certainly not

fast which would have indicated heat. I don't remember my tongue.

 

The TCM classics only say that someone with a fever who is particularly

vulnerable and has more tendency towards chills than feelings of heat, would

have a wind-cold pattern.

 

Perhaps you might say it is my profound and deep lack of understanding of

the Chinese classics or it could be my inability to interpret them correctly

but with over 30 years experience practicing and teaching I could not get

TCM theory as I knew it at the time to resolve my condition as well as an

aspirin. I wonder if anyone else who is reading this has had similar

questions regarding colds and flus that they or someone they treated had?

 

I think CM is one of the greatest gifts to humanity but I think there are

any number of snags, pitfalls, that signal its limitation and the need for

continued expansion and evolution. Using the past as a place of departure is

important and valuable but getting stuck in it is the death of CM.

 

A little personal experience reminded me that it is not so easy after

decades of study to determine between 'wind cold' and 'wind heat' and of

course, I'll never know for sure whether it was my lack of knowledge of TCM

theory or classics or the insufficiency of that information as it is

presented. --- as the saying goes, there is indeed no substitute for

experience -- but then it seems you want to invalidate someone's experience

based on their prior 'msuing' -- there's something in this that seems a

little confused.

 

Have you or anyone on this list ever heard of diagnostic formulas? These are

when a practitioner gives a formula with strong heating, cooling, tonifying

or emptying qualities to gage the accuracy of their diagnosis by the

patient's reaction. Something that some TCM herbalists do. I have concluded

that the term diagnosis in TCM is incorrect. Rather a TCM assessment is

offered as a hypothesis for treatment. Only if the treatment results with a

favorable response could one claim that the assessment MAY have been

correct.

 

Michael Tierra

www.planetherbs.com

 

 

People can be wrong for many reasons, in fact with TCM the reasons are

multiplied hundreds fold. It is neither the only system of healing nor is it

a flawless system because it was created by flawed people and is practiced

by flawed practitioners on patients who are determined to come up with

unique conditions and patterns to confound the best of us -- thus the

limitations of healing.

 

Its insulting to say someone is " MSuing " you can comment and criticize the

merit of their ideas but not on the basis of who has or has not a superior

understanding of the classics. Just bad form -- no room for any one to grow

and learn.

 

Michael Tierra

www.planetherbs.com

 

_____

 

<< ella for Spam Control >> has removed 5360 Spam messages and set aside

3273 Newsletters for me

You can use it too - and it's FREE! www.ellaforspam.com

 

 

[Guest guest]

Mike L.,

 

When a member of the group has the courage to voice their confusion in

public, it is counterproductive to look down your nose at them and

chastise them. You could have made your point without being

condescending. It is through our arguments that we will all learn more

about Chinese medicine. Let's try to disagree without getting personal.

 

- Bill

 

 

, Mike Liaw <mikeliaw wrote:

>

> Michael,

>

> It is certainly sad to see that someone like you, with respected

experience and dilligence, disclosing that you are unable to diagnose

and treat properly for your own external evil caused disease. This is

Shang Han Lun 101. Yes, it's true that even those who practice SHL may

not agree to every measurable metric, but I can tell you that just

about anyone who claims to be practicing SHL will be able to diagnose

and treat what you had correctly.

> The true sadness I have is, even among the Chinese practitioners,

a very low percentage of people are practicing SHL, and yet I know

it's a very important foundation in showcasing the power of CM.

 

> ........

>

> Cheers!

>

> Mike L.

[Guest guest]

Dear Michael,

 

You wrote:

 

>I presume by your statement that you are one who passed SHL 101, what is

your diagnosis?

 

MHL: 1) Passing xxx simply means passing; it is not a guarantee that one will

not fail the subject after passing it. I passed Englished 101 many years ago,

yet I have been misunderstood.

 

2) I have never been tested on SHL 101, really, except in the clinics.

Yes, my patients and many friends who refer their patients to me will probably

say I pass SHL 101.

 

3) The info you gave indicates you had Biao(3)Zheng(4) because you

have chill which I take it as aversion to cold. And you have heat. With these, I

would start assessing how I can tailor MaHuangTang by further checking out your

other conditions(sweating, or not, for example), reading your face, touching

certain spots, before deciding the formulation and the weight of each herb.

While I started out by thinking about MaHuangTang, with these further check out,

I may change my mind, but sticking to having BiaoZheng with aversion to cold

won't be changed. I largely agree with Jason's response (the one where he talks

about GanMao at large.) The extent of attempt you had included " cinnamon and

other warming herbs " but failed to point out the key element of resolving Biao.

This is where I think you failed SHL 101. (Note that cinnamon is not a Biao

resolving herb; cinnamon twig is.)

 

> Have you never seen a TCM doctor with a cold or flu? One

Chinese professor offered hers response but it had nothing to do with SHL

101 and she seemed to not realize that I did not have a sore throat, nor did

I have a fast pulse, I had severe chills but all of the SHL formulas for

severe chills with a slow pulse are variations of cinnamon, ephedra

combination formulas combination.

MHL:

 

1) Yes, I have seen a lot of TCM doctors with a cold or flu. However, I

have also seen a lot of them who either don't get cold often, or don't get it

for a few years. In the mean time, I am not saying good doctors don't get cold

either. Most of us, including myself, do.

2) I did not speak for Prof. Chang. Whether or not she practices SHL

should come from her response.

 

> Don't be so sad that your teachers are capable of getting sick just like you

and everyone else does and are not able to find ready answers for

themselves. You make it sound like a thing of shame for a TCM practitioner

to get sick. Do you have school age children? or grandchildren? are you

immune to the colds and flus of our society? I hope you don't shame and

denigrate your family, patients or anyone else because they may have gotten

sick and had a hard time recovering.

