Shang Han & Wen Bin

March 8, 2008

Geoff,

I have many questions about external wind attacks also.

1. In what circumstances should we tonify the body during an EPF attack,

with which herbs and which nutrients?

Of course, this is a general question (not taking into account individual

constitutions)

If an herb or nutrient is known to raise immunity, why do we wait until the

signs/ symptoms have cleared to start using something like " Yu ping feng

san " , which contains Huang qi and Bai zhu, which are known to raise immunity

and Fang feng, which is an anti-viral agent? Huang qi is known to be a

potent prophylactic against the common cold (wind-cold or wind-heat,

non-specific), but why don't we use it during an attack?

Do you think it would really build up the pathogen as well as the wei qi?

Would it hold the pathogen inside the gates, so to speak?

How come we don't traditionally fortify ourselves during an EPF attack with

Ling zhi, Shiitake, Maitake and Oyster mushrooms, which have beta-glucans

which activate macrophages and T-cells to destroy foreign bodies (bacteria,

viruses, tumor cells)?

What's the role of Vitamin C and Zinc in fighting off infections? Vitamin C

is said to be energetically cold, does that mean it should not be used

during wind-heat attacks? Zinc is a KD tonic; what is its role/ definition

in our medicine?

Huang lian and Da suan (garlic) are both strong anti-viral agents, but we

don't add these to our external wind attack formulas. (They fight toxins,

boils etc). The former is thermally cold, the latter hot.

Huang lian contains berberine, which activates macrophages, responsible for

destroying bacteria, viruses and tumor cells. How come this isn't added to

the traditional wind-heat formulas?

Garlic has anti-microbial, anti-bacterial, anti-fungal, anti-parasitic,

anti-viral and according to bio-research, has significant anti-inflammatory

activity (garlic's inhibition of the formation of inflammatory compounds).

Yet, it is heating. How come this isn't in the traditional wind-cold

formulas?

Ginger is also anti-inflammatory, yet it is warming. It is analgesic,

antibiotic and basal temperature regulating (harmonizes ying/wei qi?). It's

a diaphoretic, hence its use in wind-cold but not wind-heat formulas.

Gui zhi is for wind-cold (deficiency type) with muscle aches and chills. It

is anti-spasmodic, so this makes sense. Gui zhi oil has also exhibited

anti-viral and anti-bacterial activity in research studies.

Jin yin hua (Yin qiao san) is anti-bacterial, some say anti-viral,

anti-pyretic and anti-inflammatory.

So, this also makes sense in relation to how we use it for wind-heat toxin.

2. Someone on the list named the old adage of " feeding a cold, but starving

a fever "

" Dr Van den Brink speculated that the immune response may be an

energy-saving tactic by the body, responding immediately to bacterial

infections, but waiting until more energy is made available before taking on

viruses. " http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1755642.stm

This is a very important concept, but overlooked in our treatments...

Sounds like Chicken soup may be good for certain kinds of external attacks,

but which ones? (Shang han: wind strike, cold strike or Wen bing:

wind-warmth, spring warmth, summerheat warmth, damp warmth, autumn dryness,

latent summerheat, winter warmth and warm toxicity)

Traditionally in China, do they eat a lot of jook for wind-colds, but fast

for wind-heats?

For Gui zhi tang, don't you traditionally eat jook after the decoction and

then cover up?

How come no jook prescription for wind-heat?

3. Most of the wind-attacks that we see are due to viral infections,

(mainly rhinoviruses (30-50% of common colds)).

Influenza viruses come in 3 types, A and B are epidemic, C is not:

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/viruses/types.htm

Is there any correlation in our medicine between wind-cold/ wind-heat and

common cold/ influenza?

I know the signs/symptoms for both disciplines...

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/coldflu.htm

Flus seem to be more like wind-heat (higher fever) or else qi level/ yang

ming level heat,

with severe body aches (more wind-cold sign?) and fatigue (qi def?)

Colds seem to be more wind-cold tai-yang stage (chills, runny nose, cough)

What have you found to be true?

Does it not matter what kind of virus is attacking, but how our body reacts

to it?

I think there is a correlation between types of virus and types and order of

signs/symptoms.

I've seen that in the last 2 outbreaks this winter.

K.

On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 2:17 PM, G Hudson <crudo20 wrote:

> That's interesting for sure! That would be one for the column of a

> more global shift in the pathogens, rather than local. Yin Qiao long

> was a great standby - worked for almost everyone with a cold, and a

> few years back it seemed like 98% of people had Wen Bing. I believe

> it was Todd a long time ago that turned me on to Jing Fang Bai Du San,

> and it was what I used for WC attacks when Yin Qiao wasn't

> appropriate. It will be interesting to see when it shifts back.

> Don't those Daoist calendars have predictions on these shifts?

>

> My daughter, then 7 month pregnant wife, and then myself, contracted

> this current flu - and it stunk! I wasn't sure what to use for my

> wife since most formulas I could think of were contraindicated for

> pregnancy. So I made her ginger tea. I took big doses of JFBDS -

> about 20-30 at a time, several times a day, and it would just get me

> slightly warm, and barely a sweat. My wife gave me some tylenol, and

> just one extra-strength would give me a massive sweat and some relief

> until it wore off. After a couple of days I got fed up and through

> the fog thought - hmm - how about Gui Zhi Tang? Took it, hit the gym,

> myalgia and all, and did my best to run and walk the track, and a

> couple of forms, and then it seemed to turn the tide very quickly.

> Still dealing with crud, but having once thought it was a bit of a

> waste to spend two whole quarters studying the SHL - it now seems to

> make clear sense of when to use it. Now I truly understand 'aversion

> to cold / wind' (going outside for even a moment would cause strong

> shanking) and 'shaking chills' and 'not improving after sweating'

> (ying wei disharmony). I just didn't see those symptoms in the past

> with WH disorders.

>

> Cheers

> Geoff

>

> --- In

<%40>,

>

> <zrosenbe wrote:

> >

> > Geoff,

> > Oddly, I've noticed the same thing. A lot more wind/strike, cold

> > damage cases, less wen bing.

>

--

aka Mu bong Lim

Father of Bhakti

The Four Reliances:

Do not rely upon the individual, but rely upon the teaching.

As far as teachings go, do not rely upon the words alone, but rely upon the

meaning that underlies them.

Regarding the meaning, do not rely upon the provisional meaning alone, but

rely upon the definitive meaning.

And regarding the definitive meaning, do not rely upon ordinary

consciousness, but rely upon wisdom awareness.

March 8, 2008

John,

One can use almost any of the tonifying herbs during External attacks if the

condition warrants it (some deficiency) and the formula is balanced.

I think analyzing the medicinals in terms of Western pharmacology is a

slippery slope, as evidenced in the anti-viral trends that came out of China

in the 80's. IMO, these methods are inferior to straight solid CM theory.

-Jason

_____

On Behalf Of

Saturday, March 08, 2008 5:31 AM

Re: Shang Han & Wen Bin