Guest guest Posted February 25, 2008 Report Share Posted February 25, 2008 All, I am inspired by the story of Dr. Shen's migraine diagnosis to tell two short stories. A woman entered the treatment room complaining to multiple health issues. She had severe " menopausal " symptoms including depression, insomnia, headaches, etc. After a long interview of about 30-40 minutes, the practitioner asked the patient about her home life, had she been divorced? She said yes. The practitioner asked if she had been able to find resolution regarding the divorce. She said yes with her voice but no with every other part of her body. At this point the practitioner launched into a series of pointed questions without allowing the patient to respond with anymore than a very brief answer before asking another question or making a statement about how the patient needed to accept this shift in her life. That this transition was intimately related to the transition of menopause and her inability to accept is was the reason she was struggling. After about 5 minutes of this the patient began to get very upset (as did her son who was there " as support " ). The practitioner was unwavering in his attempt to show the woman that this was, in fact, the cause of her illness. Within another five minutes or so the patient and her son, being very angry that they were not getting the treatment they had come for stormed out of the clinic very angry. Approximately one year later a letter come to the clinic from the woman. In it she explained that over time she had realized that the practitioner was correct and sought out a counselor, within a brief time all of her physical symptoms disappeared and she was feeling better than she had felt in years. NOTE: the details of this case may be somewhat inaccurate as it was some 13-14 years ago, but the spirit of the example is intact. A woman entered the exam room for the first time complaining of fatigue, sleeplessness, metal exhaustion, and vaginal dryness. After a short interview the practitioner asked about her married life. She said she was happily married for nearly 20 years. The practitioner asked had she ever " cheated " on her husband. The woman became visibly uncomfortable and at first answered " no, " but quickly rebutted her statement with a surprised " yes. " She explained that about 10 years ago she had meant a man while on a business trip and they had spent some time together. They had not had " sexual relations " but they had kept up an intimate personal relationship, talking on the phone occasionally and meeting at least once a year. It was more than a friendship, she admitted, but it was also something that she could never had told her husband because of the nature of the relationship. The practitioner asked some questions, digging into the nature of her feelings around this and how it might be affected her health while examining her pulse. After about 10 minutes the woman began to cry. The practitioner allowed her to cry for a bit then crossed the divide to hold her hand gently, assuring her than the healing process was well on its way. She had already done the most important part of the work. The woman received an acupuncture treatment and was given an herbal formula. The next week the woman revealed that she had contacted her friend and told him that she could no longer communicate with him, the next day she told her husband about the " affair " and he was upset but compassionate. She was already feeling better than she had felt in a long time. After about a month the patient, although she continued to come for " tune-ups " was feeling better than she had felt in over ten years with a renewed marriage and outlook on life. OK, So the first case is from when I was an apprentice with Michael Tierra. Michael is an exceptional clinician. He doesn't know the classics like many people I know and sometimes his ideas are, well let's just say unorthodox, but I spent nearly three years working with him in his clinic (with two year before that at his school) and saw more people healed in more ways than I could possibly describe in one email. The second case is from my own clinical practice. I learned a lot about clinical practice from Michael and had the unique experience of going to CM school after being licensed in the state of California through my apprenticeship with Michael. I realized through that experience that students are not really taught how to be healers in school, they are taught how to be clinicians, and even that is, IMHO, a questionable assertion. Learning the skills of observation of all the aspects of a person, their personality, their voice, expressions, etc is a skill that comes with hours and hours and hours of OBSERVATION of skilled practitioners. I feel very fortunate to have had the opportunity to observe Michael and several other skilled practitioners while studying in Santa Cruz, CA. I am (and my patients and students are, whether they know it or not) forever indebted to these teachers. I have personally taken to studying the language of Chinese (as well as the literature and cultural context from which Chinese medicine has evolved) and moved to China to focus on that and studying with teachers here. But that is my personal path. I have also recently published a book that was inspired by my work with Michael. It is most definitely an " out of the box " look and I, frankly and unashamedly, think it is really great. It is very hard for me to say I would put myself in either the traditionalists camp a la Bob Flaws, Jason B., Z'ev, et al, or the " rebel " (sorry I don't know what to call it) a la Michael Tierra and perhaps Alon, et al. I like having one foot in each camp, I like crossing the tracks and spending time with anyone I think may have valuable teachings. I am not sure either is better than the other, only different. I agree with both camps' arguments and I'm willing to accept them as both being correct, just like the wen bing folks accept the shang han lun folks and vice versa, they are just two sides of the same coin, in my humble opinion! Well, this has gotten really long, I hope it is helpful in some way to at least one person on this list. Well that's my 2 mao. Thomas P.S. For those who may look at my website, I apologize that I have been unable to update it, I do not have access to it from China and for some reason have been unsuccessful in getting someone, there in the US, to help me rebuild it...any takers? Beijing, China Author of Western Herbs According to Traditional : A Practitioners Guide www.sourcepointherbs.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2008 Report Share Posted February 25, 2008 Well said, Thomas. - Bill , wrote: > > All, > > I am inspired by the story of Dr. Shen's migraine diagnosis to tell two short stories. > > A woman entered the treatment room complaining to multiple health issues. She had severe " menopausal " symptoms including depression, insomnia, headaches, etc. After a long interview of about 30-40 minutes, the practitioner asked the patient about her home life, had she been divorced? She said yes. The practitioner asked if she had been able to find resolution regarding the divorce. She said yes with her voice but no with every other part of her body. At this point the practitioner launched into a series of pointed questions without allowing the patient to respond with anymore than a very brief answer before asking another question or making a statement about how the patient needed to accept this shift in her life. That this transition was intimately related to the transition of menopause and her inability to accept is was the reason she was struggling. After about 5 minutes of this the patient began to get very upset (as did her son who was there " as support " ). The > practitioner was unwavering in his attempt to show the woman that this was, in fact, the cause of her illness. Within another five minutes or so the patient and her son, being very angry that they were not getting the treatment they had come for stormed out of the clinic very angry. Approximately one year later a letter come to the clinic from the woman. In it she explained that over time she had realized that the practitioner was correct and sought out a counselor, within a brief time all of her physical symptoms disappeared and she was feeling better than she had felt in years. > NOTE: the details of this case may be somewhat inaccurate as it was some 13-14 years ago, but the spirit of the example is intact. > > A woman entered the exam room for the first time complaining of fatigue, sleeplessness, metal exhaustion, and vaginal dryness. After a short interview the practitioner asked about her married life. She said she was happily married for nearly 20 years. The practitioner asked had she ever " cheated " on her husband. The woman became visibly uncomfortable and at first answered " no, " but quickly rebutted her statement with a surprised " yes. " She explained that about 10 years ago she had meant a man while on a business trip and they had spent some time together. They had not had " sexual relations " but they had kept up an intimate personal relationship, talking on the phone occasionally and meeting at least