MHL:

1) Don't get me wrong, I only speak to my own sadness, which wasn't

intended to offend you. I apologize if it's misunderstood. (You see how I failed

to practice well when I have passed English 101 many years ago.)

2) No, I never shame people for their getting sick. Quite to the

contrary, I get involved because I care, with compassion and with the limited

amount of time I can afford. I strive to abide by what Sun Si Miao said in his

DaYiJingCheng chapter. Michael, you need to read to capture the context. Shaming

on patients for their sickness should not have been derived from my previous

response, despite my flawed English expressions. I even gave a live example with

the video to cheer people up. If you employ the similar way to read SHL and

other classical texts your mileage will be very limited.

 

> For you information, I've gone through and studied SHL many times over

throughout my career -- and will undoubtedly continue to study and refer to

it but in my experience and evidently subsequent generations of esteemed

Chinese doctors and scholars, it has its limitations. So if you ever find

that you were unable to come up with an effective diagnosis and treatment,

you shouldn't be so hard on yourself it just could be the limitations of

SHL.

MHL: I agree.

 

> Others have certainly experienced that and as a result several other

schools of thought arose concerning the treatment of diseases each declaring

the limitation of SHL and previous thought. The most notable one being the

school of warm disease.

 

MHL: WenBing came more than 1000 years after SHL, after generations of

evolution. They declared the limitation, rightly so. However, what's important

is, they did not invalidate SHL. To me, as a science and engineering trained

person, these are just different approaches to the same YinYang impalance. I

choose and strive to use SHL as much as I can as some of my teachers do. (And of

course, these teachers all have a varying degree of SHL/WenBing they practice.)

 

> Please note that Christine Chang offered he opinion but failed to take into

account that I did not have a sore throat.

MHL: I have nothing to comment on this as I don't see the connection of her

statements with my comments unless she claims to practice SHL.

 

> I completely agree with her that it was cold turned to heat and that it

became a battle with righteous Qi (zhong qi). -- which by the way is not

elucidated in SHL.

 

MHL: Keep in mind that SHL was " written " ( I put it in quotes because it's not

really written per se in modern sense) more than 1800 years ago. Due to the

limited means at that time, the text is pretty terse. If you are only reading

SHL text, of couse you are not seeing these. There has been commentaries in the

generations following Zhang Zhong Jing.

 

> If it is please point out where so I can remedy my blind

spot and benefit from your understanding.

 

MHL: Read the commentaries in addition to modern interpretations [ Cheng Wu Ji

(Ming dynasty), Tang Rong Chuan (Qing Dynasty), Cao Ying Fu (Qing Dynasty), etc.

for example.]

 

 

> Her treatment is extremely cold herbs and treatment -- so the presumed

diagnosis she would make based on her treatment would be 'wind heat'.

 

MHL: You and Prof. Chang can be right here, but which stage are you talking

about? Very often, wind cold changes to wind heat, sometimes very quickly but

sometimes very slowly, sometimes with variations and sometimes with littel

variation. It's not that straight forward or cut-n-dry.

 

> Having the fever relieved with a cold natured medicine proves that to be

correct.

 

MHL: You could be right, but I am not as sure. You really have to look at the

changes in the patient more holistically. What I am trying to point out here

is, you only idicated the change in one single metric (fever relieved); are you

sure you are not missing other changes? If the answer is yes, then I'd agree

with your assessment.

 

> The problem is that it is theory after the fact. I'm trying to point out the

limitations of TCM diagnosis and therefore the necessity to be able to

'think out of the box' on occasion in this case it was simply to take my

temperature -- a little shortcut not unlike using the second hand to count

the pulse BPM. Is that too far out of the box to help with a diagnosis? TCM

diagnosis alone was not sufficient to determine that I had a wind heat

pattern. The only way I was aware of having heat was taking my temperature

with a thermometer. I had no sore throat, I had a lot of chills and my pulse

was not particularly fast. Tai yang disease? So I was already taking

variations of cinnamon tea combination. It had little effect and warming

therapy did not seem to hit the mark.

 

MHL: I think out of the box all the time, everyday, in fact, both as a business

division level program manager in a high tech company and as a CM practitioner.

However, with experience, certain out of the box thinking I will not try. Take

measuring the temperature as an example. Experience tells me it's a helpful

metric at times, but it's not a required one. CM's granularity (limitations, in

some people's eyes) is more coarse than thermometer; not only that, sometimes,

the temperature is not a relevant metric. Take Fan(2) ( uncomfortable,

uneasiness, irritated? I don't have a good translation; maybe Jason or Z'ev can

help here) in SHL as an example, it some scenarios involve temperature elevation

but not in other.

 

OK, this is already taking too much of my allocation for internet discussion.

 

All I wanted to say is, if you believe you are reading repeatedly of certain

text and still not feeling enlightened, you may want to think out of the box of

how you learn. My approach has been mixing reading, thinking, practicing, and

learning from experts of all sorts as much as I can. Our milesages will vary,

but what should be common to us all is, our patients do get better and faster,

our families are more impressed and supportive, and our confidence is higher,

feel happier, year after year.

 

I wish you the best of luck in learning and practicing CM!

 

Mike L.

 

Michael Tierra <mtierra wrote:

Dear Mike,

 

I presume by your statement that you are one who passed SHL 101, what is

your diagnosis? Have you never seen a TCM doctor with a cold or flu? One

Chinese professor offered hers response but it had nothing to do with SHL

101 and she seemed to not realize that I did not have a sore throat, nor did

I have a fast pulse, I had severe chills but all of the SHL formulas for

severe chills with a slow pulse are variations of cinnamon, ephedra

combination formulas combination.

