Shang Han & Wen Bing - lo han guo and sticky herbs

[Guest guest]

Michael,

 

When I took lo han guo during an acute exterior invasion of wind-heat

(because of dry throat and cough), the phlegm accumulated in my lungs

and was difficult to expectorate.

wind-heat turning into phlegm-heat lodged in the lungs...

 

I think that this is what my Shang han lun teacher meant when she said,

" lo han guo can hold pathogens in " if you take it during an acute external

attack.

 

Since it is a moistening substance that can be cloying,

it can " stick " the pathogen to the lungs, instead of expel it...

 

That's why it is used for chronic lung/throat dryness cough traditionally,

unlike yu zhu which moistens the lungs and can be used during an exterior

attack:

pg 362 Bensky, " ...because the herb is neither cloying nor tends to retain

pathogenic influences, it is used in treating patients with a yin-deficient

constitution in cases of externally-contracted wind-heat. "

 

Other herbs that are sticky and are contraindicated for ext wind are:

e jiao (Bensky) and mu gua (Bensky) and shu di (according to some views).

 

In my experience, oranges/ orange juice does the same thing...

creates phlegm and " sticks " by way of phlegm-formation.

 

In fact, sugar in general, which is damp/phlegm forming is anathema to

expelling pathogens

during a wind invasion.

 

Has this been your experience too?

 

An herbal teacher of mine says , " to kill the fish, you need to dry out the

pond. "

 

Interesting are the herbs that traditionally can nourish yin and be used

during an external wind attack...

ge gen, yu zhu, shi hu, tian hua fen, gan cao, da zao, ren shen,

shao yao, zhi mu, sheng di, bei mu, dan dou chi, lu gen,

 

What about honey?

In what circumstances ...

K.

 

 

 

 

On Tue, Feb 19, 2008 at 10:36 PM, Michael Tierra <mtierra

wrote:

 

> not sure what exactly that means -- holding in pathogens -- how can you

> tell

> that has happened? MT

>

> _____

>

> <%40>

>

[ <%40>\

]

> On Behalf Of

> Tuesday, February 19, 2008 11:00 AM

> <%40>

> Re: Shang Han & Wen Bing - lo han guo

>

>

> Michael,

>

> I've used a lot of lo han guo,

>

> It is great for dry cough, dry throat, lung dryness and helping to sweeten

> decoctions.

>

> However, a teacher of mine told me that it can hold pathogens inside

> and should never be used alone during an acute attack of external

> pathogens.

> From my experience, this holds true.

>

> Just my 2 cents.

>

> K.

>

> On Feb 19, 2008 8:25 AM, Michael Tierra <mtierra@planetherbs

> <mtierra%40planetherbs.com> .com> wrote:

>

> > Thanks for that Geof and Zev. Zev,, I have to confess I've never I've

> > never

> > used Jing feng bai du san -- I'll certainly consider it in future cases.

> >

> > Since the difference between SHL and Wen Bing seems to me to be

> primarily

> > humoural (SHL) and more anti-pathogenic (Wen bing) the choice does

> become

> > clearer. I've taken a few simple clues from SHL that I think seem

> useful.

> > Generally speaking Tai yang stage is early unless one accounts for

> > underlying deficiency as an important component of treatment. So a lot

> of

> > colds and flus that last beyond 2 or 3 days seem to go to xiao yang

> stages

> > with chai hu gui zhi tang being very useful because it treats the mixed

> > cold

> > and hot syndrome, deficient and excess. For some reason during this last

> > cold I was so convinced that it was wind cold, and was getting measured

> > results with treating it that way, I never tried chai hu gui zhi tang.

> >

> > I must say that about 85 to 09% of the time the lingering cough and

> > recurring pattern that happens with so many of these conditions yields

> to

> > xiao chu hu tang with minor variations for each patient. I was surprised

> > to

> > find that the most palliative remedy for cough was lo han guo tea.

> >

> > I wonder what it is about lo han guo, in terms of its properties and

> > nature

> > as well as biochemistry that makes it so useful. Is it ever used in

> > formulas?