once a year. It was more than a friendship, she admitted, but it was also something that she could never had told her husband because of the nature of the relationship. The practitioner asked some questions, digging into the nature of her feelings around this and how it might be > affected her health while examining her pulse. After about 10 minutes the woman began to cry. The practitioner allowed her to cry for a bit then crossed the divide to hold her hand gently, assuring her than the healing process was well on its way. She had already done the most important part of the work. The woman received an acupuncture treatment and was given an herbal formula. The next week the woman revealed that she had contacted her friend and told him that she could no longer communicate with him, the next day she told her husband about the " affair " and he was upset but compassionate. She was already feeling better than she had felt in a long time. After about a month the patient, although she continued to come for " tune-ups " was feeling better than she had felt in over ten years with a renewed marriage and outlook on life. > > OK, So the first case is from when I was an apprentice with Michael Tierra. Michael is an exceptional clinician. He doesn't know the classics like many people I know and sometimes his ideas are, well let's just say unorthodox, but I spent nearly three years working with him in his clinic (with two year before that at his school) and saw more people healed in more ways than I could possibly describe in one email. > The second case is from my own clinical practice. I learned a lot about clinical practice from Michael and had the unique experience of going to CM school after being licensed in the state of California through my apprenticeship with Michael. I realized through that experience that students are not really taught how to be healers in school, they are taught how to be clinicians, and even that is, IMHO, a questionable assertion. Learning the skills of observation of all the aspects of a person, their personality, their voice, expressions, etc is a skill that comes with hours and hours and hours of OBSERVATION of skilled practitioners. I feel very fortunate to have had the opportunity to observe Michael and several other skilled practitioners while studying in Santa Cruz, CA. I am (and my patients and students are, whether they know it or not) forever indebted to these teachers. > I have personally taken to studying the language of Chinese (as well as the literature and cultural context from which Chinese medicine has evolved) and moved to China to focus on that and studying with teachers here. But that is my personal path. I have also recently published a book that was inspired by my work with Michael. It is most definitely an " out of the box " look and I, frankly and unashamedly, think it is really great. It is very hard for me to say I would put myself in either the traditionalists camp a la Bob Flaws, Jason B., Z'ev, et al, or the " rebel " (sorry I don't know what to call it) a la Michael Tierra and perhaps Alon, et al. I like having one foot in each camp, I like crossing the tracks and spending time with anyone I think may have valuable teachings. I am not sure either is better than the other, only different. I agree with both camps' arguments and I'm willing to accept them as both being correct, just like the wen bing folks accept the shang han > lun folks and vice versa, they are just two sides of the same coin, in my humble opinion! > > Well, this has gotten really long, I hope it is helpful in some way to at least one person on this list. > > Well that's my 2 mao. > Thomas > P.S. For those who may look at my website, I apologize that I have been unable to update it, I do not have access to it from China and for some reason have been unsuccessful in getting someone, there in the US, to help me rebuild it...any takers? > > > > Beijing, China > Author of Western Herbs According to Traditional : A Practitioners Guide > > www.sourcepointherbs.org > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2008 Report Share Posted February 26, 2008 Thomas, Thanks for presenting these cases, although I am having a hard time understanding the point of these cases (especially the first.) In the first, we see a practitioner who chases away a patient because of possibly bad communication skills. The fact that her physical symptoms resolved through Western psycho-therapy at a later date means very little to me. Does this case merely show that this patient just " needed " counseling to resolve her symptoms? Did it show that all her symptoms are in her " mind? " Although we cannot deny that counseling helped her, what is the take away message here? And what does this have to do with CM? As we know, Chinese medicine already has a model for many of these situations. CM makes little distinction between the mind and body, acknowledging that emotions (and life situations) and physical complaints are connected, we have options in such situations. Treat what we see (i.e. the pattern)! On one hand this case demonstrates this connection (mind leading to physical symptoms), it however misses the point that we have the ability to treat the mind through our medicine and through the body. We do not have to rely on talk-therapy. Once the symptoms manifest in the body (from stress /mind etc) according to most schools of thought within CM, it is then one unit and can then be treated as such. We do not need to separate out the components. My sample case: A menopausal woman comes in with all sorts of physical complaints. She mentions she is stuck in a horrible marriage, hasn't talked to her daughter for years, as well as many other " life " complaints. I noticed she had Liver qi stagnation with yin deficiency. I treat this pattern and within a month or so, no joke, she left her husband, got a new job, talked to her daughter etc. She was happy and symptom free. (Actually I find this type of situation happens very often, treat the internal disharmony and the life starts to get in order). Of course counseling could have helped, as well as many other types of therapies, but I used what I knew, CM, and I did not have my patient storm out the door. Westerners like that we listen to their problems. Some of us get more involved in this process than others. Although this can be therapeutic, this counseling is however, not our primary treatment modality. IMO, if this western physcotherapy interests you, study it and do it, and do not do it half-ass and chase your patients out the door. There are many therapies that heal people. Bob, Z'ev, or myself, will not deny this. I don't think anyone is denying the utility of integration of modalities into one's practice. If tuning forks float your boat than study it and do it well! However, do not call this ancient CM. Furthermore, if one gets into forks because they just like them then cool, but if they get into them because they think CM can't treat these certain (i.e. emotional) problems, then this is a different issue. It may be true, but our point is, one must actually study CM deeply to have an informed opinion. - _____ On Behalf Of Monday, February 25, 2008 6:58 PM clinical skill vs. academic prowess All, I am inspired by the story of Dr. Shen's migraine diagnosis to tell two short stories. A woman entered the treatment room complaining to multiple health issues. She had severe " menopausal " symptoms including depression, insomnia, headaches, etc. After a long interview of about 30-40 minutes, the practitioner asked the patient about her home life, had she been divorced? She said yes. The practitioner asked if she had been able to find resolution regarding the divorce. She said yes with her voice but no with every other part of her body. At this point the practitioner launched into a series of pointed questions without allowing the patient to respond with anymore than a very brief answer before asking another question or making a statement about how the patient needed to accept this shift in her life. That this transition was intimately related to the transition of menopause and her inability to accept is was the reason she was struggling. After about 5 minutes of this the patient began to get very upset (as did her son who was there " as support " ). The practitioner was unwavering in his attempt to show the woman that this was, in fact, the cause of her illness. Within another five minutes or so the patient and her son, being very angry that they were not getting the treatment they had come for stormed out of the clinic very angry. Approximately one year later a letter come to the clinic from the woman. In it she explained that over time she had realized that the practitioner was correct and sought out a counselor, within a brief time all of her physical symptoms disappeared and she was feeling better than she had felt in years. NOTE: the details of this case may be somewhat inaccurate as it was some 13-14 years ago, but the spirit of the example is intact. A woman entered the exam room for the first time complaining of fatigue, sleeplessness, metal exhaustion, and vaginal dryness. After a short interview the practitioner asked about her married