clinical skill vs. academic prowess

[Guest guest]

All,

 

I am inspired by the story of Dr. Shen's migraine diagnosis to tell two short

stories.

 

A woman entered the treatment room complaining to multiple health issues. She

had severe " menopausal " symptoms including depression, insomnia, headaches, etc.

After a long interview of about 30-40 minutes, the practitioner asked the

patient about her home life, had she been divorced? She said yes. The

practitioner asked if she had been able to find resolution regarding the

divorce. She said yes with her voice but no with every other part of her body.

At this point the practitioner launched into a series of pointed questions

without allowing the patient to respond with anymore than a very brief answer

before asking another question or making a statement about how the patient

needed to accept this shift in her life. That this transition was intimately

related to the transition of menopause and her inability to accept is was the

reason she was struggling. After about 5 minutes of this the patient began to

get very upset (as did her son who was there " as support " ). The

practitioner was unwavering in his attempt to show the woman that this was, in

fact, the cause of her illness. Within another five minutes or so the patient

and her son, being very angry that they were not getting the treatment they had

come for stormed out of the clinic very angry. Approximately one year later a

letter come to the clinic from the woman. In it she explained that over time she

had realized that the practitioner was correct and sought out a counselor,

within a brief time all of her physical symptoms disappeared and she was feeling

better than she had felt in years.

NOTE: the details of this case may be somewhat inaccurate as it was some 13-14

years ago, but the spirit of the example is intact.

 

A woman entered the exam room for the first time complaining of fatigue,

sleeplessness, metal exhaustion, and vaginal dryness. After a short interview

the practitioner asked about her married life. She said she was happily married

for nearly 20 years. The practitioner asked had she ever " cheated " on her

husband. The woman became visibly uncomfortable and at first answered " no, " but

quickly rebutted her statement with a surprised " yes. " She explained that about

10 years ago she had meant a man while on a business trip and they had spent

some time together. They had not had " sexual relations " but they had kept up an

intimate personal relationship, talking on the phone occasionally and meeting at

least once a year. It was more than a friendship, she admitted, but it was also

something that she could never had told her husband because of the nature of the

relationship. The practitioner asked some questions, digging into the nature of

her feelings around this and how it might be

affected her health while examining her pulse. After about 10 minutes the woman

began to cry. The practitioner allowed her to cry for a bit then crossed the

divide to hold her hand gently, assuring her than the healing process was well

on its way. She had already done the most important part of the work. The woman

received an acupuncture treatment and was given an herbal formula. The next week

the woman revealed that she had contacted her friend and told him that she could

no longer communicate with him, the next day she told her husband about the

" affair " and he was upset but compassionate. She was already feeling better than

she had felt in a long time. After about a month the patient, although she

continued to come for " tune-ups " was feeling better than she had felt in over

ten years with a renewed marriage and outlook on life.

 

OK, So the first case is from when I was an apprentice with Michael Tierra.

Michael is an exceptional clinician. He doesn't know the classics like many

people I know and sometimes his ideas are, well let's just say unorthodox, but I

spent nearly three years working with him in his clinic (with two year before

that at his school) and saw more people healed in more ways than I could

possibly describe in one email.

The second case is from my own clinical practice. I learned a lot about clinical

practice from Michael and had the unique experience of going to CM school after

being licensed in the state of California through my apprenticeship with

Michael. I realized through that experience that students are not really taught

how to be healers in school, they are taught how to be clinicians, and even that

is, IMHO, a questionable assertion. Learning the skills of observation of all

the aspects of a person, their personality, their voice, expressions, etc is a

skill that comes with hours and hours and hours of OBSERVATION of skilled

practitioners. I feel very fortunate to have had the opportunity to observe

Michael and several other skilled practitioners while studying in Santa Cruz,

CA. I am (and my patients and students are, whether they know it or not) forever

indebted to these teachers.

I have personally taken to studying the language of Chinese (as well as the

literature and cultural context from which Chinese medicine has evolved) and

moved to China to focus on that and studying with teachers here. But that is my

personal path. I have also recently published a book that was inspired by my

work with Michael. It is most definitely an " out of the box " look and I, frankly

and unashamedly, think it is really great. It is very hard for me to say I would

put myself in either the traditionalists camp a la Bob Flaws, Jason B., Z'ev, et

al, or the " rebel " (sorry I don't know what to call it) a la Michael Tierra and

perhaps Alon, et al. I like having one foot in each camp, I like crossing the

tracks and spending time with anyone I think may have valuable teachings. I am

not sure either is better than the other, only different. I agree with both

camps' arguments and I'm willing to accept them as both being correct, just like

the wen bing folks accept the shang han

lun folks and vice versa, they are just two sides of the same coin, in my

humble opinion!

 

Well, this has gotten really long, I hope it is helpful in some way to at least

one person on this list.

 

Well that's my 2 mao.

Thomas

P.S. For those who may look at my website, I apologize that I have been unable

to update it, I do not have access to it from China and for some reason have

been unsuccessful in getting someone, there in the US, to help me rebuild

it...any takers?

 

 

 

Beijing, China

Author of Western Herbs According to Traditional : A

Practitioners Guide

 

www.sourcepointherbs.org

 

 

[Guest guest]

Well said, Thomas.

 

- Bill

 

 

 

,

wrote:

>

> All,

>

> I am inspired by the story of Dr. Shen's migraine diagnosis to tell

two short stories.

>

> A woman entered the treatment room complaining to multiple health

issues. She had severe " menopausal " symptoms including depression,

insomnia, headaches, etc. After a long interview of about 30-40

minutes, the practitioner asked the patient about her home life, had

she been divorced? She said yes. The practitioner asked if she had

been able to find resolution regarding the divorce. She said yes with

her voice but no with every other part of her body. At this point the

practitioner launched into a series of pointed questions without

allowing the patient to respond with anymore than a very brief answer

before asking another question or making a statement about how the

patient needed to accept this shift in her life. That this transition

was intimately related to the transition of menopause and her

inability to accept is was the reason she was struggling. After about

5 minutes of this the patient began to get very upset (as did her son

who was there " as support " ). The

> practitioner was unwavering in his attempt to show the woman that

this was, in fact, the cause of her illness. Within another five

minutes or so the patient and her son, being very angry that they were

not getting the treatment they had come for stormed out of the clinic

very angry. Approximately one year later a letter come to the clinic

from the woman. In it she explained that over time she had realized

that the practitioner was correct and sought out a counselor, within a

brief time all of her physical symptoms disappeared and she was

feeling better than she had felt in years.

> NOTE: the details of this case may be somewhat inaccurate as it was

some 13-14 years ago, but the spirit of the example is intact.

>

> A woman entered the exam room for the first time complaining of

fatigue, sleeplessness, metal exhaustion, and vaginal dryness. After a

short interview the practitioner asked about her married life. She

said she was happily married for nearly 20 years. The practitioner

asked had she ever " cheated " on her husband. The woman became visibly

uncomfortable and at first answered " no, " but quickly rebutted her

statement with a surprised " yes. " She explained that about 10 years

ago she had meant a man while on a business trip and they had spent

some time together. They had not had " sexual relations " but they had

kept up an intimate personal relationship, talking on the phone

occasionally and meeting at least once a year. It was more than a

friendship, she admitted, but it was also something that she could

never had told her husband because of the nature of the relationship.