> >

> > We don't say much about it but those inexpensive little sugar cubes of

> lo

> > han guo were very effective palliative treatment for children, many of

> my

> > patients and myself while xiao chai hu kicked in at a deeper level.

> >

> > Michael Tierra

> > www.planetherbs.com

> >

> > _____

>

> _____

>

> << ella for Spam Control >> has removed 5394 Spam messages and set aside

> 3289 Newsletters for me

> You can use it too - and it's FREE! www.ellaforspam.com

>

>

[Guest guest]

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of

 

 

In fact, sugar in general, which is damp/phlegm forming is anathema to

expelling pathogens

during a wind invasion.

 

 

 

There is research that says that if you consume 50+ grams of sugar that it

strongly suppresses your immune system in the short term.

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I don't know if there are any yin nourishes that I haven't seen in the

treatment of ganmao. I think it all depends on the others medicinals that

they are combined with (as well as the patient's presentation). For example,

notice the luo han guo formula I posted. It is paired with bo he and jin yin

hua. This prevents the possible stickiness from trapping in the pathogen by

venting the wind-heat. This is where pairing of herbs is important.

 

 

 

Also some people say shi hu retains pathogens, many others say that it

specifically does not. I think any of these class of medicinals can be used

as long as there is the appropriate number of venters (etc) in the

prescription.

 

 

 

I think it all comes down to the basic principle, if there is a pathogen on

the exterior, one must vent it out.

 

 

 

Other's thoughts?

 

 

 

-

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of

 

 

Interesting are the herbs that traditionally can nourish yin and be used

during an external wind attack...

ge gen, yu zhu, shi hu, tian hua fen, gan cao, da zao, ren shen,

shao yao, zhi mu, sheng di, bei mu, dan dou chi, lu gen,

 

What about honey?

In what circumstances ...

K.

 

On Tue, Feb 19, 2008 at 10:36 PM, Michael Tierra <mtierra@planetherbs

<mtierra%40planetherbs.com> .com>

wrote:

 

> not sure what exactly that means -- holding in pathogens -- how can you

> tell

> that has happened? MT

>

> _____

>

> @ <%40>

<%40>

> [@ <%40>

<%40>]

> On Behalf Of

> Tuesday, February 19, 2008 11:00 AM

> @ <%40>

<%40>

> Re: Shang Han & Wen Bing - lo han guo

>

>

> Michael,

>

> I've used a lot of lo han guo,

>

> It is great for dry cough, dry throat, lung dryness and helping to sweeten

> decoctions.

>

> However, a teacher of mine told me that it can hold pathogens inside

> and should never be used alone during an acute attack of external

> pathogens.

> From my experience, this holds true.

>

> Just my 2 cents.

>

> K.

>

> On Feb 19, 2008 8:25 AM, Michael Tierra <mtierra@planetherbs

> <mtierra%40planetherbs.com> .com> wrote:

>

> > Thanks for that Geof and Zev. Zev,, I have to confess I've never I've

> > never

> > used Jing feng bai du san -- I'll certainly consider it in future cases.

> >

> > Since the difference between SHL and Wen Bing seems to me to be

> primarily

> > humoural (SHL) and more anti-pathogenic (Wen bing) the choice does

> become

> > clearer. I've taken a few simple clues from SHL that I think seem

> useful.

> > Generally speaking Tai yang stage is early unless one accounts for

> > underlying deficiency as an important component of treatment. So a lot

> of

> > colds and flus that last beyond 2 or 3 days seem to go to xiao yang

> stages

> > with chai hu gui zhi tang being very useful because it treats the mixed

> > cold

> > and hot syndrome, deficient and excess. For some reason during this last

> > cold I was so convinced that it was wind cold, and was getting measured

> > results with treating it that way, I never tried chai hu gui zhi tang.

> >

> > I must say that about 85 to 09% of the time the lingering cough and

> > recurring pattern that happens with so many of these conditions yields

> to

> > xiao chu hu tang with minor variations for each patient. I was surprised

> > to

> > find that the most palliative remedy for cough was lo han guo tea.