 

Don't be so sad that your teachers are capable of getting sick just like you

and everyone else does and are not able to find ready answers for

themselves. You make it sound like a thing of shame for a TCM practitioner

to get sick. Do you have school age children? or grandchildren? are you

immune to the colds and flus of our society? I hope you don't shame and

denigrate your family, patients or anyone else because they may have gotten

sick and had a hard time recovering.

 

For you information, I've gone through and studied SHL many times over

throughout my career -- and will undoubtedly continue to study and refer to

it but in my experience and evidently subsequent generations of esteemed

Chinese doctors and scholars, it has its limitations. So if you ever find

that you were unable to come up with an effective diagnosis and treatment,

you shouldn't be so hard on yourself it just could be the limitations of

SHL. Others have certainly experienced that and as a result several other

schools of thought arose concerning the treatment of diseases each declaring

the limitation of SHL and previous thought. The most notable one being the

school of warm disease.

 

Please note that Christine Chang offered he opinion but failed to take into

account that I did not have a sore throat.

 

 

 

Just a small note, I am teaching & clinical supervisor for my students..

they did mix up the " wind cold " & " wind heat " ... regarding your symptom,

yes, you got a wind cold attach.., because you didn't aware of that the wind

cold evil went in deeper to your body, and turn to heat, body is the

battlefield between evil & righteous. Because you have a strong inner qi (

Zhong qi) so, they were fighting in your throat area and create the heat..

(that is why aspirin worked for you) ....how about da qing ye, or huang qin

or chuan xin lian pien..., those will work fast than aspirin also,, and

sorry about your last choice...

 

I completely agree with her that it was cold turned to heat and that it

became a battle with righteous Qi (zhong qi). -- which by the way is not

elucidated in SHL. If it is please point out where so I can remedy my blind

spot and benefit from your understanding. Her treatment is extremely cold

herbs and treatment -- so the presumed diagnosis she would make based on her

treatment would be 'wind heat'. Having the fever relieved with a cold

natured medicine proves that to be correct.

 

The problem is that it is theory after the fact. I'm trying to point out the

limitations of TCM diagnosis and therefore the necessity to be able to

'think out of the box' on occasion in this case it was simply to take my

temperature -- a little shortcut not unlike using the second hand to count

the pulse BPM. Is that too far out of the box to help with a diagnosis? TCM

diagnosis alone was not sufficient to determine that I had a wind heat

pattern. The only way I was aware of having heat was taking my temperature

with a thermometer. I had no sore throat, I had a lot of chills and my pulse

was not particularly fast. Tai yang disease? So I was already taking

variations of cinnamon tea combination. It had little effect and warming

therapy did not seem to hit the mark.

 

By presenting this case, I hope to point out to others that we need to be

more flexible and vainly keep applying TCM theory, hoping each time that we

will get it right. Everyone fails occasionally and TCM theory is so full of

ambiguities that occasional failure is inevitable.

 

Michael Tierra

 

<http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=201013/grpspId=1705060815/msgId=

42030/stime=1203324382/nc1=5191946/nc2=5191951/nc3=4025291>

 

 

_____

 

<< ella for Spam Control >> has removed 5364 Spam messages and set aside

3275 Newsletters for me

You can use it too - and it's FREE! www.ellaforspam.com

 

 

[Guest guest]

Michael

Regardless of what ever rhetoric one is using, lets be truthful about treatment

of flues and colds, how big of an influence do we really get Consistently. not

only i have treated thousands of colds i have also seen these treated in china

as well as in US by other well known herbalists. While i truly believe CM does

help, in the majority of cases its symptomatic and its questionable if it

shortens duration in a predictable way. Where i find CM most helpful is in

people that have not recovered as well as others from a flu or cold.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Mike

with all due respect, if truthful, how many time have you see SHL experts fail

in treating a cold, and what i mean by that is the cold lasted just as long as

most other people affected by it. I studied with a SHL expert in china and seen

this just as often as what could be considered a success by someone willing to

be critical in evaluating the results

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Bill,

 

I was expressing my own sadness for experiencing the learning curve of us all.

Let's put it in another way, if I did not have high regard and expectation of

Michael I wouldn't have been sad. When I was in the CM school in the late 90's,

if the teacher fell short of our expectations, we felt sad, but, no, no, no, by

no means we looked down our noses. I hope this gives you the context of where I

was last night

 

To apologize for what might have been misunderstood, and to show that I really

care, I have answered everypoint of what Michael responded with sincerity. I

hope I don't get kicked out of this forum. (Well, I probably won't, I am

thinking.)

 

Mike L.

 

bill_schoenbart <plantmed2 wrote:

Mike L.,

 

When a member of the group has the courage to voice their confusion in

public, it is counterproductive to look down your nose at them and

chastise them. You could have made your point without being

condescending. It is through our arguments that we will all learn more

about Chinese medicine. Let's try to disagree without getting personal.

 

- Bill

 

, Mike Liaw <mikeliaw wrote:

>

> Michael,

>

> It is certainly sad to see that someone like you, with respected

experience and dilligence, disclosing that you are unable to diagnose

and treat properly for your own external evil caused disease. This is

Shang Han Lun 101. Yes, it's true that even those who practice SHL may

not agree to every measurable metric, but I can tell you that just

about anyone who claims to be practicing SHL will be able to diagnose

and treat what you had correctly.

> The true sadness I have is, even among the Chinese practitioners,

a very low percentage of people are practicing SHL, and yet I know

it's a very important foundation in showcasing the power of CM.