The practitioner asked some questions, digging into the nature of her

feelings around this and how it might be

> affected her health while examining her pulse. After about 10

minutes the woman began to cry. The practitioner allowed her to cry

for a bit then crossed the divide to hold her hand gently, assuring

her than the healing process was well on its way. She had already done

the most important part of the work. The woman received an acupuncture

treatment and was given an herbal formula. The next week the woman

revealed that she had contacted her friend and told him that she could

no longer communicate with him, the next day she told her husband

about the " affair " and he was upset but compassionate. She was already

feeling better than she had felt in a long time. After about a month

the patient, although she continued to come for " tune-ups " was feeling

better than she had felt in over ten years with a renewed marriage and

outlook on life.

>

> OK, So the first case is from when I was an apprentice with Michael

Tierra. Michael is an exceptional clinician. He doesn't know the

classics like many people I know and sometimes his ideas are, well

let's just say unorthodox, but I spent nearly three years working with

him in his clinic (with two year before that at his school) and saw

more people healed in more ways than I could possibly describe in one

email.

> The second case is from my own clinical practice. I learned a lot

about clinical practice from Michael and had the unique experience of

going to CM school after being licensed in the state of California

through my apprenticeship with Michael. I realized through that

experience that students are not really taught how to be healers in

school, they are taught how to be clinicians, and even that is, IMHO,

a questionable assertion. Learning the skills of observation of all

the aspects of a person, their personality, their voice, expressions,

etc is a skill that comes with hours and hours and hours of

OBSERVATION of skilled practitioners. I feel very fortunate to have

had the opportunity to observe Michael and several other skilled

practitioners while studying in Santa Cruz, CA. I am (and my patients

and students are, whether they know it or not) forever indebted to

these teachers.

> I have personally taken to studying the language of Chinese (as well

as the literature and cultural context from which Chinese medicine has

evolved) and moved to China to focus on that and studying with

teachers here. But that is my personal path. I have also recently

published a book that was inspired by my work with Michael. It is most

definitely an " out of the box " look and I, frankly and unashamedly,

think it is really great. It is very hard for me to say I would put

myself in either the traditionalists camp a la Bob Flaws, Jason B.,

Z'ev, et al, or the " rebel " (sorry I don't know what to call it) a la

Michael Tierra and perhaps Alon, et al. I like having one foot in each

camp, I like crossing the tracks and spending time with anyone I think

may have valuable teachings. I am not sure either is better than the

other, only different. I agree with both camps' arguments and I'm

willing to accept them as both being correct, just like the wen bing

folks accept the shang han

> lun folks and vice versa, they are just two sides of the same coin,

in my humble opinion!

>

> Well, this has gotten really long, I hope it is helpful in some way

to at least one person on this list.

>

> Well that's my 2 mao.

> Thomas

> P.S. For those who may look at my website, I apologize that I have

been unable to update it, I do not have access to it from China and

for some reason have been unsuccessful in getting someone, there in

the US, to help me rebuild it...any takers?

>

>

>

> Beijing, China

> Author of Western Herbs According to Traditional : A

Practitioners Guide

>

> www.sourcepointherbs.org

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thomas,

 

 

 

Thanks for presenting these cases, although I am having a hard time

understanding the point of these cases (especially the first.)

 

 

 

In the first, we see a practitioner who chases away a patient because of

possibly bad communication skills. The fact that her physical symptoms

resolved through Western psycho-therapy at a later date means very little to

me. Does this case merely show that this patient just " needed " counseling to

resolve her symptoms? Did it show that all her symptoms are in her " mind? "

Although we cannot deny that counseling helped her, what is the take away

message here? And what does this have to do with CM?

 

 

 

As we know, Chinese medicine already has a model for many of these

situations. CM makes little distinction between the mind and body,

acknowledging that emotions (and life situations) and physical complaints

are connected, we have options in such situations. Treat what we see (i.e.

the pattern)!

 

 

 

On one hand this case demonstrates this connection (mind leading to physical

symptoms), it however misses the point that we have the ability to treat the

mind through our medicine and through the body. We do not have to rely on

talk-therapy. Once the symptoms manifest in the body (from stress /mind etc)

according to most schools of thought within CM, it is then one unit and can

then be treated as such. We do not need to separate out the components.

 

 

 

My sample case: A menopausal woman comes in with all sorts of physical

complaints. She mentions she is stuck in a horrible marriage, hasn't talked

to her daughter for years, as well as many other " life " complaints. I

noticed she had Liver qi stagnation with yin deficiency. I treat this

pattern and within a month or so, no joke, she left her husband, got a new

job, talked to her daughter etc. She was happy and symptom free. (Actually I

find this type of situation happens very often, treat the internal

disharmony and the life starts to get in order). Of course counseling could

have helped, as well as many other types of therapies, but I used what I

knew, CM, and I did not have my patient storm out the door.

 

 

 

Westerners like that we listen to their problems. Some of us get more

involved in this process than others. Although this can be therapeutic, this

counseling is however, not our primary treatment modality. IMO, if this

western physcotherapy interests you, study it and do it, and do not do it

half-ass and chase your patients out the door.

 

 

 

There are many therapies that heal people. Bob, Z'ev, or myself, will not

deny this. I don't think anyone is denying the utility of integration of

modalities into one's practice. If tuning forks float your boat than study

it and do it well! However, do not call this ancient CM. Furthermore, if one

gets into forks because they just like them then cool, but if they get into

them because they think CM can't treat these certain (i.e. emotional)

problems, then this is a different issue. It may be true, but our point is,

one must actually study CM deeply to have an informed opinion.

 

 

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of

Monday, February 25, 2008 6:58 PM

 

clinical skill vs. academic prowess

 

 

 

All,

 

I am inspired by the story of Dr. Shen's migraine diagnosis to tell two

short stories.

 

A woman entered the treatment room complaining to multiple health issues.

She had severe " menopausal " symptoms including depression, insomnia,

headaches, etc. After a long interview of about 30-40 minutes, the

practitioner asked the patient about her home life, had she been divorced?

She said yes. The practitioner asked if she had been able to find resolution

regarding the divorce. She said yes with her voice but no with every other

part of her body. At this point the practitioner launched into a series of

pointed questions without allowing the patient to respond with anymore than

a very brief answer before asking another question or making a statement

about how the patient needed to accept this shift in her life. That this

transition was intimately related to the transition of menopause and her

inability to accept is was the reason she was struggling. After about 5

minutes of this the patient began to get very upset (as did her son who was

there " as support " ). The

practitioner was unwavering in his attempt to show the woman that this was,

in fact, the cause of her illness. Within another five minutes or so the

patient and her son, being very angry that they were not getting the

treatment they had come for stormed out of the clinic very angry.

Approximately one year later a letter come to the clinic from the woman. In

it she explained that over time she had realized that the practitioner was

correct and sought out a counselor, within a brief time all of her physical

symptoms disappeared and she was feeling better than she had felt in years.

NOTE: the details of this case may be somewhat inaccurate as it was some

13-14 years ago, but the spirit of the example is intact.

 

A woman entered the exam room for the first time complaining of fatigue,

sleeplessness, metal exhaustion, and vaginal dryness. After a short

interview the practitioner asked about her married life. She said she was

happily married for nearly 20 years. The practitioner asked had she ever

" cheated " on her husband. The woman became visibly uncomfortable and at

first answered " no, " but quickly rebutted her statement with a surprised

" yes. " She explained that about 10 years ago she had meant a man while on a

business trip and they had spent some time together. They had not had

" sexual relations " but they had kept up an intimate personal relationship,

talking on the phone occasionally and meeting at least once a year. It was

more than a friendship, she admitted, but it was also something that she

could never had told her husband because of the nature of the relationship.