> >

> > I wonder what it is about lo han guo, in terms of its properties and

> > nature

> > as well as biochemistry that makes it so useful. Is it ever used in

> > formulas?

> >

> > We don't say much about it but those inexpensive little sugar cubes of

> lo

> > han guo were very effective palliative treatment for children, many of

> my

> > patients and myself while xiao chai hu kicked in at a deeper level.

> >

> > Michael Tierra

> > www.planetherbs.com

> >

> > _____

>

> _____

>

> << ella for Spam Control >> has removed 5394 Spam messages and set aside

> 3289 Newsletters for me

> You can use it too - and it's FREE! www.ellaforspam.com

>

>

[Guest guest]

Throw this in for consideration. There's a principle of formulation which

for lack of a better phrase is to " bait the pathogenic influence. " This

occurs when one takes anthelmintic herbs with sugar, it occurs when one

takes a tea of scorpions, centipedes and silkworm larva with a boiled egg,

it occurs in a popular Ayurvedic formula called Sito Paladi churna that is

used for treating colds and flus. The principle is to reduce the " kapha "

humor (mucus) by the use of spicy warm and anti inflammatory herbs. This is

presented and taken in a base of sugar which is pro-kapha or mucus. The

principle is to collect and bait the mucus and then neutralize its effects

along with the mucus with the spicy warm herbs.

 

So, not to contradict the interesting reminder that Lo Han Guo 'sugar cubes "

may not be appropriate for the active phase of a cold, this does point out

that there is a formulation principle that uses sugar to counteract mucus.

Again it is the formulation. Sito Paladi serves a similar purpose in my mind

as CM Cinnamon twig tea combinations which is to warm and vent the surface.

Similarly in Western herbal medicine there is a very famous and highly

respected formulation called composition powder that was literally made in

100 lb lots by 20th century herb doctors, who would use it as a first

defense for most acute ailments especially upper respiratory.

 

You can check out my synopsis on treating colds at

http://www.planetherbs.com/articles/colds.html#xtocid41225

 

Michael Tierra

www.planetherbs.com

 

PS -- while sugar is considered mucus forming or pro-kapha in Ayurveda,

honey is specifically used to counteract or treat kapha diseases. In fact it

is used as a carrier in all formulas intended for treating phlegm dampness.

After studying both extensively, I think that CM could easily benefit by

incorporating some of the more ancient formulation methods of Ayurveda. The

word in India is that both CM and Ayurvedic medicines are effective but

'Ayurvedic medicines taste better " .

 

The reason is because they don't rely on teas for everything, as a matter of

fact they use very little tea. They take powders, pastes and pills. combined

with 'carriers " typically honey for the mucus humor, oil for the nervous

system or vata humour, and ghee for the the fire or pitta humor. These three

'anupans' or carriers have an affinity for the humours and associated organs

and so herbs taken with them as fine powders are carried to the site of the

imbalance.

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of

Thursday, February 21, 2008 7:19 AM

 

RE: Shang Han & Wen Bing - lo han guo and sticky herbs

 

 

 

 

 

I don't know if there are any yin nourishes that I haven't seen in the

treatment of ganmao. I think it all depends on the others medicinals that

they are combined with (as well as the patient's presentation). For example,

notice the luo han guo formula I posted. It is paired with bo he and jin yin

hua. This prevents the possible stickiness from trapping in the pathogen by

venting the wind-heat. This is where pairing of herbs is important.

 

Also some people say shi hu retains pathogens, many others say that it

specifically does not. I think any of these class of medicinals can be used

as long as there is the appropriate number of venters (etc) in the

prescription.

 

I think it all comes down to the basic principle, if there is a pathogen on

the exterior, one must vent it out.

 

Other's thoughts?

 

-

 

_____

[Guest guest]

This is why the raws herbs are so much better in the early stages...

the aromatic actions are much stronger than powders or pills. You need

that physical reaction, not just the chemical actions on the toxins.