 

> ........

>

> Cheers!

>

> Mike L.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Never miss a thing. Make your homepage.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

Many times.

 

Experts miss it because they have limited time and opportunities to observe

the patients closely in a typical hospital setting. When they do, the results

are much better. I have only a passing grade for SHL 101 but my family members

and patients do recover from cold much visibly quicker than otherwise because I

examine and observe them closely. (I myself would catch cold many times a year

before learning CM, but I indeed have had only one full course cold, taking ~3

weeks to recover when I was in the first year of CM in 1999. It's not that I am

balanced all the time, hardly so, in fact. However, I do have the advantage of

practicing QiGong besides early detection of cold and nail it overnight for

myself.)

 

Mike L.

 

Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote:

Mike

with all due respect, if truthful, how many time have you see SHL experts fail

in treating a cold, and what i mean by that is the cold lasted just as long as

most other people affected by it. I studied with a SHL expert in china and seen

this just as often as what could be considered a success by someone willing to

be critical in evaluating the results

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Mike,

 

Thanks for clarifying your position. I doubt if you will be kicked off

the group!

 

I think it can be very difficult to argue points on the web or in

email without creating some emotional confusion. Any emotion that is

expressed or implied can be magnified way out of proportion in this

format. I have received replies to some of my comments that seemed a

bit nasty, and I have looked back at some of my own comments and saw

how they could have been misinterpreted as well. I guess the best we

can do is to try to understand how we would feel if somebody said the

same thing to us, before we post it. And to not post messages when we

are upset or angry, since those are the ones that we look at the next

day and think " ouch! " .

 

This group generally has good relations. I have seen other groups

where people leave or stop posting out of fear of getting attacked

personally. I don't want to see that happen here, since our arguments

are so useful in expanding the knowledge base and understanding of

Chinese medicine. We should always feel free to attack the ideas of a

person, without actually attacking the person. Easier said than done

sometimes.

 

- Bill

 

 

 

, Mike Liaw <mikeliaw wrote:

>

> Dear Bill,

>

> I was expressing my own sadness for experiencing the learning

curve of us all.

> Let's put it in another way, if I did not have high regard and

expectation of Michael I wouldn't have been sad. When I was in the CM

school in the late 90's, if the teacher fell short of our

expectations, we felt sad, but, no, no, no, by no means we looked down

our noses. I hope this gives you the context of where I was last night

>

> To apologize for what might have been misunderstood, and to show

that I really care, I have answered everypoint of what Michael

responded with sincerity. I hope I don't get kicked out of this forum.

(Well, I probably won't, I am thinking.)

>

> Mike L.

>

> bill_schoenbart <plantmed2 wrote:

> Mike L.,

>

> When a member of the group has the courage to voice their confusion in

> public, it is counterproductive to look down your nose at them and

> chastise them. You could have made your point without being

> condescending. It is through our arguments that we will all learn more

> about Chinese medicine. Let's try to disagree without getting personal.

>

> - Bill

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Bill and all for group moderating this. Yes, Mike L's post did

raise a red flag but I let it pass because we are all adults and it

hadn't gone to far. Just to be clear... please don't post criticisms

of others diagnosis, treatment or lack of it. If you want more

clarification then ask or have another concept by all means tell us.

It would be great if more people would post what they are not sure of

than people who are dead sure that they are right!

doug

 

 

 

, " bill_schoenbart "

<plantmed2 wrote:

>

> Mike,

>

> Thanks for clarifying your position. I doubt if you will be kicked off

> the group!

>

> I think it can be very difficult to argue points on the web or in

> email without creating some emotional confusion. Any emotion that is

> expressed or implied can be magnified way out of proportion in this

> format. I have received replies to some of my comments that seemed a

> bit nasty, and I have looked back at some of my own comments and saw

> how they could have been misinterpreted as well. I guess the best we

> can do is to try to understand how we would feel if somebody said the

> same thing to us, before we post it. And to not post messages when we

> are upset or angry, since those are the ones that we look at the next

> day and think " ouch! " .

>

> This group generally has good relations. I have seen other groups

> where people leave or stop posting out of fear of getting attacked

> personally. I don't want to see that happen here, since our arguments

> are so useful in expanding the knowledge base and understanding of

> Chinese medicine. We should always feel free to attack the ideas of a

> person, without actually attacking the person. Easier said than done

> sometimes.

>

> - Bill

>

>

>

> , Mike Liaw <mikeliaw@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Bill,

> >

> > I was expressing my own sadness for experiencing the learning

> curve of us all.

> > Let's put it in another way, if I did not have high regard and

> expectation of Michael I wouldn't have been sad. When I was in the CM

> school in the late 90's, if the teacher fell short of our

> expectations, we felt sad, but, no, no, no, by no means we looked down

> our noses. I hope this gives you the context of where I was last night

> >

> > To apologize for what might have been misunderstood, and to show

> that I really care, I have answered everypoint of what Michael

> responded with sincerity. I hope I don't get kicked out of this forum.

> (Well, I probably won't, I am thinking.)

> >

> > Mike L.

> >

> > bill_schoenbart <plantmed2@> wrote:

> > Mike L.,

> >

> > When a member of the group has the courage to voice their confusion in

> > public, it is counterproductive to look down your nose at them and

> > chastise them. You could have made your point without being

> > condescending. It is through our arguments that we will all learn more

> > about Chinese medicine. Let's try to disagree without getting

personal.