The practitioner asked some questions, digging into the nature of her

feelings around this and how it might be

affected her health while examining her pulse. After about 10 minutes the

woman began to cry. The practitioner allowed her to cry for a bit then

crossed the divide to hold her hand gently, assuring her than the healing

process was well on its way. She had already done the most important part of

the work. The woman received an acupuncture treatment and was given an

herbal formula. The next week the woman revealed that she had contacted her

friend and told him that she could no longer communicate with him, the next

day she told her husband about the " affair " and he was upset but

compassionate. She was already feeling better than she had felt in a long

time. After about a month the patient, although she continued to come for

" tune-ups " was feeling better than she had felt in over ten years with a

renewed marriage and outlook on life.

 

OK, So the first case is from when I was an apprentice with Michael Tierra.

Michael is an exceptional clinician. He doesn't know the classics like many

people I know and sometimes his ideas are, well let's just say unorthodox,

but I spent nearly three years working with him in his clinic (with two year

before that at his school) and saw more people healed in more ways than I

could possibly describe in one email.

The second case is from my own clinical practice. I learned a lot about

clinical practice from Michael and had the unique experience of going to CM

school after being licensed in the state of California through my

apprenticeship with Michael. I realized through that experience that

students are not really taught how to be healers in school, they are taught

how to be clinicians, and even that is, IMHO, a questionable assertion.

Learning the skills of observation of all the aspects of a person, their

personality, their voice, expressions, etc is a skill that comes with hours

and hours and hours of OBSERVATION of skilled practitioners. I feel very

fortunate to have had the opportunity to observe Michael and several other

skilled practitioners while studying in Santa Cruz, CA. I am (and my

patients and students are, whether they know it or not) forever indebted to

these teachers.

I have personally taken to studying the language of Chinese (as well as the

literature and cultural context from which Chinese medicine has evolved) and

moved to China to focus on that and studying with teachers here. But that is

my personal path. I have also recently published a book that was inspired by

my work with Michael. It is most definitely an " out of the box " look and I,

frankly and unashamedly, think it is really great. It is very hard for me to

say I would put myself in either the traditionalists camp a la Bob Flaws,

Jason B., Z'ev, et al, or the " rebel " (sorry I don't know what to call it) a

la Michael Tierra and perhaps Alon, et al. I like having one foot in each

camp, I like crossing the tracks and spending time with anyone I think may

have valuable teachings. I am not sure either is better than the other, only

different. I agree with both camps' arguments and I'm willing to accept them

as both being correct, just like the wen bing folks accept the shang han

lun folks and vice versa, they are just two sides of the same coin, in my

humble opinion!

 

Well, this has gotten really long, I hope it is helpful in some way to at

least one person on this list.

 

Well that's my 2 mao.

Thomas

P.S. For those who may look at my website, I apologize that I have been

unable to update it, I do not have access to it from China and for some

reason have been unsuccessful in getting someone, there in the US, to help

me rebuild it...any takers?

 

 

Beijing, China

Author of Western Herbs According to Traditional : A

Practitioners Guide

thomas@sourcepointh <thomas%40sourcepointherbs.org> erbs.org

www.sourcepointherbs.org

 

 

[Guest guest]

Jason,

 

I don't think that Thomas was suggesting that chasing a patient out

the door is an example of good practice skills. His point was that

there are certain innate skills, along with experience, that play an

important role in the successful practice of medicine.

 

- Bill

 

 

 

, " "

wrote:

>

> Thomas,

>

>

>

> Thanks for presenting these cases, although I am having a hard time

> understanding the point of these cases (especially the first.)

>

>

[Guest guest]

Bill,

 

 

 

I do not think anyone denies that innate skills, experience etc. aid one's

ability to practice medicine. Everyone understands the power of good bedside

manner. I hope everyone here understands that many things factor into the

healing process. This is precisely why Bob says acupuncture has saved our

herbal profession's butts. However, I am unsure how this case demonstrates

anything profound. Its presentation must have some purpose, therefore what

was it? My post is merely analyzing the message behind the case. My analysis

presents a few issues that we must deal with a profession. Only one of which

is, how do we treat physcho-emotional problems.

 

 

 

If you have a different interpretation of the case, and the message behind

it, please present it. I don't think Thomas's point was how not to handle

such a case, or was it?

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of bill_schoenbart

Tuesday, February 26, 2008 7:52 AM

 

Re: clinical skill vs. academic prowess

 

 

 

Jason,

 

I don't think that Thomas was suggesting that chasing a patient out

the door is an example of good practice skills. His point was that

there are certain innate skills, along with experience, that play an

important role in the successful practice of medicine.

 

- Bill

 

@ <%40>

, " "

wrote:

>

> Thomas,

>

>

>

> Thanks for presenting these cases, although I am having a hard time

> understanding the point of these cases (especially the first.)

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Aside form his point about non-academic skills, he was supporting

Micheal, his old mentor. Nothing wrong with that.

 

 

 

, " "

wrote:

>

> Bill,

>

>

>

> I do not think anyone denies that innate skills, experience etc. aid

one's

> ability to practice medicine. Everyone understands the power of good

bedside

> manner. I hope everyone here understands that many things factor

into the

> healing process. This is precisely why Bob says acupuncture has

saved our

> herbal profession's butts. However, I am unsure how this case

demonstrates

> anything profound. Its presentation must have some purpose,

therefore what

> was it? My post is merely analyzing the message behind the case. My

analysis

> presents a few issues that we must deal with a profession. Only one

of which

> is, how do we treat physcho-emotional problems.

>

>

>

> If you have a different interpretation of the case, and the message

behind

> it, please present it. I don't think Thomas's point was how not to

handle

> such a case, or was it?

>

>

>

> -Jason

>

>

>

> _____

>

>

> On Behalf Of bill_schoenbart

> Tuesday, February 26, 2008 7:52 AM

>

> Re: clinical skill vs. academic prowess

>

>

>

> Jason,

>

> I don't think that Thomas was suggesting that chasing a patient out

> the door is an example of good practice skills. His point was that

> there are certain innate skills, along with experience, that play an

> important role in the successful practice of medicine.

>

> - Bill

>

> @ <%40>

> , " "

> <@> wrote:

> >

> > Thomas,

> >

> >

> >

> > Thanks for presenting these cases, although I am having a hard time

> > understanding the point of these cases (especially the first.)

> >

>

[Guest guest]

All,

 

I enjoyed reading Thomas's stories. What I drew out of them is that a

good clinician knows when to offer herbal/ acupuncture treatment and

when not to. Knowing how to properly use the tools in the toolbox

means knowing when to not use them as well. It also means knowing

that our tool box is not limited to just those approaches.

 

I am reminded of a story that my first chinese medicine fundamentals

teacher shared with us (who was chinese, trained in china, and very

well respected). He said that in ancient china there was a king who

had become quite distraught because his wife, the queen, was was not

eating. The King did not know what to do. Many of the local

physicians tried to help, but nothing seemed to work. Then he heard

of a famous physician living in another village and invited him to

come to his palace.

 

When the famous Doctor came and analyzed the queen, he told the King

in private that he thought he could help his wife but that he had to

totally trust the doctor with his methods. Becuase of the Doctors

great reputation the king agreed.

 

So the doctor began his treatment, which consited of yelling

absurdities at the Queen and throwing all kinds of rotten food and

animal excrement at her. She became very anger and yelled for the

guards to take him away. The doctor ran from the palace, but the

guards left him alone, as per the previous arrangement with the king.

Once the Queen started to settle down from her rage, she became very

hunger and began eating again. She remanined this way ever after.