life. She said she was happily married for nearly 20 years. The practitioner asked had she ever " cheated " on her husband. The woman became visibly uncomfortable and at first answered " no, " but quickly rebutted her statement with a surprised " yes. " She explained that about 10 years ago she had meant a man while on a business trip and they had spent some time together. They had not had " sexual relations " but they had kept up an intimate personal relationship, talking on the phone occasionally and meeting at least once a year. It was more than a friendship, she admitted, but it was also something that she could never had told her husband because of the nature of the relationship. The practitioner asked some questions, digging into the nature of her feelings around this and how it might be affected her health while examining her pulse. After about 10 minutes the woman began to cry. The practitioner allowed her to cry for a bit then crossed the divide to hold her hand gently, assuring her than the healing process was well on its way. She had already done the most important part of the work. The woman received an acupuncture treatment and was given an herbal formula. The next week the woman revealed that she had contacted her friend and told him that she could no longer communicate with him, the next day she told her husband about the " affair " and he was upset but compassionate. She was already feeling better than she had felt in a long time. After about a month the patient, although she continued to come for " tune-ups " was feeling better than she had felt in over ten years with a renewed marriage and outlook on life. OK, So the first case is from when I was an apprentice with Michael Tierra. Michael is an exceptional clinician. He doesn't know the classics like many people I know and sometimes his ideas are, well let's just say unorthodox, but I spent nearly three years working with him in his clinic (with two year before that at his school) and saw more people healed in more ways than I could possibly describe in one email. The second case is from my own clinical practice. I learned a lot about clinical practice from Michael and had the unique experience of going to CM school after being licensed in the state of California through my apprenticeship with Michael. I realized through that experience that students are not really taught how to be healers in school, they are taught how to be clinicians, and even that is, IMHO, a questionable assertion. Learning the skills of observation of all the aspects of a person, their personality, their voice, expressions, etc is a skill that comes with hours and hours and hours of OBSERVATION of skilled practitioners. I feel very fortunate to have had the opportunity to observe Michael and several other skilled practitioners while studying in Santa Cruz, CA. I am (and my patients and students are, whether they know it or not) forever indebted to these teachers. I have personally taken to studying the language of Chinese (as well as the literature and cultural context from which Chinese medicine has evolved) and moved to China to focus on that and studying with teachers here. But that is my personal path. I have also recently published a book that was inspired by my work with Michael. It is most definitely an " out of the box " look and I, frankly and unashamedly, think it is really great. It is very hard for me to say I would put myself in either the traditionalists camp a la Bob Flaws, Jason B., Z'ev, et al, or the " rebel " (sorry I don't know what to call it) a la Michael Tierra and perhaps Alon, et al. I like having one foot in each camp, I like crossing the tracks and spending time with anyone I think may have valuable teachings. I am not sure either is better than the other, only different. I agree with both camps' arguments and I'm willing to accept them as both being correct, just like the wen bing folks accept the shang han lun folks and vice versa, they are just two sides of the same coin, in my humble opinion! Well, this has gotten really long, I hope it is helpful in some way to at least one person on this list. Well that's my 2 mao. Thomas P.S. For those who may look at my website, I apologize that I have been unable to update it, I do not have access to it from China and for some reason have been unsuccessful in getting someone, there in the US, to help me rebuild it...any takers? Beijing, China Author of Western Herbs According to Traditional : A Practitioners Guide thomas@sourcepointh <thomas%40sourcepointherbs.org> erbs.org www.sourcepointherbs.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2008 Report Share Posted February 26, 2008 Jason, I don't think that Thomas was suggesting that chasing a patient out the door is an example of good practice skills. His point was that there are certain innate skills, along with experience, that play an important role in the successful practice of medicine. - Bill , " " wrote: > > Thomas, > > > > Thanks for presenting these cases, although I am having a hard time > understanding the point of these cases (especially the first.) > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2008 Report Share Posted February 26, 2008 Bill, I do not think anyone denies that innate skills, experience etc. aid one's ability to practice medicine. Everyone understands the power of good bedside manner. I hope everyone here understands that many things factor into the healing process. This is precisely why Bob says acupuncture has saved our herbal profession's butts. However, I am unsure how this case demonstrates anything profound. Its presentation must have some purpose, therefore what was it? My post is merely analyzing the message behind the case. My analysis presents a few issues that we must deal with a profession. Only one of which is, how do we treat physcho-emotional problems. If you have a different interpretation of the case, and the message behind it, please present it. I don't think Thomas's point was how not to handle such a case, or was it? -Jason _____ On Behalf Of bill_schoenbart Tuesday, February 26, 2008 7:52 AM Re: clinical skill vs. academic prowess Jason, I don't think that Thomas was suggesting that chasing a patient out the door is an example of good practice skills. His point was that there are certain innate skills, along with experience, that play an important role in the successful practice of medicine. - Bill @ <%40> , " " wrote: > > Thomas, > > > > Thanks for presenting these cases, although I am having a hard time > understanding the point of these cases (especially the first.) > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2008 Report Share Posted February 26, 2008 Aside form his point about non-academic skills, he was supporting Micheal, his old mentor. Nothing wrong with that. , " " wrote: > > Bill, > > > > I do not think anyone denies that innate skills, experience etc. aid one's > ability to practice medicine. Everyone understands the power of good bedside > manner. I hope everyone here understands that many things factor into the > healing process. This is precisely why Bob says acupuncture has saved our > herbal profession's butts. However, I am unsure how this case demonstrates > anything profound. Its presentation must have some purpose, therefore what > was it? My post is merely analyzing the message behind the case. My analysis > presents a few issues that we must deal with a profession. Only one of which > is, how do we treat physcho-emotional problems. > > > > If you have a different interpretation of the case, and the message behind > it, please present it. I don't think Thomas's point was how not to handle > such a case, or was it? > > > > -Jason > > > > _____ > > > On Behalf Of bill_schoenbart > Tuesday, February 26, 2008 7:52 AM > > Re: clinical skill vs. academic prowess > > > > Jason, > > I don't think that Thomas was suggesting that chasing a patient out > the door is an example of good practice skills. His point was that > there are certain innate skills, along with experience, that play an > important role in the successful practice of medicine. > > - Bill > > @ <%40> > , " " > <@> wrote: > > > > Thomas, > > > > > > > > Thanks for presenting these cases, although I am having a hard time > > understanding the point of these cases (especially the first.) > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2008 Report Share Posted February 26, 2008 All, I enjoyed reading Thomas's stories. What I drew out of them is that a good clinician knows when to offer herbal/ acupuncture treatment and when not to. Knowing how to properly use the tools in the toolbox means knowing when to not use them as well. It also means knowing that our tool box is not limited to just those approaches. I am reminded of a story that my first chinese medicine fundamentals teacher shared with us (who was chinese, trained in china, and very well respected). He said that in ancient china there was a king who had become quite distraught because his wife, the queen, was was not eating. The King did not know what to do. Many of the local physicians tried to help, but nothing seemed to work. Then he heard of a famous physician living in another village and invited him to come