> >

> > - Bill

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Respectfully, Michael, your formula conclusions from SHL are utterly wrong,

and of course I meant cinnamon twigs (gui zhi) not rou gui -- unless you

intend to to kill me with taking all my defensive energy and throwing it

outside of my body -- now I don't think that would be a very pleasant death

-- hollow inside throw all your weapons over the wall of the castle. Wen

bing theory occurred because externally caused conditions were occurring

that SHL theory was not able to address -- these were suspected as being

pathogenic based and of epidemic proportions which is what we are dealing

with for the most part with today's colds and flus. That's why most people

are using Gan mao, chuan xin lian and yin chiao type formulas which have

absolutely no basis in SHL -- these are used for qi level disease.

 

My question which at this point was theoretical is to point out that CM

diagnostics are not perfect and all of the carrying on about 'if you

exhaustively study the classics you will always know what to do, as I

pointed out based on current training one cannot even agree on what is a

fast pulse, let alone whether the pulse would be faster in a position on

both wrists that is less than an inch and a half apart -- what do the

classics or for that matter reading the primary literature in their own

language have to say to address this miner discrepancy which is so obvious

but few would dare to ask for fear of suffering embarrassment from

orthodoxy.

 

The classics did not tell me to use a thermometer anymore than their telling

me to use a wrist watch to gage the number of BPM. Different schools can't

come to a consensus as to whether counting the number of pulse per breath is

the patient's or the practitioner. Maciocia and Bob Flaws says it is the

practitioners but evidently some texts and Jeffrey Yuen say it is the

patients.

 

With all of these discrepancies some would frown upon anyone who might even

try to apply common sense to figure these and other knotty problems out for

themselves.

 

I neither had a fast pulse (at most perhaps 65, nor did I have a sore

throat, nor was my tongue red bodied --- I had severe chills. Every source I

have ever read and studied and that includes a lot more than some of you

want to give me credit for says that from the traditional diagnostic

indications alone I had a wind cold condition.

 

It was the thermometer and subsequent result of taking an aspirin (something

I seldom if ever do because I've heard and have taught many times about the

possible repercussion of suppressed pathogen -- I decided what the heck it

is an extreme bitter, its what I had and I'm glad I took it.

 

Interestingly at an earlier stage of the cold I did take Chuan Xin lien and

got more chills which I didn't get from the aspirin.

 

So to quote Shakespeare, " There are more things in heaven and earth,

Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy, Horatio. " (5th act of

Hamlet).

 

I don't think any of us can afford to be so smug as to the certainty of our

prowess in treating infectious diseases. Certainly we need to use Wen Bing

theory more and perhaps expand upon it.

 

I have found that cinnamon twig tea is very effective for individuals who

are remarkably weak and deficient and catch colds.

 

By the way, the lingering cough and soquella that typically follows colds

and flus is usually brilliantly treated with Xiao chai hu tang.

 

Michael Tierra

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Mike Liaw

Monday, February 18, 2008 10:56 AM

 

RE: What is MSU???

 

 

 

Dear Michael,

 

You wrote:

 

>I presume by your statement that you are one who passed SHL 101, what is

your diagnosis?

 

MHL: 1) Passing xxx simply means passing; it is not a guarantee that one

will not fail the subject after passing it. I passed Englished 101 many

years ago, yet I have been misunderstood.

 

2) I have never been tested on SHL 101, really, except in the clinics. Yes,

my patients and many friends who refer their patients to me will probably

say I pass SHL 101.

 

3) The info you gave indicates you had Biao(3)Zheng(4) because you have

chill which I take it as aversion to cold. And you have heat. With these, I

would start assessing how I can tailor MaHuangTang by further checking out

your other conditions(sweating, or not, for example), reading your face,

touching certain spots, before deciding the formulation and the weight of

each herb. While I started out by thinking about MaHuangTang, with these

further check out, I may change my mind, but sticking to having BiaoZheng

with aversion to cold won't be changed. I largely agree with Jason's

response (the one where he talks about GanMao at large.) The extent of

attempt you had included " cinnamon and other warming herbs " but failed to

point out the key element of resolving Biao. This is where I think you

failed SHL 101. (Note that cinnamon is not a Biao resolving herb; cinnamon

twig is.)

 

> Have you never seen a TCM doctor with a cold or flu? One

Chinese professor offered hers response but it had nothing to do with SHL

101 and she seemed to not realize that I did not have a sore throat, nor did

I have a fast pulse, I had severe chills but all of the SHL formulas for

severe chills with a slow pulse are variations of cinnamon, ephedra

combination formulas combination.

MHL:

 

1) Yes, I have seen a lot of TCM doctors with a cold or flu. However, I have

also seen a lot of them who either don't get cold often, or don't get it for

a few years. In the mean time, I am not saying good doctors don't get cold

either. Most of us, including myself, do.

2) I did not speak for Prof. Chang. Whether or not she practices SHL should

come from her response.

 

> Don't be so sad that your teachers are capable of getting sick just like

you

and everyone else does and are not able to find ready answers for

themselves. You make it sound like a thing of shame for a TCM practitioner

to get sick. Do you have school age children? or grandchildren? are you

immune to the colds and flus of our society? I hope you don't shame and

denigrate your family, patients or anyone else because they may have gotten

sick and had a hard time recovering.

MHL:

1) Don't get me wrong, I only speak to my own sadness, which wasn't intended

to offend you. I apologize if it's misunderstood. (You see how I failed to

practice well when I have passed English 101 many years ago.)

2) No, I never shame people for their getting sick. Quite to the contrary, I

get involved because I care, with compassion and with the limited amount of

time I can afford. I strive to abide by what Sun Si Miao said in his

DaYiJingCheng chapter. Michael, you need to read to capture the context.