 

Obviously this is a story about the emotional aspects of the five

elements and how they affect the physical. I cannot read chinese so I

am not sure if this story exists in the classics, or if my teacher

just made it up. It was passed to me by a very reputable chinese

doctor, so I am assuming there must be some weight to it. Although I

wouldn't apply the same technique in our present modern society, it

does point out that the main part of Chinese medicine, for me, is the

diagnosis. Treatment options are vast and our tool box is bigger than

just the use of herbs or acupuncture or diet therapy. I do believe

that the doctors of past had good skill with, want may seem eccentric

and odd, counselling skills.

 

Trevor

 

 

, " "

wrote:

>

> Bill,

>

>

>

> I do not think anyone denies that innate skills, experience etc.

aid one's

> ability to practice medicine. Everyone understands the power of

good bedside

> manner. I hope everyone here understands that many things factor

into the

> healing process. This is precisely why Bob says acupuncture has

saved our

> herbal profession's butts. However, I am unsure how this case

demonstrates

> anything profound. Its presentation must have some purpose,

therefore what

> was it? My post is merely analyzing the message behind the case. My

analysis

> presents a few issues that we must deal with a profession. Only one

of which

> is, how do we treat physcho-emotional problems.

>

>

>

> If you have a different interpretation of the case, and the message

behind

> it, please present it. I don't think Thomas's point was how not to

handle

> such a case, or was it?

>

>

>

> -Jason

>

>

>

> _____

>

>

> On Behalf Of

bill_schoenbart

> Tuesday, February 26, 2008 7:52 AM

>

> Re: clinical skill vs. academic prowess

>

>

>

> Jason,

>

> I don't think that Thomas was suggesting that chasing a patient out

> the door is an example of good practice skills. His point was that

> there are certain innate skills, along with experience, that play an

> important role in the successful practice of medicine.

>

> - Bill

>

> @ <%

40>

> , " "

> <@> wrote:

> >

> > Thomas,

> >

> >

> >

> > Thanks for presenting these cases, although I am having a hard

time

> > understanding the point of these cases (especially the first.)

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Bill,

 

 

 

You are right nothing wrong what that, although I just can't figure out how

the case study is relevant and supports his POV.

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of bill_schoenbart

Tuesday, February 26, 2008 9:09 AM

 

Re: clinical skill vs. academic prowess

 

 

 

Aside form his point about non-academic skills, he was supporting

Micheal, his old mentor. Nothing wrong with that.

 

@ <%40>

, " "

wrote:

>

> Bill,

>

>

>

> I do not think anyone denies that innate skills, experience etc. aid

one's

> ability to practice medicine. Everyone understands the power of good

bedside

> manner. I hope everyone here understands that many things factor

into the

> healing process. This is precisely why Bob says acupuncture has

saved our

> herbal profession's butts. However, I am unsure how this case

demonstrates

> anything profound. Its presentation must have some purpose,

therefore what

> was it? My post is merely analyzing the message behind the case. My

analysis

> presents a few issues that we must deal with a profession. Only one

of which

> is, how do we treat physcho-emotional problems.

>

>

>

> If you have a different interpretation of the case, and the message

behind

> it, please present it. I don't think Thomas's point was how not to

handle

> such a case, or was it?

>

>

>

> -Jason

>

>

>

> _____

>

> @ <%40>

 

> [@ <%40>

] On Behalf Of bill_schoenbart

> Tuesday, February 26, 2008 7:52 AM

> @ <%40>

 

> Re: clinical skill vs. academic prowess

>

>

>

> Jason,

>

> I don't think that Thomas was suggesting that chasing a patient out

> the door is an example of good practice skills. His point was that

> there are certain innate skills, along with experience, that play an

> important role in the successful practice of medicine.

>

> - Bill

>

> @ <%40>

> , " "

> <@> wrote:

> >

> > Thomas,

> >

> >

> >

> > Thanks for presenting these cases, although I am having a hard time

> > understanding the point of these cases (especially the first.)

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Jason,

 

Regarding you comments below. First, I think you are incorrect in your assertion

that " counseling " is not our " primary " treatment modality. What I have learned

working with an old-school herbalist here is, that it is, in fact, a large part

of what CM is, not counseling per se but understanding the human condition,

which is what I was attempting to demonstrate with the cases I presented.

Counseling, perhaps not...but that is not what I was putting forth. I suggest

you reread the cases and try to remove your judgment.

 

I am saddened that you see this in a different light as I am quite sure that

others on this list would disagree. I will let them pipe up if they see fit.

 

Thomas

 

Westerners like that we listen to their problems. Some of us get more

involved in this process than others. Although this can be therapeutic, this

counseling is however, not our primary treatment modality. IMO, if this

western physcotherapy interests you, study it and do it, and do not do it

half-ass and chase your patients out the door.

 

 

 

Beijing, China

Author of Western Herbs According to Traditional : A

Practitioners Guide

 

www.sourcepointherbs.org

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thomas,

 

I would have to agree with you here. I tried to say in my last post

that from my understanding, counseling is a big part of classical

Chinese as I have been taught. Part of treating well is knowing what

to prescribe, in what form, and when. From what I have learned thus

far in my short career, good listening skills are critical for a good

outcome, and I do not feel 100% comfortable with prescribing herbs to

just everyone. I think the stories you mentioned were marvelous and

really brought out the importance of, as I already said, what

treatment to prescribe and when- meaning sometimes herbs may not be

the best choice.

 

In my short TCM career (3years out of college), I now see upwards of

60 people a week- 10-12 a day. I am expecting to get even busier as I

am offering a skin clinic that will be herbal consult only, no

acupuncture, meaning I may go up to 75 or 80 people a week. I have

trained with some of the best Chinese medical practitioners in their

respected fields, and I try my best to practice as I have been taught

in accordance with pure CM principles. But I must say that the most

important part I think I bring to the clinical setting is the idea of

narrative medicine.

 

By truly listening to the patients story, I develop trust, confidence,

and compliance to treatment. In an earlier post people complained of

patients not sticking it out past 1 to 3 weeks without change. I have

to admit that I rarely have this problem. Most of my patients are very

willing to go the long haul. I listen and I counsel and in my head and

on paper I do my pattern diferentation and I get results.

 

When I was in school my Gyno teacher, Dr Ling Xia once told me that in

her practice in the chinese hospital she felt that the doctors were

often times too rough. For example, when a woman came in to have an

abortion, the doctor would scold her saying, " It is all your fault for

being such a slut! " Obviously very rude and lacking proper bed side

manner. She said she would get in trouble herself from the other docs

because her style was a lot gentler. Anyways, in my clinical practice

I felt very honored when Ling Xia came to me and said that she thought

I would become a great doctor because I too brought a compasionate,

listening quality to the student clinic.

 

I am not meaning to gloat here, as I know many people also bring this

to their practice, all I am trying to point out is the importance of

listening and good counseling skill. For me it is crucial and I have

never found it to inhibit my practice of Chinese medicine as I have

been taught. On the contrary I think it has improved my clinical

efficacy and has allowed me to truly understand my patients pattern,

etiology, and prognosis a lot better.

 

Just my 2 canadian cents,

Trevor

 

,

wrote:

>

> Jason,

>

> Regarding you comments below. First, I think you are incorrect in

your assertion that " counseling " is not our " primary " treatment

modality. What I have learned working with an old-school herbalist

here is, that it is, in fact, a large part of what CM is, not

counseling per se but understanding the human condition, which is what

I was attempting to demonstrate with the cases I presented.

Counseling, perhaps not...but that is not what I was putting forth. I

suggest you reread the cases and try to remove your judgment.