to his palace. When the famous Doctor came and analyzed the queen, he told the King in private that he thought he could help his wife but that he had to totally trust the doctor with his methods. Becuase of the Doctors great reputation the king agreed. So the doctor began his treatment, which consited of yelling absurdities at the Queen and throwing all kinds of rotten food and animal excrement at her. She became very anger and yelled for the guards to take him away. The doctor ran from the palace, but the guards left him alone, as per the previous arrangement with the king. Once the Queen started to settle down from her rage, she became very hunger and began eating again. She remanined this way ever after. Obviously this is a story about the emotional aspects of the five elements and how they affect the physical. I cannot read chinese so I am not sure if this story exists in the classics, or if my teacher just made it up. It was passed to me by a very reputable chinese doctor, so I am assuming there must be some weight to it. Although I wouldn't apply the same technique in our present modern society, it does point out that the main part of Chinese medicine, for me, is the diagnosis. Treatment options are vast and our tool box is bigger than just the use of herbs or acupuncture or diet therapy. I do believe that the doctors of past had good skill with, want may seem eccentric and odd, counselling skills. Trevor , " " wrote: > > Bill, > > > > I do not think anyone denies that innate skills, experience etc. aid one's > ability to practice medicine. Everyone understands the power of good bedside > manner. I hope everyone here understands that many things factor into the > healing process. This is precisely why Bob says acupuncture has saved our > herbal profession's butts. However, I am unsure how this case demonstrates > anything profound. Its presentation must have some purpose, therefore what > was it? My post is merely analyzing the message behind the case. My analysis > presents a few issues that we must deal with a profession. Only one of which > is, how do we treat physcho-emotional problems. > > > > If you have a different interpretation of the case, and the message behind > it, please present it. I don't think Thomas's point was how not to handle > such a case, or was it? > > > > -Jason > > > > _____ > > > On Behalf Of bill_schoenbart > Tuesday, February 26, 2008 7:52 AM > > Re: clinical skill vs. academic prowess > > > > Jason, > > I don't think that Thomas was suggesting that chasing a patient out > the door is an example of good practice skills. His point was that > there are certain innate skills, along with experience, that play an > important role in the successful practice of medicine. > > - Bill > > @ <% 40> > , " " > <@> wrote: > > > > Thomas, > > > > > > > > Thanks for presenting these cases, although I am having a hard time > > understanding the point of these cases (especially the first.) > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2008 Report Share Posted February 26, 2008 Bill, You are right nothing wrong what that, although I just can't figure out how the case study is relevant and supports his POV. -Jason _____ On Behalf Of bill_schoenbart Tuesday, February 26, 2008 9:09 AM Re: clinical skill vs. academic prowess Aside form his point about non-academic skills, he was supporting Micheal, his old mentor. Nothing wrong with that. @ <%40> , " " wrote: > > Bill, > > > > I do not think anyone denies that innate skills, experience etc. aid one's > ability to practice medicine. Everyone understands the power of good bedside > manner. I hope everyone here understands that many things factor into the > healing process. This is precisely why Bob says acupuncture has saved our > herbal profession's butts. However, I am unsure how this case demonstrates > anything profound. Its presentation must have some purpose, therefore what > was it? My post is merely analyzing the message behind the case. My analysis > presents a few issues that we must deal with a profession. Only one of which > is, how do we treat physcho-emotional problems. > > > > If you have a different interpretation of the case, and the message behind > it, please present it. I don't think Thomas's point was how not to handle > such a case, or was it? > > > > -Jason > > > > _____ > > @ <%40> > [@ <%40> ] On Behalf Of bill_schoenbart > Tuesday, February 26, 2008 7:52 AM > @ <%40> > Re: clinical skill vs. academic prowess > > > > Jason, > > I don't think that Thomas was suggesting that chasing a patient out > the door is an example of good practice skills. His point was that > there are certain innate skills, along with experience, that play an > important role in the successful practice of medicine. > > - Bill > > @ <%40> > , " " > <@> wrote: > > > > Thomas, > > > > > > > > Thanks for presenting these cases, although I am having a hard time > > understanding the point of these cases (especially the first.) > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2008 Report Share Posted February 26, 2008 Jason, Regarding you comments below. First, I think you are incorrect in your assertion that " counseling " is not our " primary " treatment modality. What I have learned working with an old-school herbalist here is, that it is, in fact, a large part of what CM is, not counseling per se but understanding the human condition, which is what I was attempting to demonstrate with the cases I presented. Counseling, perhaps not...but that is not what I was putting forth. I suggest you reread the cases and try to remove your judgment. I am saddened that you see this in a different light as I am quite sure that others on this list would disagree. I will let them pipe up if they see fit. Thomas Westerners like that we listen to their problems. Some of us get more involved in this process than others. Although this can be therapeutic, this counseling is however, not our primary treatment modality. IMO, if this western physcotherapy interests you, study it and do it, and do not do it half-ass and chase your patients out the door. Beijing, China Author of Western Herbs According to Traditional : A Practitioners Guide www.sourcepointherbs.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2008 Report Share Posted February 26, 2008 Thomas, I would have to agree with you here. I tried to say in my last post that from my understanding, counseling is a big part of classical Chinese as I have been taught. Part of treating well is knowing what to prescribe, in what form, and when. From what I have learned thus far in my short career, good listening skills are critical for a good outcome, and I do not feel 100% comfortable with prescribing herbs to just everyone. I think the stories you mentioned were marvelous and really brought out the importance of, as I already said, what treatment to prescribe and when- meaning sometimes herbs may not be the best choice. In my short TCM career (3years out of college), I now see upwards of 60 people a week- 10-12 a day. I am expecting to get even busier as I am offering a skin clinic that will be herbal consult only, no acupuncture, meaning I may go up to 75 or 80 people a week. I have trained with some of the best Chinese medical practitioners in their respected fields, and I try my best to practice as I have been taught in accordance with pure CM principles. But I must say that the most important part I think I bring to the clinical setting is the idea of narrative medicine. By truly listening to the patients story, I develop trust, confidence, and compliance to treatment. In an earlier post people complained of patients not sticking it out past 1 to 3 weeks without change. I have to admit that I rarely have this problem. Most of my patients are very willing to go the long haul. I listen and I counsel and in my head and on paper I do my pattern diferentation and I get results. When I was in school my Gyno teacher, Dr Ling Xia once told me that in her practice in the chinese hospital she felt that the doctors were often times too rough. For example, when a woman came in to have an abortion, the doctor would scold her saying, " It is all your fault for being such a slut! " Obviously very rude and lacking proper bed side manner. She said she would get in trouble herself from the other docs because her style was a lot gentler. Anyways, in my clinical practice I felt very honored when Ling Xia came to me and said that she thought I would become a great doctor because I too brought a compasionate, listening quality to the student clinic. I am not meaning to gloat here, as I know many people also bring this to their practice, all I am trying to point out is the importance of listening and good counseling skill. For me it is crucial and I have never found it to inhibit my practice of Chinese medicine as I have been taught. On the contrary I think it has improved my clinical efficacy and has allowed me to truly understand my patients pattern, etiology, and prognosis a lot better. Just my 2 canadian cents, Trevor , wrote: > > Jason, > > Regarding you comments below. First, I think you are incorrect in your assertion that " counseling " is not our " primary " treatment modality. What I