Shang Han & Wen Bing

[Guest guest]

Hopefully can do with nice & succinctly without a lot of fuss that's

around lately.

 

When I started practice & while in school, back in Seattle until

around 1997-2003 - a vast majority of gan mao patients were various

Wen Bing kinds of disorders. Once in a very rare while I might see an

odd SHL type patient. I moved to Springfield, MO in 2003 and after a

while I've noticed more and more recently that there has been a

definite shift to Shang Han style disorders. I almost can't really

believe it when I see it.

 

Now - I don't know what you other clinicians are finding out there. I

wonder if this shift is just a change in patient population, change in

climate, or a shift of those guest-host Qi thingies. I've never lived

in a place where I can go to lunch in 75' weather and then it can be

snowing when I get off of work. This has happened several times this

year and it's getting old fast.

 

What are your experiences?

Geoff

[Guest guest]

Geoff,

Oddly, I've noticed the same thing. A lot more wind/strike, cold

damage cases, less wen bing. My herbal prescribing has shifted in a

more SHL direction, I am using less Wen Bing prescriptions, even

though I live in San Diego, a relatively warmer climate.

One factor I think is that the upswing in use of antibiotics for

respiratory disorders is weakening the yang qi of my patient

population here.

I tend to use less yin qiao san these days, and more scripts such

as jing fang bai du san, while not a SHL script, uses mainly warm dry

acrid medicinals to expel evils.

 

 

On Feb 18, 2008, at 10:47 PM, G Hudson wrote:

 

> Hopefully can do with nice & succinctly without a lot of fuss that's

> around lately.

>

> When I started practice & while in school, back in Seattle until

> around 1997-2003 - a vast majority of gan mao patients were various

> Wen Bing kinds of disorders. Once in a very rare while I might see an

> odd SHL type patient. I moved to Springfield, MO in 2003 and after a

> while I've noticed more and more recently that there has been a

> definite shift to Shang Han style disorders. I almost can't really

> believe it when I see it.

>

> Now - I don't know what you other clinicians are finding out there. I

> wonder if this shift is just a change in patient population, change in

> climate, or a shift of those guest-host Qi thingies. I've never lived

> in a place where I can go to lunch in 75' weather and then it can be

> snowing when I get off of work. This has happened several times this

> year and it's getting old fast.

>

> What are your experiences?

> Geoff

>

>

>

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thanks for that Geof and Zev. Zev,, I have to confess I've never I've never

used Jing feng bai du san -- I'll certainly consider it in future cases.

 

Since the difference between SHL and Wen Bing seems to me to be primarily

humoural (SHL) and more anti-pathogenic (Wen bing) the choice does become

clearer. I've taken a few simple clues from SHL that I think seem useful.

Generally speaking Tai yang stage is early unless one accounts for

underlying deficiency as an important component of treatment. So a lot of

colds and flus that last beyond 2 or 3 days seem to go to xiao yang stages

with chai hu gui zhi tang being very useful because it treats the mixed cold

and hot syndrome, deficient and excess. For some reason during this last

cold I was so convinced that it was wind cold, and was getting measured

results with treating it that way, I never tried chai hu gui zhi tang.

 

I must say that about 85 to 09% of the time the lingering cough and

recurring pattern that happens with so many of these conditions yields to

xiao chu hu tang with minor variations for each patient. I was surprised to

find that the most palliative remedy for cough was lo han guo tea.

 

I wonder what it is about lo han guo, in terms of its properties and nature

as well as biochemistry that makes it so useful. Is it ever used in

formulas?

 

We don't say much about it but those inexpensive little sugar cubes of lo

han guo were very effective palliative treatment for children, many of my

patients and myself while xiao chai hu kicked in at a deeper level.

 

Michael Tierra

www.planetherbs.com

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of

Tuesday, February 19, 2008 7:34 AM

 

Re: Shang Han & Wen Bing

 

 

 

Geoff,

Oddly, I've noticed the same thing. A lot more wind/strike, cold

damage cases, less wen bing. My herbal prescribing has shifted in a

more SHL direction, I am using less Wen Bing prescriptions, even

though I live in San Diego, a relatively warmer climate.

One factor I think is that the upswing in use of antibiotics for

respiratory disorders is weakening the yang qi of my patient

population here.

I tend to use less yin qiao san these days, and more scripts such

as jing fang bai du san, while not a SHL script, uses mainly warm dry

acrid medicinals to expel evils.

 

 

On Feb 18, 2008, at 10:47 PM, G Hudson wrote:

 

> Hopefully can do with nice & succinctly without a lot of fuss that's

> around lately.