>

> I am saddened that you see this in a different light as I am quite

sure that others on this list would disagree. I will let them pipe up

if they see fit.

>

> Thomas

>

> Westerners like that we listen to their problems. Some of us get more

> involved in this process than others. Although this can be

therapeutic, this

> counseling is however, not our primary treatment modality. IMO, if this

> western physcotherapy interests you, study it and do it, and do not

do it

> half-ass and chase your patients out the door.

>

>

>

> Beijing, China

> Author of Western Herbs According to Traditional : A

Practitioners Guide

>

> www.sourcepointherbs.org

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jason,

 

Ok, let me break it down for you. First, I want to say that I think what Trevor

said was a keen insight into what I was attempting to convey to the group. Also,

Michael is and has been someone I have a very deep respect for as a teacher and

practitioner. He is old school, you know the " school of hard knocks. " (and btw,

an exceptional pianist as is his son). You are, well frankly not old enough nor

experienced enough to know the difference. Your pedantic attitude is coarse and

doesn't jive with how you present yourself on your own website.

 

Ok, so I hope that wasn't so insulting that I get in trouble but I feel it

needed to be said.

 

The point of my stories is that, as Trevor pointed out, there is, as my

grandfather would say, " more than one way to skin a cat. " What this means is not

that we should continue to search out new ways but that we should be open to the

reality that there are, in fact, many ways to approach healing. Did the

practitioner do an effective job at communicating to the first patient what

needed to be done. Well, let me tell you, since I was there, I believe he could

have done a better job, however I also know that the patient was very resistant

to hear what she obviously needed to hear. And, frankly sometimes, perhaps,

people just need to be told straight up what the problem is, allowing them to

decide if they are willing or able to deal with it. (Also, I think it is

important to recognize that we can't help everyone and sometimes the best we can

do is give it our best shot and let " fate " do the rest.) Is this my approach,

no! Have I used this approach, yes! Was it effective,

somethings yes, sometimes no. I wonder if some of the other more experienced

practitioners on this list have had similar experiences...anyone?

 

Now, my experience is hardly vast, I started working as an herbalist in the

early 1990's and then went on to get my acu license in 1997. I have worked

full-time as a practitioner for more than half of that time and taught for two

years in Hawai'i, both in the classroom and the clinic. So, with about 15 years

of experience, what I have noticed is that most Americans want and need to be

heard. I find that most chronic diseases, which is what I focus on, have a large

component of emotional/spiritual connection and that using these " other tools "

is invaluable, in fact I think I would feel quite naked without them. I strongly

believe that the white-washing of this aspect of CM since the 1950's is on par

with the AMA take-over of medicine in the US after WWI, indeed a great crime to

humanity. My current teacher is retired from the hospital and now prefers to do

house calls. He will only treat those that are willing to do the work needed. He

says he prefers to do house calls

because of the vast amount of information he gains from seeing the way the

person lives. He doesn't believe that one must talk for long periods of time,

but I think there is a cultural context that is different when we are talking

about American vs. Chinese patients. His therapies are often multi-pronged, but

I will reserve expounding on this at the moment because I haven't worked with

him for very long and it would be tangential to this discussion.

 

If you only want to use CM, I suggest you change your website, dig in and stop

judging people for what they do. If you want to focus on ganmao, great, it might

be desperately needed soon if there is another flu epidemic. And, if that is

what you are focusing on then I would agree with your assertion that you only

need CM, as this is generally quite simple to treat. As for me, I prefer to dig

into the depths of peoples lives with compassion and empathy in hopes to

creating positive and long lasting change, and frankly I don't even like to

treat acute problems unless it is for a current patient.

 

Well, that's all I've got to say for now. I trust this will go on for some time

and I am more than willing to keep fielding your questions or searches for

clarification, but I will be leaving in about a week for Yunnan to do some

ethnobotany research, so after that I will have only scant internet access until

I return to Beijing in April. So, step up the bar, let's have a beer and hammer

it out, unfortunately (for me) you will be able to enjoy a much more tasty beer

than I have access to here.

 

In Good Health,

Thomas

 

 

 

Beijing, China

Author of Western Herbs According to Traditional : A

Practitioners Guide

 

www.sourcepointherbs.org

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thomas,

 

Thanks for your comments, please understand that my previous

statements were never intended as personal attacks, and only for the

betterment of the medicine. I also regret the fact that you feel the

need to judge me and my experience, and make slanderous comments,

without ever meeting me.

 

Once again, I in no way feel, or have said, that anyone should ONLY

practice CM, maybe my point has been missed. My practice and website

are accurate in what I have said and believe in my practice. Apart

from a wide range of influences in CM from classical to modern, I also

practice functional medicine, naturopathic medicine, and on occasion,

yes " counseling. " If my previous posts on this topic are not clear I

will be happy to clarify.

 

As far as counseling, of course I agree that " understanding the human

condition " is part of our job. However, this is much different than

the way we were using the term previously, i.e. similar western

psychotherapy. As you mentioned in your case the patient went and

sought out counseling (from someone other than the original practitioner.)

 

That being said, I find there is little support in the literature

(modern and classical) or from my experience observing many doctors in

China, Taiwan, or the US, that support that this " counseling " aspect

is the " primary " treatment modality in CM practice. I think you are

twisting my words... So that it is clear, counseling may be useful,

but that is a separate issue. There will always be exceptions and wild

" counseling " stories, but that does not make it correct...

 

Finally, I also have deep respect for Michael, but that does not make

him or anyone exempt from critical evaluation and analysis. If we

cannot disagree and question others methods and ideas, how can we

advance the medicine in this country? There is a lot of crap in both

China and US that should be sorted through. Please don't take things

so personal.

 

-Jason

 

P.s. I will be in China in April, for that Beer..

 

,

wrote:

>

> Jason,

>

> Ok, let me break it down for you. First, I want to say that I think

what Trevor said was a keen insight into what I was attempting to

convey to the group. Also, Michael is and has been someone I have a

very deep respect for as a teacher and practitioner. He is old school,

you know the " school of hard knocks. " (and btw, an exceptional pianist

as is his son). You are, well frankly not old enough nor experienced

enough to know the difference. Your pedantic attitude is coarse and

doesn't jive with how you present yourself on your own website.

>

> Ok, so I hope that wasn't so insulting that I get in trouble but I

feel it needed to be said.

>

> The point of my stories is that, as Trevor pointed out, there is, as

my grandfather would say, " more than one way to skin a cat. " What this

means is not that we should continue to search out new ways but that

we should be open to the reality that there are, in fact, many ways to

approach healing. Did the practitioner do an effective job at

communicating to the first patient what needed to be done. Well, let

me tell you, since I was there, I believe he could have done a better

job, however I also know that the patient was very resistant to hear

what she obviously needed to hear. And, frankly sometimes, perhaps,

people just need to be told straight up what the problem is, allowing

them to decide if they are willing or able to deal with it. (Also, I

think it is important to recognize that we can't help everyone and

sometimes the best we can do is give it our best shot and let " fate "

do the rest.) Is this my approach, no! Have I used this approach, yes!

Was it effective,

> somethings yes, sometimes no. I wonder if some of the other more

experienced practitioners on this list have had similar

experiences...anyone?