Doug

>

>

> I think it all comes down to the basic principle, if there is a

pathogen on

> the exterior, one must vent it out.

>

>

>

> Other's thoughts?

>

>

>

> -

>

> _____

>

[Guest guest]

Speaking of luo han guo: check this out- the latest sweetener

 

https://shop.bodyecology.com/prodinfo.asp?number=BE021

 

 

Cara O. Frank, R.OM, Dipl Ac & Ch.H.

Six Fishes Healing Arts &

President China Herb Company of the Chinese Herb Program

Tai Sophia Institute of the Healing Arts

215-772-0770

 

 

 

 

Michael Tierra <mtierra

 

Thu, 21 Feb 2008 08:51:43 -0800

 

RE: Shang Han & Wen Bing - lo han guo and sticky herbs

 

 

 

 

 

Throw this in for consideration. There's a principle of formulation which

for lack of a better phrase is to " bait the pathogenic influence. " This

occurs when one takes anthelmintic herbs with sugar, it occurs when one

takes a tea of scorpions, centipedes and silkworm larva with a boiled egg,

it occurs in a popular Ayurvedic formula called Sito Paladi churna that is

used for treating colds and flus. The principle is to reduce the " kapha "

humor (mucus) by the use of spicy warm and anti inflammatory herbs. This is

presented and taken in a base of sugar which is pro-kapha or mucus. The

principle is to collect and bait the mucus and then neutralize its effects

along with the mucus with the spicy warm herbs.

 

So, not to contradict the interesting reminder that Lo Han Guo 'sugar cubes "

may not be appropriate for the active phase of a cold, this does point out

that there is a formulation principle that uses sugar to counteract mucus.

Again it is the formulation. Sito Paladi serves a similar purpose in my mind

as CM Cinnamon twig tea combinations which is to warm and vent the surface.

Similarly in Western herbal medicine there is a very famous and highly

respected formulation called composition powder that was literally made in

100 lb lots by 20th century herb doctors, who would use it as a first

defense for most acute ailments especially upper respiratory.

 

You can check out my synopsis on treating colds at

http://www.planetherbs.com/articles/colds.html#xtocid41225

 

Michael Tierra

www.planetherbs.com

 

PS -- while sugar is considered mucus forming or pro-kapha in Ayurveda,

honey is specifically used to counteract or treat kapha diseases. In fact it

is used as a carrier in all formulas intended for treating phlegm dampness.

After studying both extensively, I think that CM could easily benefit by

incorporating some of the more ancient formulation methods of Ayurveda. The

word in India is that both CM and Ayurvedic medicines are effective but

'Ayurvedic medicines taste better " .

 

The reason is because they don't rely on teas for everything, as a matter of

fact they use very little tea. They take powders, pastes and pills. combined

with 'carriers " typically honey for the mucus humor, oil for the nervous

system or vata humour, and ghee for the the fire or pitta humor. These three

'anupans' or carriers have an affinity for the humours and associated organs

and so herbs taken with them as fine powders are carried to the site of the

imbalance.

 

_____

 

 

<%40>

[

<%40> ] On Behalf Of

Thursday, February 21, 2008 7:19 AM

 

<%40>

RE: Shang Han & Wen Bing - lo han guo and sticky herbs

 

I don't know if there are any yin nourishes that I haven't seen in the

treatment of ganmao. I think it all depends on the others medicinals that

they are combined with (as well as the patient's presentation). For example,

notice the luo han guo formula I posted. It is paired with bo he and jin yin

hua. This prevents the possible stickiness from trapping in the pathogen by

venting the wind-heat. This is where pairing of herbs is important.

 

Also some people say shi hu retains pathogens, many others say that it

specifically does not. I think any of these class of medicinals can be used

as long as there is the appropriate number of venters (etc) in the

prescription.

 

I think it all comes down to the basic principle, if there is a pathogen on

the exterior, one must vent it out.

 

Other's thoughts?

 

-

 

_____

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Michael,

 

 

 

This is an interesting idea. However I am curious if the sugar has anything

to do with getting rid of the cold by " bait[ing] the pathogenic influence. " ?