have learned working with an old-school herbalist here is, that it is, in fact, a large part of what CM is, not counseling per se but understanding the human condition, which is what I was attempting to demonstrate with the cases I presented. Counseling, perhaps not...but that is not what I was putting forth. I suggest you reread the cases and try to remove your judgment. > > I am saddened that you see this in a different light as I am quite sure that others on this list would disagree. I will let them pipe up if they see fit. > > Thomas > > Westerners like that we listen to their problems. Some of us get more > involved in this process than others. Although this can be therapeutic, this > counseling is however, not our primary treatment modality. IMO, if this > western physcotherapy interests you, study it and do it, and do not do it > half-ass and chase your patients out the door. > > > > Beijing, China > Author of Western Herbs According to Traditional : A Practitioners Guide > > www.sourcepointherbs.org > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2008 Report Share Posted February 26, 2008 Jason, Ok, let me break it down for you. First, I want to say that I think what Trevor said was a keen insight into what I was attempting to convey to the group. Also, Michael is and has been someone I have a very deep respect for as a teacher and practitioner. He is old school, you know the " school of hard knocks. " (and btw, an exceptional pianist as is his son). You are, well frankly not old enough nor experienced enough to know the difference. Your pedantic attitude is coarse and doesn't jive with how you present yourself on your own website. Ok, so I hope that wasn't so insulting that I get in trouble but I feel it needed to be said. The point of my stories is that, as Trevor pointed out, there is, as my grandfather would say, " more than one way to skin a cat. " What this means is not that we should continue to search out new ways but that we should be open to the reality that there are, in fact, many ways to approach healing. Did the practitioner do an effective job at communicating to the first patient what needed to be done. Well, let me tell you, since I was there, I believe he could have done a better job, however I also know that the patient was very resistant to hear what she obviously needed to hear. And, frankly sometimes, perhaps, people just need to be told straight up what the problem is, allowing them to decide if they are willing or able to deal with it. (Also, I think it is important to recognize that we can't help everyone and sometimes the best we can do is give it our best shot and let " fate " do the rest.) Is this my approach, no! Have I used this approach, yes! Was it effective, somethings yes, sometimes no. I wonder if some of the other more experienced practitioners on this list have had similar experiences...anyone? Now, my experience is hardly vast, I started working as an herbalist in the early 1990's and then went on to get my acu license in 1997. I have worked full-time as a practitioner for more than half of that time and taught for two years in Hawai'i, both in the classroom and the clinic. So, with about 15 years of experience, what I have noticed is that most Americans want and need to be heard. I find that most chronic diseases, which is what I focus on, have a large component of emotional/spiritual connection and that using these " other tools " is invaluable, in fact I think I would feel quite naked without them. I strongly believe that the white-washing of this aspect of CM since the 1950's is on par with the AMA take-over of medicine in the US after WWI, indeed a great crime to humanity. My current teacher is retired from the hospital and now prefers to do house calls. He will only treat those that are willing to do the work needed. He says he prefers to do house calls because of the vast amount of information he gains from seeing the way the person lives. He doesn't believe that one must talk for long periods of time, but I think there is a cultural context that is different when we are talking about American vs. Chinese patients. His therapies are often multi-pronged, but I will reserve expounding on this at the moment because I haven't worked with him for very long and it would be tangential to this discussion. If you only want to use CM, I suggest you change your website, dig in and stop judging people for what they do. If you want to focus on ganmao, great, it might be desperately needed soon if there is another flu epidemic. And, if that is what you are focusing on then I would agree with your assertion that you only need CM, as this is generally quite simple to treat. As for me, I prefer to dig into the depths of peoples lives with compassion and empathy in hopes to creating positive and long lasting change, and frankly I don't even like to treat acute problems unless it is for a current patient. Well, that's all I've got to say for now. I trust this will go on for some time and I am more than willing to keep fielding your questions or searches for clarification, but I will be leaving in about a week for Yunnan to do some ethnobotany research, so after that I will have only scant internet access until I return to Beijing in April. So, step up the bar, let's have a beer and hammer it out, unfortunately (for me) you will be able to enjoy a much more tasty beer than I have access to here. In Good Health, Thomas Beijing, China Author of Western Herbs According to Traditional : A Practitioners Guide www.sourcepointherbs.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2008 Report Share Posted February 27, 2008 Thomas, Thanks for your comments, please understand that my previous statements were never intended as personal attacks, and only for the betterment of the medicine. I also regret the fact that you feel the need to judge me and my experience, and make slanderous comments, without ever meeting me. Once again, I in no way feel, or have said, that anyone should ONLY practice CM, maybe my point has been missed. My practice and website are accurate in what I have said and believe in my practice. Apart from a wide range of influences in CM from classical to modern, I also practice functional medicine, naturopathic medicine, and on occasion, yes " counseling. " If my previous posts on this topic are not clear I will be happy to clarify. As far as counseling, of course I agree that " understanding the human condition " is part of our job. However, this is much different than the way we were using the term previously, i.e. similar western psychotherapy. As you mentioned in your case the patient went and sought out counseling (from someone other than the original practitioner.) That being said, I find there is little support in the literature (modern and classical) or from my experience observing many doctors in China, Taiwan, or the US, that support that this " counseling " aspect is the " primary " treatment modality in CM practice. I think you are twisting my words... So that it is clear, counseling may be useful, but that is a separate issue. There will always be exceptions and wild " counseling " stories, but that does not make it correct... Finally, I also have deep respect for Michael, but that does not make him or anyone exempt from critical evaluation and analysis. If we cannot disagree and question others methods and ideas, how can we advance the medicine in this country? There is a lot of crap in both China and US that should be sorted through. Please don't take things so personal. -Jason P.s. I will be in China in April, for that Beer.. , wrote: > > Jason, > > Ok, let me break it down for you. First, I want to say that I think what Trevor said was a keen insight into what I was attempting to convey to the group. Also, Michael is and has been someone I have a very deep respect for as a teacher and practitioner. He is old school, you know the " school of hard knocks. " (and btw, an exceptional pianist as is his son). You are, well frankly not old enough nor experienced enough to know the difference. Your pedantic attitude is coarse and doesn't jive with how you present yourself on your own website. > > Ok, so I hope that wasn't so insulting that I get in trouble but I feel it needed to be said. > > The point of my stories is that, as Trevor pointed out, there is, as my grandfather would say, " more than one way to skin a cat. " What this means is not that we should continue to search out new ways but that we should be open to the reality that there are, in fact, many ways to approach healing. Did the practitioner do an effective job at communicating to the first patient what needed to be done. Well, let me tell you, since I was there, I believe he could have done a better job, however I also know that the patient was very resistant to hear what she obviously needed to hear. And, frankly sometimes, perhaps, people just need to be told straight up what the problem is, allowing them to decide if they are willing or able to deal with it. (Also, I think it is important to recognize that we can't help everyone and sometimes the best we can do is give it our best shot and let " fate " do the rest.) Is this my approach, no! Have I used