>

> Now, my experience is hardly vast, I started working as an herbalist

in the early 1990's and then went on to get my acu license in 1997. I

have worked full-time as a practitioner for more than half of that

time and taught for two years in Hawai'i, both in the classroom and

the clinic. So, with about 15 years of experience, what I have noticed

is that most Americans want and need to be heard. I find that most

chronic diseases, which is what I focus on, have a large component of

emotional/spiritual connection and that using these " other tools " is

invaluable, in fact I think I would feel quite naked without them. I

strongly believe that the white-washing of this aspect of CM since the

1950's is on par with the AMA take-over of medicine in the US after

WWI, indeed a great crime to humanity. My current teacher is retired

from the hospital and now prefers to do house calls. He will only

treat those that are willing to do the work needed. He says he prefers

to do house calls

> because of the vast amount of information he gains from seeing the

way the person lives. He doesn't believe that one must talk for long

periods of time, but I think there is a cultural context that is

different when we are talking about American vs. Chinese patients. His

therapies are often multi-pronged, but I will reserve expounding on

this at the moment because I haven't worked with him for very long and

it would be tangential to this discussion.

>

> If you only want to use CM, I suggest you change your website, dig

in and stop judging people for what they do. If you want to focus on

ganmao, great, it might be desperately needed soon if there is another

flu epidemic. And, if that is what you are focusing on then I would

agree with your assertion that you only need CM, as this is generally

quite simple to treat. As for me, I prefer to dig into the depths of

peoples lives with compassion and empathy in hopes to creating

positive and long lasting change, and frankly I don't even like to

treat acute problems unless it is for a current patient.

>

> Well, that's all I've got to say for now. I trust this will go on

for some time and I am more than willing to keep fielding your

questions or searches for clarification, but I will be leaving in

about a week for Yunnan to do some ethnobotany research, so after that

I will have only scant internet access until I return to Beijing in

April. So, step up the bar, let's have a beer and hammer it out,

unfortunately (for me) you will be able to enjoy a much more tasty

beer than I have access to here.

>

> In Good Health,

> Thomas

>

>

>

> Beijing, China

> Author of Western Herbs According to Traditional : A

Practitioners Guide

>

> www.sourcepointherbs.org

>

>

[Guest guest]

On Behalf Of

..I also practice functional medicine, naturopathic medicine, and on

occasion,

yes " counseling. " If my previous posts on this topic are not clear I

will be happy to clarify.

 

 

 

I am surprised by your stating that you practice naturopathic medicine,

Jason. I get annoyed with naturopaths that say they practice TCM with little

training, so it seems the opposite should also be true. Sitting through a

bunch of Jeff Bland seminars and saying you do functional medicine is one

thing, but saying you practice a whole system like naturopathic medicine

seems incongruous to your statements regarding depth of study in Chinese

medicine.

 

Respectfully,

 

Sean

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Sean,

 

I have studied naturopathic and functional medicine for over 15 years, and have

a four year degree in Alternative medicine (prior to TCM school) that focused

mainly on such Western therapies. Granted I feel I am much better at CM and

enjoy it much more, I feel that such a claim is not a stretch, especially since

to this day, I spend sometimes hours a day researching and studying the subject.

I do think that there is a lot to learn in both subjects and far from claiming

mastery in any of them. (Hopefully not to offend anyone) but my experience is

that naturopathic medicine (theory) has no where near the depth of CM. Its

theory is primarily based on Western medicine and not that difficult if one

understands Western physiology and pathology. Their therapies are much more

straightforward as compared to CM. This is just my opinion and why I now spend

the majority of my time in CM.

 

For such reasons it is not my primary therapy. I only stated that I practice

these other modalities to demonstrate that I am open to someone practicing

multiple modalities. Finally one's ability to practice (or claim to practice) is

directly related to experience and study. I feel I can hold my own in CM or the

other therapies I mentioned. Not that it proves anything, but I have put more

time in than you can shake a stick at. My learning includes much more than a few

J. Bland seminars (which BTW I have never attended.) If you want to go after

someone, go after those mail order schools that are pumping out " naturopathic

degrees " left and right. At least they were 15 years ago.

 

Finally, maybe I should have more accurately stated I practice " aspects of

naturopathic and functional medicine. " I in no way embrace all of their ideas

and philosophies. hence why I went into CM.

 

-Jason

 

 

> ----

> Sean Doherty <sean

> RE: Re: clinical skill vs. academic prowess

> 28 Feb '08 00:43

>

> [LINK: %40]

>

> [[LINK: %40]

> ] On Behalf Of

> .I also practice functional medicine, naturopathic medicine, and on

> occasion,

> yes " counseling. " If my previous posts on this topic are not clear I

> will be happy to clarify.

>

> I am surprised by your stating that you practice naturopathic medicine,

> Jason. I get annoyed with naturopaths that say they practice TCM with

> little

> training, so it seems the opposite should also be true. Sitting through a

> bunch of Jeff Bland seminars and saying you do functional medicine is one

> thing, but saying you practice a whole system like naturopathic medicine

> seems incongruous to your statements regarding depth of study in Chinese

> medicine.

>

> Respectfully,

>

> Sean

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sean,

 

I wanted to say one further thing about your last statement.

 

One of the best and most knowledgeable Western CM practitioners and lectures I

have met is Dan Bensky. His depth is self-evident. He also happens to be at the

top of his field in Osteopathic medicine. Clearly one can practice multiple

systems deeply. My point has always been if you are going to learn something

learn it deeply. It really depends on how much time and energy you have towards

such pursuits. Therefore while still acknowledging the immense depth I still

have to uncover, I do not feel that I short my pursuits by any means, therefore

I stand by my previous statements in regard to depth.

 

My issue has always been when someone superficially studies something and then

starts integrating it with something else. I feel they may come up with

brilliance, but there is a good chance that they are creating incorrect

correlations. That is why I vote for peer review.

 

Others?

 

-

 

 

 

> ----

> Sean Doherty <sean

> RE: Re: clinical skill vs. academic prowess

> 28 Feb '08 00:43

>

> [LINK: %40]

>

> [[LINK: %40]

> ] On Behalf Of

> .I also practice functional medicine, naturopathic medicine, and on

> occasion,

> yes " counseling. " If my previous posts on this topic are not clear I

> will be happy to clarify.

>

> I am surprised by your stating that you practice naturopathic medicine,

> Jason. I get annoyed with naturopaths that say they practice TCM with

> little

> training, so it seems the opposite should also be true. Sitting through a

> bunch of Jeff Bland seminars and saying you do functional medicine is one

> thing, but saying you practice a whole system like naturopathic medicine

> seems incongruous to your statements regarding depth of study in Chinese

> medicine.

>

> Respectfully,

>

> Sean

>

>

[Guest guest]

In his new book " healthy revolution " David Brady, professor of Naturopathy

at the accredited university of Bridgeport states that graduates of the 4

accredited US or 2 Canadian naturopathy schools should call themselves

Naturopathic " Doctors " while others who trained elsewhere should use the

term " naturopaths " .

 

The issue is complicated, but boils down to the fact that there are far more

naturopaths trained by " nonaccredited " methods (e.g. the well respected

Linda Page); efforts to legislatively create licensure are blocked by these

other naturopaths b/c they would lose their right to practice. Their sheer

numbers have proved to be an effective blockade.

 

Ultimately Jason's amended comment that he practices " aspects of

naturopathic and functional medicine " sits much better with me personally.

I too get a little frustrated with those who put the time in at NCNM or

Bastyr are lumped together with the Clayton College crowd.

 

Lastly, Jeff Bland and IFM's symposia cost $3500 ($2500 for LAc). You can

buy the notes and audio for around $300. I'm not surprised Jason hasn't

gone to a Jeff bland seminar...