Shaming on patients for their sickness should not have been derived from my

previous response, despite my flawed English expressions. I even gave a live

example with the video to cheer people up. If you employ the similar way to

read SHL and other classical texts your mileage will be very limited.

 

> For you information, I've gone through and studied SHL many times over

throughout my career -- and will undoubtedly continue to study and refer to

it but in my experience and evidently subsequent generations of esteemed

Chinese doctors and scholars, it has its limitations. So if you ever find

that you were unable to come up with an effective diagnosis and treatment,

you shouldn't be so hard on yourself it just could be the limitations of

SHL.

MHL: I agree.

 

> Others have certainly experienced that and as a result several other

schools of thought arose concerning the treatment of diseases each declaring

the limitation of SHL and previous thought. The most notable one being the

school of warm disease.

 

MHL: WenBing came more than 1000 years after SHL, after generations of

evolution. They declared the limitation, rightly so. However, what's

important is, they did not invalidate SHL. To me, as a science and

engineering trained person, these are just different approaches to the same

YinYang impalance. I choose and strive to use SHL as much as I can as some

of my teachers do. (And of course, these teachers all have a varying degree

of SHL/WenBing they practice.)

 

> Please note that Christine Chang offered he opinion but failed to take

into

account that I did not have a sore throat.

MHL: I have nothing to comment on this as I don't see the connection of her

statements with my comments unless she claims to practice SHL.

 

> I completely agree with her that it was cold turned to heat and that it

became a battle with righteous Qi (zhong qi). -- which by the way is not

elucidated in SHL.

 

MHL: Keep in mind that SHL was " written " ( I put it in quotes because it's

not really written per se in modern sense) more than 1800 years ago. Due to

the limited means at that time, the text is pretty terse. If you are only

reading SHL text, of couse you are not seeing these. There has been

commentaries in the generations following Zhang Zhong Jing.

 

> If it is please point out where so I can remedy my blind

spot and benefit from your understanding.

 

MHL: Read the commentaries in addition to modern interpretations [ Cheng Wu

Ji (Ming dynasty), Tang Rong Chuan (Qing Dynasty), Cao Ying Fu (Qing

Dynasty), etc. for example.]

 

 

> Her treatment is extremely cold herbs and treatment -- so the presumed

diagnosis she would make based on her treatment would be 'wind heat'.

 

MHL: You and Prof. Chang can be right here, but which stage are you talking

about? Very often, wind cold changes to wind heat, sometimes very quickly

but sometimes very slowly, sometimes with variations and sometimes with

littel variation. It's not that straight forward or cut-n-dry.

 

> Having the fever relieved with a cold natured medicine proves that to be

correct.

 

MHL: You could be right, but I am not as sure. You really have to look at

the changes in the patient more holistically. What I am trying to point out

here is, you only idicated the change in one single metric (fever relieved);

are you sure you are not missing other changes? If the answer is yes, then

I'd agree with your assessment.

 

> The problem is that it is theory after the fact. I'm trying to point out

the

limitations of TCM diagnosis and therefore the necessity to be able to

'think out of the box' on occasion in this case it was simply to take my

temperature -- a little shortcut not unlike using the second hand to count

the pulse BPM. Is that too far out of the box to help with a diagnosis? TCM

diagnosis alone was not sufficient to determine that I had a wind heat

pattern. The only way I was aware of having heat was taking my temperature

with a thermometer. I had no sore throat, I had a lot of chills and my pulse

was not particularly fast. Tai yang disease? So I was already taking

variations of cinnamon tea combination. It had little effect and warming

therapy did not seem to hit the mark.

 

MHL: I think out of the box all the time, everyday, in fact, both as a

business division level program manager in a high tech company and as a CM

practitioner. However, with experience, certain out of the box thinking I

will not try. Take measuring the temperature as an example. Experience tells

me it's a helpful metric at times, but it's not a required one. CM's

granularity (limitations, in some people's eyes) is more coarse than

thermometer; not only that, sometimes, the temperature is not a relevant

metric. Take Fan(2) ( uncomfortable, uneasiness, irritated? I don't have a

good translation; maybe Jason or Z'ev can help here) in SHL as an example,

it some scenarios involve temperature elevation but not in other.

 

OK, this is already taking too much of my allocation for internet

discussion.

 

All I wanted to say is, if you believe you are reading repeatedly of certain

text and still not feeling enlightened, you may want to think out of the box

of how you learn. My approach has been mixing reading, thinking, practicing,

and learning from experts of all sorts as much as I can. Our milesages will

vary, but what should be common to us all is, our patients do get better and

faster, our families are more impressed and supportive, and our confidence

is higher, feel happier, year after year.

 

I wish you the best of luck in learning and practicing CM!

 

Mike L.

[Guest guest]

Wow, Alon -- I couldn't have said it better but if I did I think someone

would attack me on this list for failing SHL 101.

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Alon Marcus

Monday, February 18, 2008 11:00 AM

 

Re: What is MSU???

 

 

 

Michael

Regardless of what ever rhetoric one is using, lets be truthful about

treatment of flues and colds, how big of an influence do we really get

Consistently. not only i have treated thousands of colds i have also seen

these treated in china as well as in US by other well known herbalists.

While i truly believe CM does help, in the majority of cases its symptomatic

and its questionable if it shortens duration in a predictable way. Where i

find CM most helpful is in people that have not recovered as well as others

from a flu or cold.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I hope you don't kicked out either -- I'm considering leaving and giving

everybody a break including myself. Michael

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Mike Liaw

Monday, February 18, 2008 11:19 AM

 

Re: What is MSU???