this approach, yes! Was it effective, > somethings yes, sometimes no. I wonder if some of the other more experienced practitioners on this list have had similar experiences...anyone? > > Now, my experience is hardly vast, I started working as an herbalist in the early 1990's and then went on to get my acu license in 1997. I have worked full-time as a practitioner for more than half of that time and taught for two years in Hawai'i, both in the classroom and the clinic. So, with about 15 years of experience, what I have noticed is that most Americans want and need to be heard. I find that most chronic diseases, which is what I focus on, have a large component of emotional/spiritual connection and that using these " other tools " is invaluable, in fact I think I would feel quite naked without them. I strongly believe that the white-washing of this aspect of CM since the 1950's is on par with the AMA take-over of medicine in the US after WWI, indeed a great crime to humanity. My current teacher is retired from the hospital and now prefers to do house calls. He will only treat those that are willing to do the work needed. He says he prefers to do house calls > because of the vast amount of information he gains from seeing the way the person lives. He doesn't believe that one must talk for long periods of time, but I think there is a cultural context that is different when we are talking about American vs. Chinese patients. His therapies are often multi-pronged, but I will reserve expounding on this at the moment because I haven't worked with him for very long and it would be tangential to this discussion. > > If you only want to use CM, I suggest you change your website, dig in and stop judging people for what they do. If you want to focus on ganmao, great, it might be desperately needed soon if there is another flu epidemic. And, if that is what you are focusing on then I would agree with your assertion that you only need CM, as this is generally quite simple to treat. As for me, I prefer to dig into the depths of peoples lives with compassion and empathy in hopes to creating positive and long lasting change, and frankly I don't even like to treat acute problems unless it is for a current patient. > > Well, that's all I've got to say for now. I trust this will go on for some time and I am more than willing to keep fielding your questions or searches for clarification, but I will be leaving in about a week for Yunnan to do some ethnobotany research, so after that I will have only scant internet access until I return to Beijing in April. So, step up the bar, let's have a beer and hammer it out, unfortunately (for me) you will be able to enjoy a much more tasty beer than I have access to here. > > In Good Health, > Thomas > > > > Beijing, China > Author of Western Herbs According to Traditional : A Practitioners Guide > > www.sourcepointherbs.org > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2008 Report Share Posted February 27, 2008 On Behalf Of ..I also practice functional medicine, naturopathic medicine, and on occasion, yes " counseling. " If my previous posts on this topic are not clear I will be happy to clarify. I am surprised by your stating that you practice naturopathic medicine, Jason. I get annoyed with naturopaths that say they practice TCM with little training, so it seems the opposite should also be true. Sitting through a bunch of Jeff Bland seminars and saying you do functional medicine is one thing, but saying you practice a whole system like naturopathic medicine seems incongruous to your statements regarding depth of study in Chinese medicine. Respectfully, Sean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2008 Report Share Posted February 27, 2008 Sean, I have studied naturopathic and functional medicine for over 15 years, and have a four year degree in Alternative medicine (prior to TCM school) that focused mainly on such Western therapies. Granted I feel I am much better at CM and enjoy it much more, I feel that such a claim is not a stretch, especially since to this day, I spend sometimes hours a day researching and studying the subject. I do think that there is a lot to learn in both subjects and far from claiming mastery in any of them. (Hopefully not to offend anyone) but my experience is that naturopathic medicine (theory) has no where near the depth of CM. Its theory is primarily based on Western medicine and not that difficult if one understands Western physiology and pathology. Their therapies are much more straightforward as compared to CM. This is just my opinion and why I now spend the majority of my time in CM. For such reasons it is not my primary therapy. I only stated that I practice these other modalities to demonstrate that I am open to someone practicing multiple modalities. Finally one's ability to practice (or claim to practice) is directly related to experience and study. I feel I can hold my own in CM or the other therapies I mentioned. Not that it proves anything, but I have put more time in than you can shake a stick at. My learning includes much more than a few J. Bland seminars (which BTW I have never attended.) If you want to go after someone, go after those mail order schools that are pumping out " naturopathic degrees " left and right. At least they were 15 years ago. Finally, maybe I should have more accurately stated I practice " aspects of naturopathic and functional medicine. " I in no way embrace all of their ideas and philosophies. hence why I went into CM. -Jason > ---- > Sean Doherty <sean > RE: Re: clinical skill vs. academic prowess > 28 Feb '08 00:43 > > [LINK: %40] > > [[LINK: %40] > ] On Behalf Of > .I also practice functional medicine, naturopathic medicine, and on > occasion, > yes " counseling. " If my previous posts on this topic are not clear I > will be happy to clarify. > > I am surprised by your stating that you practice naturopathic medicine, > Jason. I get annoyed with naturopaths that say they practice TCM with > little > training, so it seems the opposite should also be true. Sitting through a > bunch of Jeff Bland seminars and saying you do functional medicine is one > thing, but saying you practice a whole system like naturopathic medicine > seems incongruous to your statements regarding depth of study in Chinese > medicine. > > Respectfully, > > Sean > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2008 Report Share Posted February 27, 2008 Sean, I wanted to say one further thing about your last statement. One of the best and most knowledgeable Western CM practitioners and lectures I have met is Dan Bensky. His depth is self-evident. He also happens to be at the top of his field in Osteopathic medicine. Clearly one can practice multiple systems deeply. My point has always been if you are going to learn something learn it deeply. It really depends on how much time and energy you have towards such pursuits. Therefore while still acknowledging the immense depth I still have to uncover, I do not feel that I short my pursuits by any means, therefore I stand by my previous statements in regard to depth. My issue has always been when someone superficially studies something and then starts integrating it with something else. I feel they may come up with brilliance, but there is a good chance that they are creating incorrect correlations. That is why I vote for peer review. Others? - > ---- > Sean Doherty <sean > RE: Re: clinical skill vs. academic prowess > 28 Feb '08 00:43 > > [LINK: %40] > > [[LINK: %40] > ] On Behalf Of > .I also practice functional medicine, naturopathic medicine, and on > occasion, > yes " counseling. " If my previous posts on this topic are not clear I > will be happy to clarify. > > I am surprised by your stating that you practice naturopathic medicine, > Jason. I get annoyed with naturopaths that say they practice TCM with > little > training, so it seems the opposite should also be true. Sitting through a > bunch of Jeff Bland seminars and saying you do functional medicine is one > thing, but saying you practice a whole system like naturopathic medicine > seems incongruous to your statements regarding depth of study in Chinese > medicine. > > Respectfully, > > Sean > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2008 Report Share Posted February 28, 2008 In his new book " healthy revolution " David Brady, professor of Naturopathy at the accredited university of Bridgeport states that graduates of the 4 accredited US or 2 Canadian naturopathy schools should call themselves Naturopathic " Doctors " while others who trained elsewhere should use the term " naturopaths " . The issue is complicated, but boils down to the fact that there are far more naturopaths trained by " nonaccredited " methods (e.g. the well respected Linda Page); efforts to legislatively create licensure are blocked by these other naturopaths b/c they would lose their right to practice. Their sheer numbers have proved to be an effective blockade. Ultimately Jason's amended comment that he practices " aspects of naturopathic and functional medicine " sits much better with me personally. I too get a little frustrated with those who put the time in at NCNM or Bastyr are lumped together with the Clayton