 

-Tim Sharpe

Acupuncturist and fellow long-time studier of " aspects " of naturopathic and

functional medicine

 

 

Sean Doherty

Wednesday, February 27, 2008 7:44 PM

 

I am surprised by your stating that you practice naturopathic medicine,

Jason. I get annoyed with naturopaths that say they practice TCM with little

training, so it seems the opposite should also be true. Sitting through a

bunch of Jeff Bland seminars and saying you do functional medicine is one

thing, but saying you practice a whole system like naturopathic medicine

seems incongruous to your statements regarding depth of study in Chinese

medicine.

 

Respectfully,

 

Sean

[Guest guest]

Jason,

 

We have gone on and on about standards of practice over the years. We claim

there is a standard here in this country for Chinese medicine (granted it

could use improving) and that is the master's and now doctoral programs.

You may quibble, but the standard for naturopaths is a four year degree from

one of the accredited schools. So if you say you practice that way, you

really should have an ND after your name that came from that source.

Granted there are people like Todd (and possibly yourself), that spent a

certain number of years in naturopathic school, bailed and then went to

study CM integrating their previous education to some degree. You may put

yourself into that category, but from the outside it doesn't look quite

right. My undergrad was pre-med but I don't say I practice allopathic

medicine. I know you have already qualified the degree to which you practice

these other modalities, but I just wanted to further clarify my viewpoint.

 

 

 

I am sure you have a broad knowledge base in the modalities that you bring

into your clinic, and I don't get the sense that you are a person that likes

to experiment on his patients. I would agree that any one point in Western

medicine is not conceptually difficult, but on the whole it is voluminous.

I mean, kudos to you if you've know the sum total of all the biochemistry

that is out there. It is funny because I remember that biochemistry was Bob

F's key differentiation between acupuncture and herbs. No argument from me,

and I doubt from you. I don't really want to argue the merits of

naturopathic medicine, but I think there are a number of things that

differentiate it from Western medicine, not least of which is it's directive

to treat the root cause of disease and not just the symptoms, just like CM.

 

 

 

 

I think the differentiation between " naturopaths " and " naturopathic doctors "

that Tim mentioned is not one that the majority of the population is likely

to navigate effectively. There are also some that would rather be called

naturopathic physicians to further complicate matters. The difference

between " doctor " and " physician " is huge. The latter gets hospital

privileges.

 

 

 

As far as functional medicine is concerned, that was coined by Jeff Bland

and since you like to go to the source, I figured you would have had some

exposure to his stuff, and although Tim is right that IFM symposia are

pricey (they are week long events), JB has done plenty of day seminars at

lower cost, or you can get the Functional Medicine Updates for around

$20/month.

 

 

 

I am not arguing any one individuals ability to study a multitude of topics

deeply, just in the blurring of standards for ones own benefit. I don't

quite understand your reference to Dan B. He has obviously contributed a

lot to the profession, but the rigor of his background in CM has been

heavily debated on this list, as has his not wanting to conform to Wiseman

terminology, the latter of which I was under the impression that you are a

fierce proponent of. I don't know where the truth lies with his CM

training, and don't care much. I definitely do not want to reopen any of

those issues, but I do agree that a person can acquire many degrees, be an

expert in those fields and be justified in advertising the fact.

 

 

 

Peer review = good

 

 

 

Sean

 

 

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of

Wednesday, February 27, 2008 8:13 PM

 

RE: Re: clinical skill vs. academic prowess

 

 

 

Sean,

 

I have studied naturopathic and functional medicine for over 15 years, and

have a four year degree in Alternative medicine (prior to TCM school) that

focused mainly on such Western therapies. Granted I feel I am much better at

CM and enjoy it much more, I feel that such a claim is not a stretch,

especially since to this day, I spend sometimes hours a day researching and

studying the subject. I do think that there is a lot to learn in both

subjects and far from claiming mastery in any of them. (Hopefully not to

offend anyone) but my experience is that naturopathic medicine (theory) has

no where near the depth of CM. Its theory is primarily based on Western

medicine and not that difficult if one understands Western physiology and

pathology. Their therapies are much more straightforward as compared to CM.

This is just my opinion and why I now spend the majority of my time in CM.

 

For such reasons it is not my primary therapy. I only stated that I practice

these other modalities to demonstrate that I am open to someone practicing

multiple modalities. Finally one's ability to practice (or claim to

practice) is directly related to experience and study. I feel I can hold my

own in CM or the other therapies I mentioned. Not that it proves anything,

but I have put more time in than you can shake a stick at. My learning

includes much more than a few J. Bland seminars (which BTW I have never

attended.) If you want to go after someone, go after those mail order

schools that are pumping out " naturopathic degrees " left and right. At least

they were 15 years ago.

 

Finally, maybe I should have more accurately stated I practice " aspects of

naturopathic and functional medicine. " I in no way embrace all of their

ideas and philosophies. hence why I went into CM.

 

-Jason

 

> ----

> Sean Doherty <sean (AT) pointnatural (DOT) <sean%40pointnatural.com>

com>

> RE: Re: clinical skill vs. academic prowess

> 28 Feb '08 00:43

>

> [LINK: %40]

> @ <%40>

 

> [[LINK: %40]

> @ <%40>

] On Behalf Of

> .I also practice functional medicine, naturopathic medicine, and on

> occasion,

> yes " counseling. " If my previous posts on this topic are not clear I

> will be happy to clarify.

>

> I am surprised by your stating that you practice naturopathic medicine,

> Jason. I get annoyed with naturopaths that say they practice TCM with

> little

> training, so it seems the opposite should also be true. Sitting through a

> bunch of Jeff Bland seminars and saying you do functional medicine is one

> thing, but saying you practice a whole system like naturopathic medicine

> seems incongruous to your statements regarding depth of study in Chinese

> medicine.

>

> Respectfully,

>

> Sean

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sean, you've made the point about naturophathy. However innuendos

about 3rd person's credentials are not appropriate. I'm not sure where

Dan Bensky's translation style fits in but I am very impressed with

your style of argument though. ;-)

 

As you probably know the Redwing List has a fascinating and

informative thread going on about peer review.

Doug

 

 

 

" I don't know where the truth lies with his CM training, and don't

care much. I definitely do not want to reopen any of those issues,

but I do agree that a person can acquire many degrees, be an expert in

those fields and be justified in advertising the fact. "

 

 

>

 

 

, " Sean Doherty " <sean

wrote:

>

> Jason,

>

> We have gone on and on about standards of practice over the years.

We claim

> there is a standard here in this country for Chinese medicine

(granted it

> could use improving) and that is the master's and now doctoral programs.

> You may quibble, but the standard for naturopaths is a four year

degree from

> one of the accredited schools. So if you say you practice that way, you

> really should have an ND after your name that came from that source.

> Granted there are people like Todd (and possibly yourself), that spent a

> certain number of years in naturopathic school, bailed and then went to

> study CM integrating their previous education to some degree. You

may put

> yourself into that category, but from the outside it doesn't look quite

> right. My undergrad was pre-med but I don't say I practice allopathic

> medicine. I know you have already qualified the degree to which you

practice

> these other modalities, but I just wanted to further clarify my

viewpoint.

>

>

>

> I am sure you have a broad knowledge base in the modalities that you

bring

> into your clinic, and I don't get the sense that you are a person

that likes

> to experiment on his patients. I would agree that any one point in

Western

> medicine is not conceptually difficult, but on the whole it is

voluminous.