>

> When I started practice & while in school, back in Seattle until

> around 1997-2003 - a vast majority of gan mao patients were various

> Wen Bing kinds of disorders. Once in a very rare while I might see an

> odd SHL type patient. I moved to Springfield, MO in 2003 and after a

> while I've noticed more and more recently that there has been a

> definite shift to Shang Han style disorders. I almost can't really

> believe it when I see it.

>

> Now - I don't know what you other clinicians are finding out there. I

> wonder if this shift is just a change in patient population, change in

> climate, or a shift of those guest-host Qi thingies. I've never lived

> in a place where I can go to lunch in 75' weather and then it can be

> snowing when I get off of work. This has happened several times this

> year and it's getting old fast.

>

> What are your experiences?

> Geoff

>

>

>

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

[Guest guest]

Plum Flower carries Jing Fang Bai Du Wan. It is called Release the

Exterior Teapills. I have found it to be really helpful in treating

the current flu, since there are lots of body aches. I combine it with

other formulas, depending on the pattern.

 

In my experience, the most important thing in treating wind cold, wind

heat, etc., is constant follow-up. Things may start as wind cold, but

very quickly turn to heat. The wind symptoms can disappear, and then

you have heat phlegm to deal with, etc. I call patients every day when

I am treating a serious case. I may have to change their prescription

a few times until they are better.

 

Shang Han Lun is great and very relevant, but sometimes a " true

believer " tends to go overboard with the Fu Zi, Ma Huang, and Xi Xin.

When they are indicated, they can work miracles. When prescribed

indiscriminately, they can cause havoc.

 

- Bill Schoenbart

 

 

 

 

>

> Thanks for that Geof and Zev. Zev,, I have to confess I've never

I've never

> used Jing feng bai du san -- I'll certainly consider it in future

cases.

>

> Since the difference between SHL and Wen Bing seems to me to be

primarily

> humoural (SHL) and more anti-pathogenic (Wen bing) the choice does

become

> clearer. I've taken a few simple clues from SHL that I think seem

useful.

> Generally speaking Tai yang stage is early unless one accounts for

> underlying deficiency as an important component of treatment. So a

lot of

> colds and flus that last beyond 2 or 3 days seem to go to xiao yang

stages

> with chai hu gui zhi tang being very useful because it treats the

mixed cold

> and hot syndrome, deficient and excess. For some reason during this last

> cold I was so convinced that it was wind cold, and was getting measured

> results with treating it that way, I never tried chai hu gui zhi tang.

>

>

[Guest guest]

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Michael Tierra

I was surprised to

find that the most palliative remedy for cough was lo han guo tea.

 

I wonder what it is about lo han guo, in terms of its properties and nature

as well as biochemistry that makes it so useful. Is it ever used in

formulas?

 

 

 

It is in½ðɤ×Óºí±¦ (jin sang zi hou bao) (Golden voice and throat treasure)

 

With bo he and jin yin hua. It is said to disperse wind, clear heat, resolve

toxin, disperse swelling and facilitate flow in the throat.

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

That's interesting for sure! That would be one for the column of a

more global shift in the pathogens, rather than local. Yin Qiao long

was a great standby - worked for almost everyone with a cold, and a

few years back it seemed like 98% of people had Wen Bing. I believe

it was Todd a long time ago that turned me on to Jing Fang Bai Du San,

and it was what I used for WC attacks when Yin Qiao wasn't

appropriate. It will be interesting to see when it shifts back.

Don't those Daoist calendars have predictions on these shifts?

 

My daughter, then 7 month pregnant wife, and then myself, contracted

this current flu - and it stunk! I wasn't sure what to use for my

wife since most formulas I could think of were contraindicated for

pregnancy. So I made her ginger tea. I took big doses of JFBDS -

about 20-30 at a time, several times a day, and it would just get me

slightly warm, and barely a sweat. My wife gave me some tylenol, and

just one extra-strength would give me a massive sweat and some relief

until it wore off. After a couple of days I got fed up and through

the fog thought - hmm - how about Gui Zhi Tang? Took it, hit the gym,

myalgia and all, and did my best to run and walk the track, and a

couple of forms, and then it seemed to turn the tide very quickly.

Still dealing with crud, but having once thought it was a bit of a

waste to spend two whole quarters studying the SHL - it now seems to

make clear sense of when to use it. Now I truly understand 'aversion

to cold / wind' (going outside for even a moment would cause strong

shanking) and 'shaking chills' and 'not improving after sweating'

(ying wei disharmony). I just didn't see those symptoms in the past

with WH disorders.

 

Cheers

Geoff

 

,

<zrosenbe wrote:

>

> Geoff,

> Oddly, I've noticed the same thing. A lot more wind/strike, cold

> damage cases, less wen bing.