College crowd. Lastly, Jeff Bland and IFM's symposia cost $3500 ($2500 for LAc). You can buy the notes and audio for around $300. I'm not surprised Jason hasn't gone to a Jeff bland seminar... -Tim Sharpe Acupuncturist and fellow long-time studier of " aspects " of naturopathic and functional medicine Sean Doherty Wednesday, February 27, 2008 7:44 PM I am surprised by your stating that you practice naturopathic medicine, Jason. I get annoyed with naturopaths that say they practice TCM with little training, so it seems the opposite should also be true. Sitting through a bunch of Jeff Bland seminars and saying you do functional medicine is one thing, but saying you practice a whole system like naturopathic medicine seems incongruous to your statements regarding depth of study in Chinese medicine. Respectfully, Sean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2008 Report Share Posted February 28, 2008 Jason, We have gone on and on about standards of practice over the years. We claim there is a standard here in this country for Chinese medicine (granted it could use improving) and that is the master's and now doctoral programs. You may quibble, but the standard for naturopaths is a four year degree from one of the accredited schools. So if you say you practice that way, you really should have an ND after your name that came from that source. Granted there are people like Todd (and possibly yourself), that spent a certain number of years in naturopathic school, bailed and then went to study CM integrating their previous education to some degree. You may put yourself into that category, but from the outside it doesn't look quite right. My undergrad was pre-med but I don't say I practice allopathic medicine. I know you have already qualified the degree to which you practice these other modalities, but I just wanted to further clarify my viewpoint. I am sure you have a broad knowledge base in the modalities that you bring into your clinic, and I don't get the sense that you are a person that likes to experiment on his patients. I would agree that any one point in Western medicine is not conceptually difficult, but on the whole it is voluminous. I mean, kudos to you if you've know the sum total of all the biochemistry that is out there. It is funny because I remember that biochemistry was Bob F's key differentiation between acupuncture and herbs. No argument from me, and I doubt from you. I don't really want to argue the merits of naturopathic medicine, but I think there are a number of things that differentiate it from Western medicine, not least of which is it's directive to treat the root cause of disease and not just the symptoms, just like CM. I think the differentiation between " naturopaths " and " naturopathic doctors " that Tim mentioned is not one that the majority of the population is likely to navigate effectively. There are also some that would rather be called naturopathic physicians to further complicate matters. The difference between " doctor " and " physician " is huge. The latter gets hospital privileges. As far as functional medicine is concerned, that was coined by Jeff Bland and since you like to go to the source, I figured you would have had some exposure to his stuff, and although Tim is right that IFM symposia are pricey (they are week long events), JB has done plenty of day seminars at lower cost, or you can get the Functional Medicine Updates for around $20/month. I am not arguing any one individuals ability to study a multitude of topics deeply, just in the blurring of standards for ones own benefit. I don't quite understand your reference to Dan B. He has obviously contributed a lot to the profession, but the rigor of his background in CM has been heavily debated on this list, as has his not wanting to conform to Wiseman terminology, the latter of which I was under the impression that you are a fierce proponent of. I don't know where the truth lies with his CM training, and don't care much. I definitely do not want to reopen any of those issues, but I do agree that a person can acquire many degrees, be an expert in those fields and be justified in advertising the fact. Peer review = good Sean _____ On Behalf Of Wednesday, February 27, 2008 8:13 PM RE: Re: clinical skill vs. academic prowess Sean, I have studied naturopathic and functional medicine for over 15 years, and have a four year degree in Alternative medicine (prior to TCM school) that focused mainly on such Western therapies. Granted I feel I am much better at CM and enjoy it much more, I feel that such a claim is not a stretch, especially since to this day, I spend sometimes hours a day researching and studying the subject. I do think that there is a lot to learn in both subjects and far from claiming mastery in any of them. (Hopefully not to offend anyone) but my experience is that naturopathic medicine (theory) has no where near the depth of CM. Its theory is primarily based on Western medicine and not that difficult if one understands Western physiology and pathology. Their therapies are much more straightforward as compared to CM. This is just my opinion and why I now spend the majority of my time in CM. For such reasons it is not my primary therapy. I only stated that I practice these other modalities to demonstrate that I am open to someone practicing multiple modalities. Finally one's ability to practice (or claim to practice) is directly related to experience and study. I feel I can hold my own in CM or the other therapies I mentioned. Not that it proves anything, but I have put more time in than you can shake a stick at. My learning includes much more than a few J. Bland seminars (which BTW I have never attended.) If you want to go after someone, go after those mail order schools that are pumping out " naturopathic degrees " left and right. At least they were 15 years ago. Finally, maybe I should have more accurately stated I practice " aspects of naturopathic and functional medicine. " I in no way embrace all of their ideas and philosophies. hence why I went into CM. -Jason > ---- > Sean Doherty <sean (AT) pointnatural (DOT) <sean%40pointnatural.com> com> > RE: Re: clinical skill vs. academic prowess > 28 Feb '08 00:43 > > [LINK: %40] > @ <%40> > [[LINK: %40] > @ <%40> ] On Behalf Of > .I also practice functional medicine, naturopathic medicine, and on > occasion, > yes " counseling. " If my previous posts on this topic are not clear I > will be happy to clarify. > > I am surprised by your stating that you practice naturopathic medicine, > Jason. I get annoyed with naturopaths that say they practice TCM with > little > training, so it seems the opposite should also be true. Sitting through a > bunch of Jeff Bland seminars and saying you do functional medicine is one > thing, but saying you practice a whole system like naturopathic medicine > seems incongruous to your statements regarding depth of study in Chinese > medicine. > > Respectfully, > > Sean > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2008 Report Share Posted February 28, 2008 Sean, you've made the point about naturophathy. However innuendos about 3rd person's credentials are not appropriate. I'm not sure where Dan Bensky's translation style fits in but I am very impressed with your style of argument though. ;-) As you probably know the Redwing List has a fascinating and informative thread going on about peer review. Doug " I don't know where the truth lies with his CM training, and don't care much. I definitely do not want to reopen any of those issues, but I do agree that a person can acquire many degrees, be an expert in those fields and be justified in advertising the fact. " > , " Sean Doherty " <sean wrote: > > Jason, > > We have gone on and on about standards of practice over the years. We claim > there is a standard here in this country for Chinese medicine (granted it > could use improving) and that is the master's and now doctoral programs. > You may quibble, but the standard for naturopaths is a four year degree from > one of the accredited schools. So if you say you practice that way, you > really should have an ND after your name that came from that source. > Granted there are people like Todd (and possibly yourself), that spent a > certain number of years in naturopathic school, bailed and then went to > study CM integrating their previous education to some degree. You may put > yourself into that category, but from the outside it doesn't look quite > right. My undergrad was pre-med but I don't say I practice allopathic > medicine. I know you have already qualified the degree to which you practice > these other modalities, but I just wanted to further clarify my viewpoint. > > > > I am sure you have a broad knowledge base in the modalities that you bring > into your clinic, and I don't get the sense that you are a person that likes > to experiment on his patients. I would agree that any one point in Western > medicine is not conceptually difficult, but on the whole it is voluminous. > I mean, kudos to you if you've know the sum total of all the biochemistry > that is out there. It is funny because I remember that biochemistry was Bob > F's key differentiation between acupuncture and herbs. No