I would guess it is merely to mask the flavor of the scorpions, centipedes

and silkworm larva. More important to me than strange remedies are, do they

work? Have you had experience with this remedy working, and if so what kind

of CM ganmao patterns?

 

 

 

-Jason

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Michael Tierra

Thursday, February 21, 2008 9:52 AM

 

RE: Shang Han & Wen Bing - lo han guo and sticky herbs

 

 

 

Throw this in for consideration. There's a principle of formulation which

for lack of a better phrase is to " bait the pathogenic influence. " This

occurs when one takes anthelmintic herbs with sugar, it occurs when one

takes a tea of scorpions, centipedes and silkworm larva with a boiled egg,

it occurs in a popular Ayurvedic formula called Sito Paladi churna that is

used for treating colds and flus. The principle is to reduce the " kapha "

humor (mucus) by the use of spicy warm and anti inflammatory herbs. This is

presented and taken in a base of sugar which is pro-kapha or mucus. The

principle is to collect and bait the mucus and then neutralize its effects

along with the mucus with the spicy warm herbs.

 

So, not to contradict the interesting reminder that Lo Han Guo 'sugar cubes "

may not be appropriate for the active phase of a cold, this does point out

that there is a formulation principle that uses sugar to counteract mucus.

Again it is the formulation. Sito Paladi serves a similar purpose in my mind

as CM Cinnamon twig tea combinations which is to warm and vent the surface.

Similarly in Western herbal medicine there is a very famous and highly

respected formulation called composition powder that was literally made in

100 lb lots by 20th century herb doctors, who would use it as a first

defense for most acute ailments especially upper respiratory.

 

You can check out my synopsis on treating colds at

http://www.planethe

<http://www.planetherbs.com/articles/colds.html#xtocid41225>

rbs.com/articles/colds.html#xtocid41225

 

Michael Tierra

www.planetherbs.com

 

PS -- while sugar is considered mucus forming or pro-kapha in Ayurveda,

honey is specifically used to counteract or treat kapha diseases. In fact it

is used as a carrier in all formulas intended for treating phlegm dampness.

After studying both extensively, I think that CM could easily benefit by

incorporating some of the more ancient formulation methods of Ayurveda. The

word in India is that both CM and Ayurvedic medicines are effective but

'Ayurvedic medicines taste better " .

 

The reason is because they don't rely on teas for everything, as a matter of

fact they use very little tea. They take powders, pastes and pills. combined

with 'carriers " typically honey for the mucus humor, oil for the nervous

system or vata humour, and ghee for the the fire or pitta humor. These three

'anupans' or carriers have an affinity for the humours and associated organs

and so herbs taken with them as fine powders are carried to the site of the

imbalance.

 

_____

 

@ <%40>

 

[@ <%40>

] On Behalf Of

Thursday, February 21, 2008 7:19 AM

@ <%40>

 

RE: Shang Han & Wen Bing - lo han guo and sticky herbs

 

I don't know if there are any yin nourishes that I haven't seen in the

treatment of ganmao. I think it all depends on the others medicinals that

they are combined with (as well as the patient's presentation). For example,

notice the luo han guo formula I posted. It is paired with bo he and jin yin

hua. This prevents the possible stickiness from trapping in the pathogen by

venting the wind-heat. This is where pairing of herbs is important.

 

Also some people say shi hu retains pathogens, many others say that it

specifically does not. I think any of these class of medicinals can be used

as long as there is the appropriate number of venters (etc) in the

prescription.

 

I think it all comes down to the basic principle, if there is a pathogen on

the exterior, one must vent it out.

 

Other's thoughts?

 

-

 

_____

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

To my knowledge, and I stand to be corrected in this, Sito Paladi is broadly

used for all colds and flus in Ayurveda. Personally I find it to be very

palliative for external wind cold conditions. I don't think it would do much

for wind heat but having said that there is the principle of strong yang

overcoming weaker yang -- thus there are whole cultures in Africa, central

and south America that would take a stiff dose of cayenne pepper to treat

sore throats and flus. I used to do that and CM notwithstanding it does work

about as often as anything does to relieve colds and flus.