> I mean, kudos to you if you've know the sum total of all the

biochemistry

> that is out there. It is funny because I remember that biochemistry

was Bob

> F's key differentiation between acupuncture and herbs. No argument

from me,

> and I doubt from you. I don't really want to argue the merits of

> naturopathic medicine, but I think there are a number of things that

> differentiate it from Western medicine, not least of which is it's

directive

> to treat the root cause of disease and not just the symptoms, just

like CM.

>

>

>

>

> I think the differentiation between " naturopaths " and " naturopathic

doctors "

> that Tim mentioned is not one that the majority of the population is

likely

> to navigate effectively. There are also some that would rather be called

> naturopathic physicians to further complicate matters. The difference

> between " doctor " and " physician " is huge. The latter gets hospital

> privileges.

>

>

>

> As far as functional medicine is concerned, that was coined by Jeff

Bland

> and since you like to go to the source, I figured you would have had

some

> exposure to his stuff, and although Tim is right that IFM symposia are

> pricey (they are week long events), JB has done plenty of day

seminars at

> lower cost, or you can get the Functional Medicine Updates for around

> $20/month.

>

>

>

> I am not arguing any one individuals ability to study a multitude of

topics

> deeply, just in the blurring of standards for ones own benefit. I don't

> quite understand your reference to Dan B. He has obviously

contributed a

> lot to the profession, but the rigor of his background in CM has been

> heavily debated on this list, as has his not wanting to conform to

Wiseman

> terminology, the latter of which I was under the impression that you

are a

> fierce proponent of. I don't know where the truth lies with his CM

> training, and don't care much. I definitely do not want to reopen

any of

> those issues, but I do agree that a person can acquire many degrees,

be an

> expert in those fields and be justified in advertising the fact.

>

>

>

> Peer review = good

>

>

>

> Sean

>

>

>

>

>

> _____

[Guest guest]

Sean,

Those of us who wished to study Chinese medicine 25-30 years ago

had a rough go of it, Dan included. All of us have had to continue

our studies over the intervening years, and I can say that is what is

important, to continue to grow and learn. I took a seminar at the

Seattle Institute of Oriental Medicine with Volker Scheid two summers

ago, and had an opportunity to observe Dan teaching pulse diagnosis in

clinic. I had to say I was again very impressed with his knowledge

base and abilities as a teacher. As far as 'conforming to Wiseman

terminology', I don't think anyone wants anything so distasteful to

happen. As a supporter of Wiseman terminology, I can say that the

issue is having clear translation standards, dictionaries and

glossaries available so that students and practitioners can understand

the methodology and intent of translators and their works, and learn

more in the process. It is not about forcing anyone to use a specific

English term equivalent for a Chinese character. Nigel and Feng Ye

were just the pioneers in championing these issues.

 

 

On Feb 28, 2008, at 8:16 AM, Sean Doherty wrote:

 

> I am not arguing any one individuals ability to study a multitude of

> topics

> deeply, just in the blurring of standards for ones own benefit. I

> don't

> quite understand your reference to Dan B. He has obviously

> contributed a

> lot to the profession, but the rigor of his background in CM has been

> heavily debated on this list, as has his not wanting to conform to

> Wiseman

> terminology, the latter of which I was under the impression that you

> are a

> fierce proponent of. I don't know where the truth lies with his CM

> training, and don't care much. I definitely do not want to reopen

> any of

> those issues, but I do agree that a person can acquire many degrees,

> be an

> expert in those fields and be justified in advertising the fact.

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Sean,

 

I think you bring up important points in regard to certification that we all

must contemplate as a profession and society. However, there are many issues in

regard to who can do what, (i.e. practice acupuncture, dispense supplements,

dispense Chinese herbs etc.) It is not black and white issue.

 

But, just for the record, I do not, and have never, labeled myself as a ND /

naturopath. I utilize techniques (etc) that are within my legal scope, as well

as what I consider my personal ethical boundaries. My ¡°website¡± is hopefully

clear on that. At a certain point (even with Chinese herbs) it becomes a

personal (ethical) decision.

 

Although this has little to do with our original topic, my reasons for not

attending J. Bland seminars are not at all financial. There are many way to

learn material. However for the record I think that functional medicine¡¯s

ability to think about the root cause and the relationships that cause disease

are superior to naturopathic medicine. Its thinking method (once one gets in

deep) is very akin to CM. Hence my attraction to it and why I started the

Functional Medicine Discussion Group ().

 

I suggest we continue this conversation there because I feel we are getting

farther and farther off topic.

 

Finally, I think your comments about Dan and translation have already been

addressed by others. Your thinking around this issue, IMHO, deserves refinement.

I was also unclear, what am I a fierce proponent of??? (I really think people

make far too many assumptions about what people believe or not) ¨C Hence we all

could better work our clarity of writing, thought, and communication.

 

Respectfully,

 

-Jason

 

> ----

> Sean Doherty <sean

> RE: Re: clinical skill vs. academic prowess

> 28 Feb '08 16:16

>

> Jason,

>

> We have gone on and on about standards of practice over the years. We

> claim

> there is a standard here in this country for Chinese medicine (granted it

> could use improving) and that is the master's and now doctoral programs.

> You may quibble, but the standard for naturopaths is a four year degree

> from

> one of the accredited schools. So if you say you practice that way, you

> really should have an ND after your name that came from that source.

> Granted there are people like Todd (and possibly yourself), that spent a

> certain number of years in naturopathic school, bailed and then went to

> study CM integrating their previous education to some degree. You may put

> yourself into that category, but from the outside it doesn't look quite

> right. My undergrad was pre-med but I don't say I practice allopathic

> medicine. I know you have already qualified the degree to which you

> practice

> these other modalities, but I just wanted to further clarify my

> viewpoint.

>

> I am sure you have a broad knowledge base in the modalities that you

> bring

> into your clinic, and I don't get the sense that you are a person that

> likes

> to experiment on his patients. I would agree that any one point in

> Western

> medicine is not conceptually difficult, but on the whole it is

> voluminous.

> I mean, kudos to you if you've know the sum total of all the biochemistry

> that is out there. It is funny because I remember that biochemistry was

> Bob

> F's key differentiation between acupuncture and herbs. No argument from

> me,

> and I doubt from you. I don't really want to argue the merits of

> naturopathic medicine, but I think there are a number of things that

> differentiate it from Western medicine, not least of which is it's

> directive

> to treat the root cause of disease and not just the symptoms, just like

> CM.

>

> I think the differentiation between " naturopaths " and " naturopathic

> doctors "

> that Tim mentioned is not one that the majority of the population is

> likely

> to navigate effectively. There are also some that would rather be called

> naturopathic physicians to further complicate matters. The difference

> between " doctor " and " physician " is huge. The latter gets hospital

> privileges.

>

> As far as functional medicine is concerned, that was coined by Jeff Bland

> and since you like to go to the source, I figured you would have had some

> exposure to his stuff, and although Tim is right that IFM symposia are

> pricey (they are week long events), JB has done plenty of day seminars at

> lower cost, or you can get the Functional Medicine Updates for around

> $20/month.

>

> I am not arguing any one individuals ability to study a multitude of

> topics

> deeply, just in the blurring of standards for ones own benefit. I don't

> quite understand your reference to Dan B. He has obviously contributed a

> lot to the profession, but the rigor of his background in CM has been

> heavily debated on this list, as has his not wanting to conform to

> Wiseman

> terminology, the latter of which I was under the impression that you are

> a

> fierce proponent of. I don't know where the truth lies with his CM

> training, and don't care much. I definitely do not want to reopen any of

> those issues, but I do agree that a person can acquire many degrees, be

> an

> expert in those fields and be justified in advertising the fact.

>

> Peer review = good

>

> Sean

>