argument from me, > and I doubt from you. I don't really want to argue the merits of > naturopathic medicine, but I think there are a number of things that > differentiate it from Western medicine, not least of which is it's directive > to treat the root cause of disease and not just the symptoms, just like CM. > > > > > I think the differentiation between " naturopaths " and " naturopathic doctors " > that Tim mentioned is not one that the majority of the population is likely > to navigate effectively. There are also some that would rather be called > naturopathic physicians to further complicate matters. The difference > between " doctor " and " physician " is huge. The latter gets hospital > privileges. > > > > As far as functional medicine is concerned, that was coined by Jeff Bland > and since you like to go to the source, I figured you would have had some > exposure to his stuff, and although Tim is right that IFM symposia are > pricey (they are week long events), JB has done plenty of day seminars at > lower cost, or you can get the Functional Medicine Updates for around > $20/month. > > > > I am not arguing any one individuals ability to study a multitude of topics > deeply, just in the blurring of standards for ones own benefit. I don't > quite understand your reference to Dan B. He has obviously contributed a > lot to the profession, but the rigor of his background in CM has been > heavily debated on this list, as has his not wanting to conform to Wiseman > terminology, the latter of which I was under the impression that you are a > fierce proponent of. I don't know where the truth lies with his CM > training, and don't care much. I definitely do not want to reopen any of > those issues, but I do agree that a person can acquire many degrees, be an > expert in those fields and be justified in advertising the fact. > > > > Peer review = good > > > > Sean > > > > > > _____ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2008 Report Share Posted February 28, 2008 Sean, Those of us who wished to study Chinese medicine 25-30 years ago had a rough go of it, Dan included. All of us have had to continue our studies over the intervening years, and I can say that is what is important, to continue to grow and learn. I took a seminar at the Seattle Institute of Oriental Medicine with Volker Scheid two summers ago, and had an opportunity to observe Dan teaching pulse diagnosis in clinic. I had to say I was again very impressed with his knowledge base and abilities as a teacher. As far as 'conforming to Wiseman terminology', I don't think anyone wants anything so distasteful to happen. As a supporter of Wiseman terminology, I can say that the issue is having clear translation standards, dictionaries and glossaries available so that students and practitioners can understand the methodology and intent of translators and their works, and learn more in the process. It is not about forcing anyone to use a specific English term equivalent for a Chinese character. Nigel and Feng Ye were just the pioneers in championing these issues. On Feb 28, 2008, at 8:16 AM, Sean Doherty wrote: > I am not arguing any one individuals ability to study a multitude of > topics > deeply, just in the blurring of standards for ones own benefit. I > don't > quite understand your reference to Dan B. He has obviously > contributed a > lot to the profession, but the rigor of his background in CM has been > heavily debated on this list, as has his not wanting to conform to > Wiseman > terminology, the latter of which I was under the impression that you > are a > fierce proponent of. I don't know where the truth lies with his CM > training, and don't care much. I definitely do not want to reopen > any of > those issues, but I do agree that a person can acquire many degrees, > be an > expert in those fields and be justified in advertising the fact. Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2008 Report Share Posted February 28, 2008 Sean, I think you bring up important points in regard to certification that we all must contemplate as a profession and society. However, there are many issues in regard to who can do what, (i.e. practice acupuncture, dispense supplements, dispense Chinese herbs etc.) It is not black and white issue. But, just for the record, I do not, and have never, labeled myself as a ND / naturopath. I utilize techniques (etc) that are within my legal scope, as well as what I consider my personal ethical boundaries. My ¡°website¡± is hopefully clear on that. At a certain point (even with Chinese herbs) it becomes a personal (ethical) decision. Although this has little to do with our original topic, my reasons for not attending J. Bland seminars are not at all financial. There are many way to learn material. However for the record I think that functional medicine¡¯s ability to think about the root cause and the relationships that cause disease are superior to naturopathic medicine. Its thinking method (once one gets in deep) is very akin to CM. Hence my attraction to it and why I started the Functional Medicine Discussion Group (). I suggest we continue this conversation there because I feel we are getting farther and farther off topic. Finally, I think your comments about Dan and translation have already been addressed by others. Your thinking around this issue, IMHO, deserves refinement. I was also unclear, what am I a fierce proponent of??? (I really think people make far too many assumptions about what people believe or not) ¨C Hence we all could better work our clarity of writing, thought, and communication. Respectfully, -Jason > ---- > Sean Doherty <sean > RE: Re: clinical skill vs. academic prowess > 28 Feb '08 16:16 > > Jason, > > We have gone on and on about standards of practice over the years. We > claim > there is a standard here in this country for Chinese medicine (granted it > could use improving) and that is the master's and now doctoral programs. > You may quibble, but the standard for naturopaths is a four year degree > from > one of the accredited schools. So if you say you practice that way, you > really should have an ND after your name that came from that source. > Granted there are people like Todd (and possibly yourself), that spent a > certain number of years in naturopathic school, bailed and then went to > study CM integrating their previous education to some degree. You may put > yourself into that category, but from the outside it doesn't look quite > right. My undergrad was pre-med but I don't say I practice allopathic > medicine. I know you have already qualified the degree to which you > practice > these other modalities, but I just wanted to further clarify my > viewpoint. > > I am sure you have a broad knowledge base in the modalities that you > bring > into your clinic, and I don't get the sense that you are a person that > likes > to experiment on his patients. I would agree that any one point in > Western > medicine is not conceptually difficult, but on the whole it is > voluminous. > I mean, kudos to you if you've know the sum total of all the biochemistry > that is out there. It is funny because I remember that biochemistry was > Bob > F's key differentiation between acupuncture and herbs. No argument from > me, > and I doubt from you. I don't really want to argue the merits of > naturopathic medicine, but I think there are a number of things that > differentiate it from Western medicine, not least of which is it's > directive > to treat the root cause of disease and not just the symptoms, just like > CM. > > I think the differentiation between " naturopaths " and " naturopathic > doctors " > that Tim mentioned is not one that the majority of the population is > likely > to navigate effectively. There are also some that would rather be called > naturopathic physicians to further complicate matters. The difference > between " doctor " and " physician " is huge. The latter gets hospital > privileges. > > As far as functional medicine is concerned, that was coined by Jeff Bland > and since you like to go to the source, I figured you would have had some > exposure to his stuff, and although Tim is right that IFM symposia are > pricey (they are week long events), JB has done plenty of day seminars at > lower cost, or you can get the Functional Medicine Updates for around > $20/month. > > I am not arguing any one individuals ability to study a multitude of > topics > deeply, just in the blurring of standards for ones own benefit. I don't > quite understand your reference to Dan B. He has obviously contributed a > lot to the profession, but the rigor of his background in CM has been > heavily debated on this list, as has his not wanting to conform to > Wiseman > terminology, the latter of which I was under the impression that you are > a > fierce proponent of. I don't know where the truth lies with his CM > training, and don't care much. I definitely do not want to reopen any of > those issues, but I do agree that a person can acquire many degrees, be > an > expert in those fields and be justified in advertising the fact. > > Peer review = good > > Sean > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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