 

 

 

Dear Bill,

 

I was expressing my own sadness for experiencing the learning curve of us

all.

Let's put it in another way, if I did not have high regard and expectation

of Michael I wouldn't have been sad. When I was in the CM school in the late

90's, if the teacher fell short of our expectations, we felt sad, but, no,

no, no, by no means we looked down our noses. I hope this gives you the

context of where I was last night

 

To apologize for what might have been misunderstood, and to show that I

really care, I have answered everypoint of what Michael responded with

sincerity. I hope I don't get kicked out of this forum. (Well, I probably

won't, I am thinking.)

 

Mike L.

 

bill_schoenbart <plantmed2 (AT) gmail (DOT) <plantmed2%40gmail.com> com> wrote:

Mike L.,

 

When a member of the group has the courage to voice their confusion in

public, it is counterproductive to look down your nose at them and

chastise them. You could have made your point without being

condescending. It is through our arguments that we will all learn more

about Chinese medicine. Let's try to disagree without getting personal.

 

- Bill

 

@ <%40>

, Mike Liaw <mikeliaw wrote:

>

> Michael,

>

> It is certainly sad to see that someone like you, with respected

experience and dilligence, disclosing that you are unable to diagnose

and treat properly for your own external evil caused disease. This is

Shang Han Lun 101. Yes, it's true that even those who practice SHL may

not agree to every measurable metric, but I can tell you that just

about anyone who claims to be practicing SHL will be able to diagnose

and treat what you had correctly.

> The true sadness I have is, even among the Chinese practitioners,

a very low percentage of people are practicing SHL, and yet I know

it's a very important foundation in showcasing the power of CM.

 

> ........

>

> Cheers!

>

> Mike L.

 

 

Never miss a thing. Make your homepage.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Frequent colds are handily nipped in the bud with jade screen formula -- I

once had a small child who would catch a cold every two weeks. It was not

full blown but just something that would come up often. I gave him jade

screen -- after taking it for only 3 days and a lower dose longer he didn't

catch a cold or flue for the rest of the year. Michael Tierra

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Mike Liaw

Monday, February 18, 2008 11:37 AM

 

Re: Re: What is MSU???

 

 

 

Alon,

 

Many times.

 

Experts miss it because they have limited time and opportunities to observe

the patients closely in a typical hospital setting. When they do, the

results are much better. I have only a passing grade for SHL 101 but my

family members and patients do recover from cold much visibly quicker than

otherwise because I examine and observe them closely. (I myself would catch

cold many times a year before learning CM, but I indeed have had only one

full course cold, taking ~3 weeks to recover when I was in the first year of

CM in 1999. It's not that I am balanced all the time, hardly so, in fact.

However, I do have the advantage of practicing QiGong besides early

detection of cold and nail it overnight for myself.)

 

Mike L.

 

Alon Marcus <alonmarcus (AT) wans (DOT) <alonmarcus%40wans.net> net> wrote:

Mike

with all due respect, if truthful, how many time have you see SHL experts

fail in treating a cold, and what i mean by that is the cold lasted just as

long as most other people affected by it. I studied with a SHL expert in

china and seen this just as often as what could be considered a success by

someone willing to be critical in evaluating the results

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Mike

The typical cold last 3-7 days. I have seen many people that did not get any

treatment at all and completely over a cold in 3 days. I have has countless

patients get a cold but refuse any treatment for it because they get over it in

just a few days, and they do. By the time i see them next they are not sick.

Evaluating the treatment of colds is not very simple one needs to be able to

compare to large numbers of untreated patients

alon

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

I do not disagree some cold last for only a few days, and I agree one needs to

have a valid comparison.

 

In my practice, I pay pretty close attention to each patient's conditions and

past record.

Those who used to recover from cold (without treatment) do indeed recover on

their own, and I do not intervene. So I am talking about only those who have

history (my record) of taking longer than a week to recover. (Some would take 2

to 3 weeks!) And I allow walk-in of existing patients for cold only, after

some education. I do this as part of my learning process, because I want to be

able to show dramatic difference for their money's worth.

With this, if they are reporting dramatic difference overnight, or frequency

of occurrence reduces dramatically we know it's a difference we are making.

 

Mike L.

 

 

Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote:

Mike

The typical cold last 3-7 days. I have seen many people that did not get any

treatment at all and completely over a cold in 3 days. I have has countless

patients get a cold but refuse any treatment for it because they get over it in

just a few days, and they do. By the time i see them next they are not sick.

Evaluating the treatment of colds is not very simple one needs to be able to

compare to large numbers of untreated patients

alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

Alon et al,

 

 

 

I completely agree with Mike here! I also have a practice where I see lots

of colds. My patient's are very aware of the quick results. This is compared

to their years of history, knowing how long colds and flus last. It is not

uncommon to give a prescription and the patient is almost 100% within hours.

(Or has a dramatic turn for the better when they are going downhill fast).

When you see these situations happen over and over it is hard to deny. (Not

saying I always nail it) But I have also seen, as my prescribing gets

better, the more people report such experiences.

 

 

 

I have no doubt that CM has a good handle on ganmao. Of course one cannot

just merely choose between wind-cold or wind-heat. I use so many approaches

and variations for ganmao, and I follow and track these conditions like a

hawk. I do not wait until the next time I see them. I literally expect a

major change within usually 24 hours, if not then I probably prescribed

incorrectly and then I change things.

 

 

 

Of course someone who has been very sick for an extended period (with

ganmao) also can yield results. You may not be able to knock it out of the

box with one swoop, however with the right prescription there can be a

dramatic change (where previously nothing helped) and they then can recover

fairly quickly. This again is obvious to everyone. Again I am far from a

master, and many times spend a week or two battling someone's intense flu.