 

I know what you mean about getting just the right combination and literally

erasing the cold and flu. I love when that happens and I must say, i have

better luck achieving it with other patients than on myself. I can't tell

you the number of hours I've spent studying cold and flu remedies when I or

someone in my family had one. Its a little like trying to manufacture

amunition while in the midst of a fierce battle.

 

The sugar in sito paladi is a cooling element in Ayurvedic theory so in a

sense it balances the spicy herb called pippli (its a chinese black long

pepper).

 

I didn't mean that sugar was added to the insects. It isn't. Egg is used

based on the theory that cancer feeds and relies on the finest quality

protein before other cells of the body can assimilate it.

 

Michael

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of

Thursday, February 21, 2008 10:21 AM

 

RE: Shang Han & Wen Bing - lo han guo and sticky herbs

 

 

 

Michael,

 

This is an interesting idea. However I am curious if the sugar has anything

to do with getting rid of the cold by " bait[ing] the pathogenic influence. " ?

I would guess it is merely to mask the flavor of the scorpions, centipedes

and silkworm larva. More important to me than strange remedies are, do they

work? Have you had experience with this remedy working, and if so what kind

of CM ganmao patterns?

 

-Jason

 

_____

 

@ <%40>

 

[@ <%40>

] On Behalf Of Michael Tierra

Thursday, February 21, 2008 9:52 AM

@ <%40>

 

RE: Shang Han & Wen Bing - lo han guo and sticky herbs

 

Throw this in for consideration. There's a principle of formulation which

for lack of a better phrase is to " bait the pathogenic influence. " This

occurs when one takes anthelmintic herbs with sugar, it occurs when one

takes a tea of scorpions, centipedes and silkworm larva with a boiled egg,

it occurs in a popular Ayurvedic formula called Sito Paladi churna that is

used for treating colds and flus. The principle is to reduce the " kapha "

humor (mucus) by the use of spicy warm and anti inflammatory herbs. This is

presented and taken in a base of sugar which is pro-kapha or mucus. The

principle is to collect and bait the mucus and then neutralize its effects

along with the mucus with the spicy warm herbs.

 

So, not to contradict the interesting reminder that Lo Han Guo 'sugar cubes "

may not be appropriate for the active phase of a cold, this does point out

that there is a formulation principle that uses sugar to counteract mucus.

Again it is the formulation. Sito Paladi serves a similar purpose in my mind

as CM Cinnamon twig tea combinations which is to warm and vent the surface.

Similarly in Western herbal medicine there is a very famous and highly

respected formulation called composition powder that was literally made in

100 lb lots by 20th century herb doctors, who would use it as a first

defense for most acute ailments especially upper respiratory.

 

You can check out my synopsis on treating colds at

http://www.planethe

<http://www.planethe

<http://www.planetherbs.com/articles/colds.html#xtocid41225>

rbs.com/articles/colds.html#xtocid41225>

rbs.com/articles/colds.html#xtocid41225

 

Michael Tierra

www.planetherbs.com

 

PS -- while sugar is considered mucus forming or pro-kapha in Ayurveda,

honey is specifically used to counteract or treat kapha diseases. In fact it

is used as a carrier in all formulas intended for treating phlegm dampness.

After studying both extensively, I think that CM could easily benefit by

incorporating some of the more ancient formulation methods of Ayurveda. The

word in India is that both CM and Ayurvedic medicines are effective but

'Ayurvedic medicines taste better " .

 

The reason is because they don't rely on teas for everything, as a matter of

fact they use very little tea. They take powders, pastes and pills. combined

with 'carriers " typically honey for the mucus humor, oil for the nervous

system or vata humour, and ghee for the the fire or pitta humor. These three

'anupans' or carriers have an affinity for the humours and associated organs

and so herbs taken with them as fine powders are carried to the site of the

imbalance.

 

_____