However I am quite clear about these above points. Therefore I can

confidently say that any lack of results that one may see is not a CM

deficiency.

 

 

 

BTW- I also find Bulk herbs essential in getting the bomber results. I have

had mixed results when I have tried granulars. Other's experience?

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Mike Liaw

Tuesday, February 19, 2008 1:04 PM

 

Re: Re: What is MSU???

 

 

 

Alon,

 

I do not disagree some cold last for only a few days, and I agree one needs

to have a valid comparison.

 

In my practice, I pay pretty close attention to each patient's conditions

and past record.

Those who used to recover from cold (without treatment) do indeed recover on

their own, and I do not intervene. So I am talking about only those who have

history (my record) of taking longer than a week to recover. (Some would

take 2 to 3 weeks!) And I allow walk-in of existing patients for cold only,

after some education. I do this as part of my learning process, because I

want to be able to show dramatic difference for their money's worth.

With this, if they are reporting dramatic difference overnight, or frequency

of occurrence reduces dramatically we know it's a difference we are making.

 

Mike L.

 

 

Alon Marcus <alonmarcus (AT) wans (DOT) <alonmarcus%40wans.net> net> wrote:

Mike

The typical cold last 3-7 days. I have seen many people that did not get any

treatment at all and completely over a cold in 3 days. I have has countless

patients get a cold but refuse any treatment for it because they get over it

in just a few days, and they do. By the time i see them next they are not

sick. Evaluating the treatment of colds is not very simple one needs to be

able to compare to large numbers of untreated patients

alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

Jason,

 

I have found that large dosages of a few different patents or granules

will work fine in early stages of ganmao, but decoctions are necessary

if the cold or flu already has a foothold, or if the response to

patents or granules is too slow. For severe acute conditions, nothing

does it as fast as a decoction!

 

- Bill

 

 

> I completely agree with Mike here! I also have a practice where I

see lots

> of colds. My patient's are very aware of the quick results. This is

compared

> to their years of history, knowing how long colds and flus last. It

is not

> uncommon to give a prescription and the patient is almost 100%

within hours.

> (Or has a dramatic turn for the better when they are going downhill

fast).

> When you see these situations happen over and over it is hard to

deny. (Not

> saying I always nail it) But I have also seen, as my prescribing gets

> better, the more people report such experiences.

>

>

>

> I have no doubt that CM has a good handle on ganmao. Of course one

cannot

> just merely choose between wind-cold or wind-heat. I use so many

approaches

> and variations for ganmao, and I follow and track these conditions

like a

> hawk. I do not wait until the next time I see them. I literally expect a

> major change within usually 24 hours, if not then I probably prescribed

> incorrectly and then I change things.

>

>

>

> Of course someone who has been very sick for an extended period (with

> ganmao) also can yield results. You may not be able to knock it out

of the

> box with one swoop, however with the right prescription there can be a

> dramatic change (where previously nothing helped) and they then can

recover

> fairly quickly. This again is obvious to everyone. Again I am far from a

> master, and many times spend a week or two battling someone's

intense flu.

> However I am quite clear about these above points. Therefore I can

> confidently say that any lack of results that one may see is not a CM

> deficiency.

>

>

>

> BTW- I also find Bulk herbs essential in getting the bomber results.

I have

> had mixed results when I have tried granulars. Other's experience?

>

>

>

> -

>

[Guest guest]

I've seen and experienced that to at times but -- as Bill Shoenbart said,

the condition changes so quickly its not easy to keep on top of it and then

when one is trying to treat oneself, forget it -- its hard to think 'cure'

with a sick head. MT

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of

Tuesday, February 19, 2008 4:28 PM

 

RE: Re: What is MSU???

 

 

 

Alon et al,

 

I completely agree with Mike here! I also have a practice where I see lots

of colds. My patient's are very aware of the quick results. This is compared

to their years of history, knowing how long colds and flus last. It is not

uncommon to give a prescription and the patient is almost 100% within hours.

(Or has a dramatic turn for the better when they are going downhill fast).

When you see these situations happen over and over it is hard to deny. (Not

saying I always nail it) But I have also seen, as my prescribing gets

better, the more people report such experiences.

 

I have no doubt that CM has a good handle on ganmao. Of course one cannot

just merely choose between wind-cold or wind-heat. I use so many approaches

and variations for ganmao, and I follow and track these conditions like a

hawk. I do not wait until the next time I see them. I literally expect a

major change within usually 24 hours, if not then I probably prescribed

incorrectly and then I change things.

 

Of course someone who has been very sick for an extended period (with

ganmao) also can yield results. You may not be able to knock it out of the

box with one swoop, however with the right prescription there can be a

dramatic change (where previously nothing helped) and they then can recover

fairly quickly. This again is obvious to everyone. Again I am far from a

master, and many times spend a week or two battling someone's intense flu.

However I am quite clear about these above points. Therefore I can

confidently say that any lack of results that one may see is not a CM

deficiency.

 

BTW- I also find Bulk herbs essential in getting the bomber results. I have

had mixed results when I have tried granulars. Other's experience?

 

-

 

_____

[Guest guest]

>

>

> <%40>

>

[ <%40>\

]

> On Behalf Of

>

 

 

> I literally expect a

> major change within usually 24 hours, if not then I probably prescribed

> incorrectly and then I change things.

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jason: you mentioned that you prefer the raw herbs for ganmao. How many

packages do you generally send your patient away with? Just one?

 

Also, I'd buy a clinical guide to ganmao, just in case you're in the mood to

publish.

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.